"Regarding the question what to do with the political concentration camps under the A-B action, a discussion with Secretary of State Dr. Buehler is to take place in the near future as well as Obergruppenfuehrer Krueger, Brigadeleader Streckenbach, and Ministerialrat Wille."
Who was Ministerialrat Wille and what task did he have in that connection?
A May I first of all, perhaps, say this? There is a gap in my memory, which makes it impossible for me to say for certain when the Governor General told Brigadefuehrer Streckenbach that he would have to observe courts martial procedures and take notice of that reprieve commission. time this discussion took place between Krueger, Streckenbach, Wille, and myself, only arrests had taken place and no executions. the Government, and he was the executive official for all reprieve matters. The Governor General wanted these matters dealt with by a legally trained, experienced man. been ruled that the persons who had been arrested up to that time were to be put before a court martial and that sentences had to be dealt with by this reprieve commission. The police were not exactly enthusiastic about it, and I remember that Krueger told me privately, after the conference, that the Governor General was a jack-in-the-box with whom one couldn't work, and that in the future he would go his own particular way.
THE PRESIDENT: Dr. Seidl, the Tribunal thinks that this has been gone into in too great detail.
DR. SEIDL: Yes, and I have come to the end of that question. BY DR. SEIDL: the 1st of May--the defendant, Dr. Frank, mentioned the following about other things, and I quote: "What difficulties we had with these Krakow professors were terrible. If we had handled the thing from here, it would have taken a different course." participate in the matter? arrived in Krakow to begin his activities, all professors of the Krakow University had been arrested by the Security Police, without his knowledge, and taken away to concentration camps in the Reich.
Amongst them were acquaintances of the Governor General, with whom he had had discussions in the Academy of German Law just before, and with whom he had had both scientific and social contact. The Governor General worked on Krueger persistently and uninterruptedly until he had been successful in achieving the release of a majority of these professors from concentration camps. opinion, for the purpose of healing the wounds of the police. The police, of course, did not like to have these professors out. the recruiting of laborers for the Reich? attempting to bring as many Polish workers to the Reich as possible. It was clear to us, however, that the employment of force in the recruiting of workers might bring about temporary advantages, but that, on the other hand, the recruitment of workers, and for a long time to come, would then not promise much success. The Governor General gave me instructions, therefore, to make considerable propaganda so as to create an atmosphere favorable for employment in the Reich, and stating that all force in the recruitment of laborers should be discontinued and opposed. successfully attempted by the Governor General by speaking for decent treatment of Polish workers in the Reich. The Reich Commissioner for the employment of labor, Gauleiter Sauckel, was negotiated with for years about that matter, and improvements were in fact achieved. In particular, the Governor General opposed the marking of Poles in the Reich. I remember a letter from Reich Commissioner Sauckel in which he informs the Governor General that he had made every effort so as to insure equal treatment of Polish workers with the other foreign workers, but that his efforts had no longer been crowned by success wherever the influence of the Reichsfuehrer SS had opposed his efforts.
Q Witness, I now come to another problem. Under USA 275, the prosecution have submitted document 1061-PS, which is a report of Brigadefuehrer Strop about the destruction of the ghetto at Warsaw.
Did you or the Governor General find yourselves informed previously about these measures to be introduced? informed about any such plans. of 1943 at the ghetto at Warsaw? uprising had occurred at the ghetto which had been long prepared, that the Jews had been given building materials for air raid precautions but that they used them to establish defense works, and that during that uprising considerable resistance was met by the German troops.
Q I now come to the Warsaw uprising of 1944. How far was the Administration in the Government General participating in that revolt? revolutionary men, we asked the Governor General to ask the Fuehrer for assistance for a speedy combatting of that revolt. Apart from that, the Administration was concerned with the welfare of the population and the clearing up in the battle zone. We did assist in that, but the Administration had no authoritative powers, nor did the Governor General.
