Q Well, in this capacity as Chief of the X-ray station, what were your duties?
AAt the beginning of my activity. I took the usual X-ray pictures and-assisted in the taking of X-rays. When the order of the camp came that all of the camp inmates were to be examined for tuberculosis in 1943 by a fluoroscope, the physicians could, at that time, not accomplish their tasks any more and therefore left it entirely up to the prisoners and, due to that, I was able, through those fluoroscope examinations, to bring prisoners, for whom it was necessary, to the hospital where they could recover a little bit.
Q Was there always a doctor in charge of the X-ray station?
AA t the beginning, there was always a responsible director, a SS physician, who was in charge of the X-ray station and already in 1942 it happened that no responsible SS physician was appointed as director of the X-ray station and, thus, the X-ray station was left to itself.
Q Well then, after 1943, you were quite independent in your position as Chief of the X-ray station, is that correct?
A I was independent to the extent that it concerned the competence of the station itself.
Q. Do you recall a transport which arrived in Dachau in the summer of 1944 containing Gypsy inmates?
A I remember that very well.
Q. Could you tell us something about the disposition of the Gypsies after arrival in Dachau?
A The transport which arrived - on the average, had the normal weight of every prisoner.
Q When did you see them for the first time?
AAccording to the instructions of the camp, I had to take a fluorescope of every transport that arrived in the camp and, in this way, the transport, after they had changed their clothes, came immediately to the hospital, first to the dispensary and then to the X-ray station for fluoroscope.
Q How many of the Gypsies did you exclude from the experiments as physically unfit?
A. Since I had already heard about the projected experimental station before, I tried, as far as possible, to keep some prisoners from the transport out of this. There were, as far as I remember, 15 to 20 of them whom I excluded.
Q. Were there other examinations made to determine their fitness for the experiments?
A. After the fact had been established by my examination of them that there was not a sufficient number for the experimental station, the dispensary, through the cape himself, and the camp physician - determined themselves the fact that they were suitable inasmuch as they were simply examined and transferred to the experimental station.
Q. Were all the experimental subjects used in the experiments considered to be in perfect physical condition?
A. This transport, considering that it was for a concentration camp, can be considered as in good physical condition. That is, they were all able to work.
Q. Were the ones excluded by you in your examinations definitely not used in the experiments, or were they later picked up and used in the experiments?
A. I don't know that any more because the transport was then transferred to an invalid block from where the prisoners were then transferred to the experimental station a few days later.
Q. Do you know Professor Dr. Beiglboeck.
A. Processor Dr. Beiglboeck I saw a few times in the camp and he also came to the X-ray station a few times himself.
Q. Did he examine any of these inmates to your knowledge?
A. Dr. Beiglboeck, you mean?
Q. Yes.
A. Yes, Dr. Beiglboeck, after he heard of the results of the examinations that I got, expressed some suspicion of my results of the 9335a examination and asked me for X -rays, and through the instruction of the camp physician to take as few X-ray pictures as possible because we did not have the material for the, Dr. Beiglboeck again checked the persons whom I had examined.
Q. Well, did any of the persons whom you excluded then become available for the experiments as a result of the examination by Professor Beiglnoeck? Do you know that?
A. My findings-already during the experiment-had been reported as being incorrect to the doctor and then he decided to make his own examination and represented my examination as being incorrect and with that he effected that I myself could not take a fluoroscope alone of these patients any more or of these prisoners who were in the experiments.
Q. Did you ever see Professor Eppinger at the Dachau concentration Camp?
A. I myself, in the hospital, was told by one of my comrades that Professor Eppinger, before the seawater experimental station was established, came as a visitor to the Luftwaffe station and he stayed for two days.
Q . During the time the seawater experiments were being conducted did you examine any of the experimental subjects?
A. During the seawater experiments, sick persons or experimental subjects were also brought to me for examination, and during these examinations Dr. Beiglboeck expressed his mistrust of my results of the examination.
Q . Did you notice any physical change or visible change in the physical condition of the inmates used in the seawater experiments when you examined them during the course of the experiments as opposed to your examination which you conducted prior to the beginning of the experiments?
A. I found out for sure already, after two weeks, that the physical condition had deteriorated considerably due to the experiments.
Q. Did you know of any incidents where the inmates were particularly upset as a result of the experiments?
A. I heard about that and also one case of maniac attack of one of the patients who were in the experimental station.
Q. Do you know whether or not, Mr. Tschefenig, that these experimental subjects were volunteers or was that knowledge ever brought home to you?
A. My personal impression was, from the very beginning, that this transport had been brought to Dachau under false pretense and that the people had been told not that they were going for experiments but for work, and when they found out what it was about everybody tried to get out of it.
