A. Nothing at all -- outside of the name; and this was not even correct.
Q. What happened on Wednesday, the 9th of July?
A. In the forenoon, Dr. Marx came to the office and said approximately the following: I was at the hospital to see Engert. His state of health has deteriorated to such an extent that I am anxious to know what will happen now. I also discussed this with the head physician, Dr. Kraetzer. She told me you observed that very well, Dr. Marx; that is correct.
Q. Did you remember that so well -- and why?
A. I remembered it quite well - first, I notice immediately -I immediately pay attention when somebody speaks about a disease or a sickness, because that is my speciality; and , moreover, I was amused because I noticed that Dr. Marx seemed to be obviously proud that he was such a good observer.
Q. On that morning did you hear the name of Dr. Kraetzer for the first time?
A. Yes.
Q. Now, please tell us what happened in the evening of the 9th of July.
A. Dr. Marx came from the office of an American gentleman to the office of the secretaries and said: "Now I am under the impression that the German physicians are more holy than the Pope. They considered that Engert is able to appear in the trial, while the Americans have for a long time been of the opinion that he was not able to stand a trial. I shall express that very clearly in the next session. I considered the American point of view more important than the German." He then handed to the secretary Frau Wieber --- gave to the secretary copies of these questionnaires. In so saying he handed the questionnaires to Frau Wieber which he held in his hand.
Q. And then what happened?
A. I replied thereupon, "But, Dr. Marx, you can't do that. You will put yourself in an embarrassing position if before the same Court on the one hand you defend German physicians and on the other hand you lower them."
Q. "That was Dr. Marx' re-action to your objection?
A. He said: "Leave that up to me". He would like to go to see Dr. Kraetzer that very same day still in order to ask her whether the expert opinion would not have to be supplemented. Unfortunately, however, he did not have the time to do so. Thereupon, I replied quite spontaneously that I had intended for a long time to visit the head nurse at the city hospital. On the occasion of such a visit I could be introduced to Dr. Kraetzer and ask her whether on the basis of the deterioration of the state of health of Engert the expert opinion could not be brought up to date. Dr. Marx said jokingly: "Well, nothing will come out of that." Dr. Marx assumed that I would go to see Frau Kraetzer only in order to hear whether that possibility perhaps existed.
Q. Did Dr. Marx listen to you attentively?
A. No, I do not think so. He was very much preoccupied and immediately returned to his work with which he was over-burdened during the last days since he had to complete the trial brief and the final plea. Therefore, he had become quite absent minded and it was difficult for him to concentrate. He frequently made changes in his final plea and was obviously nervous.
Q. Is it a fact that when Dr. Marx told you that he would prefer to go to see Dr. Kraetzer that very evening in order to ask for a supplement of the expert opinion, did you think that he meant only on the basis of the newest of the opinions?
MR. LAFOLLETTE: Please, please, if your Honors please. I don't think it makes any difference, the questions seems to be here and the answers are there, but I do want to object that this is a completely leading question.
THE PRESIDENT: It calls for the opinion of this witness as to what was in the mind of the respondent Marx. That is a question for this Tribunal to decide on the basis of facts and we can give little or no weight to the expressed opinion of one witness and to what another witness was thinking about.
BY DR. NATH SCHREIBER:
Q. Well, let us come back to your conversation with Dr. Marx. Was your conversation now concluded and did you leave the room?
A. The discussion in regard to Engert had been concluded but I left the room even faster than I thought I did. A brief inter-change had taken place between Dr. Marx and me but that had nothing to do with the Engert case. Dr. Marx had made a very tactless and derogatory remark which put me as a woman in a very embarrassing position and insulted me very much. Therefore, please spare my going into the matter. Thereupon, I got up in a rage and said to Dr. Marx: "How tactless , Dr. Marx. Shame on you." I gathered up the questionnaires from the table and immediately left the room.
Q. Did you not say to Dr. Marx: "Well just to let you know I am going to Dr. Kraetzer and I am taking along the questionnaires?"