Q On the 4th of November, 1945, you made an affidavit. The affidavit has the number 2476-PS. I shall now read to you that very brief affidavit, and I shall ask you to tell me whether the contents are correct. I quote:
"In the course of the defeating of the Warsaw revolt in August of 1944, approximately 50,000 to 60,000 inhabitants of Warsaw were taken away to German concentration camps. As a result of a demarche by the Governor General to Reichsfuehrer SS Himmler, the latter prohibited such deportations. The Governor General had attempted so that the 50,000 to 60,000 inhabitants of Warsaw who had been taken to concentration camps should once more be liberated. The Chief of the RSHA, Obergruppenfuehrer Kaltenbrunner, has dealt with this document, which I brought about personally in October of 1944, and refused, giving the reason that these inhabitants of Warsaw were being used in the secret rearmament program of the Reich, and that therefore a general release was out of the question. However, he would certainly be willing to entertain individual applications favorable. Individual applications for release from concentration camps were granted by Kaltenbrunner during the subsequent months.
"Contrary to the Polish estimate, the number of persons taken to concentration camps in the Reich was estimated to be small by Kaltenbrunner. I myself reported to my office, the statement from Kaltenbrunner regarding the number of detained persons, and after a renewed investigation I found that the above-mentioned figure of 50,000 to 60,000 was correct.
These were the people who had been taken to concentration camps in Germany."
A May I ask you to repeat the last two sentences please?
Q "I myself reported Kaltenbrunner's statement regarding the number of detained persons, and a renewed investigation proved the above mentioned figure of 50,000 to 60,000 to be correct. These were the people who had been taken to concentration camps in Germany." fore an American officer, correct?
THE PRESIDENT: Before he supplements it, is it in evidence? Has it yet been put in evidence?
DR. SEIDL: It has the number 2476-PS.
THE PRESIDENT: You said before, 2467. Which is it?
DR. SEIDL: It is 2476.
THE PRESIDENT: That doesn't prove it has been put in evidence. Has it been put in evidence? Dr. Seidl, you know quite well what "put in evidence" means. Has it been put in evidence? Does it have a USA Exhibit number?
DR. SEIDL: No, it hasn't get a USA Exhibit number.
THE PRESIDENT: Then you are offering it in evidence, are you?
DR. SEIDL: I don't want to formally submit it in evidence I merely want to communicate the contents of that affidavit to the witness to ask him a question on it.
THE PRESIDENT: But it is a document, and if you are putting it to the witness, you must put it in evidence and you must give it an exhibit number. You can't put documents to the witness and not put them in evidence.
DR. SEIDL: In that case, I submit the document as Exhibit Frank No. 1.
BY DR. SEIDL: davit are correct, and whether you are proposing to supplement the affidavit.
It is possible that I have been to see Kaltenbrunner twice in connection with that question--not only once--and after Kaltenbrunner had refused to release these people, on the second occasion, I had, on the strength of my experiences in the Camp of Pruszkow with the camp commandant, the impression that it wasn't a question of Kaltenbrunner's jurisdiction or that he could order such a release. He didn't talk to me about that. that he himself did not have the power to release those people? in Poland, and I had the impression, based on these conferences, that I might gain Kaltenbrunner's interest in a reasonable policy for the Poles and I might make him my ally against Himmler. At any rate, he condemned the methods of force which were used by Krueger when he talked to me. I gathered from these statements that Kaltenbrunner did not want to see methods of force employed against the Poles and that he would have helped me if he could.
Q The Soviet Prosecution has submitted document USSR 128. It is a teleprinted letter from the intelligence department of the higher SS and police leader East addressed to the Governor General and refers to the governor of Warsaw, Dr. Fischer. Under No. 2 you will find the following statement. Warsaw; that is to say, that Warsaw must be leveled to the ground during the war. Since this would be against the military interests all raw materials, all textiles, and all furniture is to be cleared out of Warsaw first. The main task will fall to the civil administration. I herewith inform you that this new Fuehrer regarding the leveling of Warsaw will have the greates significance for the policy towards the Poles in the future. ceive that letter? How did he understand it: And how far did his basic views alter on the strength of that letter? had received from the Reichsfuehrer SS. The administration in the Government General did not receive the destruction of Warsaw favorably. To the contrary, I remember that together with the Governor General it was discussed which ways might be used to avoid the destruction of the town of Warsaw.
Just what channels, were used in practice is something I cannot recollect. Maybe further stops weren't taken because of the impossibility of achieving anything.
THE PRESIDENT: We might adjourn now for ten minutes.
(A recess was taken.)
DR. SEIDL: Before I continue the interrogation of Dr. Buehler, I should like to point out that I forego the interrogation of the witness Kraffczyk. I forego the interrogation of the witness Helene Kraffczyk, so that this witness is going to be the last one.