Q. Were you able to ascertain the nationalities of the various subjects?
A. I myself was not able to do so. Every day I did up to 300 fluoroscope examinations and 100 X -ray pictures and could talk very little with the prisoners who newly arrived at the camp about their nationality or about their ideas.
Q. Could you tell us approximately when the experiments began end when they were completed or do you specifically recall the dates?
A. The exact date I cannot remember. It was in the summer of 1944 and, as far as I know, the experiments lasted for about six weeks.
Q. Do you know what happened to the experimental subjects used in the experiments after the completion of the experiments?
A. After the completion of the experiments the experimental subjects were examined as to their ability to work or not to work and they were divided into groups. Those who were sick were transferred to the normal block hospitals.
Q. Were any of the inmates used in these experiments-these sea water experiments-at Dachau ill as a result of the experiments?
A. I don't know very much about this since, after the completion of the experiment. I was unable to take a fluoroscope of all of these experimental subjects.
Q. Well, did any of them have to report to you for X -ray after the completion of the experiments?
A. I know that after the completion of the experiments, three of these experimental subjects came to the station for internal diseases.
Q. Do you know for certain that those three subjects were from the experimental station wherein the seawater experiments were conducted?
A. Yes.
Q. When those people came to your station for X-ray, can you describe to the Tribunal their condition?
A. Every patient who was brought to a station which treated internal diseases was in the morning brought for examination to the X-ray station as a new arrival in this station and of those people these three were brought from the station for internal diseases on the next morning to the X-ray station. One of them was no longer able to walk himself. He was on a stretcher and was carried on a stretcher up to the X-ray apparatus.
Q. What symptoms did they show as a result of the X-ray examination; did they show any positive results to the heart and the lungs?
A I still remember very well. I had to state as a result of the examination that just the patient who was brought on a stretcher that his lungs as well as his heart were alright.
Q. Do you know what happened to that inmate who was brought in on a stretcher after you X-rayed him?
A The results of my examination went to the station where the inmates were kept. I received word that it was not necessary to report the result of the examination to the station since the inmate had died, The opinion of the station physician, who was an inmate himself, was that the ultimate cause were the sea-water experiments and that death had been caused by that.
Q Did you receive this information as official?
A This report I received officially through the station, with the instructions to give my report to the secretary's office.
Q Do you know how long after the completion of the sea-water experiment that this subject died; was it a period of two weeks, three or four days or how long; do you recall?
A I remember because after they were transferred to the station for internal diseases it was only three days later that the patient died; it was not a case of typhoid and there were no other symptoms of illness that could be determined.
Q. Were you able to see his charts or records and determine from them the cause of death?
A When I examined him, I saw the curves, the sickness curve myself where the block was mentioned from which he came from, Block 1-A, that was the experimental station, and I could determine that the clinical examinations had given negative results; that wan identical with my examination.
Q. Now, for the benefit of this Tribunal, Mr. Tschofenig, once again are you absolutely sure that this many you refer to died as a result of the sea-water experiments?
A This was the general opinion in the hospital and it is also my own opinion that this patient from the sea-water station died as a result of the experiments.
Q Your Honor, I have no further questions.
THE PRESIDENT: The counsel for the defendant may cross-examine.
CROSS-EXAMINATION BY DR. STEINBAUER:
Q Which religious denomination do you belong to?
A I believe in God.
Q This is a Nazi conception.
A It means that you have no confessional ties and affiliations but still believe in God.
Q Where are you living, in Austria?
AAt Klagenfurt.
Q And where do you live now, in Nurnberg?
A In Nurnberg. I am living at the hotel.
Q. Do you walk around freely?
A Yes.
Q. How does it happen then that the Austrian newspaper wrote, especially your party organ, which is always well informed, "Tschofenig was kidnapped by the British and brought to Nurnberg?"
A That is the case because all officers which I had something to discuss with did so without any interpreters and the summons for a witness, they did not look at the paper which summoned me to come here as a witness, and they treated me as a prisoner or threatened to do so.
Q. Thus you did not like to come to Nurnberg? Speak more slowly and wait until the interpreter is ready.
A I gave testimony when I found out that Dr. Beiglboeck was working in a British hospital in the British zone of Austria before I gave this testimony to the Police.
Q. We shall speak about that later. Witness, at the moment I am only interested in that your party organ writes that the British kidnapped you?
A I was of the opinion that it was sufficient to give an affidavit and in that way to make my statement under oath in Klagenfurt before the Tribunal here and that would be sufficient.
Q Thus, it is possible that you did not want to come before an American Tribunal or that you have reasons to change your testimony in any way?
