Q.- I assume that Beiglboeck perhaps understood more than you?
A.- We had doctors in the camp who did not even know now to handle a surgical knife or a hypodermic needle.
Q.- Those were war doctors ?
A.- Those were SS doctors.
Q: You say, witness, that you had 300 fluorescope examinations daily and about 100 X-ray pictures?
A: Yes.
Q: How long does this take?
A: That varied. In series examinations it can take two or three minutes.
Q: And how long does an X-ray picture take, with an examination and the findings?
A: With practice, the picture is taken in half a minute, if one has assistants.
Q: Did you have assistants?
A Yes.
Q: Who?
A: An Austrian and a Yugoslav.
Q: Do you know their names?
A: One of them, his first name was Fritz Sachratka from Vienna. The other one had a Yugoslav name - he was from Leibach -- a medical student.
Q: There if I understand it correctly, you must have performed about 11,000 fluoroscope examinations per year?
A: In my monthly report, I always had ever a thousand; sometimes even more.
Q: Is it not possible that you made mistakes in view of this enormous number, especially since you were trying to help your comrades which must have distracted your attention?
A: If one has a sense of duty, mistakes are not impassible, of course, but they are not likely.
Q: Did not Beiglboeck have a Frenchman who helped him with the X-rays?
A: I do not know that. In examining the X-ray pictures, there were various prison doctors working and assistants working in the station.
There were also some Frenchmen in the Luftwaffe station.
Q: Now did this French doctor or you evaluate the findings?
A: I evaluated the findings of the fluoroscope and X-ray pictures. I also gave the findings and passed them on together with the picture. Later, instructions were issued to send only the pictures to the station without an opinion.
Q: How were you supplied with X-ray films?
A: From experience, I saw to it that there was always material available for X-ray pictures.
Q: But you will concede that at that time there was a great shortage?
A: We had supplied from the previous years when the T.B. station was set up and when we received enough of this material.
Q: With what preliminary diagnosis was the X-ray supplied?
A: From the individual stations, prisoners were sent to the stations, prisoners were sent to the stations for X-ray or fluoroscope, but for the most part without remarks as to what systems they had.
Q: Witness, you X-rayed, one person three times, and this was "O.B."; that means no findings. Is it not remarkable that so many X-rays were taken?
A: The fluoroscope was objected to because the patient was sick at the station, and since my findings were negative, the request was made again. In one case, I gave the findings; in other cases, Dr. Beiglboeck performed the fluoroscope himself and X-rays had to be taken.
Q: Don't you think that is a demonstration of special care that he checked your findings?
A: My findings were checked because from the beginning there was the fact that I found too few prisoners suitable for the experiments.
Q: And how did you swindle them?
A: I always tried to help the prisoners -- my comrades.
Q: That is very nice. But how did you do it technically?
A: In the fluoroscopes, I gave opinions, for example, which would make the person unsuitable for this particular experiment, because only healthy prisoners were to be admitted to the experiments.
Q: Do you not believe, witness, that a clinically trained doctor could realize that you were not giving truthful opinions?
A: I frequently had difficulties in the camp because of this activity.
Q: But not at Beiglboeck's time?
A: At Beiglboeck's time I was checked by the camp doctor because of Beiglboeck's mistrust.
Q: Now tell me, if you gave a negative opinion, then Beiglboeck was suspicious?
A: The physical condition of the prisoner who was brought to the station indicated that that there was something wrong with him.
Q: Now let's go on to this one patient whom you recall especially well. Did you talk to this patient when you X-rayed him for the first, second, or third time?
A: During the experiment at this station, one of these experimental subjects came to me several times and I asked him same questions.
Q: In German?
A: Yes, he spoke German
Q: Now why was this man X-rayed the second time?
A: I don't know what the reason was.
Q: Excuse me, but you can tell me, was that before the experiment, during the experiment, or after the experiment?
A: It was during the experiments that this man came for an X-ray examination.
Q: You can remember how tall he was?
A: 1.68 roughly I said approximately.
