I am not reproaching you for that. I myself, was in prison in Hitler's time, the Gestapo repeatedly got me out of my bed and I can understand very easily. (To Mr. Hardy): Please do not interrupt me, Mr. Hardy. If you lost your wife .....
THE PRESIDENT: The counsel desires to make an objection to your question and he is entitled to be heard.
MR. HARDY: Your Honor, I think other witnesses could perhaps testify as to the character of the witness Tschofenig, that is not the problem of the defense counsel, if he desires to testify to the character he may take the witness stand end do so. Whether or not the witness is "intelligent or fanatic" it is not for the defense counsel to state from this podium.
TEE PRESIDENT: The statements contained in counsel's address to witness were not proper questions to be propounded to the witness. The counsel will simply propound questions to the witness, which the witness can answer properly as testimony in the case, then the matter will proceed in a more orderly manner and somewhat faster.
BY DR. STEINBAUER:
Q Witness, due to the tragic fate which you suffered yourself and the fate especially which befell you with the death of your wife, are you not especially filled with hatred?
A That is not correct, I remained a human being even in a concentration camp and yet now too.
Q I have to tell you, witness, that one of your compatriots, Kogon, wrote an excellent book and pointed out in particular that the concentration inmates had feelings of hatred.
A That is probably a literary necessity for as author.
MR. HARDY: Your Honor, if the Defense Counsel is quoting Kogon's book and is quoting passages which he has introduced, which I have called to the attention of the Tribunal, it is out of context and I request that he be required to submit the passages in the book to the witness, Tschofenig, so that the witness himself may be properly informed, so that he may answer the questions intelligently.
THE PRESIDENT: The objection is overruled, counsel may proceed with the questions. If he desires to call particular attention to any particular page of Kogon's book, he may do so, the objection is overruled. He may proceed.
BY DR. STEINBAUER:
Q On page 52, witness, perhaps you could read out slowly so all of us can hear it.
A "Most of the people in the camp were filled with an unimaginable desire for revenge, the spiritual reaction of helplessness; tortured men raked their brains for new exaggerated much worse tortures which they wanted to inflict sometimes in the future on those who now reacted their whims on them. The thirst for revenge was directed towards the entire National Socialistic Regime and its followers." If I may now make a remark?
Q Yes , do.
A Human beings, people who carry such thoughts along with them are lone wolfs and they did not belong to the group of concentration camp inmates in general, because a human being did not remain alone in a concentration camp by himself. So, he was not hopeless and helpless because he carried that all in common and because he was conscious of the fact that this regime approached its end.
Q. That is the opinion that many people had outside of the concentration camp too, witness.
Now, another question, witness, a very respectable physician appeared here, a Czech, and he reported that the most amazing rumors were current in the camp and there was a mass psychosis in the camp; is that correct?
AAt what time?
Q Well especially at the critical time in 1944 and later on.
A In 1944 rumors arose because transports of invalides were made and in 1945 the rumors were well founded because his own experiences let the thought arise in the mind of every prisoner that the regime, at its end, contemplated the complete liquidation of all inmates.
Q If we now take these two conceptions, mass psychosis and hatred and if we combine these two and I furthermore tell you that in your first interrogation you said yourself, "I could not have direct insight into the experimentation station" and if I furthermore tell you that all witnesses with whom I spoke assured me expressedly that nobody died as a result of the experiments, I am therefore asking you do you not consider it possible that unconsciously you were subject to that mass psychosis?
A I did not have direct insight into the experimental station, I was not and am not subject to mass psychosis and it is a fact that without exaggeration I can answer for these statements here before the court and I can stand by them.
Q Well, now, whatever you think, I am now going on to your individual statements, you were interrogated twice; is that correct?
A I was interrogated three times. The first time due to my report to the police; the second time by a representative of the Vienna State Police and the third time by the representative of the Prosecution of the Court here.
Q. Can you tell me the name of the gentlemen?
A The name of the representative of the Police I can not tell you.
