He, Dr. Gerstackcr, believed that that was a punishable offense to take the sheets apart and to staple them together incorrectly. I felt very upset that Dr. Gerstackcr should interpret the matter in this way. I told him that it was merely a mistake made by h secretary who was not trained in legal matters, who was now in Dr. Marx' office, and who certainly had not acted with any evil intention when she had separated the sheets and had stapled them together differently. Br. Marx had no idea whatsoever about this occurrence. I tried to explain to Dr. Gerstacker that he was having blank sheets before him. He was to put his "yes" back, and if he did so everything would be in order again as it had been before. The head nurse, who had accompanied me, supported me. Dr. Gerstacker then filled in on the first sheet of the questionnaire the word "yes" three times again. Then I said I would certainly never again do anybody a favor. I am trying to intermediate hero in a matter which does not concern me in any way whatsoever, a matter in which I intended to help as a private individual and from a human point of view. And now he was being so rude to me and now I was in trouble. From that expression which I used, Dr. Gerstacker had to deduct quite clearly that I had come to him simply as a private human being --
THE PRESIDENT: You needn't tell me what his conclusions were. Just tell what the conversation was. You have just been telling us what Dr. Gerstacker must have understood from what you said.
THE WITNESS: I then said to Dr. Gerstacker, really, I had also meant to go to see Dr. Kraetzer with the sheet, but I won't go to her now.
I might have the same reception there as I had with you.
Dr. Marx may see how he gets his questionnaires back if they should really have been destroyed at the office. Thereupon, Dr. Gerstacker said, "You may go to see Frau Dr. Kraetzer. She is not as unpleasant as I am." Perhaps he meant rude. I do not believe he said "unpleasant". We then shook hands. He apologized to me for having been so rude and having become so aggressive. We shook hands and said good-bye to each other.
Q: During the course of that conversation did you hear for the first time that Dr. Gerstacker had given a detailed expert opinion?
A: Yes, for the first time. Until then I had known nothing about it.
Q: For a layman too it is a known fact that a picture of a disease may change and worsen in a few days, in face, in a few hours. Why then did you say to Dr. Gerstacker, if a week ago you gave a detailed written expert opinion, you cannot make a change today? In that case, if the state of health had actually deteriorated he could have changed his opinion.
A: I had become very excited myself and my only interest was, as quickly as possible, to calm down the terribly excited man and to show him that I wanted nothing else from him. From the purely professional point of view a doctor must, in fact, change and throw over his own expert opinion if, in fact, a deterioration has occurred, but naturally only an the basis of a thorough medical examination.
Q: You have told us that during that conversation with Dr. Gerstacker you mentioned that Dr. Marx had been called to a gentleman of the court or to an American gentleman. By that were you thinking of this Tribunal?
A: That would never have occurred to me and that would have been impossible. It was evening at about seven o'clock when Dr. Marx came from the office and the secretaries had long been finished.
Q: What did you mean to say by those words?
A: What I meant to say was that Dr. Marx had come from some American office. I may point out that in the German language the word "court" is used too when it means to refer to some small office of the court. The German says, "I am going to court," or, "I have come from court", when he has just come from some office there.
THE PRESIDENT: Witness, I don't recollect myself that you told us what happened when Dr. Marx was called before a gentleman of the court. What did you tell them had happened when the gentleman talked to Dr. Marx?
A: That is altogether unknown to me.
THE PRESIDENT: I am asking you what you told them as the hospital. I understood you to say that you told the doctor that Marx had been called before a gentleman of the court. Wasn't that right?
THE WITNESS: Yes.
THE PRESIDENT: What did the gentleman of the court say to Dr. Marx, according to your report to the doctor?
THE WITNESS: I only knew that Dr. Marx had brought along the two questionnaires.
BY DR. NATH:
Q: During that conversation with Dr. Gerstacker did you say that Dr. Marx had been called before the court and there, in a severe tone, he had been told about the difference between the expert opinions of the doctors?