MR. HARDY: Your Honor, I must object to this, the witness stated he came here voluntarily, he stated through an oversight he was given considerable trouble on his way, he is here now voluntarily and is quartered in the Deutscherhof Hotel and he is going to return to Klagenfurt. There was no coercion or duress exercised over the witness in any way and I want that clear for the record.
THE PRESIDENT: The objection is overruled.
BY DR. STEINBAUER:
Q. Well, witness, in any case your party organ had the impression, otherwise they would not have written that you don't want to go to Nurnberg; is that correct?
A I did not read any newspapers from Austria thus I do not know what was written there.
Q Well, I can tell you what was written; it says that the British government of Corinthia requested you repeatedly to appear, you did not come and thereupon English soldiers came to fetch you; is that correct?
A That is not correct. I received a request to come to Nurnberg, by the British Element, Civilian Affairs, I asked them to transport me back again as quickly as possible, as I am very busy and I d.o not have the time to be away from Congress for a long time and the Corinthia Parliament is in session now.
Q, Well, and there are other big doings going on and it was very necessary that you are not away from home, I can understand that. In my duties as a defense counsel, I also obtained some information about you personally, and got the reply, "Very intelligent, but fanatic."
I am not reproaching you for that. I myself, was in prison in Hitler's time, the Gestapo repeatedly got me out of my bed and I can understand very easily. (To Mr. Hardy): Please do not interrupt me, Mr. Hardy. If you lost your wife .....
THE PRESIDENT: The counsel desires to make an objection to your question and he is entitled to be heard.
MR. HARDY: Your Honor, I think other witnesses could perhaps testify as to the character of the witness Tschofenig, that is not the problem of the defense counsel, if he desires to testify to the character he may take the witness stand end do so. Whether or not the witness is "intelligent or fanatic" it is not for the defense counsel to state from this podium.
TEE PRESIDENT: The statements contained in counsel's address to witness were not proper questions to be propounded to the witness. The counsel will simply propound questions to the witness, which the witness can answer properly as testimony in the case, then the matter will proceed in a more orderly manner and somewhat faster.
BY DR. STEINBAUER:
Q Witness, due to the tragic fate which you suffered yourself and the fate especially which befell you with the death of your wife, are you not especially filled with hatred?
A That is not correct, I remained a human being even in a concentration camp and yet now too.
Q I have to tell you, witness, that one of your compatriots, Kogon, wrote an excellent book and pointed out in particular that the concentration inmates had feelings of hatred.
A That is probably a literary necessity for as author.
MR. HARDY: Your Honor, if the Defense Counsel is quoting Kogon's book and is quoting passages which he has introduced, which I have called to the attention of the Tribunal, it is out of context and I request that he be required to submit the passages in the book to the witness, Tschofenig, so that the witness himself may be properly informed, so that he may answer the questions intelligently.
THE PRESIDENT: The objection is overruled, counsel may proceed with the questions. If he desires to call particular attention to any particular page of Kogon's book, he may do so, the objection is overruled. He may proceed.
BY DR. STEINBAUER:
Q On page 52, witness, perhaps you could read out slowly so all of us can hear it.
A "Most of the people in the camp were filled with an unimaginable desire for revenge, the spiritual reaction of helplessness; tortured men raked their brains for new exaggerated much worse tortures which they wanted to inflict sometimes in the future on those who now reacted their whims on them. The thirst for revenge was directed towards the entire National Socialistic Regime and its followers." If I may now make a remark?
Q Yes , do.
A Human beings, people who carry such thoughts along with them are lone wolfs and they did not belong to the group of concentration camp inmates in general, because a human being did not remain alone in a concentration camp by himself. So, he was not hopeless and helpless because he carried that all in common and because he was conscious of the fact that this regime approached its end.
Q. That is the opinion that many people had outside of the concentration camp too, witness.
Now, another question, witness, a very respectable physician appeared here, a Czech, and he reported that the most amazing rumors were current in the camp and there was a mass psychosis in the camp; is that correct?
AAt what time?
Q Well especially at the critical time in 1944 and later on.
A In 1944 rumors arose because transports of invalides were made and in 1945 the rumors were well founded because his own experiences let the thought arise in the mind of every prisoner that the regime, at its end, contemplated the complete liquidation of all inmates.
Q If we now take these two conceptions, mass psychosis and hatred and if we combine these two and I furthermore tell you that in your first interrogation you said yourself, "I could not have direct insight into the experimentation station" and if I furthermore tell you that all witnesses with whom I spoke assured me expressedly that nobody died as a result of the experiments, I am therefore asking you do you not consider it possible that unconsciously you were subject to that mass psychosis?
