A. (No response.)
THE PRESIDENT: Dr. Marx, do you mean that he delivered them to you? Did he deliver the papers to you?
THE WITNESS: He first of all showed them to me.
THE PRESIDENT: Just answer my question. Did he give you the papers?
THE WITNESS: Yes, he gave them to me.
BY MR. LA FOLLETTE:
Q. Did he show you the American answers at the same time, Dr. Marx?
A. No, he did not show the American answers to me. As far as I could see he didn't have them there either.
Q. So it was the originals that you got from Mr. Wartena that you took back to your secretaries' office?
A. Mr. Wartena told me -
THE PRESIDENT: Answer the question, Dr. Marx.
A. Yes. I took them along to the room of the secretaries.
BY MR. LA FOLLETTE:
Q. So that when you took than to your secretaries' office the answers were there and they were stapled together, both Dr. Kraetzer's and Dr. Gerstacker's; is that right?
A. Of course. I took the papers into my hand in one grasp and then put them on the table.
Q. How, isn't it a fact that after Miss Wieber had made the copies that you told her to make, that she put them back on your desk that evening?
A. No; that is absolutely impossible. At that time I did not even leave the office of the secretaries because I was dictating there and I did not even go into my own office.
Q. Does your own office adjoin that of your secretaries?
A. It is opposite?
Q. What did you tell her to do with these copies, when you told her to make them, after she had finished?
A. I told Frau Wieber quite clearly, "Copy their questionnaires."
Q. Yesterday I understood you to say in your testimony that you wanted them for your files, to have copies; is that correct?
A. Mr. Wartena gave me the questionnaires so that I could make copies for me -- for my files.
Q. And why did you not return the original then the next morning as soon as you had made your copies that night?
A. Well I did not know at all what had taken place. The first thing I again heard of this whole affair was one individual sheet that I saw again. It was a sheet of the original questionnaire. I thought to myself, well, what happened here that one single sheet remained?
Q. When did you find that single sheet?
A. As far as I know that was only Monday morning.
Q. What did you do when you found it; did you notify Mr. Wartena?
A. Yes, I went to Mr. Wartena and showed him or brought to him this sheet and I believe a copy. I did not know yet what was missing. Mr. Wartena told me this is not correct, bring me all the sheets and only then did I examine the questionnaire carefully and then I again recollected all the original questionnaires.
Q. Now, doctor, let us think a little bit - you found one separate sheet; was that the first sheet with the answers on it?
A. I believe it was a sheet that had the answers on it.
Q. And that is all you found at that time? Well, then you did know what else was missing then. Did you know that the second sheet of the original was missing and two sheets of another were missing; you did know what was missing, didn't you?
A. No, I thought some kind of carelessness had occurred and the peculiar thing that is my secretary, Frau Blegler, or somebody else, had even this sheet misplaced. Thus it was absolutely a chain of mistakes.
Q. You thought that was a chain of mistakes?
A. Yes.
Q. How you were going to return the papers that you got from Mr. Wartena yourself, were you not?
A. No, when I saw this one single sheet, I said to myself....
Q. Excuse me, doctor, I did not put my question properly. When you got the sheets from Mr. Wartena, it was your intention, after yon had copies made that you, Dr. Marx, would return them; is that correct?
A. Yes, I hardly think it could have been done any other way.
Q. Well, if you were to return the sheets, how then could you think there could be an accident when you found this loose sheet; you did not think anyone else returned them, did you?
A. Hell, I could not explain how one single sheet could lie on the table.
Q. Do you still have in your office the copies that were made by your secretary, those with Dr. Kraetzer's answers and those of Dr. Gerstacker, the ones she made for you files?
A. Well, I don't have any copies at all of an expert opinion; are you Mr. Senior Prosecutor referring to the copies of the questionnaires?
Q. The ones you took from Mr. Wartena to make copies for your files. Do you still have the copies you had made for your files?
A. I have not seen these copies at all.
THE PRESIDENT: Will you produce them?