A. No, I was too embarrassed and too angry to do that.
Q. Did Dr. Marx see that you took along the questionnaires?
A. I believe I am quite sure he did not see it. He had already returned to his work and he was especially absent minded and confused on that evening.
Q. During that discussion did Dr. Marx give you the order to go to Dr. Kraetzer?
A. No, one could not speak about an order.
Q. During that whole conversation was the name of Dr. Gerstacker mentioned?
A. No, the name of Dr. Gerstacker was not mentioned.
C. Was that name known to you?
A. No, on that day I had not heard of it at all yet.
Q. What did you do with the questionnaires?
A. I put them into my large hand bag which I always carry with me.
Q. What happened then?
A. I telephoned to the hospital and found out that the head nurse was no longer at the hospital on that evening and I asked to have an appointment made for me with her for the next morning. The next morning I went to see the head nurse. I introduced myself as nurse Karin Huppertz from Berlin and told her she must know me.
THE PRESIDENT: I wonder if I understood you correctly. Did you introduce yourself as a nurse or sister?
WITNESS: I used the German word "schwester".
THE PRESIDENT: Thank you.
WITNESS: We do not have two different expressions for nurse and sister. They are the same words in German.
DR. NATH SCHREIBER:
I beg your pardon, I believe there is a mistake in the translation. No, she did not. I beg your pardon.
THE PRESIDENT: The word has been explained. Go ahead.
WITNESS:
A. I said: you must know me from the Journal "Die Deutsche Schwester", I believe we also telephoned each other once on the occasion of a visit that we paid to a mutual acquaintance, that I had intended during the whole time to pay a visit to her once, that I had been in Nurnberg for sometime, first I had been summoned as a witness and so far I had not been examined, and now I was helping privately on the basis of my knowledge of the language, in the office of a lawyer and I helped anybody else who needed my help, and that was the reason I now happened to come to her. There was again a case in which I thought that I could help to mediate. Therefore, I requested her to go with me to Dr. Kraetzer and to introduce me to her, that I was concerned with one of her patients. I showed the questionnaire to her and I showed her how they had been filled out so far and told her that perhaps the possibility existed to speak to the head physician Frau Dr. Kraetzer, to consult with her and to discuss whether on the basis of the deterioration of the condition of Engert's health a change in the expert opinion was perhaps possible.
The Americans considered him unable to appear in the trial.
Q. Frau Huppertz you just stated that you took out the questionnaires. Did you see them for the first time on that occasion?
A. Yes, I did.
Q. Did you not take them out of your bag in the apartment on the evening before?
A. No, I did not.
C. In the questionnaires did you notice when you took them out anything especially?
A. Yes, I noticed that the first page was a copy which the secretary had made without the answers filled in and the second pages were the original pages with the signature. Those sheets of the questionnaires were fastened together with a staple. Each questionnaire consisted of a single two sheets. They were not two loose sheets in each case. There were two questionnaires, one signed by Dr. Kraetzer and the other by Dr. Gerstacker and here I saw the name of Dr. Gerstacker for the first time.
Q. What thoughts were passing through your mind when you saw the questionnaires?
MR. LAFOLLETTE: I object, Your honors.
THE PRESIDENT: She may answer, it may be relevant in mitigation.
WITNESS:
A. I thought that the new secretary by error had taken a copy of the first pages and had stapled them erroneously to the original page with the signature and that the first pages of the original she might perhaps even have thrown into the waste paper basket.
BY DR. NATH SCHREIBER:
Q. Did you know the date of the questionnaires?
A. No, I did not. I said that was the first time I saw them. I still do not know the date to this very day but at that time, of course, I was under the impression that the questionnaires were at least six to eight days old due to the channels that they had gone through.
Q. Did you now go to Dr. Kraetzer with the head nurse?
A. We tried to find Dr. Kraetzer in different wards of the hospital but we couldn't find her and I believe thereupon the head nurse made the suggestion, but I do not remember that for certain, to go to see Dr. Gerstacker too.
THE PRESIDENT: Just a moment. We will take a fifteen minute recess.
(A short recess was taken.)
