DR. MARX: I do not consider it necessary anymore.
THE PRESIDENT: Then the Defendant can return to the dock. Dr. Marx, will you continue the Defendant's case?
DR. MARX: I call now, with the permission of the Court, the witness Fritz Herrwerth.
(The witness took the stand.)
THE PRESIDENT: Will you state your full name?
THE WITNESS: Fritz Herrwerth.
THE PRESIDENT: Will you repeat this oath after me: truth, and will withhold and add nothing.
(The witness repeated the oath.)
THE PRESIDENT: You may sit down. DIRECT EXAMINATION BY DR. MARX:
Q. Since when do you know the Defendant Streicher?
A. Since the Party day in 1934.
Q. When did you enter his service and in what function?
A. On the 15th of October, 1934, in Nurnberg. I became his employee -not his personal employee but at that time I was in the municipal motor pool. But I served for Gauleiter Streicher.
Q. When did you leave that service?
A. In August 1943.
Q. For what reason?
A. It was a personal dispute, and mainly due to my fault.
Q. Did you have any other tasks to do for Streicher?
A. Yes.
Q. And which?
A. Well whatever came up. I did agricultural work also at the end.
Q. In other words, you were very often with Streicher and therefore you knew about the most important incidents during that period?
A. Yes. I don't know, however, what you call important incidents. There were things that I don t know about. At least I assume that.
Q. I will ask you later in detail.
29,Apr-A-GES-19-2a
A. Yes, if you please.
Q. The Defendant Streicher is accused to have caused acts of violence against the Jews and to have participated in these acts. Do you know of any such case?
A. Not a single one.
Q. Will you please wait until the end of my question, and then I shall say "end of question." On the 9th of November, 1938, did you drive Streicher back from Munich to Nurnberg, and when?
A. It was on the 19th of November, yes. I do not know the time of the day anymore. Streicher left earlier at that time in Munich, and it may have been about -- I don't know for sure - 9 o'clock.
Q. Did Streicher know already during that ride back that same night that something was to be done against the Jewish population?
conversation between Streicher and the SA Fuehrer Herrvon Obernitz?
Q Where did that conversation take place? When Streicher went to bed in the evening, I was usually with him or the superintendent. On that evening Streicher went to bed earlier than usual. I don't know the reason. And that concluded my work for the day. I went from Mr. Streicher to the Casino of the Gauleitung. That was in the cellar of the Gauleitung Building on Schlageter Strasse. I played cards there. And then the SA Obergruppenfuehrer Herr von Obernitz came and called me, as usual, by the name of Fritz and told me-
THE PRESIDENT: When you see that light go on, it means that you are going too fast. Will you try to speak more slowly?
THE WITNESS: Yes, yes, I will try my best.
A (Continuing) The then SA Obergruppenfuehrer Herr von Obernitz came into the Gauleitung headquarters and told me he had to speak to Mr. Streicher very urgently, and I answered him that Mr. Streicher had already gone to bed. Then he told me, "Then you have to wake him up." He said that he would assume the responsibility; it was unimportant affair. Herr von Obernitz upon my call went to Streicher's apartment. Mr. Streicher's bedroom is above my apartment. I had the keys and, of course, I could got in at any time. through the streets, and I asked Herr von Obernitz about the reason for that. He told me that that night something was going to happen; Jewish apartments were to be destroyed. He did not say anything further to me.
I accompanied Herr von Obernitz to the bed of Mr. Streicher. Herr von Obernitz reported to Streicher about that which had happened that night and was to happen. I cannot recall the details very well any more, but I believe that he said that that night Jewish apartments were to be destroyed. Mr. Streicher, if I may say so, was surprised. He had not known anything about it, and he said literally to Herr von Obernitz, and I remember that very well, very clearly.
"That is wrong. One cannot solve the Jewish question like that. Do what you have been ordered. I do not takepart in it. If anything should occur that you need me, then you can come for me." Upon that, and I can also mention that Herr von Obernitz said, "Hitler has said the SA should be able to let loose their emotions once as retribution for the case which had occurred in Paris in connection with Herr von Rath." Streicher stayed in bed and did not go out during that night.
Q Stop here please. Did von Obernitz mention anything about the fact that synagogues were to be burned?
A I believe so, yes. But, as much as I remember, Streicher refused to do that, too, because the synagogues, as much as I know, were burned by the fire department, and upon orders from Herr von Obernitz.
Q How do you know that?
Q Did you watch it?
Q And how could one assume that the fire department started the fire?
A How that could be assumed I don't know, but I saw it. The people of the fire department started the fire.
