THE PRESIDENT: Do any of the defense counsel want to ask any questions? Do any of the prosecution counsel wish to cross examine? Then the witness can retire.
(The witness retired) DR MARX: Then I should like to call the witness Wurzbacher, if he is available; is he not? I don't know which one of the witnesses is still available. Is there anyone? THE MARSHAL: Frau Streicher is available. THE PRESIDENT: Is not the witness Wurzbacher here? THE MARSHAL: I Will see, sir. He was not here awhile ago. He was not called for. THE PRESIDENT: What other witnesses have you got, Dr. Marx? DR. MARX: The wife of the defendant could be called as a witness, now. THE PRESIDENT: Very well, let her be called, then. THE MARSHAL: The witness Strobel is available, now. THE PRESIDENT: Dr. Marx wants to call Mrs Streicher. DR. MARX: Excuse me, Mr. President. If it is rather difficult to call Mrs. Streicher, then the witness--
ADELE STREICHER, a witness took the stand and testified as follows: BY THE PRESIDENT:
Q Will you give me your full name?
Q Will you repeat this oath after me: the pure truth and will withhold and add nothing.
(The witness repeated the oath) THE PRESIDENT: You may sit down. BY DR. MARX:
Q You are a born TAPPE, from Magdeburg?
Q Were you a member of the NSDAP or of the Frauenschaft?
Q When did you become Mr. Streicher's secretary and for how long were you in that job?
A On the 7th of June 1940, I became Julius Stretcher's secretary and I remained in that job until the end of the war.
Q And during that period, you were continuously on his side? Streicher? Streicher?
Q What did that correspondence mainly consist of?
Q What was Streicher's activities during that period of time, of the period of five years?
A Mainly physical work; that is, agriculture and gardening, and from time to time he wrote articles for the "Der Stuermer." he at one time absent from the farm? or was he at one time absent from the farm? entire night.
the Party to visit Streicher?
Q How do you know that?
A From conversations and then I experienced myself when Dr. Goebbels visited the farm, that Julius Streicher told him "Doctor, you dare to come here? Don't you know that there is a prohibition by the Party to visit me?"
Q When did the visit of Dr. Ley and Dr. Goebbels occur?
A Dr. Ley came on the 7th of May 1944 to the farm. The visit of Dr. Goebbels occurred on the 4th of June 1944. the object of the conversation?
A Both visits were of a definitely unofficial character. Dr. Ley wanted mainly to know how Julius Streicher was doing personally and no political questions were treated. Ley said only "Streicher, the Fuehrer is waiting for you."
Q And what did Streicher say to that? was happy as a farmer and Ley should tellthe Fuehrer that Streicher had no further wishes. At the visit of Dr. Goebbels the subject of the conversation was mainly why Julius Streicher had been released from office as Gauleiter, and Dr. Goebbels was of the opinion that Streicher should return into the circle of old Party members but he gave him the same answer, "Tell the Fuehrer I have no wishes."
Q During these conversations, were you always present?
Q Was not the Jewish question a subject of conversation?
or in the concentration camps? pressed in articles in "Der Stuermer" or intended to express and at these occasions; didn't he also speak about the manner in which he thought the solution of the Jewish problem could be found? certainty that he did not expect the Jewish question to be solved by acts of violence but by the emigration of Jews from Europe and their settlement in territories outside of Europe.
Q Did Mr. Streicher keep up contact with leading people; was he in correspondence with leading personalities of the Party or of the State? connection. this has any connection: Himmler, Heydrich, Bormann, or other leading men of the police or the SS or the Gestapo?
A No, with these men, with the exception of one letter from Mr. Himmler there was never any correspondence from the others.
Q And what was the cause for that letter? of war who were employed on our farm were treated too well. lian workers on the farm? and one Slav girl were employed. They were all treated very well and very human Each personal service for which Julius Streicher asked, each worker for which he asked personally, for each of these services they got extra present, cigarettes and money. With some of the Frenchmen, such a good relation developed during the years that they were there, they assured us that they would visit Julius Streicher after the war with their families.