THE MARSHAL: The Tribunal is again in session.
BY DR. NATH-SCHREIBER:
Q: Frau Huppertz, did you know that Dr. Marx had a very excited argument with Dr. Gerstacker on the 28th June 1947?
A: No, I had no idea of that; otherwise I certainly would not have gone there. I had no idea of the whole Engert case.
Q: When you came to Dr. Gerstacker how did the chief nurse introduce you?
A: As sister, Schwester, Karin Huppertz from Berlin who is at present staying in Nurnberg, who was asked for as a witness at the doctors' trial and who had not yet been examined and also that by reason of my linguistic knowledge, quite privately and voluntarily, I was helping in the office of a lawyer for purely humane reasons. And that in the same way I was now trying to work for a cause to mitigate and help, if that were possible. It was the Engert case with which I was concerned. When that name had been mentioned Dr. Gerstacker immediately became very excited and aggressive. What was the matter again there? He obviously felt insulted and in some way bypassed. I told him that Dr. Marx on the evening before had been called to see a gentleman of the court or an American gentleman. May I interpolate here that Dr. Gerstacker said it exactly like that yesterday. There must have been a mistake in translation, for the interpreter said "an important gentleman". That work "wichtig" important gentleman of the court was not used. From that moment onwards Dr. Gerstacker was so much excited that I gained the impression that he only saw Dr. Marx in back of me.
I gave an account of the events of the previous day -
THE PRESIDENT: Will you just tell us what the conversation was. That is the material part of the case as far as you arc concerned. What was the conversation between you?
THE WITNESS: That that gentleman had told him that the German doctors had said that the defendant Engert would be able to stand his trial, whereas the American doctors had been saying for a long time that he was not able to stand trial. Dr. Gerstacker frequently interrupted me in an excited tone of voice. I then told him that I quite spontaneously of my own initiative had offered Dr. Marx to talk with the German woman doctors through contact being made by the head nurse, on whom I had wanted to call anyhow. For on account of the deterioration of Engert's state of health which had been mentioned in the morning, perhaps there was a possibility to change or supplement the expert opinion, for surely the questionnaires were a few days old. Dr. Gerstacker then said that a week ago he had given a detailed expert opinion, and the answers to the questions in the questionnaire were based on that expert opinion. He could not testify one way today and another way tomorrow. I was very surprised, indeed, that an expert opinion had already been given and said immediately it was a matter of course, he couldn't possibly do that. I had not known that an expert opinion had already been given by him. I myself was now very annoyed to have involved myself into this situation with that unpleasant doctor. I said to Dr. Gerstacker, "but I can't understand Dr. Marx, either, because if he knew of the expert opinion he should have stopped my kind plan of interfering here voluntarily and and quite from the human point of view.
That is a matter of course that if you have already given such an expert opinion you cannot change your opinion."
Q: Were you very excited at that moment?
A: Yes, I was excited inside, naturally I had to try, vis-a-vis Dr. Gerstacker, who was even more excited, to remain calm.
Q: But earlier you said that Dr. Marx had known nothing about the conversation with Dr. Gorstacker and that the name had not been mentioned at all on the evening before
A: Dr. Marx had no idea that I was going to Dr. Gerstacker.
Q: Well, how in that case could you say to Dr. Gerstacker that you could not understand Dr. Marx that if he didn't know at all that you were going to Dr. Gerstacker?
A: In my excitement I went too far, because I had no idea of all the events that had gone before. But I am convinced that if Dr. Marx had known that I, instead of going to Dr. Kraetzer would go straight to Dr. Gorstacker, he would have stopped me energetically and would, in fact, have prohibited my visit.
Q: How did that conversation continue?
A: I said to Dr. Gorstacker, "As I have come to the hospital, I have something to ask of you. A new secretary of Dr. Marx' has copied the questionnaire and as I saw today she has stapled them together incorrectly. As I do not know whether the original sheets will still be found at the office or whether perhaps who has destroyed the I would ask you to put your "yes" from the first sheet once again into the same places where the first three times "yes" appeared on the first sheet." Dr. Gerstacker again became indignant and aaid that was another attempt at taking him by surprise, and that had been arranged between Dr. Marx, the secretary, and myself.