THE PRESIDENT: Thank you. BY DR. SEIDL:
Q Witness, the Defendant Dr. Frank has been accused by the prosecution that he had not done everything within his power in order to improve the nutritional conditions within the Government General. What can you tell us about that? of the population in the Government General and why they could not be as satisfactory as in Germany is to be seen in the lack of cooperation by the Polish population in the measures taken by the Germans in order to bring about a just distribution of food quotas. This lack of cooperation came from patriotic reasons, and it was caused by the resistance against the German domination and by continuous propaganda from the outside. I do not believe that there was a single country in Europe where so much pillaging and so much black market was going on, where so much was destroyed, so much sabotaged, in orderto sabotage the nutritional conditions, as happened in the Government General.
To give one example: All the dairy machinery which had been brought into the Government General with great pains and the large system of dairies were again and again destroyed, so *** * *** that satisfactory distribution of milk could not take pl***. I estimate that whatever there was on the free market and the black market and was turned over in the way of fats was much more than could have been distributed by official functionaries.
Government General was taken out of an economic unit--had been cut out of an economic unit--without which a proper economic balance could have been established.
the cities such as Warsaw, Cracow, Lemberg, and the industrial areas in the center of Poland, had previously been dependent to a large extent on the surrounding country, on the peasants, for their food. There was now in this area a lack of grain, a lack of storage facilities of all kinds. the government of the Government General had to try to reconstruct all these missing, establishments, and therefore the supply of the population was increasingly difficult. It wasn't intdended to supply them fully right away but to improve it gradually. I have always, seen to it that in whatever directives were issued against the Black Market margins were provided for the acquisition of foodstuffs, and that the population of the cities should have the possibility of finding a way to the producer. but an order came from the Plenipotentiary for the Four-Year Plan which ordered not to improve the rations, not to increase the rations, but to send certain quotas of foodstuffs to the Reich. All these foodstuffs in fact were not taken from that area, but they were used up by the armed forces right there. officials of the Four-Year Plan for improvement of the food supply conditions of the Polish population. That struggle was not without success. In many cases it was possible to increase the rations, especially of the workers in armament industries and other privileged groups of the working population, to a considerable extent. General it was not easy to get the daily needs. On the other hand, in the Government General there were no famines and no epidemics. A Polish and Ukrainian Committee which had delegations in all districts of the Government General worked out a program for the supply of foodstuffs for those parts of the population in greatest need. I have intervened that this committee shoul be supplied with the greatest possible amounts of foodstuffs, in order to have the greatest possible success in its welfare actions, and it is known to me that that committee took special care of the children of large cities.
Q. Witness, what were the measures that the Governor General took to safeguard art treasures in the areas under his administration?
A. Already with the decree of the 16th of December 1939 the Reichs Leader SS, in his capacity as Reichscommissioner for the Security of Germandom, without knowledge of the Governor General, confiscated all art treasures of the Government General and ordered that they be transported into the Reich. The Governor General was successful in preventing that transport or most of it. for the Four-Year Plan, State Secretary Muehlmann, who claimed that he had the authority from the Plenipotentiary for the Four-Year Plan. I asked to see that authority. It was signed, not by Goering himself but by a man of his surroundings, Kritzbach. He was charged with the task of securing the art treasures of the Government General; and in order to tie this man with the Government General, the Governor General charged him with the safeguarding of this art treasures of the Government General. conferences which took place with the Governor General that the Governor General always placed the emphasis on the fact that these art treasures should stay within the area of the Government General.
Q. The Prosecution, under No. U.S.A. 378, that is Document 1709-PS, submitted a report about the entire activity of the Special Plenipotentiary for the safeguarding of art treasures in the Government General. On page 6 of that report we read, and I quote:
"The reason for investigation task of the State Secretary of the Government General of the 30th July 1942: to examine and investigate the entire activity of the Special Plenipotentiary for the safeguarding and securing of art treasures in the Government General." and did the report lead to serious objections?
A. The reason for that investigation caused a collision of duties for me between the job given to me by the Reich and by the tasks entrusted to me by the Governor General. I had also heard that several museums did not take care properly of several of their art objects. The result of the investigation was that the State Secretary, Muehlmann, could not be blamed in any way.