MR. LA FOLLETTE: His Honor wants to know if you will produce them and I want to know if you will produce the copies you had made. Now, will you send somebody for them or when you have time if the court will permit you to search for them.
How, after your conversation on the 28th at the hospital with Dr. Gerstacker in the ward, do you remember that you, Dr. Gerstacker and Dr. Storn walked down stairs together?
THE WITNESS: I did not go down any stairs at all, because Dr. Gerstacker received us down stairs at the entrance to Ward 21.
MR. LAFOLLETTE:
Q. Did you walk out of the ward with Dr. Gerstacker and Dr. Stern after the conversation in the ward?
A. I only went back together with Dr. Stern and I remember that for certain.
Q. You don't recall that after this, which you call a rather unpleasant and excitable conversation with Dr. Gerstacker that you said to him that if he likes cigars that the next time you saw him, you would try to arrange to get some for him?
A. That is absolutely impossible. First, I don't have any cigars for that man and secondly, he certainly would not have gotten any cigars from me.
Q. I wish the Marshall would make an immediate attempt to get a hold of Dr. Gerstacker and Dr. Stem as soon as possible.
You said that you paid no attention to Frau Huppertz' statement that she might call on Dr. Kraetzer; why was it then, as you have testified, that later on that evening or that night you called Dr. Kraetzer and told her that somebody would possibly be to see her the next day; did you intend to call?
A. As far as I remember, I stated that I personally would again try to see Frau Head Physician Dr. Kraetzer in order to find out whether Engert's condition would not have taken a change for the worse.
THE PRESIDENT: Dr. Marx, as I remember your testimony, you said, over the phone, that someone would possibly call in the morning;
why did you not say that you would probably call in the morning if that was your intention?
THE WITNESS: I think I can explain the matter. I heard from the mouth of Frau Huppertz that via the head nurse she would try to get in touch with the chief physician, Dr. Kraetzer and to meet her. Then because I did know that Dr. Kraetzer, was just about to go on leave, I called Dr. Kraetzer on the telephone in the evening. I think that I can remember for certain that I said in the course of the conversation "perhaps somebody will come to see you-a nurse and will like to speak to you, but it is better if you do not receive her". I attributed to this statement that the next morning Dr. Frau Kraetzer refused to see Frau Huppertz.
BY MR. LA FOLLETTE:
Q. Dr. Marx, if you told Dr. Kraetzer that it was better that she not talk to Frau Huppertz; didn't you know that the purpose for which Frau Huppertz was going to see Dr. Kraetzer, or why did you tell her that?
A. My train of thought was the following. I thought Frau Huppertz is a woman, who would perhaps in that situation not know quite how to behave. I wanted to avoid any mutual discussions taking place there at all.
Q. You did think enough though of Nurse Huppertz that in the medical case on 30 June, 1947, you took an affidavit from her for the purpose of furnishing an alibi for your client Dr. Schroeder in the medical case and introduced it in evidence as Schroeder Exhibit No. 26? that is correct isn't it?
A. Yes, that is correct.
Q. Just one other question, Doctor. On 26 June 1947 how many defendants were you representing in the Military Tribunals here in Nurnberg? 6139
A. Well, in the medical case, Generalstabsarzt Dr. Schroeder and Air Force Doctor Becker-Freyseng. In the jurist trial, Engert and now that the General's trial has started, General Dehne.
Q. Yes, but on 26 June had you accepted employment in the General's case for the client you mentioned?
A. I don't believe so. May I say the following in that connection, perhaps it is necessary that I explain to the Tribunal why I took up the defense of Engerat at all.
THE PRESIDENT: No, that is not necessary. It is not relevant to this inquiry.
MR. LA FOLLETTE: That is all I have, Doctor.
THE PRESIDENT: Any further examination of this respondent? If not, he is excused from the witness stand. Call your next witness.
Dr. Orth, do you have any more witnesses to call for the respondent Marx? Just nod your head or shake.it, and I will understand.
DR. ORTH: No.
DR. NATH-SCHREIBER: May I with the permission of the Tribunal now call the respondent Frau Karin Huppertz to the witness stand.
