On the contrary, the true development of events had started during the time which preceded the decree, and had been adapted to the contents of the decree. June 3, 1942, all spheres of influence and tasks of police were listed which were to be transferred to that Secretary of State. This was contained in Appendix A, "Spheres for the Order Police", and Appendix B, "Tasks for the Security Police." Were these police matters at that time exclusively and completely transferred to the Secretary of State?
A The Administration didn't like giving up these affairs, that is to say, of course, where the police hadn't already got hold of them before, and in such cases they were only given up hesitatingly. of the so-called administrative police, aren't you?
A Yes. That is to say, police communication, hygiene police, food police, and such matters as that. that the entire police system, security police, police, SD, and order police, in other words, was coordinated under the central department either by Himmler himself or through the RSHA and higher police leaders. picture, but I think it must have happened, too, that the security police received direct orders from Berlin, without their going through Krueger. That is possible.
Q And now another question: Is it correct that the resettlement was carried out in the Government General through Himmler in his capacity of Reich Commissioner for the Stren gthening of German Nationalism? and even if it was carried out decently, did always cause disquiet among the population. We had no use for that in the Govern ment General, particularly since these resettlements always called a falling off of agricultural production.
For that reason, the Governor General and the Government did not undertake resettlement during wartime. As far as such resettlement was carried out, it was exclusively ordered by the Reich Commissioner for the Strengthening of German Nationalism. resettlement policy, had repeated serious arguments with the Reichsfuehrer SS and Krueger and Globotchnik?
A That is correct, yes. The intention of preventing such resettlement did always lead to arguments and friction between the Higher SS and Police Leader and the Governor General.
Q The defendant Dr. Frank has been accused of carrying out confiscations of private property and industry. What was the basic attitude of the Governor General regarding such problems? tiary for the Four-Year Plan. They were applicable to the Occupied Eastern Territories, and to the Government General as far as confiscation of private property or any other property. the creation of the Central Trustee Deputies was mentioned, which was to come under the Central Administration Department in Berlin. The Governor General should be administered in Berlin, and therefore he opposed the fact that the Trustee Deputies were to deal with matters relating to property in the Government General. Without being stopped by the Plenipotentiary for the Four-Year Plan, he created rules referring to confiscations in the Government General, and he created a special Trusted Department for the Government General. That Trustee Department was headed by an experienced higher civil servant from the Ministry of Economy. ment General and which had been the property of the Polish State before? program, was taken over by the military sector, that is to say, the Inspector for Armament, which was first of all subordinated to the OKW and later on, Minister Speer. to the Polish State, they were coordinated in a limited company by the Governor General, and they were separately administered as property of the Government General. The chief shareholder in this corporation was the State in the Government General, and the state budget. Reich budget?
Q The Prosecution, under No. USA-281, have submitted extracts from Frank's diary in evidence. They refer to a conference regarding Jewish problems.
In that connection, amongst others, Frank stated:
"My basic expectation regarding the Jews willbe that they must disappear. Negotiations for that purpose have been started by me and they must be deported to the East. The question will be discussed in a large meeting in Berlin in January, to which I shall send Secretary of State, Dr. Buehler. The conference is to take place in the RSHA in the offices of Heydrich. At any rate, a large scale Jewish trek will begin."
I now ask you: Did the Governor General send you to Berlin for that conference, and if so, what was the subject of the conference?
A Yes, I was sent to the conference. It subject -- Jewish problem. May I first of all say that Jewish questions in the Government-General, right from the beginning, were considered a part of the sphere of influence of the Higher SS and police leaders and handled in that manner. As far as the administration of the state in dealing with Jewish matters, this was done under the sufferance and supervision of the police.
In the course of the years of 1940 and '41 an incredible mass of people, mostly Jews, and in spite of the objections and protests of the Governor General and his administration, were led into the Government General. This completely unsuspected and unprepared and undesirable pushing into our territory of Jews from other territories put the administration of the Government General into an extremely difficult situation. welfare, the combatting of epidemics for instance, nearly went or certainly went beyond the capacity of our territory. The particularly serious point was the spreading of typhoid not only in the ghett s but also amongst the Polish population and the Germans in the Government General. It appeared as if that epidemic would become apparent even in the Reich and on the eastern front, originating from the Government General.
