ministration of the concentration amps?
A No. It may be that at the beginning concentration camps here and there wer administered by the Secret State Police directly for a short period, but that was probably only the case in individual instances. But it was the principle even at that time, and later on, generally, that concentration camps were administered by the economic and administrative central department. liquidation of concentration camps? on the strenth of which protective custody could be decreed after 1933? President for the protection of the nation, and the state, dated February 1933, in which a number of basic rights of the Weimar Constitution were rescinded. on which dealt with protective custody, I mean at the end of '36 or the beginning of '37?
A Yes. At that time protective custody procedure was ruled on by this decree from the Ministry of the Interior, but the legal basis as such remeined in force. At that time, protective custody was confined to the Secret State Police. Before that, a number of other service departments, whether rightly or wrongly, had the right to decree protective custody. To prevent this, protective custody matters were transferred to the Secret State Police at that time. and in what capacity were you there? the commander of the Security Police in France, or from individual commanders, stating that in the caae of interrogation of prisoners of war, ill treatment and cruelties which actually did occur during interrogations?
ment did occur which either did take place although they were forbidden, or which were carried out by members of other service authorities in France who did not belong to the Security Police. treatment either officially or by hearsay? are concerned, I have never heard of such ill treatment, but I heard of ill treatment carried out by groups consisting of Frenchmen who were acting by order of some German authority
Q Were there so-called Gestapo prisons in France?
A. No. The Security Police in France did not have prisons of their own. Their prisoners were transferred to the detention camps of the Genman armed forces or detention institutions of the German armed forces.
Q. One last question: The Prosecution has listed a large number of crimes against humanity and the law of warfare which have been committed with participation on the part of the Security Police. Can one say that these crimes were perfectly obvious and must have been known to all members of the State Police, or was it the case that these crimes were only known to a small circle of persons who had the task of carrying out the measures concerned? What was the situation in that connection?
A. I didn't quite understand the question from the beginning. Were you referring to France or to the Security Police generally in the Reich?
Q. I was referring to the Security Police generally.
A. Any ill treatment or torturing was not permitted, and according to my knowled e, it was even less known generally or to a larger circle of persons I, for instance, knew nothing of it.
DR. MERKEL: I have no further questions.
THE PRESIDENT: We will adjourn now for ten minutes.
(A recess was taken)
THE PRESIDENT: Does the Prosecution wish to cross examine? Is there nothing you wish to ask arising out of Dr. Merkel's cross examination, Dr. Deidl?
DR. SEIDL: I have only one more question to the witness. BY DR. SEIDL:
Q. Witness, in paragraph 4 of the decree of 3 June 1942, the following is ordered, and I quote literally.
"The SS and police leaders in the districts, in the same way as the State Secretary for Security, are subordinate immediately to the governors of the district." only the police leaders.
of the Security Police and the SD were forwarded to the governors or immediately to the officers of the Security Police in the district?
A. These orders were always sent immediately to the commanding officers of the SD and Security Police. They could not be given any directives.
Q. If I understand you correctly, you intend to say that the channel within the Security Police and the SD had absolutely nothing to do with the administrative organization of the Government General.
A. Yes.
DR. SEIDL: I have no more questions to the witness.
THE PRESIDENT: The witness can retire.
DR. SEIDL: With the permission of the Tribunal I call as the next witness the former Governor of Cracow, Dr. Kurt von Burgsdorf.
DR. KURT VON BURGSDORF, a witness, took the stand and testified as follows: BY THE PRESIDENT:
Q. Will you state your full name?
A. Kurt von Burgsdorf.
Q. Will you repeat this oath after me:
"I swear by God, the Almight and Omniscient, that I will speak the pure truth and will withhold and add nothing."
(The witness repeated the oath.) BY DR. SEIDL:
Q. Witness, the government general was divided into five districts, of which you were in charge of one; is that correct?
A. Yes.
Q. On the 1st of December 1943 until the occupation of your district by Soviet troops you were governor of the district Cracow?
A. Yes. If I may express myself correctly, I was only concerned -
GENERAL RUDENKO: Mr. President, the defense counsel has put the question of the occupation of this region by Soviet troops. I energetically protest against such terminology and consider it as a hostile move.
DR. SEIDL: Mr. President, I have just been told that maybe there was a mistake in the translation. I did not intend to say any more than that in the course of the year 1944 the area in which this witness was governor was occupied by the Soveit troops in the course of military action. I don't know what the Sovietn prosecutor is protesting to; it is far from me to make any hostile statements.
THE PRESIDENT: I think the point was it wasn't an occupation; it was a liberation by the Russian Army.
DR. SEIDL: Of course; I did not want to say any more than that the German troops were chased out of that area by the Soviet troops.
Will you please continue with your answer?
THE WITNESS: I was in charge of the activities of the governor -- that is the correct expression. Until a few months ago I was still an officer of the armed forces; and during my entire activity in Cracow I remained an officer in the armed forces. BY DR. SEIDL:
Q. Witness, according to your observation what was the attitude, the principle attitude, of the governor general toward the Polish and Ukrainian people?