Q Well, had you already seen it? Were you there to see how the fire was started or did you arrive when the building was already on fire? already. That's all I can, say. That's true. was afraid of a new wave of incitement on the part of the world press to be started now if the synagogues were burned and did he say that that is why he refused to do it?
A I believe so, yes, but I couldn't say definitely; but, if I remember correctly, they spoke about that.
Q Did Obernitz say from whom he had received the order? to let loose their emotions once. night about that conversation between Obernitz and Streicher?
down from the second floor to my apartment, I told my wife that I would probably be a little late because that night that action was going to be started, and I told her shortly what was going to happen but nothing about the conversation. had been forced to retire there or had retired?
Q Do you remember an incident where the later Mrs. Streicher spoke about the incidents at Magdeburg which had occurred the same night there?
Q Didn't you tell the then Mrs. Merkel that you wouldn't talk about these incidents because Streicher always got very excited about them?
A I couldn't recall that Streicher had said once that he was to have been right in his assumption and that is that a short time after that night he received information, for instance, I don't know through whom, that the glass for the windows had to be bought from Holland again. Streicher said at that time that that is the first time we mentioned the correctness/of his opinion.
THE PRESIDENT: Dr. Marx, just one moment. defendant von Schirach if we discussed the question about the documents at 9:30 tomorrow morning?
SIR DAVID MAXWELL FYFE: My Lord, I will find out. Yes, counsel for von Schirach says that he thinks it is all right.
THE PRESIDENT: Very well, 9:30 tomorrow morning. BY DR. MARX: farm about the opinion of Streicher with regard to the Jewish question? What was that about the "Israelitisches Wochenblatt"?
A Well, what do you want to know about the "Israelitisches Wochenblatt" Streicher received it.
Q Did he receive it regularly?
A Yes, I believe I can say that quite certainly. I saw large heaps of newspapers of the "Israelitisches Wochenblatt". They came continuously.
Q Mr. Streicher said that during the first years of the war he had great difficulty to got that paper and the police did not release it easily?
A Yes, that can very well be. I do not know what year they were. saw them. Today it is difficult for me to tell of what year these papers were.
A Yes, on and off, but there were also some other newspapers; Swiss newspapers were there, the "Israelitisches Wochenblatt", and so on. There were always so many newspapers and among them I sawhere and there the "Israelitisches Wochenblatt". I mean to say that it would not be possible for me to say how many there were.
Q All right. Did Streicher speak at times about his knowledge of happenings in the East or of happenings in concentration camps in the East? it. He could not say anything about it. At least that's my conviction.
Q How come? Did you ever speak to him about it?
A No, not that I know of; I didn't know anything about it myself. reproached by Reicgsfuehrer SS Himmler because he treated the imprisoned Frenchmen too well? Do you understand me?
A Yes, I understood, but I have to think about it. I know quite well that Streicher mentioned at times about the treatment of prisoners. I know that the Frenchmen were treated very well, but whether the cause for that was a letter from Himmler, that I don't know.
Q No, no. The cause for a good treatment, you mean?
A No, the cause that Streicher spoke about it. Streicher spoke about repro.aching, about the good treatment of the Frenchmen; but the fact that he spoke about it, whether that was caused by a letter from Himmler or not, that I don't know. complain about bad treatment.
Q You were no more present when the French left? firm came to Streicher, into his garden, and told him that he had told the truth to the police in an affair concerning shares?
A I have to ask you to give me that question in more detail. I do not know all about it, but part of it. I know that Director Fink was standing in tears before Streicher, that he cried, that he accused himself, that he was a rascal and a traitor, but why I don't know. Then Streicher ran into the garden with him, and I only saw that Fink cried. I can still hear how he accused himself. brought people from the S.P.D. and the K.P.D. from the concentration camps, Social Democratic Party and Communist Party?
Q How many were there?
A I don't know. It was about every year around Christmas. I estimate that there were about 100 to 150 men every year. They came from Dachau. Mr. Streicher, in the Hotel Deutscher Hof, had dinner prepared for them in a separate room; and I believe that is where they also met their families -- that is to say, the prisoners met the members of their family. Streicher also saw to it that the prisoners who were then released found work, and he intervened personally for them.
Q Did he also get one or another of these prisoners to work?
Q What do you know about that? motorcycle factory. Streicher then at that time told the Plenipotentiary for X the Labor Front to get these people in, as much as I remember. of the Party had acquired cars and villas of Jewish property at very low prices?
A I can still remember when Mr. Streicher returned from Berlin. I don't know how much Streicher knew at that time about these purchases, but, at any rate, when Streicher returned from Berlin where Goering had made statements about these cheap, low price purchases of buildings, Streicher was at the railroad station.