A I did not have direct insight into the experimental station, I was not and am not subject to mass psychosis and it is a fact that without exaggeration I can answer for these statements here before the court and I can stand by them.
Q Well, now, whatever you think, I am now going on to your individual statements, you were interrogated twice; is that correct?
A I was interrogated three times. The first time due to my report to the police; the second time by a representative of the Vienna State Police and the third time by the representative of the Prosecution of the Court here.
Q. Can you tell me the name of the gentlemen?
A The name of the representative of the Police I can not tell you.
Q. But, the last one who interrogated you?
A In Klagenfurt....
Q No, I mean on 14 May 1947.
A In Klagenfurt, I was interrogated by one Dr. Alexander.
Q Thank you very much. The first time you were interrogated on 7 February 1946?
A The first time it was I who made the report.
Q Alright, witness, we should not misunderstand each other - the 9344.
time of the Tribunal is precious; here in this file there are two interrogations, one of the 7 of February 1946 and one which the physician, Dr. Alexander, conducted on May 14, 1946 in Klagenfurt; now let us speak about your first statement; did you know a certain Dr. Rascher?
A Yes.
MR. HARDY: Your Honor, I request that the witness be given the two copies of the affidavit he signed in Germany.
THE PRESIDENT: The affidavits which the witness made in the German language will be handed to him.
DR. STEINBAUER: I don't have them, Your Honor.
THE PRESIDENT: I understand that, but they should be available in the office of the Secretary General.
MR. HARDY: One is Document Book No. 5, Your Honor.
DR. STEINBAUER: That is illegible, it is here.
MR. HARDY: The other one is a supplemental exhibit and was just put in recently.
DR. STEINBAUER: Your Honor, I have only one cony. I could get only one copy of the document book and that is illegible.
THE PRESIDENT: The Tribunal will be in recess in a few moments, and when it is in recess these copies can be procured from the office of the Secretary General.
Alright, the Tribunal will be in recess for a few moments.
(A recess was taken.)
THE MARSHAL: The Tribunal is again in session.
THE PRESIDENT: Counsel may proceed.
BY DR. STEINBAUER:
Q. Witness, did you know Dr. Rascher?
A. Yes.
Q. Now I would like to hand you your two affidavits.-the originals.
(Documents submitted to witness)
If you will look at your statement of the 7th of 1946, you will agree with me if I say that you begin by speaking of Dr. Rascher's experiments?
A. Yes.
Q. And you will also agree with me if I say that you and your testimony with the same experiments?
A. Yes.
Q. Did you often see Dr. Rascher and Dr. Beiglboeck together?
A. No.
Q. Was Dr. Rascher still there?
A. No, Dr. Rascher was not there.
Q. Then there is no connection between Dr. Rascher and Dr. Beiglboeck?
A. The two stations had a connection.
Q. That is, they were in the same place?
A. Dr. Rascher's station was related to the Luftwaffe experiments. Through Professor Eppinger's visit to this Luftwaffe station, the sea water experimental station was set up.
Q. Here during the trial it was stated that on the 20th of July 1944 this arrangement was spoken of for the first time; Eppinger was there in August. I ask you, is it not possible that you confused Professor Eppinger with some one else, perhaps with Dr. Beiglboeck, who was Eppinger 's assistant, whom you did not know as yet at the time?
Please think; it is impossible that Eppinger was there at that time.
A. I know of the setting up of this station; I learned of it only when Professor Eppinger was in Dachau at the Luftwaffe Station visiting Dr. Ploekner.
Q. That was Beiglboeck, Eppinger's assistant, who talked to Ploekner. Did you know Eppinger?
A. No, I did not know Eppinger. The visit of Professor Eppinger was announced to the camp by a prisoner.
Q. That was Lebersdorfer?
A. Yes. The prisoner Lebersdorfer was a student of Professor Eppinger.
Q.- Yes, very true, And he talked to Eppinger in August?
A.- Yes.
Q.- Then you do not exclude the possibility of a mistake. Eppinger was there, but you can't say exactly when he was there?
A.- I cannot give the date, but Prof. Eppinger was there. The prisoner Lebersdorfer recognized him and told me personally that after he, Lebersdorfer spoke to the Professor, he expressed astonishment at finding a former student among these criminals.
Q.- Yes, that is true, Was Beiglboeck there?
A.- I don't know.
Q.- In any case Eppinger was there and talked to Lebersdorfer?
A.- Yes.
Q.- Now we will go on. In this affidavit you say that 60 gypsies were brought from Sachsenhausen.