At that moment we received Heydrich's invitation to the Governor General. The conference was originally supposed to take place in November 1941 but it was frequently cancelled and I think it did take place in February 1942. Heydrich for an interview and he received me in that connection. On that occasion, amongst other things, I particularly referred to the catastrophic conditions as a result of the independent action regarding the bringing in of Jews into the Government General. He replied to me that for that reason particularly he had invited the Government General to that Conference. The Reichsfuehrer SS, so he said, had received the task from the Fuehrer to concentrate all Jews in Europe and to settle them in the Northeast of Europe, Russia. I asked him whether this meant that further of arrival of Jews in the Government General would cease and I said that these hundreds of thou sands of Jews who had arrived in the Government General without permission of the Governor General, would be taken away once more.
Heydrich promised me both. Heydrich said furthermore, that the Fuehrer had given an order that the town in the protectorate of Theresienstadt should become a reservation in which old and sick Jews and weak Jews who could not stand up to the strains of resettlement were to be accomodated in the future. I gathered fro that the certain impression that this resettlement of Jews, if not for the sake of the Jews, then for the sake of the reputation of the German People was to be carried out under normal conditions. The removal of the Jews from the Government General was subsequently carried out exclusively by police authorities. officers have exclusive rights to deal with this matter. ties as Secretary of State in the Government General? first indications which I had. They referred to the concentration camp at Maidanek. I did not know that this camp, which was just outside Lublin, was a concentration camp. It had been installed as an economic firm of the Reich fuehrer SS I think in 1941. Governor Zoerner came to visit me at that time and he told me that he had opposed the creation of that camp when when he talked to Globotchnik, since it would mean a danger to the electric current supplies of the town and since there were certain objections on the part of the police as well. I informed the Governor General of this and he in turn sent for Globotchnik. Globotchnik stated that certain workshops were going to be erected or had been erected on that site by him and he mentioned workshops making furs but he also mentioned a building yard which was situated there. were altered. At any rate Globotschnik stated that by order from Himmler he had installed these workshops. until the building police had clarified their side of the matter and until plans had been submitted to the officers of the state, in other words until all rules had been complied with which apply to buildings which are to be erected.
Globotschnik never submitted these plans and regarding the things which took place in the camp no concrete information ever came through and it has surprised the Governor General just as much as it surprised me when the press published this news regarding Maidanek.
Q Witness, the Prosecution have submitted a document 437-PS, U.S.A. 610, which is a memorandum from the Governor General, addressed to the Fueh rer, dated 19 June, 1943. I think you yourself drafted that memorandum. On page 35 a report of the commander of the Security Police is mentioned, which is quoted verbatim. This report of the Security Police mentions the name Maidanek. bably identical with that camp near Lublin?
A No. I assumed that like Auschwitz it was situated outside of the government general because the govenor general had repeatedly told the police and the higher SS and police leader that he did not wish to have concentration camps in the government general. general come?
A I don't know because I didn't know of the existence of the camps. In August, on the occasion of a visit, I heard of the reception camp at Pruszkow; that is where we heard about the administration of camps. At that time I brought some instruction from Himmler to the camp commandant, an instruction which stated that the transport of the inhabitants of Warsaw who were to be removed from the town and taken to concentration camps was to cease forthwith.
Q Was that after the uprising in Warsaw?
A It was during it; it must have been on or about the 18th or 19th of August 1944. The camp commandant. whose name I have forgotten, told me at the time that he did not know an order of that type and that he had been merely told that he could merely take orders from the chief of concentration camps. Ukranian, or a Jew to a concentration camp? at Warsaw who had been taken away by the security police against their will while he was absent?
A This Jewish workers' colony is known to me because I lived in that castle. I also know that the governor general always took care that his colony of workers be retained. And the chief of the Chancellory of the Government General, Ministerialrat Keit, once told me that this group of Jewish workers had been taken away by force at the time when the governor general was absent.
Q I now come to the so-called A-B action. What were the circumstances which caused this action to be introduced? left the government building where I was working, having been ordered to visit the governor general in the castle. I think I am right when I remember that Minister Seyss-Inquart had also been ordered to come along with me. On arrival we met the governor general together with several gentlemen from the police.