Q: Well, that is not important. But what did he look like? Was he young or was he old?
A: As far as I can remember, he was medium age, but the condition of the prisoner before and during the experiments changed considerably.
Q: What were these changes?
A: In his appearance and in his mental condition. That was expressed in his answers.
Q: Can you tell us whether this Gypsy had any characteristics?
A: If it were possible, I would give names and other clues, but I remember this person only from the circumstance that every experimental phase left certain characteristics in my memory.
Q: Well, we can't really expect that, but was the man brought in on a stretcher or did he walk?
A: For the first examination, he was only with an escort; later he was brought on a stretcher.
Q: Can you tell me who was the escort?
A: Prisoners from the station.
Q: Well, we know all these nurses. Don't you know who they were?
A: I don't remember exactly whether the nurses brought him or the experimental subjects themselves.
Q: Now when he came to be X-rayed, what did he look like? What was the color of his skin: white, blue, yellow? What did he look like?
A: The skin color of these people was dark brown, a little grey, because of the physical deterioration.
Q: what did his face look like? Was it swollen or was it sunken?
A: It was more sunken.
Q: You remember this man very well. You even know his weight -
A: Height.
Q: Yes, height, that is what I mean. What did his eyes look like? Were they shiny or dull?
A: To be honest, in my first or second affidavit, I would have put down more of what I know, but I have already said what I know about this person.
Q: I don't want you to be angry with me, Mr. Tschofenig. I am I am merely doing my duty.
I have to ask these things. Did this man complain to you? Did he say, "I have a headache, a stomachache?" Any other complaints?
A: I do not remember these details.
Q: But it was a remarkable case, wasn't it?
A The remarkable thing was the sudden fluoroscopic examination ordered by the station and -- he was immediately removed and taken back afterwards.
Q Did you have an X-ray machine with a collapsible table?
A Yes.
Q What did you do to give this patient special care?
A Patients who were brought for a fluoroscopic examination on a stretcher were stood up by the assistants behind the machine and were examined in this position because the fluoroscope examination in a lying position was possible but more difficult.
Q Do you remember the respiration of this patient when he was brought to you the last time? Did he breathe deeply or shallowly?
A He breathed like a sick person; his breathing was short.
Q Did the patient vomit?
A No.
Q Did he cough?
A Those are details which you can't possibly expect me to answer truthfully.
Q But you have a good memory; you remember the height of this man although you had 10,000,11,000 people a year. It must have been a special case?
A One notices the height, more especially when one has to deal with a person and put him behind the machine. One can more or less remember his height. But in the dark it is not possible to see the color of bis eyes or the color of his hair or anything else.
Q Did this patient move his limbs or did he just lie there motionless?
A Those are questions that are impossible for me to answer.
Q How many patients did you have at your X-ray station?
A I don't understand your question.
Q How many altogether? How many per year? How many people?
A I can't tell you exactly.
Q Well, approximately.
A In two years there were several thousands, if not more than 15,000.
Q Isn't it possible -- you say there were ninety gypsies and there were forty-four in the experiment -- isn't it possible that this gypsy was originally intended for the experiment and then was put in a different department or block?
AAfter the end of the experiments -- it was recorded on the case history from which block the patient came to the station.
Q Do you know when the sea-water experiment was finished?
A The sea-water experiment, as far as I remember, lasted about six weeks.
Q We have records showing that the last X-rays were on the 11th of September; on the 16th of September the station was dissolved. Do you not believe that the other gypsies, the doctors, the nurses would have learned that a man had died?
A He died three days later. After the experiment the subjects had remained at the station, but immediately after the end some people were taken to the normal hospital for normal treatment.
Q Do you know that gypsies stick together?
A No, I do not.
Q That is too bad. Let's assume it, then. Don't you believe that in such a close community the people would certainly have learned of it if three days after the end of the experiment one of them died?
A Events in a concentration camp are such that oven a neighbor can die without his comrade learning about it.
Q Now, if I say to you that a number of your former comrades are examined at the same time with you, who say under oath that it is impossible that anyone died. Don't you consider it possible that you have made a mistake?