A: Certainly I didn't mean it like that, but neither of us weighed each word and I don't remember the remark in that form.
Q: Now we will proceed. Together with the head nurse you went to see Frau Dr. Kraetzer. How were you introduced to her and what did you discuss with her?
A: I was introduced to Dr. Kraetzer as Sister Karin Huppertz from Berlin. I believe the same words were added that were added when I was introduced to Dr. Gerstacker, that is to say, the reasons for my being in Nurnberg were explained. I said to Frau Dr. Kraetzer, the alleged reason for my visit had already been settled but a disaster had occurred to her questionnaire. A new secretary had exchanged the sheets and I did not know whether, on my return to the office, I would find those questionnaires or whether perhaps they might have been thrown into the wastepaper basket and thus might have been lost. Would she please be kind enough to save the office another visit to the hospital by putting her "yes" once again in the three places which were provided for it just as it had been before. She did so. I thanked her and said goodbye to her.
THE PRESIDENT: May I ask about that? Was the first shoot removed from both reports of the two German doctors?
THE WITNESS: Yes, it was, but it had been restapled firmly.
BY DR. NATH:
Q: Then the conversations were finished? What did you then do with the questionnaires?
A: I cannot remember at all myself. Frau Dr. Schultz and Dr. Marx' first secretary, Frau Breger, have now told me, however -
THE PRESIDENT: We want to know what your own personal knowledge was, please.
THE WITNESS: I have no knowledge.
BY DR. NATH:
Q: May I ask you a question? Do you remember this, that you took the questionnaires to the secretaries' office?
A: I am supposed to have?
Q: No, not what you are supposed to have. Can you remember what you did?
A: Yes; I did come back with the questionnaires and I put them there on the table.
Q: I didn't quite understand that. Was that on the table of the secretaries or was that in the room of Dr. Marx?
A: It was in the room of the secretaries. I put it on the same table from whore I bad removed them on the previous evening.
Q: As for the details of your conversation with Dr. Gerstackcr and Dr. Kraetzer, did you tell Dr. Marx about them?
A: I don't believe so, for Dr. Marx wasn't there at the moment I came back and during those days we were deep in work.
Q: When, later, Dr. Marx, on account of this indictment -- perhaps also on account of some other circumstance - I don't know- heard of your conversation with Dr. Gerstackcr, what did he say to then?
A: He was furious and said, "If I had known that, if I had known that you would go to Dr. Gerstackcr, I would have murdered you". Anyway that was the meaning of it, at least.
Q: Now I would like to ask you this question. You have told us that Dr. Marx had not requested you to call on Dr. Kraetzer and Dr. Gerstacker.
Why did you go all the same?
A: Originally I had only meant to go and see Kraetzer. After all, I didn't know anything about the existence of Dr. Gerstacker. That only resulted from the fact that we were unable to find Dr. Kraetzer. The reason I wanted to see Frau Dr. Kraetzer was this: When Dr. Marx came into the room and said that the German doctors consider that the defendant Engert was able to stand his trial, whereas the American doctors rejected that view, the difference of opinion annoyed me and irritated me. From my eight years of work in New York I know American doctors. I know how excellent they are.
THE PRESIDENT: It is entirely immaterial for you to go into your knowledge of American doctors. The Court knows that they differ greatly in individual cases throughout the world. We have no need to know about that.
A: (Continuing): On the morning of the same day I had heard that Herr Engert's state of health had deteriorated considerably and I immediately decided that I would go to see Frau Dr. Kraetzer, and to talk to her, as one woman to another, and see whether it would not be possible on account of that obvious deterioration, to change her opinion.
Q. Frau Hupportz, are you accustomed to working that independently?
A. For a great many years I have always worked very independantly.
Q. Are you a very active person?
A. Yes, unfortunately much too much so.
Q. Why did you chose the profession of a nurse?
THE PRESIDENT: I think we will not go into that.
DR. NATH-SCHREIDER: I have no further questions.