Q. The Prosecution has submitted another document, 3042-PS, U.S.A. Exhibit 375. It is affidavit by Doctor Muehlmann, and I quote:
"I was the Special Plenipotentiary of the Governor General of Poland, Hans Frank, for the safeguarding of art treasures in the Government General October 1939 until September 1943. The task was given to me by Goering in his function as chairman of the Reichs Defense Counsel. I confirm that it was the official policy of the Governor General, Hans Frank, to safeguard and secure all important art treasures, official installations, private collections, and as much as belonged to the Church of Poland. I also confirm that the art objects mentioned were actually confiscated, and I am aware that in case of a German victory they would not have remained in Poland, but would have been used for the completion of German art collections."
I ask you now: Is it correct that the Governor General from the very beginning considered all art treasures which had been secured as property of the Government General?
As far as they had been in a property, they were secured; but never did the Governor General think of transferring them to the Reich. If he would have wanted that, he could have used the situation of the war to send these art treasures to Germany. But where that witness get his knowledge from, I do not know. It is a letter of the Commander of the Security Police, the SD, for the District of Krakow, to the District Tomaszow, of the 19th of July, 1944. There we read, among other things, and I quote:
"The Higher SS and Police Leader Ost issued the following order:"
I skip a few sentences and quote:
"The Reichsfuehrer SS has, with the approval of the Governor General, ordered that in all cases where attempts at assassination at Germans were made or where vital installations were destroyed, not only the culprits should be shot but, beyond that, all men of the family should also be executed, and women over sixteen should be sent to concentration camps." this problem with the Reichsfuehrer SS and whether he had given his approval?
A I know nothing about an order of that kind. During the second half of *** once an order about the responsibility of families came through, but I could not say now whether that was concerned with the Reich or with the Government General, a police order I would say. However, if that formula -
Q Was it with the approval of the Government General? questioned the Governor General on that point. of the Governor General? against all executions without trials and without reasons. objections to the Fuehrer about the measures of the Police and the SD?
A Yes; I myself have seen at least half a dozen of memoranda, either directed to the Fuehrer or via the Chief of the Reich Chancellory. I have written these letters myself, which contained objections against executions; against perpetrations which had to do with the recruiting of workers; about the displacing of populations from other areas without the approval of the Governor General; and about the conditions of nutrition, about happenings generally which were contrary to the principles of an orderly administration. USA 610. That is thememorandum to theFuehrer of the 19/6/43. Is this memorandum essentially different from any other memoranda which you have seen; and what was the reaction of the Fuehrer to such objections?
A This memorandum is somewhat different. The former memoranda were straight objections against these happenings, against theperpetrations by the Police. After these memoranda remained unsuccessful, upon the order of the Governor General, I made theobjections which are contained in this memorandum in the form of a political suggestion. The perpetrations mentioned there were not caused by the Governor General, but they were objections against the meddling of other officers.
Q In the diary we find on the 26th of October'43, a report about four years of German reconstruction in the Government General which you, yourself, have made. On the basis of what material did you compile that report? thirteen main departments of the Government had given me. of the Government General to the Polish and Ukrainian people, as you have come to know it during your five years? activities as Chief of the Administration? improve the advantage taken from this area by increasing the substance. In order to achieve that, a decent treatment of the population was necessary, no restrictions on freedom and property. Those were the principles of policy according to which, upon the orders of the Governor General, I have always acted as chief of the administration.
work of conditions to grant to the population a certain minimum of cultural freedom and development? of this desire found a great deal of resistance on the part of the Security Police, the Propaganda Ministry of the Reich, or also mainly from conditions; but the Governor General intended to see to it that the Polish and Ukrainian populations should not be excluded from cultural activities. the higher schools and that, therefore, in disregard of directives of the Reich, he established the so-called trade courses and higher schools? in Warsaw and Lemberg on the principles of college teaching. As a matter of principle, the Governor General also intended to open gymnasiums, middle schools, seminaries for priests, but it always failed due to the objections of the Security Police. Since no compromise could be made, in October '44, upon the orders of the Governor General, on my own I directed the opening of high schools and seminaries for priests with a certain amount of money for the Poles. Two days after the publication of that directive, I was told, and it was transmitted to me as the opinion of the Fuehrer, that I had gone beyond my authority.