The governor general stated that according to the opinion of the police a extraordinary appeasing action appeared necessary. The security situation, as far as I remember, at that time was this: serted wooded country, and they were causing disquiet among the population, and I think they were training certain militant young Poles. At that time, that is May 1940, the Polish people had recovered from the shock which they suffered under the sudden defeat in 1939, and with little caution and without experience there began a resistance movement among all parts of the population. This picture is clearly in my recollection due to descriptions given by the police on that and some other occasions.
Q May I interrupt you and may I quote from Frank's diary, an entry of May 16, 1940. I quote "The genral war situation forces us to regard the security position in the government general with great care.
From a number of symptoms and actions one can drawt the conclusion that a well-organized wave of resistance among the Poles in the country is beginning, and that we atand immediately before the outbreak of certain forceful events. Thousands of Poles are supposed to have gotten together secretly, have been armed, and are being caused to carry out acts of force of all sorts. "Then the governor general qupted some examples of some recent days, as for instance, an uprising in certain villages on the major Kubala in the district of Radom, not unlike a war. The murdering of German families; the murdering of the mayor of the town of Krasienka; and illegel pamphlets are being distributed and even posted everywhere, and there can therefore be no doubt that the security position is extremely serious."
Did the governor general express himself in that manner at the time? situation for some time, but the details of what he had said I can not now recollect.
Q What happened? succeeded in taking great pains to issue courts martial regulations, and a procedure to the police which he forced upon them and which had to be observed in the case of arrests or whenever they dealt with suspicious persons.
Furthermore, the police had to allow it that the governor general could review the sentences of courts martials by means of a reprieve commission, and that the execution of sentences could only take place after the sentences had been confirmed by the governor general. "The statements of the governor general during the conference in the middle of May 1940 left me worrying that the police on these occasions might have the possibility--or shall we say--yes, possibility, of overlooking these instructions regarding courts martials and reprieve commissions, and they might dodge them. For that reason after the governor general had finished his statement I asked him for permission to speak. First of all the governor General cut me short and stated that he wanted to dictate something quickly to the stenographer, something which should go straight into the typewriter and then later on brought in in its final version. Subsequently the governor general dictated some authority or some such document, and I remember with one-hundred percent certa inty that after he had finished dictating the court reporter and I think Streckenbach left the room. I am saying this first because this is the explanation for the fact that everthing that happened afterward is not contained in the record, in the minutes, since the person preparing the record was no longer present in the room. "At any rate, I expressed my worries, saying that the requirements mentioned in the courts-martial procedure should be observed under all circumstances. I am not claiming any particular merit in this connection, because if I hadn't done it then this objection would have been raised, I am convinced, by Minister Seyss-Inquart, or the governor general personally would have realized the danger which his intentions might have brought about for this sector. At any rate, on my objection and without any debate the governor general stated at once that of course arrests and shootings could only take place in accordance with the courts-martial procedure, and that sentences of the courtsmartial would have to be investigated by this reprieve commission.
During subsequent times these instructions were obeyed. I assume that it is certain that the reprieve commission did refuse all sentences pronounced by these courts martials and dealt with them.
Q Another entry in Frank's diary, the 12th of July 1940, must bring one to the conclusion that the leaders of the resistance movement were arrested. I quote verbally and literally a statement of the governor general.
"Regarding the question what to do with the political concentration camps under the A-B action, a discussion with Secretary of State Dr. Buehler is to take place in the near future as well as Obergruppenfuehrer Krueger, Brigadeleader Streckenbach, and Ministerialrat Wille."
Who was Ministerialrat Wille and what task did he have in that connection?
A May I first of all, perhaps, say this? There is a gap in my memory, which makes it impossible for me to say for certain when the Governor General told Brigadefuehrer Streckenbach that he would have to observe courts martial procedures and take notice of that reprieve commission. time this discussion took place between Krueger, Streckenbach, Wille, and myself, only arrests had taken place and no executions. the Government, and he was the executive official for all reprieve matters. The Governor General wanted these matters dealt with by a legally trained, experienced man. been ruled that the persons who had been arrested up to that time were to be put before a court martial and that sentences had to be dealt with by this reprieve commission. The police were not exactly enthusiastic about it, and I remember that Krueger told me privately, after the conference, that the Governor General was a jack-in-the-box with whom one couldn't work, and that in the future he would go his own particular way.
THE PRESIDENT: Dr. Seidl, the Tribunal thinks that this has been gone into in too great detail.