THE PRESIDENT: You have no further questions?
DR. ORTH: No questions.
THE PRESIDENT: Cross examination.
CROSS EXAMINATION.
BY MR. LAFOLLETTE:
Q. Now who took you to Dr. Gerstacker's Office?
A. The chief nurse of the hospital, Johanna Ernst, Diaconiss.
Q. And when you wont to the hospital you had at least four sheets of paper with you, didn't you? Let me hand you these exhibits 3 and 4?
(The documents are handed to the witness.)
A. Thank you.
Q. Is that what you went to the hospital with?
A. Yes, it seems tone that those are the sheets.
Q. If you never heard of Dr. Gerstacker, how did you got to Dr. Gerstacker's office?
A. In the morning, when I was with the chief nurse I had taken these sheets from my handbag and I had shown then to her to make it clear to her what the business was.
Q. And you say that you never knew until you got to talk to Dr. Gerstacker that he had given an expert opinion in this case?
A. That is correct.
Q. What did you think Dr. Marx was talking about the night before?
A. In the morning I had heard that at the court where the state of health of Engert had already been discussed.
Q. I am talking about the night before. You went out to see Dr. Gerstacker when Dr. Marx said the German doctors wore more Popish than the Pope; what kind of an opinion did you think he was speaking of?
A. I did not quite get that.
Q. Maybe if you would put on your earphones, you would. I asked you when Dr. Marx on the 9th of July came from the American gentlemen in such an angry manner from the office of the Secretary General and said that the German doctors were more Popish than the Pope; what kind of an opinion did you think he was talking about that the German doctors had made.
A. Only the questionnaire, that is what I saw.
THE PRESIDENT: May I advice you that the questionnaire was an expert opinion by the medical physicians, it itself was an expert opinion.
THE WITNESS: Yes.
THE PRESIDENT: You knew about that?
THE WITNESS: I saw that at the moment when Dr. Marx brought it into the office.
BY MR. LAFOLLETTE:
Q. How, when you went into Dr. Gerstacker's office you asked him to change the answers on this questionnaire that you had with you - Exhibit 4; did you have that with you?
A. Only after I had already spoken to Dr. Gerstacker did I take this questionnaire out. Before I merely asked him whether possibly on account of the deterioration of Engert's state of health a change could be made.
Q. Yes, but I thought you said that you merely wanted him to fill these out because maybe a new secretary had lost the originals; now which was it?
A. That is what I said after I had shown the questionnaires to him. First of all when I was with Dr. Gerstacker I had these questionnaires in my handbag.
Q. Yes. Now if you wanted him to change them, maybe you would tell me how you know when you asked him to change than that they wore blank if you had never seen them before?
A. I said before that when I was with the head nurse I took them out and I had shown them to the chief nurse and that was when I saw the name of Gerstackcr for the first time.
Q. Gerstackcr is on the second sheet, isn't it?
A. Yes.
Q. How in order to look at the second sheet, you turned the first sheet back maybe?
A. Yes, yes.
Q. But when you went to see Dr. Gerstacker to ask him to change it, you did not know then that you had a blank sheet which you just looked at with the head nurse before you went to his office as the first sheet; is that what I understand now?
A. I know that I had it in my handbag.
Q. Did you know it was blank when you went to Dr. Gerstacker's office? Answer yes or no.
A. Yes, I saw that when I was in the room with the head nurse.
Q. So, when you asked Dr. Gerstackcr to change his opinion at that time you did not go there for the purpose of having it filled in because the original had been lost and you were afraid something had happened to it naturally. Well, what did you go there for? You didn't go there just because you wanted the original filled out, which you thought was lost, just like before?
A. As I had before intended to talk to Frau Dr. Kraetzer and because Dr. Kraetzer could not be found, I wanted to speak to Dr. Gerstacker to see whether it was possible, on account of the fact that Engert's health had deteriorated, and I know of the deterioration, that then it would be possible to make a change after a now medical examination.