Q. But, the last one who interrogated you?
A In Klagenfurt....
Q No, I mean on 14 May 1947.
A In Klagenfurt, I was interrogated by one Dr. Alexander.
Q Thank you very much. The first time you were interrogated on 7 February 1946?
A The first time it was I who made the report.
Q Alright, witness, we should not misunderstand each other - the 9344.
time of the Tribunal is precious; here in this file there are two interrogations, one of the 7 of February 1946 and one which the physician, Dr. Alexander, conducted on May 14, 1946 in Klagenfurt; now let us speak about your first statement; did you know a certain Dr. Rascher?
A Yes.
MR. HARDY: Your Honor, I request that the witness be given the two copies of the affidavit he signed in Germany.
THE PRESIDENT: The affidavits which the witness made in the German language will be handed to him.
DR. STEINBAUER: I don't have them, Your Honor.
THE PRESIDENT: I understand that, but they should be available in the office of the Secretary General.
MR. HARDY: One is Document Book No. 5, Your Honor.
DR. STEINBAUER: That is illegible, it is here.
MR. HARDY: The other one is a supplemental exhibit and was just put in recently.
DR. STEINBAUER: Your Honor, I have only one cony. I could get only one copy of the document book and that is illegible.
THE PRESIDENT: The Tribunal will be in recess in a few moments, and when it is in recess these copies can be procured from the office of the Secretary General.
Alright, the Tribunal will be in recess for a few moments.
(A recess was taken.)
THE MARSHAL: The Tribunal is again in session.
THE PRESIDENT: Counsel may proceed.
BY DR. STEINBAUER:
Q. Witness, did you know Dr. Rascher?
A. Yes.
Q. Now I would like to hand you your two affidavits.-the originals.
(Documents submitted to witness)
If you will look at your statement of the 7th of 1946, you will agree with me if I say that you begin by speaking of Dr. Rascher's experiments?
A. Yes.
Q. And you will also agree with me if I say that you and your testimony with the same experiments?
A. Yes.
Q. Did you often see Dr. Rascher and Dr. Beiglboeck together?
A. No.
Q. Was Dr. Rascher still there?
A. No, Dr. Rascher was not there.
Q. Then there is no connection between Dr. Rascher and Dr. Beiglboeck?
A. The two stations had a connection.
Q. That is, they were in the same place?
A. Dr. Rascher's station was related to the Luftwaffe experiments. Through Professor Eppinger's visit to this Luftwaffe station, the sea water experimental station was set up.
Q. Here during the trial it was stated that on the 20th of July 1944 this arrangement was spoken of for the first time; Eppinger was there in August. I ask you, is it not possible that you confused Professor Eppinger with some one else, perhaps with Dr. Beiglboeck, who was Eppinger 's assistant, whom you did not know as yet at the time?
Please think; it is impossible that Eppinger was there at that time.
A. I know of the setting up of this station; I learned of it only when Professor Eppinger was in Dachau at the Luftwaffe Station visiting Dr. Ploekner.
Q. That was Beiglboeck, Eppinger's assistant, who talked to Ploekner. Did you know Eppinger?
A. No, I did not know Eppinger. The visit of Professor Eppinger was announced to the camp by a prisoner.
Q. That was Lebersdorfer?
A. Yes. The prisoner Lebersdorfer was a student of Professor Eppinger.
Q.- Yes, very true, And he talked to Eppinger in August?
A.- Yes.
Q.- Then you do not exclude the possibility of a mistake. Eppinger was there, but you can't say exactly when he was there?
A.- I cannot give the date, but Prof. Eppinger was there. The prisoner Lebersdorfer recognized him and told me personally that after he, Lebersdorfer spoke to the Professor, he expressed astonishment at finding a former student among these criminals.
Q.- Yes, that is true, Was Beiglboeck there?
A.- I don't know.
Q.- In any case Eppinger was there and talked to Lebersdorfer?