FRAU KARIN HUPPERTZ, a witness, took the stand and testified as follows:
BY THE PRESIDENT:
Raise your right hand and repeat after me the following oath: I swear by God, the Almighty and Omniscient , that I will speak the pure truth and will withhold and add nothing.
(The witness repeated the oath.)
You may be seated.
DIRECT EXAMINATION BY DR. NATH-SCHREIBER:
Q. Frau Karin Huppertz, may I ask you to state your personal data to the Tribunal?
A. My name is Karin Huppertz; I was born 24 May , 1894 in Pirmasens.
Q. Please tell the Tribunal -- give the Tribunal a brief survey of your curriculum --
THE PRESIDENT: I think this is unnecessary in this type of case. What her occupation is---she may tell that.
A. Eor more than thirty years I have been a nurse.
Q. Did you live in America for some time?
A. I lived in American for eight years.
Q. From when to when?
A. From 1925 to 1933.
Q. What were your plans in America?
THE PRESIDENT: We are not concerned with that. Your only point is that she speaks English.
DR. NATH-SCHREIBER: May it please the Tribunal, I believe for the motive of the act it is of extraordinary importance that I put a few brief questions on this point. It will serve for the understanding of the Tribunal.
THE PRESIDENT: Make them very brief.
DR. NATH-SCHREIBER: Yes.
Q. May I repeat. Did you work in America?
A. I worked in the Women's Hospital of New York, and took a post-graduate course there and passed the examination. Then, I mainly worked in hospitals and also took care of private patients.
Q. Did you meet American physicians -- and what is your opinion of them?
THE PRESIDENT: Just a moment. That is not important -- arid if counsel doesn't understand the instructions that we have given her, she will have to get assistance in the trial of this matter. Her opinion of American doctors has no more to do with this case than it has with the trial of Benedict Arnold.
Q. Frau Karin Huppertz, please describe to the Tribunal how you happened to come to Nurnberg.
A. I was called as a witness to Nurnberg. The examination was delayed and for that reason I then was not called into the witness stand. I then assisted in the offices of the defense, especially in Dr. Marx' office.
Q. Did not Dr. Marx employ you; and do you get a salary?
A. I am not employed by Dr. Marx; I never received a salary.
Q. If nobody employed you, how then did you enter the Palace of Justice?
A. During the first times I received a pass every day. Later on I got a five day pass.
Q. Who always signed those daily passes?
A. In the office of Captain Rice.
Q. I know that the witnesses who are called to come to Nurnberg get a room and a ration-free meal which they have to pay fifty cents for. Did you make use of this for yourself?
A. I did not receive a room through the militaries authorities; almost during the whole time, but not always, did I receive a ration free meal; and, perhaps this is important too: I never received money for being a witness -- zeugengeld.
Q. For how long are you no longer getting the noon meal?
A. Since the conclusion of the medical trial, and it is impossible that I can be called to the witness stand any longer, I no longer made use of the privilege to obtain a meal.
Q. Your activity here, which was an unofficial activity, is it known to the American authorities?
A. Yes.
Q. How?
A. About three weeks ago, the Wohnungsamt confiscated the room that I had with some friends. I could not find another room immediately. Therefore, I went to Major Schaeffer in order to ask him to help me in obtaining a room. He told me that he had no authority to do so since I was here unofficially, but I should ask Mr. Wartena whether he could assist me to find a room. Mr. Wartena also refused it.
Q. When you are working near here, in what office do you work -in what room?
A. In the room of the secretaries' office -- Room 515 -- where the secretaries of Dr. Marx also are working.
Q. Did you participate in the sessions of the pending trials here?
A. Only in the medical trial -- not any other one.
Q. What, until the 9th of July, 1947, did you know about the Engert case?
A. Nothing at all -- outside of the name; and this was not even correct.
Q. What happened on Wednesday, the 9th of July?
A. In the forenoon, Dr. Marx came to the office and said approximately the following: I was at the hospital to see Engert. His state of health has deteriorated to such an extent that I am anxious to know what will happen now. I also discussed this with the head physician, Dr. Kraetzer. She told me you observed that very well, Dr. Marx; that is correct.