Q Didn't Streicher finally receive credible knowledge about these mass execution in the East?
A I believe in 1944. It occured in 1944 when he found out about it through Swiss newspapers. Officially, we were never informed about it.
Q But it is asserted that before, already, he had had knowledge?
Q You don't know anything about it?
Q You once led the conversation to the fact that in Magdeburg, from the 9th to the 10th of November during 1938, you witnessed a demonstration against the Jews and that you were very indignant about it.
Is that true? place. Julius Streicher at that time got very excited during that conversation and said such nonsense had occurred in Nurnberg also. That was not anti-Semitism: that was just stupidity. of the publishing firm and left these things to the manager? house nor in the firm and the gentlemen of the firm were always disappointed when they spoke or reported or wanted to report about matters of accounting and Streicher told them, "Leave me alone with your business matters. There are other things besides money that are important."
Q How did he take care of the household expenses, then?
A I received 1,000 marks every month from the firm. That took care of the household, of presents, and so on. acquired on the basis of pressure against a Jewish banker?
A That is quite impossible. I consider it quite impossible that Julius Streicher acquired shares that way. I believe that he doesn't even know what a share looks like.
Q Did he tell you anything about it? married?
A (No response)
Q Did you understand the question?
A Yes. Julius Streicher wanted to take part in the struggle in Nurnberg. I wanted to be with him. He wanted to give me his name before we went. We wanted to die together. did you go from there?
A First we wanted to go to Nurnberg, and that was refused. Then we went in the direction of Munich. In Munich we were told to continue in the direction of Passau.
From Passau they sent us to Berchtesgaden; from Berchtesgaden they sent us to Kitzbuehl. together did not come about?
Q And what was that conversation?
THE PRESIDENT: I don't think youshould go into that, Dr. Marx. BY DR. MARX:
Q Well then, you do not need to answer. Only one more question. power of attorney which meant that that man could dispose of it as he wanted?
A Yes, that is true. He gave the power of attorney to the manager of the firm, whoever it was at that time, and that meant full confidence in whatever he wanted to do.
DR. MARX: Mr. President, I have no more questions.
THE PRESIDENT: Do any of the defendants' counsel want to ask any questions?
SIR DAVID MAXWELL-FYFE: No.
THE PRESIDENT: Then the witness can retire, and the court will adjourn until 9:30 tomorrow morning.
(The Tribunal adjourned until 30 April 1946 at 0930 hours.)
(Mr. Dodd, of the American Prosecution, approached the lectern.)
THE PRESIDENT: Mr. Dodd, were you going to deal with these questions?
MR. DODD: Yes, Mr. President, I am prepared to do so. Shall I proceed to take up those documents over which we have some difficulty?
THE PRESIDENT: If you will, yes.
MR. DODD: Altogether, there are some 118 documents submitted on behalf of the Defendant von Schirach. As a result of our conversations, we have agreed on all but -- I believe the number is twelve.
The first group, Nos. 30, 31, 45, 68, 73, 101, 109, 124 and 133, are all excerpts from a book entitled, "Look, the Heart of Europe." written by a man named Stanley Maclatchie. They are excerpts referring to the Hitler Youth organization, and we do object to them on the ground that they are all irrelevant and immaterial here. They describe Hitler Youth meetings at home and Hitler health programs and Hitler athletic competition and Hitler Youth Land Service and that sort of thing. There are general descriptions by Mr. Maclatchie of some activities of the Hitler Youth organization. They are all, I say, from that same book -- none of them written by the Defendant himself. They were published in 1937.
Then, document 118A is a letter. It is unsigned, except that it is typewritten. It is by Colin Ross and his wife. It appears to be a suicide note setting forth the reasons why Ross and his wife intended to commit suicide. We have been unable to determine its probative value and do not see any probative value in it, in so far as the issues affecting this Defendant are concerned. He apparently was acquainted with the Defenda von Schirach and that is the claim, I assume of Counsel for von Schirach, tha it sheds some light on von Schirach's attitude. But it is not clear to us.