I witnessed that myself. He said that at once these purchases had to be nullified. house. I don't know whether there were more of them. by the Gestapo and there was a prohibition against visiting him there? criminal agents were there, but one could assume that they were there. I know of a woman who even stated that she had been photographed in the forest when she came from the railroad station to the farm. And what was the second question?
A Oh, yes. Throughout the city I met various members of the Party, and whomever I asked told me, "Well, one cannot get out there, one cannot go out there." And if I asked, "Well, who said that?" Then no one wanted totalk about it, but, as one heard it, a prohibition was expressed by the Deputy of the Fuehrer, Hess. out that an act of violence had been committed against Jews or other political adversaries or were only intended, that he stopped them immediately?
A Yes. At least, on the basis of his statement he always said that that was wrong. somebody who had committed such violations? If you don't know it, say so. shares?
Q What do you know about it?
A I know about that case through statements by Streicher. I was not a witness to these events myself, but Mr. Streicher told me frequently later what had happened.
Shall I describe it? came and offered the shares to Streicher. Streicher said, "What kind of share are they?" The answer was, "They are shares of the Mars Works." He said, "How many?" The answer was "One hundred thousand Marks." Then Streicher said "How much are these?" He said "5,000 Marks." Streicher asked, "Why are these shares so cheap?" then finally Fink, I believe, said, "Because they are Jewish shares." never have taken anything from a Jew. He protested very definitely against the fact that such an offer had been made to him at all. Streicher, had the thought that with that money he could possibly reconstruct the third Gau building. He pointed that out to the gentlemen as they left, and they decided to buy the shares. Streicher only said that definitely no Party money should be used for that. Then both did not know what to do. Streicher said he would like to advance these 5,000 Marks.
That settled the case, but I had an experience later about it. It was about one and a half years after that negotiation that Streicher had had in Munich. At that time the wife of NSKK Obergruppenfuehrer Zuehlen came to me and asked whether I knew already that the criminal police was given orders at Nurnberg to investigate the case Streicher. I said no and told then "If you want to know something or if they want to know something, why don't they come out to the farm to Mr. Streicher himself? He will give them all the information desired."
After about two to three weeks, I met "Der Stuermer" director Fischer, successor to Fink. He told me -- no, I have to mention first that the shares, together with the 5,000 Marks, were confiscated by Streicher. Director Fischer told me that on that same day he had received a phone call from the trustee company, and that trustee institution reported to Fischer that on the account of the "Stuermer" they had transferred 5,000 Marks which Streicher at that time had advanced for thepurchase of the shares.
THE PRESIDENT: Dr. Marx, don't you think he is going into rather too much detail about this?
DR. MARX: Yes.
THE WITNESS: Yes, I will make it shorter. because the complete innocence of Streicher had been proved.
Q You witnessed the Supreme Party Court session. What did Fink say at thattime? Did he not accuse himself that he had told the trhtu? Munich occurred at the Kuenstlerhaus. That story of the man who accosted Streicher -- can you give us a description of how that incident occurred?
A Yes. Streicher left the room after dinner. I could not remember the words spoken, but I am going to try to describe it as well as possible. Streicher left the room, and as he left that man approached Streicher in a very disagreeable manner. Streicher continued on his way and was without words. He asked the people around him, myself also, whether we knew that man. Nobody knew him. to the man and to ask him what the reason was for his behavior. Lothar Streicher came out and said that the man had behaved just in the sane manner again.
Q Will you please be more brief? You should only tell us how that incident occurred and what caused you or Streicher to use violence against the man.
A You mean my behavior?
Q Yes. What happened then? man personally. There again the man made incriminating remarks, and then it came to a thrashing by Lothar Streicher. He was a strong man, and it of course took all of us to get him down.
DR. MARX: Then I am through with this witness, Mr. President.
THE PRESIDENT: Do any of the defense counsel want to ask any questions? Do any of the prosecution counsel wish to cross examine? Then the witness can retire.
(The witness retired) DR MARX: Then I should like to call the witness Wurzbacher, if he is available; is he not? I don't know which one of the witnesses is still available. Is there anyone? THE MARSHAL: Frau Streicher is available. THE PRESIDENT: Is not the witness Wurzbacher here? THE MARSHAL: I Will see, sir. He was not here awhile ago. He was not called for. THE PRESIDENT: What other witnesses have you got, Dr. Marx? DR. MARX: The wife of the defendant could be called as a witness, now. THE PRESIDENT: Very well, let her be called, then. THE MARSHAL: The witness Strobel is available, now. THE PRESIDENT: Dr. Marx wants to call Mrs Streicher. DR. MARX: Excuse me, Mr. President. If it is rather difficult to call Mrs. Streicher, then the witness--
ADELE STREICHER, a witness took the stand and testified as follows: BY THE PRESIDENT:
Q Will you give me your full name?