Q. Did you remember that so well -- and why?
A. I remembered it quite well - first, I notice immediately -I immediately pay attention when somebody speaks about a disease or a sickness, because that is my speciality; and , moreover, I was amused because I noticed that Dr. Marx seemed to be obviously proud that he was such a good observer.
Q. On that morning did you hear the name of Dr. Kraetzer for the first time?
A. Yes.
Q. Now, please tell us what happened in the evening of the 9th of July.
A. Dr. Marx came from the office of an American gentleman to the office of the secretaries and said: "Now I am under the impression that the German physicians are more holy than the Pope. They considered that Engert is able to appear in the trial, while the Americans have for a long time been of the opinion that he was not able to stand a trial. I shall express that very clearly in the next session. I considered the American point of view more important than the German." He then handed to the secretary Frau Wieber --- gave to the secretary copies of these questionnaires. In so saying he handed the questionnaires to Frau Wieber which he held in his hand.
Q. And then what happened?
A. I replied thereupon, "But, Dr. Marx, you can't do that. You will put yourself in an embarrassing position if before the same Court on the one hand you defend German physicians and on the other hand you lower them."
Q. "That was Dr. Marx' re-action to your objection?
A. He said: "Leave that up to me". He would like to go to see Dr. Kraetzer that very same day still in order to ask her whether the expert opinion would not have to be supplemented. Unfortunately, however, he did not have the time to do so. Thereupon, I replied quite spontaneously that I had intended for a long time to visit the head nurse at the city hospital. On the occasion of such a visit I could be introduced to Dr. Kraetzer and ask her whether on the basis of the deterioration of the state of health of Engert the expert opinion could not be brought up to date. Dr. Marx said jokingly: "Well, nothing will come out of that." Dr. Marx assumed that I would go to see Frau Kraetzer only in order to hear whether that possibility perhaps existed.
Q. Did Dr. Marx listen to you attentively?
A. No, I do not think so. He was very much preoccupied and immediately returned to his work with which he was over-burdened during the last days since he had to complete the trial brief and the final plea. Therefore, he had become quite absent minded and it was difficult for him to concentrate. He frequently made changes in his final plea and was obviously nervous.
Q. Is it a fact that when Dr. Marx told you that he would prefer to go to see Dr. Kraetzer that very evening in order to ask for a supplement of the expert opinion, did you think that he meant only on the basis of the newest of the opinions?
MR. LAFOLLETTE: Please, please, if your Honors please. I don't think it makes any difference, the questions seems to be here and the answers are there, but I do want to object that this is a completely leading question.
THE PRESIDENT: It calls for the opinion of this witness as to what was in the mind of the respondent Marx. That is a question for this Tribunal to decide on the basis of facts and we can give little or no weight to the expressed opinion of one witness and to what another witness was thinking about.
BY DR. NATH SCHREIBER:
Q. Well, let us come back to your conversation with Dr. Marx. Was your conversation now concluded and did you leave the room?
A. The discussion in regard to Engert had been concluded but I left the room even faster than I thought I did. A brief inter-change had taken place between Dr. Marx and me but that had nothing to do with the Engert case. Dr. Marx had made a very tactless and derogatory remark which put me as a woman in a very embarrassing position and insulted me very much. Therefore, please spare my going into the matter. Thereupon, I got up in a rage and said to Dr. Marx: "How tactless , Dr. Marx. Shame on you." I gathered up the questionnaires from the table and immediately left the room.
Q. Did you not say to Dr. Marx: "Well just to let you know I am going to Dr. Kraetzer and I am taking along the questionnaires?"
A. No, I was too embarrassed and too angry to do that.
Q. Did Dr. Marx see that you took along the questionnaires?
A. I believe I am quite sure he did not see it. He had already returned to his work and he was especially absent minded and confused on that evening.