A.- Yes.
Q.- Now we will go on. In this affidavit you say that 60 gypsies were brought from Sachsenhausen.
A.- The camp learned that prisoners were to come from Sachsenhausen for these experiments and only after they arrived was it learned where they came from, but within the camp it was always said the prisoners from Sachsenhausen.
Q.- But they really weren't from Sachsenhausen?
A.- I myself did not ask any of the persons who were used for these experiments where they came from when they came to Dachau.
Q.- Then when you say 60 gypsies came from Sachsenhausen, that might be incorrect?
A.- It was a fact known in the camp that these people came from another camp to Dachau for the experiments.
Q.- The second time you say there were not 60 but 80 to 90. Which figure is right?
A.- Every day I had transports for examination. In addition to the expected prisoners there were others for fluoroscopic examination, and that is included in the figure which I gave here in my statement.
Q.- Then those are people from various transports?
A.- No, from one transport.
Q.- Then if you look at your testimony you say a hunger cure was prescribed at the beginning. Is that not a misunderstanding? Actually the people had to get especially good food at the beginning of the experiment?
A.- I had nothing to do with this station and the diet of the prisoners, but it was known in the hospital that a distinction was made between the experimental subjects as well as between food and treatment -
Q.- You cannot say whether there was a starvation diet at the beginning?
A.- It was known in the camp that the prisoners had different food, or less food, for a few days.
Q.- But you don't know anything about this from your own observation?
A.- No, I was not at this station.
Q.- Then you say the people were given a salt diet. You are an intelligent man, Mr. Tschofenig. Think that over. An experiment was being conducted here to make sea water drinkable, and conditions of distress at sea were to be imitated. And we can prove by showing tables that the sea emergency rations contained as little salt as possible. Can you imagine that Beiglboeck gave these people a salt diet?
A.- Salt water experiments -- and apparently salt water was included in the food as was said in the hospital. I had nothing to do with the food or with this particular station, and therefore I cannot say that any particular thing was given to the people.
Q.- Then you say further they were given salt injections as a torture. These salt injections were always given at the end of the experiments to break off the experiment for medical reasons. Do you think it is possible, or don't you think you are mistaken when you say these were given as torture?
A.- The prisoners who came to me during the experiment said that they were given injections and other things.
Q.- Then you say you saw cases of rage.
A.- No, I did not see any cases, but I heard of one particular case.
Q.- Then you say Beiglboeck delivered the so-called troublemakers to the SS. Can you tell me whom he turned over to the SS and why?
A.- Every experimental station had people who resisted. They were either to submit or they were turned over to the camp authorities. In this attack which I heard about, measures were taken which were to pacify the person according to the methods which prevailed in the camp.
Q.- Where was this done?
A.- At the station, as I heard.
Q.- Then according to the rumors, Beiglboeck turned people over to the SS. They would have to be missing. The number of experimental subjects would have had to be less.
A.- I was not a nurse. I did not have any statistics on the prisoners. I cannot tell you whether and when these incidents occurred and what the details were.
Q.- Now you say blood was taken frequently and people were treated unscientifically, which led to severe damage, and in one case to death. Do you know who took the blood and how much?
A.- As an outsider in this station I learned that in addition Dr. Beiglboeck's Luftwaffe assistants undertook this medical treatment, not only at Station 1-A, but also at Station 5, the Luftwaffe station in the laboratory.
Q.- Is it true, as you wrote, I had only superficial insight into conditions?
A.- Yes, that is true. I could not have any insight into the immediate occurrence at this station.
Q.- At the end you say other scientists came who were interested in these experiments. It is not clear. Apparently you mean other experiments, not the sea water experiments.
A.- Here I was referring to the experimental stations in general, but particularly the Luftwaffe experimental station.
Q.- Now, we go on to the affidavit of 14 May. You say there that healthy gypsies came from Sachsenhausen. You still maintain that today?
A.- Yes.