Q Dr. Frank has spoken about the principle of the unity of administration and about the fact that the Governor General was thedeputy of the Fuehrer and the deputy of the authority of theReich. Was this according to facts, and what other offices of the Reich and the Party meddled into the administration of the Governor General? and in many important fields was limited. So, for instance, before the establishment of the Governor General, the Reichsfuehrer SS had received powers for all occupied territories to be concerned about the strengthening of Germandom. The Plenipotentiary for the Four-Year Plan also had authority in the Government General, but many other offices, as the armament industry, railroad, building industries, and other fields tried, and tried successfully, to acquire influence in the parts of the administration of the Government General.
After the Governor General lost his offices as Reichsleiter in 1942, there was a great rush in that direction. I would like to say that there was a sort of enthusiasm to tear parts off the crown of the king of Poland. and who paid them and who took care of them?
arrested by Krueger and that it wasn't even possible for the Government General to achieve their release. I remind you of the case of Scipessi.
A Yes. Well, that I can confirm from my own experience. Even some people who were around me were arrested without my being notified. In a case like that, I would send an ultimatum to the commander of the Security Police to release the functionary and when he was not released and I demanded the recall of that official of the Security Police, the result was that Himmler expressed his special confidence in his functionaries of his police. to work under normal conditions?
A I should like to say, never, at no time at all. During the first year we were too busy to reconstruct destroyed villages, destroyed cities, destroyed means of transportation; bridges had been blown up in large numbers and after these destroyed objects, as far as it was possible during the war, were repaired, the Government General was already an area of deployment for the war against the East, against the Russians, and then an area through which troops marched to the front and rear area. It was the great workshop, repair shop for the front. draft of a law about the treatment of foreign elements. What was the attitude of Dr. Frank toward the draft?
THE PRESIDENT: The Tribunal thinks that the matters which the witness is going into are really matters of common knowledge. Everyone knows about that. I think you might take the witness over this ground a little bit faster than you are.
DR. SEIDL: Yes, sir. He gave the answer already. BY DR. SEIDL:
THE PRESIDENT: But I am speaking for the future, Dr. Seidl.
DR. SEIDL: Yes, sir.
BY DR. SEIDL: of a law for the treatment of foreign elements. What was the attitude of the Governor General? a conversation with Heydrich in February 1942, Heydrich told me, as a special mission, to try to have the Governor General retract his protest against that law. The Governor General refused.
Q The prosecution haspresented a chart which shows Dr. Frank as having authority over the Reich Minister of Justice. Did such a relation or such a channel exist?
A That must be an error; such a thing never existed. the Governor General and the Reichsfuehrer SS Himmler? individuals, were so different.
THE PRESIDENT: Dr. Seidl, I thought we had been hearing what the relationswere all morning, between the Governor General and the Reichsfuehrer.
DR. SEIDL: Yes, I will not put that question. BY DR. SEIDL:
Q Witness, the Soviet prosecution, under No. USSR 93, submitted an annex to the report of the Polish Government and that annex describes the cultural life in Poland. I have shown it to you once before and would like you to tell me whether in fact the Governor General or his Government ever issued such directives? any of these directives signed by the Governor General. The document which has been shown to me, seems to me to be a forgery, a misinformation, and it can be recognized as such from its contents. policies of the Governor General and which are in contradiction to what you said before as a witness. How can you explain these contradictions?
in contradiction to what I said, but they are actually in fact in contradiction to what I said here and am going to say as a witness. Since I have heard these statements frequently myself, I tried to figure out how he came to them and I can only say that Frank probably, more than necessary, took part in the conversations, the discussions of the Government officers. There was hardly ever any conversation or meeting in which he did not take part and that was the reason that he had to speak very often--many times during one day, and I would like to say that in 99% of all cases he spoke without preparation; he improvised, and just upon his temperament, and frequently I witnessed that he made such grotesque statements and retracted them again in one of the following sentences or at the next opportunity and tried to straighten him out, and I also witnessed how he retracted authority which he had given to someone. I am sure that if I could go through it, I could give you a dozen statements to the contrary upon each one of these.
A May I still say the following? If the Governor General was to go with the members of his administration, he never made any such statements--at least, I cannot remember it. These statements were always made when the Higher SS and Police Fuehrer was sitting next to him, so that I had the impression that in such moments he was not free.