Q. During that discussion did Dr. Marx give you the order to go to Dr. Kraetzer?
A. No, one could not speak about an order.
Q. During that whole conversation was the name of Dr. Gerstacker mentioned?
A. No, the name of Dr. Gerstacker was not mentioned.
C. Was that name known to you?
A. No, on that day I had not heard of it at all yet.
Q. What did you do with the questionnaires?
A. I put them into my large hand bag which I always carry with me.
Q. What happened then?
A. I telephoned to the hospital and found out that the head nurse was no longer at the hospital on that evening and I asked to have an appointment made for me with her for the next morning. The next morning I went to see the head nurse. I introduced myself as nurse Karin Huppertz from Berlin and told her she must know me.
THE PRESIDENT: I wonder if I understood you correctly. Did you introduce yourself as a nurse or sister?
WITNESS: I used the German word "schwester".
THE PRESIDENT: Thank you.
WITNESS: We do not have two different expressions for nurse and sister. They are the same words in German.
DR. NATH SCHREIBER:
I beg your pardon, I believe there is a mistake in the translation. No, she did not. I beg your pardon.
THE PRESIDENT: The word has been explained. Go ahead.
WITNESS:
A. I said: you must know me from the Journal "Die Deutsche Schwester", I believe we also telephoned each other once on the occasion of a visit that we paid to a mutual acquaintance, that I had intended during the whole time to pay a visit to her once, that I had been in Nurnberg for sometime, first I had been summoned as a witness and so far I had not been examined, and now I was helping privately on the basis of my knowledge of the language, in the office of a lawyer and I helped anybody else who needed my help, and that was the reason I now happened to come to her. There was again a case in which I thought that I could help to mediate. Therefore, I requested her to go with me to Dr. Kraetzer and to introduce me to her, that I was concerned with one of her patients. I showed the questionnaire to her and I showed her how they had been filled out so far and told her that perhaps the possibility existed to speak to the head physician Frau Dr. Kraetzer, to consult with her and to discuss whether on the basis of the deterioration of the condition of Engert's health a change in the expert opinion was perhaps possible.
The Americans considered him unable to appear in the trial.
Q. Frau Huppertz you just stated that you took out the questionnaires. Did you see them for the first time on that occasion?
A. Yes, I did.
Q. Did you not take them out of your bag in the apartment on the evening before?
A. No, I did not.
C. In the questionnaires did you notice when you took them out anything especially?
A. Yes, I noticed that the first page was a copy which the secretary had made without the answers filled in and the second pages were the original pages with the signature. Those sheets of the questionnaires were fastened together with a staple. Each questionnaire consisted of a single two sheets. They were not two loose sheets in each case. There were two questionnaires, one signed by Dr. Kraetzer and the other by Dr. Gerstacker and here I saw the name of Dr. Gerstacker for the first time.
Q. What thoughts were passing through your mind when you saw the questionnaires?
MR. LAFOLLETTE: I object, Your honors.
THE PRESIDENT: She may answer, it may be relevant in mitigation.
WITNESS:
A. I thought that the new secretary by error had taken a copy of the first pages and had stapled them erroneously to the original page with the signature and that the first pages of the original she might perhaps even have thrown into the waste paper basket.
BY DR. NATH SCHREIBER:
Q. Did you know the date of the questionnaires?
A. No, I did not. I said that was the first time I saw them. I still do not know the date to this very day but at that time, of course, I was under the impression that the questionnaires were at least six to eight days old due to the channels that they had gone through.
Q. Did you now go to Dr. Kraetzer with the head nurse?
A. We tried to find Dr. Kraetzer in different wards of the hospital but we couldn't find her and I believe thereupon the head nurse made the suggestion, but I do not remember that for certain, to go to see Dr. Gerstacker too.
THE PRESIDENT: Just a moment. We will take a fifteen minute recess.
(A short recess was taken.)
THE MARSHAL: The Tribunal is again in session.
BY DR. NATH-SCHREIBER:
Q: Frau Huppertz, did you know that Dr. Marx had a very excited argument with Dr. Gerstacker on the 28th June 1947?