Q.- Then you say that the sick people were eliminated.
A.- Yes.
Q.- There must have been an examination then?
A.- Yes.
Q.- Then you say, I knew only the race of these gypsies. I cannot say what their nationality was. Can you tell me what this racial designation was?
A.- This transport was not composed of Germans, Poles, Italians, Frenchmen, but it was called a gypsy transport.
Q.- What insignia did; these men wear?
A.- Mostly the black triangle.
Q.- What else could they have had? You say "for the most part."
A.- Sometimes gypsies had a green triangle.
Q.- That means criminals?
A.- Yes.
Q.- Then you describe your x-ray work. You say Beiglboeck distrusted my findings and objected to them and checked up on them.
A.- Yes.
Q.- Did you have the impression that Beiglboeck understood the business?
A. I will say only one thing. Dr. Beiglboeck twice performed examinations after my findings and expressed different opinions than my findings.
Q.- I assume that Beiglboeck perhaps understood more than you?
A.- We had doctors in the camp who did not even know now to handle a surgical knife or a hypodermic needle.
Q.- Those were war doctors ?
A.- Those were SS doctors.
Q: You say, witness, that you had 300 fluorescope examinations daily and about 100 X-ray pictures?
A: Yes.
Q: How long does this take?
A: That varied. In series examinations it can take two or three minutes.
Q: And how long does an X-ray picture take, with an examination and the findings?
A: With practice, the picture is taken in half a minute, if one has assistants.
Q: Did you have assistants?
A Yes.
Q: Who?
A: An Austrian and a Yugoslav.
Q: Do you know their names?
A: One of them, his first name was Fritz Sachratka from Vienna. The other one had a Yugoslav name - he was from Leibach -- a medical student.
Q: There if I understand it correctly, you must have performed about 11,000 fluoroscope examinations per year?
A: In my monthly report, I always had ever a thousand; sometimes even more.
Q: Is it not possible that you made mistakes in view of this enormous number, especially since you were trying to help your comrades which must have distracted your attention?
A: If one has a sense of duty, mistakes are not impassible, of course, but they are not likely.
Q: Did not Beiglboeck have a Frenchman who helped him with the X-rays?
A: I do not know that. In examining the X-ray pictures, there were various prison doctors working and assistants working in the station.
There were also some Frenchmen in the Luftwaffe station.
Q: Now did this French doctor or you evaluate the findings?
A: I evaluated the findings of the fluoroscope and X-ray pictures. I also gave the findings and passed them on together with the picture. Later, instructions were issued to send only the pictures to the station without an opinion.
Q: How were you supplied with X-ray films?
A: From experience, I saw to it that there was always material available for X-ray pictures.
Q: But you will concede that at that time there was a great shortage?
A: We had supplied from the previous years when the T.B. station was set up and when we received enough of this material.
Q: With what preliminary diagnosis was the X-ray supplied?
A: From the individual stations, prisoners were sent to the stations, prisoners were sent to the stations for X-ray or fluoroscope, but for the most part without remarks as to what systems they had.
Q: Witness, you X-rayed, one person three times, and this was "O.B."; that means no findings. Is it not remarkable that so many X-rays were taken?
A: The fluoroscope was objected to because the patient was sick at the station, and since my findings were negative, the request was made again. In one case, I gave the findings; in other cases, Dr. Beiglboeck performed the fluoroscope himself and X-rays had to be taken.
Q: Don't you think that is a demonstration of special care that he checked your findings?
A: My findings were checked because from the beginning there was the fact that I found too few prisoners suitable for the experiments.
Q: And how did you swindle them?
A: I always tried to help the prisoners -- my comrades.
Q: That is very nice. But how did you do it technically?
A: In the fluoroscopes, I gave opinions, for example, which would make the person unsuitable for this particular experiment, because only healthy prisoners were to be admitted to the experiments.
Q: Do you not believe, witness, that a clinically trained doctor could realize that you were not giving truthful opinions?