The third is 121. This is a quotation from the United States Army newspaper, The Stars and Stripes, issue of the 21st of February, 1946.
It is about the training of young people in Yugoslavia at the present time. With respect to this we also say We believe it to be immaterial here and not relevant and not bearing on the issues concerning this Defendant as charged in the indictment. documents concerning which we have any controversy.
THE PRESIDENT: Eleven.
MR. DODD: I am sorry. I said twelve.
DR. SAUTER (Counsel for Defendant von Schirach): Mr. President, the first group of documents to which the Prosecution has objected are from a book by an American, Maclatchie. This American, as he writes himself in the book, is of Scottish descent, and in the year 1936 -- that was the year of the Olympic Games -- visited Germany, and he was in a position to get himself a picture of conditions in Germany and of the development of the German people during the first years of the Hitler regime, and here he describes the impressions he received. introduction -- the preface of the book --shows that the man that impelled him to write that book was von Schirach. The Defendant, as he will explain in the course of interrogation here in court, very early in his life began a pleasant and friendly attitude toward the United States, and this book by Maclatchie is one of the many means which the Defendant von Schirach used for that purpose. The author admits in his book himself, in the preface, that the material for the book was received, at least the larger part of it -from the Defendant von Schirach. And that fact, these proceedings, seems to be Important concerning the production of proof for the defense of von Schirach. It lends to the book an entirely different importance than if it had been written independently by von Schirach. Therefore we have to consider the descriptions and impressions of this book as the impressions of the Defendant von Schirach himself. That is the main reason I have submitted the book with the request that I be permitted to quote individual passages, particularly those concerning the youth, in the course of my presentation.
have less to do with and are not in immediate connection with the youth leadership of the Defendant von Schirach that I have not mentioned, but only a few short extracts which exclusively describe the activity and aim of the Defendant von Schirach and which, besides, will show you gentlemen what impression even a foreigner could gain from this activity, although he had come to Germany already with a certain prejudice and lost that prejudice only after getting his own impressions.
That, Mr. President, is what I wanted to say to the first group, which the Prosecutor mentioned under Numbers 30 to 33.
is the last letter which the explorer Colin Ross left. If the prosecutor objects to the fact that that letter has no signature, then, in my opinion, that is not particularly important. What we have submitted there is the original copy of that letter, and the original copy was found among the papers of Dr. Colin Ross.
Now, the Prosecution asks, What has that farewell letter by Dr. Colin Ross to do with the defense of Schirach? I ask you to recall that frequently one has spoken here about that Dr. Colin Ross. That is the explorer--I believe he was an American by birth, but I do not know it for sure. That is the explorer who not only for many years was a close friend of Schirach but a man whom the defendant von Schirach used again and again in order to prevent or help prevent the outbreak of a war with the United States, and later, in order to terminate that war and to bring about peace with theUnited States. clarified in detail, I believe.
THE PRESIDENT: When was it dated?
DR. SAUTER: One moment please. The date is 30 April 1945. I consider the letter important for the reason that here a man, at the very moment before he commits suicide with his wife because he is desperate about the future of Germany, because, I say, the man right in the face of death is again concerned that, together with the defendant von Schirach, he had continuously tried to bring about peace with the United States, and 1 believe, gentlemen, that-
THEPRESIDENT: Where was he at the time when, as I understand you to say, he committed suicide?
DR. SAUTER: The defendant von Schirach -
THE PRESIDENT: No, no, the man Who wrote the letter.
DR. SAUTER: The defendant von Schirach had a small house in Upper Bavaria in the Kurweld am Waldsee, and in that house Colin Ross lived at the time with his wife, and it was in that house which belonged to von Schirach that he committed suicide. proceedings if it were read.
Then, gentlemen, the third group to which the Prosecution objects is again only one number, a comparatively short article from Stars and Stripes.