He, Dr. Gerstackcr, believed that that was a punishable offense to take the sheets apart and to staple them together incorrectly. I felt very upset that Dr. Gerstackcr should interpret the matter in this way. I told him that it was merely a mistake made by h secretary who was not trained in legal matters, who was now in Dr. Marx' office, and who certainly had not acted with any evil intention when she had separated the sheets and had stapled them together differently. Br. Marx had no idea whatsoever about this occurrence. I tried to explain to Dr. Gerstacker that he was having blank sheets before him. He was to put his "yes" back, and if he did so everything would be in order again as it had been before. The head nurse, who had accompanied me, supported me. Dr. Gerstacker then filled in on the first sheet of the questionnaire the word "yes" three times again. Then I said I would certainly never again do anybody a favor. I am trying to intermediate hero in a matter which does not concern me in any way whatsoever, a matter in which I intended to help as a private individual and from a human point of view. And now he was being so rude to me and now I was in trouble. From that expression which I used, Dr. Gerstacker had to deduct quite clearly that I had come to him simply as a private human being --
THE PRESIDENT: You needn't tell me what his conclusions were. Just tell what the conversation was. You have just been telling us what Dr. Gerstacker must have understood from what you said.
THE WITNESS: I then said to Dr. Gerstacker, really, I had also meant to go to see Dr. Kraetzer with the sheet, but I won't go to her now.
I might have the same reception there as I had with you.
Dr. Marx may see how he gets his questionnaires back if they should really have been destroyed at the office. Thereupon, Dr. Gerstacker said, "You may go to see Frau Dr. Kraetzer. She is not as unpleasant as I am." Perhaps he meant rude. I do not believe he said "unpleasant". We then shook hands. He apologized to me for having been so rude and having become so aggressive. We shook hands and said good-bye to each other.
Q: During the course of that conversation did you hear for the first time that Dr. Gerstacker had given a detailed expert opinion?
A: Yes, for the first time. Until then I had known nothing about it.
Q: For a layman too it is a known fact that a picture of a disease may change and worsen in a few days, in face, in a few hours. Why then did you say to Dr. Gerstacker, if a week ago you gave a detailed written expert opinion, you cannot make a change today? In that case, if the state of health had actually deteriorated he could have changed his opinion.
A: I had become very excited myself and my only interest was, as quickly as possible, to calm down the terribly excited man and to show him that I wanted nothing else from him. From the purely professional point of view a doctor must, in fact, change and throw over his own expert opinion if, in fact, a deterioration has occurred, but naturally only an the basis of a thorough medical examination.
Q: You have told us that during that conversation with Dr. Gerstacker you mentioned that Dr. Marx had been called to a gentleman of the court or to an American gentleman. By that were you thinking of this Tribunal?
A: That would never have occurred to me and that would have been impossible. It was evening at about seven o'clock when Dr. Marx came from the office and the secretaries had long been finished.
Q: What did you mean to say by those words?
A: What I meant to say was that Dr. Marx had come from some American office. I may point out that in the German language the word "court" is used too when it means to refer to some small office of the court. The German says, "I am going to court," or, "I have come from court", when he has just come from some office there.
THE PRESIDENT: Witness, I don't recollect myself that you told us what happened when Dr. Marx was called before a gentleman of the court. What did you tell them had happened when the gentleman talked to Dr. Marx?
A: That is altogether unknown to me.
THE PRESIDENT: I am asking you what you told them as the hospital. I understood you to say that you told the doctor that Marx had been called before a gentleman of the court. Wasn't that right?
THE WITNESS: Yes.
THE PRESIDENT: What did the gentleman of the court say to Dr. Marx, according to your report to the doctor?
THE WITNESS: I only knew that Dr. Marx had brought along the two questionnaires.
BY DR. NATH:
Q: During that conversation with Dr. Gerstacker did you say that Dr. Marx had been called before the court and there, in a severe tone, he had been told about the difference between the expert opinions of the doctors?