A: I frequently had difficulties in the camp because of this activity.
Q: But not at Beiglboeck's time?
A: At Beiglboeck's time I was checked by the camp doctor because of Beiglboeck's mistrust.
Q: Now tell me, if you gave a negative opinion, then Beiglboeck was suspicious?
A: The physical condition of the prisoner who was brought to the station indicated that that there was something wrong with him.
Q: Now let's go on to this one patient whom you recall especially well. Did you talk to this patient when you X-rayed him for the first, second, or third time?
A: During the experiment at this station, one of these experimental subjects came to me several times and I asked him same questions.
Q: In German?
A: Yes, he spoke German
Q: Now why was this man X-rayed the second time?
A: I don't know what the reason was.
Q: Excuse me, but you can tell me, was that before the experiment, during the experiment, or after the experiment?
A: It was during the experiments that this man came for an X-ray examination.
Q: You can remember how tall he was?
A: 1.68 roughly I said approximately.
Q: Well, that is not important. But what did he look like? Was he young or was he old?
A: As far as I can remember, he was medium age, but the condition of the prisoner before and during the experiments changed considerably.
Q: What were these changes?
A: In his appearance and in his mental condition. That was expressed in his answers.
Q: Can you tell us whether this Gypsy had any characteristics?
A: If it were possible, I would give names and other clues, but I remember this person only from the circumstance that every experimental phase left certain characteristics in my memory.
Q: Well, we can't really expect that, but was the man brought in on a stretcher or did he walk?
A: For the first examination, he was only with an escort; later he was brought on a stretcher.
Q: Can you tell me who was the escort?
A: Prisoners from the station.
Q: Well, we know all these nurses. Don't you know who they were?
A: I don't remember exactly whether the nurses brought him or the experimental subjects themselves.
Q: Now when he came to be X-rayed, what did he look like? What was the color of his skin: white, blue, yellow? What did he look like?
A: The skin color of these people was dark brown, a little grey, because of the physical deterioration.
Q: what did his face look like? Was it swollen or was it sunken?
A: It was more sunken.
Q: You remember this man very well. You even know his weight -
A: Height.
Q: Yes, height, that is what I mean. What did his eyes look like? Were they shiny or dull?
A: To be honest, in my first or second affidavit, I would have put down more of what I know, but I have already said what I know about this person.
Q: I don't want you to be angry with me, Mr. Tschofenig. I am I am merely doing my duty.
I have to ask these things. Did this man complain to you? Did he say, "I have a headache, a stomachache?" Any other complaints?
A: I do not remember these details.
Q: But it was a remarkable case, wasn't it?
A The remarkable thing was the sudden fluoroscopic examination ordered by the station and -- he was immediately removed and taken back afterwards.
Q Did you have an X-ray machine with a collapsible table?
A Yes.
Q What did you do to give this patient special care?
A Patients who were brought for a fluoroscopic examination on a stretcher were stood up by the assistants behind the machine and were examined in this position because the fluoroscope examination in a lying position was possible but more difficult.
Q Do you remember the respiration of this patient when he was brought to you the last time? Did he breathe deeply or shallowly?
A He breathed like a sick person; his breathing was short.
Q Did the patient vomit?
A No.
Q Did he cough?
A Those are details which you can't possibly expect me to answer truthfully.
Q But you have a good memory; you remember the height of this man although you had 10,000,11,000 people a year. It must have been a special case?
A One notices the height, more especially when one has to deal with a person and put him behind the machine. One can more or less remember his height. But in the dark it is not possible to see the color of bis eyes or the color of his hair or anything else.
Q Did this patient move his limbs or did he just lie there motionless?
A Those are questions that are impossible for me to answer.
Q How many patients did you have at your X-ray station?
A I don't understand your question.
Q How many altogether? How many per year? How many people?
A I can't tell you exactly.
Q Well, approximately.
A In two years there were several thousands, if not more than 15,000.