That is Number 121, and that number, which I shall submit in the original in the course of my presentation, is of 21 February 1946; that is, of this year. It explains in detail how the education of youth is re-organized now in Jugoslavia by Marshal Tito, and the defendant von Schirach stresses the importance of this document because it proves that in Jugoslavia a definitely military education of youth has been started this very year. The defendant von Schirach therefore desires to make a comparison between the kind of youth education which he was in charge of and the Jugoslavian education of youth which has been decided upon this year and which goes much further than did the program of the defendant von Schirach at any time.
MR. DODD: Mr. President, may I make just one or two short observations? I realize that ordinarily, the Tribunal does not want to hear from Counsel twice, but there are certain matters I want to clear up.
First of all, the book, "Look, the heart of Europe", which may have been written by the man MacLatchie, who Counsel says is a man of Scotch ancestry. I think it is important that the Tribunal know that it was published in Germany. I am sure that Counsel did not mean to imply that it was an American publication, because, other than having been written by this man, it was published over here after he had attended the Olympic Games in 1936.
THE PRESIDENT: In the German language, I suppose?
MR. DODD: Yes, and the German title was "Sieh, das Herz Europas". no one knows whether Ross committed suicide or not. At least, so far as the Allied countries are concerned. His body has never been found and only this note which Counsel says was found among his effects.
DR. SAUTER: Mr. President, may I make another remark concerning the first group? That book by Maclatchie appeared in a German publishing firm. The defendant von Schirach himself intervened to make sure that that book could appear, so that again speaks for the fact that von Schirach had a certain purpose in view. That purpose was to cause a certain enlightenment between American and Germany and to smooth the contrast which he was afraid would one day lead to war.
The book by Maclatchie did not only appear in German, but also in the English language, and it was distributed in large numbers in England and in the United States.
It also appeared, of course, in German and was distributed in Germany.
THE PRESIDENT: Would you tell the Tribunal what these other documents are that Mr. Dodd has not objected to? We understand that there are 160 documents, which he has not objected to. What are they all about, and how long are they?
DR. SAUTER: I have submitted only one document book. That is, 1 have limited myself to the absolute necessities.
THE FRESIDENT: Of how many pages?
DR. SAUTER: Altogether, 134. Of course, some cover only one half or one third of a page. They are mainly short quotations. of proof concerning the activities of the defendant von Schirach as Reich Youth Leader can only be dealt with by showing to the Tribunal just what the defendant von Schirach told the youth of Germany, what his teachings were, what his directives to his subordinate leaders were in detail, and in that connection it is necessary for me--and I believe that the Prosecution realizes that also-to submit a short report covering the entire period during which von Schirach was Reich Youth Leader so as to show that the opinions and theories of the defendant von Schirach during the last year of his activity as Reich Youth Leader were exactly the same as during his first year. He is one of the few within the Party who did not become more severe, because in the years he did nothing to extremes, such as most of the others, and that I want to show by these comparatively short excerpts.
THE PRESIDENT: Then you have the two supplementary applications for witnesses, have you not?
DR. SAUTER: Yes.
THE PRESIDENT: You better deal with those, had you not?
DR SAUTER: Yes.
THE PRESIDENT: Well, one of them, I understand, is a person who made an affidavit which has been used by the Prosecution.
DR. SAUTER: I believe that is the witness Ueberreiter.
THE PRESIDENT: I do not think so. I think it is the other one, is it not? Who are the two?
DR. SAUTER: One is, I believe-
THE PRESIDENT: Marsalek:
DR. SAUTER: No, not Marsalek, Ueberreiter. Marsalek, Mr. President--
THE PRESIDENT: I have your application before me for Marsalek. You do not want Marsalek?
DR. SAUTER: No, that must be an error.
THE PRESIDENT: Taken, the 15th of April, 1946. Anyhow, you do not want him?
DR. SAUTER: No.
THE PRESIDENT: Well, then you only want one, do you?
DR. SAUTER: Yes.
THE PRESIDENT: And that is Ueberreiter?