A.- The camp learned that prisoners were to come from Sachsenhausen for these experiments and only after they arrived was it learned where they came from, but within the camp it was always said the prisoners from Sachsenhausen.
Q.- But they really weren't from Sachsenhausen?
A.- I myself did not ask any of the persons who were used for these experiments where they came from when they came to Dachau.
Q.- Then when you say 60 gypsies came from Sachsenhausen, that might be incorrect?
A.- It was a fact known in the camp that these people came from another camp to Dachau for the experiments.
Q.- The second time you say there were not 60 but 80 to 90. Which figure is right?
A.- Every day I had transports for examination. In addition to the expected prisoners there were others for fluoroscopic examination, and that is included in the figure which I gave here in my statement.
Q.- Then those are people from various transports?
A.- No, from one transport.
Q.- Then if you look at your testimony you say a hunger cure was prescribed at the beginning. Is that not a misunderstanding? Actually the people had to get especially good food at the beginning of the experiment?
A.- I had nothing to do with this station and the diet of the prisoners, but it was known in the hospital that a distinction was made between the experimental subjects as well as between food and treatment -
Q.- You cannot say whether there was a starvation diet at the beginning?
A.- It was known in the camp that the prisoners had different food, or less food, for a few days.
Q.- But you don't know anything about this from your own observation?
A.- No, I was not at this station.
Q.- Then you say the people were given a salt diet. You are an intelligent man, Mr. Tschofenig. Think that over. An experiment was being conducted here to make sea water drinkable, and conditions of distress at sea were to be imitated. And we can prove by showing tables that the sea emergency rations contained as little salt as possible. Can you imagine that Beiglboeck gave these people a salt diet?
A.- Salt water experiments -- and apparently salt water was included in the food as was said in the hospital. I had nothing to do with the food or with this particular station, and therefore I cannot say that any particular thing was given to the people.
Q.- Then you say further they were given salt injections as a torture. These salt injections were always given at the end of the experiments to break off the experiment for medical reasons. Do you think it is possible, or don't you think you are mistaken when you say these were given as torture?
A.- The prisoners who came to me during the experiment said that they were given injections and other things.
Q.- Then you say you saw cases of rage.
A.- No, I did not see any cases, but I heard of one particular case.
Q.- Then you say Beiglboeck delivered the so-called troublemakers to the SS. Can you tell me whom he turned over to the SS and why?
A.- Every experimental station had people who resisted. They were either to submit or they were turned over to the camp authorities. In this attack which I heard about, measures were taken which were to pacify the person according to the methods which prevailed in the camp.
Q.- Where was this done?
A.- At the station, as I heard.
Q.- Then according to the rumors, Beiglboeck turned people over to the SS. They would have to be missing. The number of experimental subjects would have had to be less.
A.- I was not a nurse. I did not have any statistics on the prisoners. I cannot tell you whether and when these incidents occurred and what the details were.
Q.- Now you say blood was taken frequently and people were treated unscientifically, which led to severe damage, and in one case to death. Do you know who took the blood and how much?
A.- As an outsider in this station I learned that in addition Dr. Beiglboeck's Luftwaffe assistants undertook this medical treatment, not only at Station 1-A, but also at Station 5, the Luftwaffe station in the laboratory.
Q.- Is it true, as you wrote, I had only superficial insight into conditions?
A.- Yes, that is true. I could not have any insight into the immediate occurrence at this station.
Q.- At the end you say other scientists came who were interested in these experiments. It is not clear. Apparently you mean other experiments, not the sea water experiments.
A.- Here I was referring to the experimental stations in general, but particularly the Luftwaffe experimental station.
Q.- Now, we go on to the affidavit of 14 May. You say there that healthy gypsies came from Sachsenhausen. You still maintain that today?
A.- Yes.
Q.- Then you say that the sick people were eliminated.
A.- Yes.
Q.- There must have been an examination then?
A.- Yes.
Q.- Then you say, I knew only the race of these gypsies. I cannot say what their nationality was. Can you tell me what this racial designation was?
A.- This transport was not composed of Germans, Poles, Italians, Frenchmen, but it was called a gypsy transport.
Q.- What insignia did; these men wear?
A.- Mostly the black triangle.
Q.- What else could they have had? You say "for the most part."
A.- Sometimes gypsies had a green triangle.
Q.- That means criminals?
A.- Yes.
Q.- Then you describe your x-ray work. You say Beiglboeck distrusted my findings and objected to them and checked up on them.
A.- Yes.
Q.- Did you have the impression that Beiglboeck understood the business?
A. I will say only one thing. Dr. Beiglboeck twice performed examinations after my findings and expressed different opinions than my findings.