Q Will you repeat this oath after me: the pure truth and will withhold and add nothing.
(The witness repeated the oath) THE PRESIDENT: You may sit down. BY DR. MARX:
Q You are a born TAPPE, from Magdeburg?
Q Were you a member of the NSDAP or of the Frauenschaft?
Q When did you become Mr. Streicher's secretary and for how long were you in that job?
A On the 7th of June 1940, I became Julius Stretcher's secretary and I remained in that job until the end of the war.
Q And during that period, you were continuously on his side? Streicher? Streicher?
Q What did that correspondence mainly consist of?
Q What was Streicher's activities during that period of time, of the period of five years?
A Mainly physical work; that is, agriculture and gardening, and from time to time he wrote articles for the "Der Stuermer." he at one time absent from the farm? or was he at one time absent from the farm? entire night.
the Party to visit Streicher?
Q How do you know that?
A From conversations and then I experienced myself when Dr. Goebbels visited the farm, that Julius Streicher told him "Doctor, you dare to come here? Don't you know that there is a prohibition by the Party to visit me?"
Q When did the visit of Dr. Ley and Dr. Goebbels occur?
A Dr. Ley came on the 7th of May 1944 to the farm. The visit of Dr. Goebbels occurred on the 4th of June 1944. the object of the conversation?
A Both visits were of a definitely unofficial character. Dr. Ley wanted mainly to know how Julius Streicher was doing personally and no political questions were treated. Ley said only "Streicher, the Fuehrer is waiting for you."
Q And what did Streicher say to that? was happy as a farmer and Ley should tellthe Fuehrer that Streicher had no further wishes. At the visit of Dr. Goebbels the subject of the conversation was mainly why Julius Streicher had been released from office as Gauleiter, and Dr. Goebbels was of the opinion that Streicher should return into the circle of old Party members but he gave him the same answer, "Tell the Fuehrer I have no wishes."
Q During these conversations, were you always present?
Q Was not the Jewish question a subject of conversation?
or in the concentration camps? pressed in articles in "Der Stuermer" or intended to express and at these occasions; didn't he also speak about the manner in which he thought the solution of the Jewish problem could be found? certainty that he did not expect the Jewish question to be solved by acts of violence but by the emigration of Jews from Europe and their settlement in territories outside of Europe.
Q Did Mr. Streicher keep up contact with leading people; was he in correspondence with leading personalities of the Party or of the State? connection. this has any connection: Himmler, Heydrich, Bormann, or other leading men of the police or the SS or the Gestapo?
A No, with these men, with the exception of one letter from Mr. Himmler there was never any correspondence from the others.
Q And what was the cause for that letter? of war who were employed on our farm were treated too well. lian workers on the farm? and one Slav girl were employed. They were all treated very well and very human Each personal service for which Julius Streicher asked, each worker for which he asked personally, for each of these services they got extra present, cigarettes and money. With some of the Frenchmen, such a good relation developed during the years that they were there, they assured us that they would visit Julius Streicher after the war with their families.
Q Didn't Streicher finally receive credible knowledge about these mass execution in the East?
A I believe in 1944. It occured in 1944 when he found out about it through Swiss newspapers. Officially, we were never informed about it.
Q But it is asserted that before, already, he had had knowledge?
Q You don't know anything about it?
Q You once led the conversation to the fact that in Magdeburg, from the 9th to the 10th of November during 1938, you witnessed a demonstration against the Jews and that you were very indignant about it.
Is that true? place. Julius Streicher at that time got very excited during that conversation and said such nonsense had occurred in Nurnberg also. That was not anti-Semitism: that was just stupidity. of the publishing firm and left these things to the manager? house nor in the firm and the gentlemen of the firm were always disappointed when they spoke or reported or wanted to report about matters of accounting and Streicher told them, "Leave me alone with your business matters. There are other things besides money that are important."
Q How did he take care of the household expenses, then?
A I received 1,000 marks every month from the firm. That took care of the household, of presents, and so on. acquired on the basis of pressure against a Jewish banker?
A That is quite impossible. I consider it quite impossible that Julius Streicher acquired shares that way. I believe that he doesn't even know what a share looks like.
Q Did he tell you anything about it? married?
A (No response)
Q Did you understand the question?
A Yes. Julius Streicher wanted to take part in the struggle in Nurnberg. I wanted to be with him. He wanted to give me his name before we went. We wanted to die together. did you go from there?