DR. SAUTER: Ueberreiter, Mr President.
THE PRESIDENT: Has the Prosecution any objection to him?
MR. JUSTICE JACKSON: No, we have not, Your Honor. That affidavit was introduced by us in connection with the Kaltenbrunner case, an affidavit by Ueberreiter.
THE PRESIDENT: You have no objection?
MR. JUSTICE JACKSON? No objection.
THE PRESIDENT: Very well. Thank you Dr. Sauter. We will consider your application and respective documents and the witness. We will consider your application, and we will now proceed with the case of Streicher.
MR. JUSTICE JACKSON: May it please the Tribunal; I should like to make a motion to the case of Stretcher. I desire to move that Streicher's testimony found at pages 8494, 8495, and 8496 of April 26th be expunged from the record, and on page 8549 of yesterday's testimony in which Streicher makes charges against the United States Army of mistreatment. If this testimony is irrelevant, it has no place in this record. If it is relevant, then it calls for an answer at considerable time and at considerable difficulty in view of the redeployment of people in the service of the United States. In our view it is utterly irrelevant. It was not responsive to any question and, no matter how it should be resolved, it would not help to determine whether Streicher is or is not guilty of the offenses charged here, but it is not a pretty charge to leave unanswered in a record for all time. but the United States has tried to conduct this war within the rules and the forces of the United States have some sensitivity about their record in that respect. whether we should take any steps in reference to this, I move that this be expunged as immaterial and irrelevant testimony and, of course, if it is irrelevant, we are excused from any duty to deal with it; if not, we willknow that we must.
THE PRESIDENT: Dr. Marx, do you wish to say anything about that?
DR. MARX: (Counsel for defendant Streicher): Excuse me, Mr. President. Unfortunately, I did not understand the motions made by Justice Jackson completely because at that moment I was busy doing something else. As much as I understood, he dealt with-
THE PRESIDENT: I can tell you what it was. The motion was that passages on pages 8494, 8495, and 8496, and on page 8549, in which the defendant Streicher made certain charges against the United States Army, be expunged from the record.
DR. MARX: I understand. I would like to say, from the point of view of the defense, that I agree that these passages be dropped because I am of the opinion that for the defense of the defendant they are in no way relevant.
THE PRESIDENT: The passages to which Mr. Justice Jackson has drawn our attention are in the opinion of the Tribunal highly improper statements laid by the defendant Streicher. They are, in the opinion of the Tribunal, entirely irrelevant, and they have been admitted by counsel for the defendant Streicher to be entirely irrelevant, and they will, therefore, be expunged from the record.
And now Dr. Marx.
DR. MARX: May I now, with the permission of the Tribunal, continue with the calling of witnesses? I call now the witness Friedrich Strobel. follows: BY THE PRESIDENT:
Q Will you repeat this oath after me: I swear by God, the Almighty and Omniscient, that I will speak the pure truth and will withhold and add nothing.
(The witness repeated the oath.)
THE PRESIDENT: You may sit down. BY DR. MARX: of the lawyers Organization in Nurnberg? have spoken; is that correct? at that occasion concerning the demonstrations of the 9th of November, 1938?
A He stated, "I would not have done it that way. In such a manner it is impossible to suppress a power like world Jewry." Then he added, "What happened has happened", and some more phrases of that kind. Streicher in all public objected against that action, which had been ordered by the top?
A. Yes. Streicher frequently spoke against measures and directives of the Government when he was of a different opinion. Thus he did it also on that occasion. I had the impression that apparently one had passed over him, because in his speech there was an undertone that indicated, that there would be disagreeable consequences. had a good moment once, or that he knew how harmful that action was, or whether his vanity was injured, or maybe it was that he felt that a quick solution of the Jewish problem would take away his importance.
Q. Witness, these are opinions which you are stating here and not facts, and I did not ask you about that.
A. Well, that was my impression.
Q. All right, I ask you now: On the 9th and 10th of November, 1938, were you present in Nurnberg?
A. Yes. I don't remember it for usre, but I believe it was from the 8th to the 9th when that action happened, because on the 7th of November von Rath was shot; on the 8th he died, and the night after these things occurred.