A I am not aware that during the experiment anyone died at this station, but I do remember very well that there was a death three days after the end of the experiment.
It was one of these persons.
Q Witness, you say "heart and lungs negative"; you say in your second affidavit, "I found no pathological symptoms." Now, what did the man die of? Any doctor will say that is impossible.
AAt the internal station we had all cases of sickness. In this case the nurse as well as the doctor did not find any immediate disease, and the opinion already during the fluoroscopic examination which they gave was that this was one of the sea-water experimental subjects.
Q Tell me: who was working at this station where this man was? Who were the doctors and nurses?
AAt the internal station there were No. 3 and No. 7 and No. 9. These persons transferred from the experimental station. And I remember that this person came from Station 9 for fluoroscope examination.
Q Were there only SS doctors there or were there prisoner-doctors, too, Frenchmen, Yugoslavs and so on?
A In the hospital there were only prisoner-doctors working.
Q It is generally known that these foreign doctors were very comradely. I ask you, don't you believe if the man was admitted three days before that ho would have been given water or milk by these foreign doctors, that he would have been given something to eat, or do you believe that the man lay there helpless for three days?
A Every prisoner was given food and help. Every prisoner-doctor did everything he could to help the patients.
Q You are a medical layman, are you not?
A Yes, and as a layman I had to show the SS doctors what an X-ray machine was.
Q That is terrible. But do you believe that Beiglboeck knew an X-ray machine?
A I don't deny it.
Q And do you believe that Beiglboeck could find the beginning stages of TB -- tuberculosis -- more easily than you could?
A We will leave that to the experience of practice in the concent tration camp.
Q Well, then, you agree with me if i say that Beiglboeck had a right to distrust you, because you yourself have admitted that you tried to deceive him, though prompted by honorable motives.
A I have a very high opinion of medical science, but in a concentration camp I had to develop quite a different opinion of these doctors.
Q How often did you see Beiglboeck, talk to him?
A Perhaps two or three times.
Q And how were these meetings? What happened?
A They were not very friendly.
Q And that was because he had to make objections to your x-ray findings?
A Because my findings did not suit his plans.
Q Witness, everyone has enemies. We will leave out the rest of this. Anyhow, you had a Red Triangle.
A Yes.
Q Is it true that after the sea-water experiments, especially in the winter of 1944 and then into the spring of 1945, the mortality rate in Dachau increased considerably?
A Yes.
Q And the number of the sick?
A Yes, in the whole hospital the personnel had typhoid, in the beginning of 1945, and I myself got typhus in April.
Q I ask you, is it not possible that all the experimental subjects who were healthy at the beginning of the experiments and fasted for a few days were healthy but died later because of this disaster in the camp.
A It is possible that prisoners of this experimental station died from the general ----epidemics.
Q. Do you know Fritz Pillwein?
A. Yes.
Q. Do you know Worlicek?
A. I can't remember him very well.
Q. Do you know Marcio?
A. That was a Frenchman at the Luftwaffe Station as far as I remember.
Q. Yes, did. you have comradely relations with these people?
A. Yeses people you have just mentioned?
Q. Yes.
A. Yes, as far as I had any contact with them.
Q. You say that at the end of the experiments Professor Beiglboeck drew up a thorough report. It was dictated and in it it was stated that no one died?
A. I do not know of any report. I didn' t have any direct connections with the station.
Q. Don't you think that these people, above all the gypsies themselves, who participated, must know better than you that no one died?
A. We had observed that the experimental stations always tried to have as few incidents as possible on their records. Often at other experimental stations the persons who were tortured to death were removed to the normal hospital.
Q. And from this experience in the camp you say...you concluded that Beiglboeck might have acted in the same way and tried to conceal things in the same way?
A. I do not conclude this. I merely say that after the end of the experiments this one patient died at an internal station without any other pathological symptoms. There was nothing except that he had participated in the experiment.