A First we wanted to go to Nurnberg, and that was refused. Then we went in the direction of Munich. In Munich we were told to continue in the direction of Passau.
From Passau they sent us to Berchtesgaden; from Berchtesgaden they sent us to Kitzbuehl. together did not come about?
Q And what was that conversation?
THE PRESIDENT: I don't think youshould go into that, Dr. Marx. BY DR. MARX:
Q Well then, you do not need to answer. Only one more question. power of attorney which meant that that man could dispose of it as he wanted?
A Yes, that is true. He gave the power of attorney to the manager of the firm, whoever it was at that time, and that meant full confidence in whatever he wanted to do.
DR. MARX: Mr. President, I have no more questions.
THE PRESIDENT: Do any of the defendants' counsel want to ask any questions?
SIR DAVID MAXWELL-FYFE: No.
THE PRESIDENT: Then the witness can retire, and the court will adjourn until 9:30 tomorrow morning.
(The Tribunal adjourned until 30 April 1946 at 0930 hours.)
(Mr. Dodd, of the American Prosecution, approached the lectern.)
THE PRESIDENT: Mr. Dodd, were you going to deal with these questions?
MR. DODD: Yes, Mr. President, I am prepared to do so. Shall I proceed to take up those documents over which we have some difficulty?
THE PRESIDENT: If you will, yes.
MR. DODD: Altogether, there are some 118 documents submitted on behalf of the Defendant von Schirach. As a result of our conversations, we have agreed on all but -- I believe the number is twelve.
The first group, Nos. 30, 31, 45, 68, 73, 101, 109, 124 and 133, are all excerpts from a book entitled, "Look, the Heart of Europe." written by a man named Stanley Maclatchie. They are excerpts referring to the Hitler Youth organization, and we do object to them on the ground that they are all irrelevant and immaterial here. They describe Hitler Youth meetings at home and Hitler health programs and Hitler athletic competition and Hitler Youth Land Service and that sort of thing. There are general descriptions by Mr. Maclatchie of some activities of the Hitler Youth organization. They are all, I say, from that same book -- none of them written by the Defendant himself. They were published in 1937.
Then, document 118A is a letter. It is unsigned, except that it is typewritten. It is by Colin Ross and his wife. It appears to be a suicide note setting forth the reasons why Ross and his wife intended to commit suicide. We have been unable to determine its probative value and do not see any probative value in it, in so far as the issues affecting this Defendant are concerned. He apparently was acquainted with the Defenda von Schirach and that is the claim, I assume of Counsel for von Schirach, tha it sheds some light on von Schirach's attitude. But it is not clear to us.
The third is 121. This is a quotation from the United States Army newspaper, The Stars and Stripes, issue of the 21st of February, 1946.
It is about the training of young people in Yugoslavia at the present time. With respect to this we also say We believe it to be immaterial here and not relevant and not bearing on the issues concerning this Defendant as charged in the indictment. documents concerning which we have any controversy.
THE PRESIDENT: Eleven.
MR. DODD: I am sorry. I said twelve.
DR. SAUTER (Counsel for Defendant von Schirach): Mr. President, the first group of documents to which the Prosecution has objected are from a book by an American, Maclatchie. This American, as he writes himself in the book, is of Scottish descent, and in the year 1936 -- that was the year of the Olympic Games -- visited Germany, and he was in a position to get himself a picture of conditions in Germany and of the development of the German people during the first years of the Hitler regime, and here he describes the impressions he received. introduction -- the preface of the book --shows that the man that impelled him to write that book was von Schirach. The Defendant, as he will explain in the course of interrogation here in court, very early in his life began a pleasant and friendly attitude toward the United States, and this book by Maclatchie is one of the many means which the Defendant von Schirach used for that purpose. The author admits in his book himself, in the preface, that the material for the book was received, at least the larger part of it -from the Defendant von Schirach. And that fact, these proceedings, seems to be Important concerning the production of proof for the defense of von Schirach. It lends to the book an entirely different importance than if it had been written independently by von Schirach. Therefore we have to consider the descriptions and impressions of this book as the impressions of the Defendant von Schirach himself. That is the main reason I have submitted the book with the request that I be permitted to quote individual passages, particularly those concerning the youth, in the course of my presentation.
have less to do with and are not in immediate connection with the youth leadership of the Defendant von Schirach that I have not mentioned, but only a few short extracts which exclusively describe the activity and aim of the Defendant von Schirach and which, besides, will show you gentlemen what impression even a foreigner could gain from this activity, although he had come to Germany already with a certain prejudice and lost that prejudice only after getting his own impressions.