THE PRESIDENT: We needn't argue about whether it was the 8th or the 9th. It doesn't really matter, does it? BY DR. MARX:
Q. The question which I want to put to you now is, what observations did you make after that night during which the demonstration against the Jewish population took place on the following morning, and then later about the attitude of the population in Nurnberg toward these demonstrations?
A. I was informed about that action only by the personnel in my office. Thereupon I walked into the city, looked around in the streets, and in front fo all the damaged stores there were people standing. I had the impression that the majority of the population, the great majority, was quiet. They shook their heads, looked at each other, and muttered something. Then they walked away. But, generally, one had the impression that you should not speak too loudly, and later I found out that people who objected against it were treated rather badly.
Q. But the general impression was, wasn't it, that the population definitely was not in favor of that action, and that general indignation was recognizable, and even if not loud it was there.
A. Yes. The Russian Broadcasting Station expressed it best. They said "Let it be said that it is something in favor of the German people that they did not participate in this action." Most people found out only in the morning after the aftion what had happened.
THE PRESIDENT: What has this got to do with the defendant Streicher?
DR. MARX: Well, the defendant Streicher has been accused that he had shown that he approved of these actions, and that by his speech on the 10th of November he approved it. Streicher also mentioned that that was an action which had been ordered from the top.
THE PRESIDENT: The fact that a number of people in Nurnberg, or even the whole of the people of Nurnberg, disapproved of it wouldn't show that Streicher disapproved of it.
DR. MARX: Yes, but he waid that it could not have been an incitement, because that action had been ordered and directed from the top, whereas, in the case of an incitement, the action would have started out of the mass of the people. That is what he pointed out.
THE WITNESS: May I state my opinion about that? It certainly did not start from the people, because even the SA man who took part in the action did it because there was an order, and it was an organized affair. The assertion of Dr. Goebbels that the German people had risen spontaneously was a libel against the German people.
DR MARX: I have no more questions to this witness, Mr. President.
THE PRESIDENT: Do any other of the defendants' counsel wish to ask him any questions?
(No response)
Does the Prosecution wish to cross examine?
(No response)
DR. MARX: With the permission of the Tribunal, I now call the witness Ernst Hiemer.
THE MARSHAL: There is no witness.
THE PRESIDENT: Is he not there?
THE MARSHAL: We have not witness there.
THE PRESIDENT: He says, Dr. Marx, that he is not there, and that there are no witnesses there.
DR. MARX: Excuse me, Mr. President. The witness Hiemer is right here in the prison, and I talked to him personally.
THE PRESIDENT: Well, did you inform the prison authorities yesterday that you were going to call him?
DR. MARX: I spoke to the Marshal on Monday, saying that Hiemer should be brought up Tuesday, us much as I can recall. There must be a misunderstanding somewhere.
THE PRESIDENT: Well, have you got any other witnesses besides Hiemer?
DR. MARX: Well, yes, the witness Wurzbacher.
THE PRESIDENT: Where is he? Where is Wurzbacher?
DR. MARX: Wurzbacher is also here in the prison.
THE PRESIDENT: Well, while he is being brought, can you take up the time in dealing with your documents?
DR. MARX: Yes. We can do that also.
THE MARSHAL: They will be here in about five minutes.
THE PRESIDENT: Very well. Go on, Dr. Marx.
DR. MARX: Mr. President, before coming to the question of the documents, I should like to point out the following: During the proceedings yesterday afternoon the Prosecution has submitted several documents which were new to me, and I did not have an opportunity yet to state my position with regard to them. Also, I did not have a chance yet to speak to the defendant Streicher about them. about these extraordinarily important documents; and I believe that has to be done in the manner that I have to examine all the articles of the "Stuermer" to see whether it can be found that Streicher has used the various informations from the "Israelitisches Wochenblatt", because his defense was, "I did not believe what I read there."