Q. Later, after the liberation, did you perhaps meet any of the experimental subjects?
A. I do not remember doing so.
Q. Do you consider the people whom I have mentioned-Pillwein, Worlicek, Marcio, and then there was a Dr. Lesse, - do you consider them decent, creditable persons, or do you want to say that in your own experience these people are scoundrels and cannot be trusted to tell the truth?
A. I should like to say that those were decent comrades.
DR. STEINBAUER: Thank you. I have no further questions.
THE PRESIDENT: Any questions of the witness on the part of any other defense counsel? Have the Prosecution any further questions?
MR. HARDY: The Prosecution has no further questions, Your Honor.
THE PRESIDENT: There being no further questions to be propounded to the witness, the witness is excused from the stand.
MR. HARDY: May it please your Honor. At this time I wish to call the attention of the Tribunal to Dr. Steinbauer's request that we call the witness, Worlicek, some time during the day or the next day, inasmuch as he wishes to go back to Vienna on a business trip and if we call him later, Dr. Steinbauer may be out of the city; so, after the testimony of the witness, Mettbach is heard, I would be in a position to call Worlicek as a rebuttal witness, to comply with the wishes of Dr. Steinbauer. I could call him this afternoon. I will prepare him this noon-time and call him this afternoon. Mettbach, I understand, will be called too. If Mettbach is not here at this time, Dr. Steinbauer could continue presenting his documents until Mettbach, arrived.
THE PRESIDENT: I do not know whether the witness, Mettbach, is available at this time. Do you know, Dr. Steinbauer?
DR. STEINBAUER: Your Honors, I have asked Mettbach to be here at noon. I have not seen him for a few days. I assume that he will come, though, and I shall let the Tribunal know. If he doesn't come I shall submit the rest of my documents and I am willing to have pillwein and Worlicek be examined.
THE PRESIDENT: Very well. You do not...You said you asked him to be here at noon. It is now noon. You don't know whether the witness is here now or not?
DR. STEINBAUER: He will be here at 1:30 to eat; that is the important thing for him.
THE PRESIDENT: I assumed that's what you meant. Well, doctor, you may now proceed with the introduction of some of your documents.
DR. STEINBAUER: The next document which I offer is testimony of Dr. Edgar Hermann, Document 7, Exhibit No. 24. It is in document book 1, page 13 to 15. Dr. Hermann was a doctor in the camp with Beiglboeck, not in Dachau but in the camp at Tarvis, a troop camp, and met him there. I shall read only from page 14, the first sentence:
"All soldiers honored and loved him; to wards the patients he was like a faithfully caring mother, and he had a kind word for everyone. Russian and Italian prisoners were often treated. Professor Beiglboeck made no difference between them and our own people. He kept them far longer than the time allowed for them as patients, as he knew what a difficult time these people had as prisoners."
The next document which I should like to offer as Exhibit 25 is the affidavit of Lorenz Schmid, Document 8, volume 1, page 16-18. I read from page 16 at the top:
" From December 1943 to March 1945 I was assigned to the 21st Parachute Field Hospital, Tarvis/Kaernten as Stabsintendant of the German Wehrmacht."
Then I skip a few lines:
"Chief physician was Dr. Jaeger; Dr. Wilhelm Beiglboeck was Chief of the Department of internal and infectious diseases."
Then at the bottom:
"Beiglboeck did not know the reason for his assignment, and neither did I. I was only concerned with the affair insofar as, as administrative officer, I had to calculate the traveling and other expenses."
Then he describes Beiglboeck's return and says, in the center of page 2.
"I also asked him what the camp looked like. To this he replied that he could tell me nothing, as he had scarcely ever entered the camp, and had concerned himself only with his work."
The next document is affidavit of Dr. Franz Himmelstoss, which will be Exhibit No. 26. It is document 13, on page 28 of Document Book 1. This is a doctor who worked with Dr. Beiglboeck at Travis.
I read Point 1:
" In summer 1944 I worked as a physician in the parachute war-hospital in Tarvis, Upper Italy. At about the same time Dr. Beiglboeck worked there. He came to Tarvis from Dachau and I heard that he had also been in Tarvis before having been assigned to Dachau.