Q Isn't it possible -- you say there were ninety gypsies and there were forty-four in the experiment -- isn't it possible that this gypsy was originally intended for the experiment and then was put in a different department or block?
AAfter the end of the experiments -- it was recorded on the case history from which block the patient came to the station.
Q Do you know when the sea-water experiment was finished?
A The sea-water experiment, as far as I remember, lasted about six weeks.
Q We have records showing that the last X-rays were on the 11th of September; on the 16th of September the station was dissolved. Do you not believe that the other gypsies, the doctors, the nurses would have learned that a man had died?
A He died three days later. After the experiment the subjects had remained at the station, but immediately after the end some people were taken to the normal hospital for normal treatment.
Q Do you know that gypsies stick together?
A No, I do not.
Q That is too bad. Let's assume it, then. Don't you believe that in such a close community the people would certainly have learned of it if three days after the end of the experiment one of them died?
A Events in a concentration camp are such that oven a neighbor can die without his comrade learning about it.
Q Now, if I say to you that a number of your former comrades are examined at the same time with you, who say under oath that it is impossible that anyone died. Don't you consider it possible that you have made a mistake?
A I am not aware that during the experiment anyone died at this station, but I do remember very well that there was a death three days after the end of the experiment.
It was one of these persons.
Q Witness, you say "heart and lungs negative"; you say in your second affidavit, "I found no pathological symptoms." Now, what did the man die of? Any doctor will say that is impossible.
AAt the internal station we had all cases of sickness. In this case the nurse as well as the doctor did not find any immediate disease, and the opinion already during the fluoroscopic examination which they gave was that this was one of the sea-water experimental subjects.
Q Tell me: who was working at this station where this man was? Who were the doctors and nurses?
AAt the internal station there were No. 3 and No. 7 and No. 9. These persons transferred from the experimental station. And I remember that this person came from Station 9 for fluoroscope examination.
Q Were there only SS doctors there or were there prisoner-doctors, too, Frenchmen, Yugoslavs and so on?
A In the hospital there were only prisoner-doctors working.
Q It is generally known that these foreign doctors were very comradely. I ask you, don't you believe if the man was admitted three days before that ho would have been given water or milk by these foreign doctors, that he would have been given something to eat, or do you believe that the man lay there helpless for three days?
A Every prisoner was given food and help. Every prisoner-doctor did everything he could to help the patients.
Q You are a medical layman, are you not?
A Yes, and as a layman I had to show the SS doctors what an X-ray machine was.
Q That is terrible. But do you believe that Beiglboeck knew an X-ray machine?
A I don't deny it.
Q And do you believe that Beiglboeck could find the beginning stages of TB -- tuberculosis -- more easily than you could?
A We will leave that to the experience of practice in the concent tration camp.
Q Well, then, you agree with me if i say that Beiglboeck had a right to distrust you, because you yourself have admitted that you tried to deceive him, though prompted by honorable motives.
A I have a very high opinion of medical science, but in a concentration camp I had to develop quite a different opinion of these doctors.
Q How often did you see Beiglboeck, talk to him?
A Perhaps two or three times.
Q And how were these meetings? What happened?
A They were not very friendly.
Q And that was because he had to make objections to your x-ray findings?
A Because my findings did not suit his plans.
Q Witness, everyone has enemies. We will leave out the rest of this. Anyhow, you had a Red Triangle.
A Yes.
Q Is it true that after the sea-water experiments, especially in the winter of 1944 and then into the spring of 1945, the mortality rate in Dachau increased considerably?
A Yes.
Q And the number of the sick?
A Yes, in the whole hospital the personnel had typhoid, in the beginning of 1945, and I myself got typhus in April.
Q I ask you, is it not possible that all the experimental subjects who were healthy at the beginning of the experiments and fasted for a few days were healthy but died later because of this disaster in the camp.
A It is possible that prisoners of this experimental station died from the general ----epidemics.