A: Certainly I didn't mean it like that, but neither of us weighed each word and I don't remember the remark in that form.
Q: Now we will proceed. Together with the head nurse you went to see Frau Dr. Kraetzer. How were you introduced to her and what did you discuss with her?
A: I was introduced to Dr. Kraetzer as Sister Karin Huppertz from Berlin. I believe the same words were added that were added when I was introduced to Dr. Gerstacker, that is to say, the reasons for my being in Nurnberg were explained. I said to Frau Dr. Kraetzer, the alleged reason for my visit had already been settled but a disaster had occurred to her questionnaire. A new secretary had exchanged the sheets and I did not know whether, on my return to the office, I would find those questionnaires or whether perhaps they might have been thrown into the wastepaper basket and thus might have been lost. Would she please be kind enough to save the office another visit to the hospital by putting her "yes" once again in the three places which were provided for it just as it had been before. She did so. I thanked her and said goodbye to her.
THE PRESIDENT: May I ask about that? Was the first shoot removed from both reports of the two German doctors?
THE WITNESS: Yes, it was, but it had been restapled firmly.
BY DR. NATH:
Q: Then the conversations were finished? What did you then do with the questionnaires?
A: I cannot remember at all myself. Frau Dr. Schultz and Dr. Marx' first secretary, Frau Breger, have now told me, however -
THE PRESIDENT: We want to know what your own personal knowledge was, please.
THE WITNESS: I have no knowledge.
BY DR. NATH:
Q: May I ask you a question? Do you remember this, that you took the questionnaires to the secretaries' office?
A: I am supposed to have?
Q: No, not what you are supposed to have. Can you remember what you did?
A: Yes; I did come back with the questionnaires and I put them there on the table.
Q: I didn't quite understand that. Was that on the table of the secretaries or was that in the room of Dr. Marx?
A: It was in the room of the secretaries. I put it on the same table from whore I bad removed them on the previous evening.
Q: As for the details of your conversation with Dr. Gerstackcr and Dr. Kraetzer, did you tell Dr. Marx about them?
A: I don't believe so, for Dr. Marx wasn't there at the moment I came back and during those days we were deep in work.
Q: When, later, Dr. Marx, on account of this indictment -- perhaps also on account of some other circumstance - I don't know- heard of your conversation with Dr. Gerstackcr, what did he say to then?
A: He was furious and said, "If I had known that, if I had known that you would go to Dr. Gerstackcr, I would have murdered you". Anyway that was the meaning of it, at least.
Q: Now I would like to ask you this question. You have told us that Dr. Marx had not requested you to call on Dr. Kraetzer and Dr. Gerstacker.
Why did you go all the same?
A: Originally I had only meant to go and see Kraetzer. After all, I didn't know anything about the existence of Dr. Gerstacker. That only resulted from the fact that we were unable to find Dr. Kraetzer. The reason I wanted to see Frau Dr. Kraetzer was this: When Dr. Marx came into the room and said that the German doctors consider that the defendant Engert was able to stand his trial, whereas the American doctors rejected that view, the difference of opinion annoyed me and irritated me. From my eight years of work in New York I know American doctors. I know how excellent they are.
THE PRESIDENT: It is entirely immaterial for you to go into your knowledge of American doctors. The Court knows that they differ greatly in individual cases throughout the world. We have no need to know about that.
A: (Continuing): On the morning of the same day I had heard that Herr Engert's state of health had deteriorated considerably and I immediately decided that I would go to see Frau Dr. Kraetzer, and to talk to her, as one woman to another, and see whether it would not be possible on account of that obvious deterioration, to change her opinion.
Q. Frau Hupportz, are you accustomed to working that independently?
A. For a great many years I have always worked very independantly.
Q. Are you a very active person?
A. Yes, unfortunately much too much so.
Q. Why did you chose the profession of a nurse?
THE PRESIDENT: I think we will not go into that.
DR. NATH-SCHREIDER: I have no further questions.