Q. Yes. And now didn't you want him to change the original that he signed by striking out "Ja" and putting in "Nein"?
A. No, he then would have to think it over as to whether that was possible and he should have said. "I have to think it over from the medical point of view." That would be a different matter.
Q. I think maybe you did not understand me. When you started out to his office to the hospital you had those four sheets of paper in your handbag, you had never looked at them?
A. Yes.
Q. If Dr. Gerstacker had changed his mind, what were you going to have him do about the first sheet he had already written on; how were you going to do that?
A. I had to leave that to Dr. Gerstacker himself.
Q. Well, then you did not go out there then just to have him fill out the sheets the way they were before because you thought they were lost in Dr. Marx ' office?
A. I did not go to see him at all on account of the questionnaires as my main reason. I went to see him for the sake of a discussion.
Q. So, you went to see him for tho sake of a discussion, but you carefully took with you two new questionnaires with the first sheets blank; is that right?
A. That the first pages were blank, that I only found out there. Frau Wiever had been ordered to copy the questionnaires, I did not know if she had not done them correctly.
Q. You wore there when the order was given to copy them?
A. Yes.
Q. And you picked them up?
A. Yes.
Q. Now you were going to have a conversation with Dr. Gerstacker and Dr. Kraetzer, yes, a nice friendly conversation?
A. Originally I only wanted to speak with Dr. Kraetzer as one woman to another.
Q. Then why did you take the questionnaires along then; were you going to write notes on them to each other?
A. No. I had to have some contact with the chief nurse, Dr. Kraetzer, that is how it must have been.
Q. So you went to the hospital and took two "fragebegens" with the second sheet signed and the first sheet blank, one signed by Dr. Kraetzer and one signed by Dr. Gerstacker so they would serve as an introduction to you to the head nurse at the hospital; is that what you mean, is that why you went there?
AAll that happened so terribly fast that evening; but if the doctors had wanted to change their opinion, that possibly would have been there.
Q Yes, but wait a minute. The last thing I understood you to say was that you had taken these fragebogens so you could show them to the head nurse at the hospital to serve as an introduction of yourself. Did that happen that evening?
A Yes.
Q So you didn't take these out with you to have anybody sign them at all then.
A I was under the impression that they had already been signed and they were quite completed.
Q Then, why did you want to talk to Dr. Gerstacker or Dr. Kraetzer?
THE PRESIDENT: I think she has explained her position sufficiently.
MR. LAFOLLETTE: If the Tribunal is satisfied, I guess I must be.
Q Now, you said that you came down here to do a good turn. You say in your statement that you were called down here testify about the sea water experiments. Did you serve as a nurse in the concentration camp slaughters during the war when these experiments were being carried out?
A No. I never left Berlin during the whole of the war except for occasional trips.
Q Will you please tell me why you came back to Germany from New York in 1933?
A Because on her return trip from Africa, my mother fell ill and died in Antwerp.
Q You never heard of Engert until you got down here; is that right?
A That is right.
Q Dr. Beiglboeck conducted the sea water experiments, didn't he?
THE PRESIDENT: Mr. Lafollette -
MR. LAFOLLETTE: If Your Honor please, I would like to have an answer to this.
A I heard that here at the court.
Q And you were sent for on the 11th of June by Dr. Marx-
A I was here on the account of a trial in nursing affairs. I had to return to Berlin.
Q All right; I will accept that. Do you know that in the medical case, on the 20th of June of this year, the Prosecution produced evidence that Dr. Schroeder was at Natzweiler on the 25th May, 1944.
A Yes.
Q You know that.
A Yes.
Q And then ten days later, Dr. Marx as attorney for Schroeder, you gave an affidavit that Dr. Schroeder could not have been in Natzweiler -
A Yes.
Q On that day because he was attending a birthday celebration in your family.
A Yes.
Q And just out of the desire to do a humane act you went to see two doctors who had given export testimony as to the physical and mental condition of a defendant Engert about whom you never heard.