Then point 3:
" Dr. Beiglboeck told me, as well as others, that he was in Dachau but that he had not had much of a chance to see the internal procedure of the concentration camp....Dr. Beiglboeck also told us that the people volunteered for these sea-water experiments because they got better food and did not have to work, and that this was not detrimental to them except that they, to a certain extent, suffered from thirst."
Then point 6:
"Dr. Beiglboeck had no personal or scientific advantages from his experiments; on the contrary he had to postpone his own research work on infectious jaundice--hepatitis epidemicaowing to these experiments."
The next document which I offer is the affidavit of Professor Dr. Carl-Heinz Fishcher, as Exhibit No. 27, Document Book 2, No. 30, page 111. Professor Dr. Carl Heinz Fischer is a specialist for diseases of the teeth, mouth and jaws. He says in the third paragraph:
"When I heard about the examinations he carried out there that was the first I had heard of the experiments which were carried out on concentration camp prisoners--I asked Beiglboeck straight way if the concentration camp prisoners on whom he had to carry out the experiments were volunteers.
"Beiglboeck answered this question in the affirmative and I remember that his statements gave me the impression that the persons who were used by Beiglboeck for the experiments were under no compulsion, but that they were really volunteers.
"Furthermore, I asked Beiglboeck if anyone had been killed by the experiments or whether their health was likely to suffer in the future. Beiglboeck answered this question in the negative and I had the impression that in this respect everything possible was done to avoid complications" The next document will be the report of the Germany Navy doctor, Dr.Behr, on clinical observations of shipwrecked persons.
This will be Exhibit No. 28. It is document No. 19, Document Book 1, page 65.
It is a long document. I shall read merely from page 5, the summary. He said:
"In this case three people were able to live for 37 days on a water supply of at first 100 cc. It mast, however, be remembered that the general conditions were extremely bad.
The space available to each person was very small. Night and day had to be spent in an upright position. In addition, there was the psychic strain. Day after day passed. No lend and no ship was sighted.
"Then the first deaths occurred, becoming a daily event. the bodies could be thrown overboard only with greatest efforts by the exhausted survivors. The bodies drifted for days beside the boat which hardly moved in the tropical glare of the sun. An enormous desire for life and similar courage is required to overcome all this."
Then I shall offer a document, an article in the English magazine, NATURE, by Dr. Parker who also deals with sea water experiments. This will be Exhibit 29. It is in Document Book 1, Document 18, on page 56. I shall read the first sentence showing that the problem was discussed elsewhere.
"The possibilities of obtaining potable water from sea water by some simple method suitable for use on lifeboats and in similar circumstances have been much discussed during the last few months in the daily Press and in other quarters. Some of the statements made and the opinions expressed have indicated lack of knowledge of the scientific and practical aspects of the problem and of the possibilities and impossibilities."
Then he closes with a summary which I should like to read to the Tribunal on page 64 of the document book.
"Conclusion. It may be that investigations now being made will lead to some practicable method, suitable for use in lifeboats, of obtaining drinking water from sea water by simple distillation or by the use of base-exchange and acid exchange materials and chemical precipitating agents.
Any method proposed, however, must be submitted to stringent tests before it is recommended if undue risk of failure with serious consequences is to be avoided. Meanwhile arrangements have been made to provide lifeboats with larger quantities of drinking water than has previously been the practice."
The next document is an excerpt from an English book by Critchley on shipwrecked persons, in the supplemental volume, Document 37. The title is "Shipwrecked Survivors". I would like to ask the intercretors to read this document in English because my English pronounciation is not very good and then to translate it into German. It is on page 44 at the bottom.
THE PRESIDENT: I don't find that document, counsel. I may have it here.
MR. HARDY: The prosecution does not have a copy. If counsel may wait until after recess I may have it among my papers. If not, arrangements could be made by the defense counsel to obtain six copies of the English copy of it.
THE PRESIDENT: We have no copy of Document 3.