THE PRESIDENT: You have no further questions?
DR. ORTH: No questions.
THE PRESIDENT: Cross examination.
CROSS EXAMINATION.
BY MR. LAFOLLETTE:
Q. Now who took you to Dr. Gerstacker's Office?
A. The chief nurse of the hospital, Johanna Ernst, Diaconiss.
Q. And when you wont to the hospital you had at least four sheets of paper with you, didn't you? Let me hand you these exhibits 3 and 4?
(The documents are handed to the witness.)
A. Thank you.
Q. Is that what you went to the hospital with?
A. Yes, it seems tone that those are the sheets.
Q. If you never heard of Dr. Gerstacker, how did you got to Dr. Gerstacker's office?
A. In the morning, when I was with the chief nurse I had taken these sheets from my handbag and I had shown then to her to make it clear to her what the business was.
Q. And you say that you never knew until you got to talk to Dr. Gerstacker that he had given an expert opinion in this case?
A. That is correct.
Q. What did you think Dr. Marx was talking about the night before?
A. In the morning I had heard that at the court where the state of health of Engert had already been discussed.
Q. I am talking about the night before. You went out to see Dr. Gerstacker when Dr. Marx said the German doctors wore more Popish than the Pope; what kind of an opinion did you think he was speaking of?
A. I did not quite get that.
Q. Maybe if you would put on your earphones, you would. I asked you when Dr. Marx on the 9th of July came from the American gentlemen in such an angry manner from the office of the Secretary General and said that the German doctors were more Popish than the Pope; what kind of an opinion did you think he was talking about that the German doctors had made.
A. Only the questionnaire, that is what I saw.
THE PRESIDENT: May I advice you that the questionnaire was an expert opinion by the medical physicians, it itself was an expert opinion.
THE WITNESS: Yes.
THE PRESIDENT: You knew about that?
THE WITNESS: I saw that at the moment when Dr. Marx brought it into the office.
BY MR. LAFOLLETTE:
Q. How, when you went into Dr. Gerstacker's office you asked him to change the answers on this questionnaire that you had with you - Exhibit 4; did you have that with you?
A. Only after I had already spoken to Dr. Gerstacker did I take this questionnaire out. Before I merely asked him whether possibly on account of the deterioration of Engert's state of health a change could be made.
Q. Yes, but I thought you said that you merely wanted him to fill these out because maybe a new secretary had lost the originals; now which was it?
A. That is what I said after I had shown the questionnaires to him. First of all when I was with Dr. Gerstacker I had these questionnaires in my handbag.
Q. Yes. Now if you wanted him to change them, maybe you would tell me how you know when you asked him to change than that they wore blank if you had never seen them before?
A. I said before that when I was with the head nurse I took them out and I had shown them to the chief nurse and that was when I saw the name of Gerstackcr for the first time.
Q. Gerstackcr is on the second sheet, isn't it?
A. Yes.
Q. How in order to look at the second sheet, you turned the first sheet back maybe?
A. Yes, yes.
Q. But when you went to see Dr. Gerstacker to ask him to change it, you did not know then that you had a blank sheet which you just looked at with the head nurse before you went to his office as the first sheet; is that what I understand now?
A. I know that I had it in my handbag.
Q. Did you know it was blank when you went to Dr. Gerstacker's office? Answer yes or no.
A. Yes, I saw that when I was in the room with the head nurse.
Q. So, when you asked Dr. Gerstackcr to change his opinion at that time you did not go there for the purpose of having it filled in because the original had been lost and you were afraid something had happened to it naturally. Well, what did you go there for? You didn't go there just because you wanted the original filled out, which you thought was lost, just like before?
A. As I had before intended to talk to Frau Dr. Kraetzer and because Dr. Kraetzer could not be found, I wanted to speak to Dr. Gerstacker to see whether it was possible, on account of the fact that Engert's health had deteriorated, and I know of the deterioration, that then it would be possible to make a change after a now medical examination.
Q. Yes. And now didn't you want him to change the original that he signed by striking out "Ja" and putting in "Nein"?