DR. SEIDL: Yes, and I have come to the end of that question. BY DR. SEIDL: the 1st of May--the defendant, Dr. Frank, mentioned the following about other things, and I quote: "What difficulties we had with these Krakow professors were terrible. If we had handled the thing from here, it would have taken a different course." participate in the matter? arrived in Krakow to begin his activities, all professors of the Krakow University had been arrested by the Security Police, without his knowledge, and taken away to concentration camps in the Reich.
Amongst them were acquaintances of the Governor General, with whom he had had discussions in the Academy of German Law just before, and with whom he had had both scientific and social contact. The Governor General worked on Krueger persistently and uninterruptedly until he had been successful in achieving the release of a majority of these professors from concentration camps. opinion, for the purpose of healing the wounds of the police. The police, of course, did not like to have these professors out. the recruiting of laborers for the Reich? attempting to bring as many Polish workers to the Reich as possible. It was clear to us, however, that the employment of force in the recruiting of workers might bring about temporary advantages, but that, on the other hand, the recruitment of workers, and for a long time to come, would then not promise much success. The Governor General gave me instructions, therefore, to make considerable propaganda so as to create an atmosphere favorable for employment in the Reich, and stating that all force in the recruitment of laborers should be discontinued and opposed. successfully attempted by the Governor General by speaking for decent treatment of Polish workers in the Reich. The Reich Commissioner for the employment of labor, Gauleiter Sauckel, was negotiated with for years about that matter, and improvements were in fact achieved. In particular, the Governor General opposed the marking of Poles in the Reich. I remember a letter from Reich Commissioner Sauckel in which he informs the Governor General that he had made every effort so as to insure equal treatment of Polish workers with the other foreign workers, but that his efforts had no longer been crowned by success wherever the influence of the Reichsfuehrer SS had opposed his efforts.
Q Witness, I now come to another problem. Under USA 275, the prosecution have submitted document 1061-PS, which is a report of Brigadefuehrer Strop about the destruction of the ghetto at Warsaw.
Did you or the Governor General find yourselves informed previously about these measures to be introduced? informed about any such plans. of 1943 at the ghetto at Warsaw? uprising had occurred at the ghetto which had been long prepared, that the Jews had been given building materials for air raid precautions but that they used them to establish defense works, and that during that uprising considerable resistance was met by the German troops.
Q I now come to the Warsaw uprising of 1944. How far was the Administration in the Government General participating in that revolt? revolutionary men, we asked the Governor General to ask the Fuehrer for assistance for a speedy combatting of that revolt. Apart from that, the Administration was concerned with the welfare of the population and the clearing up in the battle zone. We did assist in that, but the Administration had no authoritative powers, nor did the Governor General.
Q On the 4th of November, 1945, you made an affidavit. The affidavit has the number 2476-PS. I shall now read to you that very brief affidavit, and I shall ask you to tell me whether the contents are correct. I quote:
"In the course of the defeating of the Warsaw revolt in August of 1944, approximately 50,000 to 60,000 inhabitants of Warsaw were taken away to German concentration camps. As a result of a demarche by the Governor General to Reichsfuehrer SS Himmler, the latter prohibited such deportations. The Governor General had attempted so that the 50,000 to 60,000 inhabitants of Warsaw who had been taken to concentration camps should once more be liberated. The Chief of the RSHA, Obergruppenfuehrer Kaltenbrunner, has dealt with this document, which I brought about personally in October of 1944, and refused, giving the reason that these inhabitants of Warsaw were being used in the secret rearmament program of the Reich, and that therefore a general release was out of the question. However, he would certainly be willing to entertain individual applications favorable. Individual applications for release from concentration camps were granted by Kaltenbrunner during the subsequent months.
"Contrary to the Polish estimate, the number of persons taken to concentration camps in the Reich was estimated to be small by Kaltenbrunner. I myself reported to my office, the statement from Kaltenbrunner regarding the number of detained persons, and after a renewed investigation I found that the above-mentioned figure of 50,000 to 60,000 was correct.
These were the people who had been taken to concentration camps in Germany."
A May I ask you to repeat the last two sentences please?
Q "I myself reported Kaltenbrunner's statement regarding the number of detained persons, and a renewed investigation proved the above mentioned figure of 50,000 to 60,000 to be correct. These were the people who had been taken to concentration camps in Germany." fore an American officer, correct?