A Yes.
MR. LAFOLLETTE: That is all.
DR. NATH-SCHREIBER: May I put a few more questions to the witness.
THE PRESIDENT: If they are related to and limited to re-direct examination, you may do so.
RE-DIRECT EXAMINATION BY DR. NATH-SCHREIBER.
Q Frau Huppertz, what did you have to do with the sea water problem; what capacity did you have knowledge about it?
A I only learned about the sea water problems themselves here; or, perhaps before the newspapers; and from the indictment of Professor Schroeder.
Q In what capacity did you, I believe at the beginning of June 1947, come back from Berlin?
A I had received travel orders from here, and on the travel orders it said "assistant counsel"; that must have been a mistake, for later I found out that the first secretary of Br. Marx, for example, too has a pass on which by mistake it says "assistant counsel"although she is a secretary.
Q At that time did Dr. Marx intend to employ you as a secretary? And, did he make an application for your return to the court using that for a reason?
A Dr. Marx gave me a letter which I submitted in Berlin, and subsequently travel orders were forwarded from this end and were received in Berlin.
Q Were you employed ever -
A No, I was never employed -
THE PRESIDENT: You have covered that matter in your first examination.
DR. NATH-SCHREIBER: I have no further questions.
THE PRESIDENT: Do any other counsel have questions to put to this witness?
DR. NATH-SCHREIBER: I have no further questions to the witness Karin Huppertz.
With the approval of the Tribunal, may I now call Frau Johanna Ernst, the head nurse of the Nuernberg hospital.
THE PRESIDENT: The witness, the respondent Huppertz, is excused, there being no further examination. You may call your next witness.
MR. LAFOLLETTE: Excused as a witness, Your Honor.
THE PRESIDENT: The witness Huppertz is excused.
JOHANNA ERNST, a witness, took the stand and testified as follows:
BY JUDGE BLAIR:
Hold up your right hand and repeat after me the following oath:
I swear by God, the Almighty and Omniscient, that I will speak the pure truth and will add and withhold nothing.
(The witness repeated the oath.)
DIRECT EXAMINATION BY DR. NATH-SCHREIBER:
Q Sister, may I ask you to give your personal data to the Tribunal?
A Johanna Ernst. I was born on the 27th December, 1878.
Q What is your profession and were do you work?
A I work at the City Hospital, in Nuernberg as head nurse and Diaconiss.
Q Sister, please describe to us your meeting with Frau Karin Huppertz.
A Frau Karin Huppertz came to see me and said that she had come to see me about a very unpleasant matter, and she wanted to act as intermediary between Dr. Marx and our two doctors, Dr. Gerstacker and Frau Dr. Kraetzer, chief physician.
Q. Sister, amy I ask you first of all as to how Frau Huppertz introduced herself to you.
AAs Sister, Schwester, -- Karin Huppertz.
Q Did you know the name of Frau Huppertz; did it mean anything to you?
A Yes, I knew her name from the periodical "Die Deutsche Schwester, the Nursing World. That was a periodical which we used to read at Neuendettelsan.
Q Just now you said that Frau Huppertz had said to you that she wanted to mediate Dr. Marx and between Dr. Kraetzer and Dr. Gerstacker.
A Yes.
Q Did she immediately at the beginning of your conversation mention the name of Dr. Gerstacker?
A I cannot remember that for certain, but she did mention the two doctors.
Q May I ask you to continue for the time being.
A Well, Miss Karin Huppertz said that Dr. Marz was very angry because our German doctors had given a different medical opinion from the one which had been given by the American doctors with reference to the two defendants who were ill, the Americans had said no; whereas, our doctors had said yes; and had said that they were able to stand trial.
And Dr. Marx was very angry and she wanted to see whether one couldn't mediate between Dr. Marx and the two doctors.
Q Did Frau Huppertz during that conversation take documents from her hand bag?
A Not when she was with me, no.
Q Did she show the questionaires to you?