A: No, I had no idea of that; otherwise I certainly would not have gone there. I had no idea of the whole Engert case.
Q: When you came to Dr. Gerstacker how did the chief nurse introduce you?
A: As sister, Schwester, Karin Huppertz from Berlin who is at present staying in Nurnberg, who was asked for as a witness at the doctors' trial and who had not yet been examined and also that by reason of my linguistic knowledge, quite privately and voluntarily, I was helping in the office of a lawyer for purely humane reasons. And that in the same way I was now trying to work for a cause to mitigate and help, if that were possible. It was the Engert case with which I was concerned. When that name had been mentioned Dr. Gerstacker immediately became very excited and aggressive. What was the matter again there? He obviously felt insulted and in some way bypassed. I told him that Dr. Marx on the evening before had been called to see a gentleman of the court or an American gentleman. May I interpolate here that Dr. Gerstacker said it exactly like that yesterday. There must have been a mistake in translation, for the interpreter said "an important gentleman". That work "wichtig" important gentleman of the court was not used. From that moment onwards Dr. Gerstacker was so much excited that I gained the impression that he only saw Dr. Marx in back of me.
I gave an account of the events of the previous day -
THE PRESIDENT: Will you just tell us what the conversation was. That is the material part of the case as far as you arc concerned. What was the conversation between you?
THE WITNESS: That that gentleman had told him that the German doctors had said that the defendant Engert would be able to stand his trial, whereas the American doctors had been saying for a long time that he was not able to stand trial. Dr. Gerstacker frequently interrupted me in an excited tone of voice. I then told him that I quite spontaneously of my own initiative had offered Dr. Marx to talk with the German woman doctors through contact being made by the head nurse, on whom I had wanted to call anyhow. For on account of the deterioration of Engert's state of health which had been mentioned in the morning, perhaps there was a possibility to change or supplement the expert opinion, for surely the questionnaires were a few days old. Dr. Gerstacker then said that a week ago he had given a detailed expert opinion, and the answers to the questions in the questionnaire were based on that expert opinion. He could not testify one way today and another way tomorrow. I was very surprised, indeed, that an expert opinion had already been given and said immediately it was a matter of course, he couldn't possibly do that. I had not known that an expert opinion had already been given by him. I myself was now very annoyed to have involved myself into this situation with that unpleasant doctor. I said to Dr. Gerstacker, "but I can't understand Dr. Marx, either, because if he knew of the expert opinion he should have stopped my kind plan of interfering here voluntarily and and quite from the human point of view.
That is a matter of course that if you have already given such an expert opinion you cannot change your opinion."
Q: Were you very excited at that moment?
A: Yes, I was excited inside, naturally I had to try, vis-a-vis Dr. Gerstacker, who was even more excited, to remain calm.
Q: But earlier you said that Dr. Marx had known nothing about the conversation with Dr. Gorstacker and that the name had not been mentioned at all on the evening before
A: Dr. Marx had no idea that I was going to Dr. Gerstacker.
Q: Well, how in that case could you say to Dr. Gerstacker that you could not understand Dr. Marx that if he didn't know at all that you were going to Dr. Gerstacker?
A: In my excitement I went too far, because I had no idea of all the events that had gone before. But I am convinced that if Dr. Marx had known that I, instead of going to Dr. Kraetzer would go straight to Dr. Gorstacker, he would have stopped me energetically and would, in fact, have prohibited my visit.
Q: How did that conversation continue?
A: I said to Dr. Gorstacker, "As I have come to the hospital, I have something to ask of you. A new secretary of Dr. Marx' has copied the questionnaire and as I saw today she has stapled them together incorrectly. As I do not know whether the original sheets will still be found at the office or whether perhaps who has destroyed the I would ask you to put your "yes" from the first sheet once again into the same places where the first three times "yes" appeared on the first sheet." Dr. Gerstacker again became indignant and aaid that was another attempt at taking him by surprise, and that had been arranged between Dr. Marx, the secretary, and myself.