THE PRESIDENT: Before he supplements it, is it in evidence? Has it yet been put in evidence?
DR. SEIDL: It has the number 2476-PS.
THE PRESIDENT: You said before, 2467. Which is it?
DR. SEIDL: It is 2476.
THE PRESIDENT: That doesn't prove it has been put in evidence. Has it been put in evidence? Dr. Seidl, you know quite well what "put in evidence" means. Has it been put in evidence? Does it have a USA Exhibit number?
DR. SEIDL: No, it hasn't get a USA Exhibit number.
THE PRESIDENT: Then you are offering it in evidence, are you?
DR. SEIDL: I don't want to formally submit it in evidence I merely want to communicate the contents of that affidavit to the witness to ask him a question on it.
THE PRESIDENT: But it is a document, and if you are putting it to the witness, you must put it in evidence and you must give it an exhibit number. You can't put documents to the witness and not put them in evidence.
DR. SEIDL: In that case, I submit the document as Exhibit Frank No. 1.
BY DR. SEIDL: davit are correct, and whether you are proposing to supplement the affidavit.
It is possible that I have been to see Kaltenbrunner twice in connection with that question--not only once--and after Kaltenbrunner had refused to release these people, on the second occasion, I had, on the strength of my experiences in the Camp of Pruszkow with the camp commandant, the impression that it wasn't a question of Kaltenbrunner's jurisdiction or that he could order such a release. He didn't talk to me about that. that he himself did not have the power to release those people? in Poland, and I had the impression, based on these conferences, that I might gain Kaltenbrunner's interest in a reasonable policy for the Poles and I might make him my ally against Himmler. At any rate, he condemned the methods of force which were used by Krueger when he talked to me. I gathered from these statements that Kaltenbrunner did not want to see methods of force employed against the Poles and that he would have helped me if he could.
Q The Soviet Prosecution has submitted document USSR 128. It is a teleprinted letter from the intelligence department of the higher SS and police leader East addressed to the Governor General and refers to the governor of Warsaw, Dr. Fischer. Under No. 2 you will find the following statement. Warsaw; that is to say, that Warsaw must be leveled to the ground during the war. Since this would be against the military interests all raw materials, all textiles, and all furniture is to be cleared out of Warsaw first. The main task will fall to the civil administration. I herewith inform you that this new Fuehrer regarding the leveling of Warsaw will have the greates significance for the policy towards the Poles in the future. ceive that letter? How did he understand it: And how far did his basic views alter on the strength of that letter? had received from the Reichsfuehrer SS. The administration in the Government General did not receive the destruction of Warsaw favorably. To the contrary, I remember that together with the Governor General it was discussed which ways might be used to avoid the destruction of the town of Warsaw.
Just what channels, were used in practice is something I cannot recollect. Maybe further stops weren't taken because of the impossibility of achieving anything.
THE PRESIDENT: We might adjourn now for ten minutes.
(A recess was taken.)
DR. SEIDL: Before I continue the interrogation of Dr. Buehler, I should like to point out that I forego the interrogation of the witness Kraffczyk. I forego the interrogation of the witness Helene Kraffczyk, so that this witness is going to be the last one.
THE PRESIDENT: Thank you. BY DR. SEIDL:
Q Witness, the Defendant Dr. Frank has been accused by the prosecution that he had not done everything within his power in order to improve the nutritional conditions within the Government General. What can you tell us about that? of the population in the Government General and why they could not be as satisfactory as in Germany is to be seen in the lack of cooperation by the Polish population in the measures taken by the Germans in order to bring about a just distribution of food quotas. This lack of cooperation came from patriotic reasons, and it was caused by the resistance against the German domination and by continuous propaganda from the outside. I do not believe that there was a single country in Europe where so much pillaging and so much black market was going on, where so much was destroyed, so much sabotaged, in orderto sabotage the nutritional conditions, as happened in the Government General.
To give one example: All the dairy machinery which had been brought into the Government General with great pains and the large system of dairies were again and again destroyed, so *** * *** that satisfactory distribution of milk could not take pl***. I estimate that whatever there was on the free market and the black market and was turned over in the way of fats was much more than could have been distributed by official functionaries.