A No, I did not look into them. I didn't look into those questionaires.
Q Sister, do you remember that Frau Huppertz was holding papers in her hand while she was talking to you?
A I only remember she was holding them in her hand when she was with Dr. Gerstacker. I do not remember she was holding them in her hands when she was talking with me.
Q May I ask you now to give us an account of the further course of the conversation, what was the development? May I ask you a question? Did you go first to look for Dr. Kraetzer?
A I went to look for her in ward 37 where she was working but she wasn't there at that time. Then we went to ward 21 to Dr. Gerstacker.
Q Did you suggest that you go look for Dr. Gesstacker or was it Frau Huppertz who suggested that?
A I can no longer remember that for certain but maybe I did say: "because Frau Dr. Kraetzer is not here for the moment I will first go ward 21 with Frau Huppertz to see Dr. Gerstacker."
Q May I ask you now to give us an account of the conversation with Dr. Gestacker. How did you introduce Frau Huppertz?
AAs nurse, Schwester, Karin Huppertz.
Q During the conversation did Frau Huppertz use the words: "I am Dr. Marx secretary?"
A I cannot remember that. I cannot remember having heard that word.
Q Please give us an account of the course the conversation took?
A When Dr. Gerstacker came, Sister Karin explained to him the matter on behalf of which she had come. Dr. Gerstacker immediately got very excited and furious because as he thought he was going to be expected to give a different medical opinion from the one he had given. He said according to his conscience and to his best medical knowledge he had given his expert opinion, and according to that theory he could not now deviate from it.
Q Did Frau Huppertz immediately at the beginning of the conversation produce the questionaires.
A I cannot remember that for certain but certainly she did submit them to him during the course of the conversation.
Q Was Dr. Gerstacker very excited during that conversation?
A Yes, he was excited.
Q Do you remember whether Dr. Gerstacker, I beg you pardon, I am correcting myself - do you remember that Frau Huppertz said to Dr. Gerstacker that she had come to ask him to bring the expert opinion up to date?
A I can't say for certain. I can't remember. I could not follow the conversation so closely because I did not find out the details of the matter. I did find out what it was all about.
Q Do you remember this? Did Frau Karin Huppertz say more or less at the end of the conversation :"Well then, doctor, put your "yes" down on the questionaire and everything will be all right again?"
A Yes, I do remember that.
Q Did you try to persuade Dr. Gerstacker?
A Yes, I did that.
Q Is it right that Frau Huppertz said to Dr. Gerstacker: "Well really I had meant to go and see Frau Dr. Kraetzer but I no longer feel like it."?
A I don't remember that for certain.
Q Do you remember that Dr. Gerstacker said to Frau Huppertz: "You can go to see Frau Dr. Kraetzer. She isn't as rude as I am"?
A Yes, yes, I do remember that.
Q At the end of the conversation did Dr. Gerstacker apologize to Frau Huppertz because of his behavior?
A Whether I can use the word "apologize" I don't know for certain, but at any rate the two shook hands and parted feeling more settled again.
Q Do you remember this remark by Frau Huppertz: "'Well I came on account of the kindness of my heart to mediate"?
A Yes, I remember that exactly "and now I am having all of this trouble. That is what has happened to me."
Q Do you also remember that Frau Huppertz said that she had taken questionaires like that from the table?
A Yes, yes, because Dr. Gerstacker was excited because one sheet seemed to be missing and she said she had taken them from the table like that.
Q When the conversation with Dr. Gerstacker was ended you went to Frau Kraetzer, did you?
A Yes.
Q How did you introduce Frau Huppertz there?
AAgain as Nurse Karin Huppertz. Of course, because that was the only name by which I knew her.
DR. NATH SCHREIBER: I have no further questions to offer.
DR. LAFOLLETTE: No questions.
THE PRESIDENT: Counsel has indicated there is no further examination of this witness, the witness may be excused.
Has the Respondent Huppertz by her attorney any other witness to call?
DR. NATH SCHREIBER: No.