DR. STEINBAUER: No, this is only a supplement. This document was handed in later and I got the copies from the General Secretary's Office so the prosecution must have it already.
MR. HARDY: I don't have it at this time, your Honor. If it would be convenient I would ask Dr. Steinbauer to put off introducing this document until I have the opportunity to persue it.
THE PRESIDENT: Counsel has some other document he may offer?
DR. STEINBAUER: At the moment I have no other documents. Yes -- the next document is an affidavit of a doctor who is also at Tarvisio, Dr. Joachim Gloger, which I would like to offer as Exhibit 31. This is Document 25, first document in Document Book 2, page 98. I shall read from page 98, at the bottom, that:
"Not only German soldiers but Italians, Yugoslavs, Russians and Poles -- partly PoW's and partly axis workers or civilians -- as I saw for myself, had the same selfsacrificing medical and human care."
Then at the bottom of page 3:
"Professor Beiglboeck at first performed the sea water experiments on himself, drinking daily half a liter of sea water for, as far as I remember, five days in order to create by this preceding self-experiment his own impression of the experiment." page 100a.
Then at the bottom of page 101:
"He told mo that during the tests he constantly carried through clinical controls. By intravenous injections of physiological sodium chloride solution, etc., or drinking of fresh water, the patients recovered very quickly. Permanent damage was not to be expected from the test as only acute and reversible changes would have occurred. Every lasting damage could be excluded about which he got certainty by means of a thorough physical examination at the end of his stay in Dachau. Accordingly, no death occurred."
The next document is a statement of Dr. Ernst Gros which I offer as Exhibit 32. It is in Document Book 1, Document Book 1, Document 9, page 19. Dr. Gros says:
"I, Dr. Gros, born on 1 February 1907, German subject, surgeon by profession, residing at 14 Rheingaustrasse, Wiesbaden-Bieberich, herewith declare on oath that I know the following facts at first hand:
I know Professor Dr. Wilhelm Beiglboeck through my collaboration with him in the field hospital in Tarvis. In 1944 he was Chief of the Medical Department while I was in charge of the Aseptic Surgical and later on of the entire Surgical Department."
Then I go on to page 3, page 21 of the document book:
"Dr. Beiglboeck described to me the purpose and execution of the prescribed experiments. For these experiments only volunteers had been taken and they had received increased rations for some time. He said that he had conducted the experiments in way that they could not cause any serious general damage."
Then I continue on the same page. He says:
"He said that he had himself undertaken or supervised the after-treatment of the experimental subjects and that it had been surprising to observe how rapidly they recovered from the anhydremic condition to subjective well-being. Immediately after mis return he told me that he was glad that he had not a single death to regret."
Then I omit one sentence and continue:
"Moreover, knowing his mentality and his concept of the medical profession, I could believe and understand his bersion to the assignment end his satisfaction with the humane execution of the experiments. I assume that Dr. Beiglboeck already knew me well enough at that time to confide to me frankly and without restraint these matters which distressed him so much."
And then in the last paragraph:
"I should like to add that in our hospital wounded Americans and wounded Englishmen were tended and treated with the same care and the same interest as our own wounded soldiers and in this connection I can name our patients Major Olen Bryant (0789090 T 41) and Lt. Robert F. Horan (0773385 T 43/44) of the American Air Force, who lay in my department for some considerable time before the collapse."
And the next document which I offer as Exhibit No. 33 is in Document Book 1, page 90.
THE PRESIDENT: What is the number of that document?
DR. STEINBAUER: Document 22, page 90, Exhibit 33. This is an article from the First Medical university Clinic in Vienna on liver punctures by Dr. Walter Kofler. I shall only read one sentence, page 2, Document page 91 of the document book, at the top:
"Performed after a well-administered local anesthesia, the liver puncture is nearly painless and hardly inconveniences the patient."
THE PRESIDENT: Counsel, it is now time to go into recess. At this time the Tribunal will recess until two o'clock. It will reconvene at two o'clock. The Tribunal will now be in recess.
(A recess was taken.)