A. I want to exphasize that I can answer for the year 1944. At that time the attitude of the governor general was such that he intended to see through a peaceful life.
Q. Is it correct that already in 1942 the governor general had given the opportunity to the governors to form administrative committees consisting of Poles and Ukrainians?
A. There was a governmental decree to that extent. Whether that was from 1942 or not I do not know.
Q. Did you make use of the possibility of establishing committees in the district?
A. In the district of Cracow I established immediately committees of that kind in every county.
Q. Witness, according to your observation what was the food situation in the general government and particularly in your district?
A. It was not unsatisfactory, but I have to say that the reason for that was that besides the Russians, for the Polish population there was an extensive black market.
Q. According to your observation what was the attitude of the governor general concerning the question of the recruiting of labor?
A. He did not intend to send any workers outside of the government general because he was interested in retaining the necessary manpower within the country.
Q. The church in the government general -- was it persecuted by the governor general, and what was, according to your observation, the attitude of the governor general?
A. Again I can only answer for my district and for the year 1944. There was no persecution of churches at that time; on the contrary, the relations with the churches of all kinds were good in my district, and I have always received the clergymen on my travels and I have never heard any complaint.
Q. Did you have any personal experience with the governor general with regard to these questions?
A. Yes. In the middle of January 1944 I was received by the governor general, who at the same time was the Party leader in the government general, and I received a Party office for the district of Cracow. And in the same manner, as I told the Minister of the Interior,Himmler before, I pointed out to him that I was a convinced Christian. The governor general said that this was in no way disturbing to him, and he knew of no point in the Party program which would exclude that.
Q. What, according to your observation, was the relation between the governor general and the administration of the government general on one side to the Security Police and the SD on the other side?
A. Doubtlessly a bad one internally, and that for the reason that the police always did what they wanted and were not concerned with the administration, the desires of the administration. Therefore all over the country there was friction between the officers of the administration and the police.
Q. Is it correct that when you took officer- rather a short time laterthe governor general issued directives referring to the police? I quote from the diary of the defendant Dr. Frank, the note of the 4th of January 1944. "The governor general issued directives to Dr. von Burgsdorf about his activity. It would be his mission to inform himself as a matter of principle about all conditions in the district. First of all, it should be his job to counteract any perpetrations by the police."
A. That conversation of the 4th of January 1944 I can not remember today, but is may have occurred. However, I remember that after I was put in office November 1943 I had gone to see the governor general once more and told him that I had heard that the relations with the police were quite unfavorable and causing great difficulty for the administration.
He said that he did what he could in order to bring reason into these, relations. On the basis of this statement by the governor general I finally decided to remain in the government general, and as it is well known I had refused the Minister of the Interior of the Reich to go there initially.
Q. In your position as governor did you have any authority over the Security Police and the SD?
A. In no way whatsoever.
Q. Did you yourself ever see a directive of the police?
A. No, never; police channels go definitely directly from the highest to the next lower and then to the lowest.
officials; from the supreme commander of the Security Police to the commanders. administration of concentration camps?
Q Do you know who administered the concentration camps? some central office in Berlin with the Reich Fuehrer SS Himmler. Majdanek?
AAbout two weeks ago; a fortnight ago. Polish territory, that not before your captivity did you find out about it?
A Yes, I am convinced; I am absolutely sure that I only heard about it from you. Treblinka? having decreed a law for courts martials in the year 1943. What at that time was the situation concerning security in the government general?
AAgain I can only judge that for the year 1944. As German troops came back from the East, had to retire from the East, it became worse and worse, so that in my district in an increasing measure a regular administration could no more be carried out. in the agricultural sector and the sector of trade, and can one way that in considerable of war-time conditions the governor general had done everything to improve conditions? trades and in agriculture. There were industries which had been transferred from the Reich to the government general, and as far as agriculture is concerned the administration brought in seed and livestock; also horses were raised in my district to a large extent.
Q The defendant Dr. Frank has been accused with regard to public health and hygienic conditions, -- not to have done everything that was necessary. What can you say about that point? and some new ones installed. But especially in the field of fighting epidemics a great deal had been done. Typhus, dysentery, and typhoid were greatly reduced by vaccination.
Q The defendant Dr. Frank was also accused of neglecting education. Do you know anything about that, about conditions in the government general? left. Thereupon and on the basis of other experiences I suggested immediately to reinstate higher Polish schools. I contacted the president of the then department Hauptabteilung who told me these plans existed already with the government, and in everyone of my monthly reports I pointed the necessity of re-establishing these schools, and because of that during a very short period a lot of specialists, technicians, and doctors attended.
Q Now, one last question. There was a so-called work district of the NSDAP in the government general, and you were the leader of that district for Cracow. What was the relation between the governor general and the leader of the Party Chancellery Bormann? miserable one. As a district leader that office was connected with that of the government. I witnessed the last great struggle of the governor general against Bormann. The governor general--and with full right from his point of view--considered it necessary to keep the Party office separated from the administrative office. He was afraid that otherwise there would be too much interference not only by the police but also by the Party,and that he wanted to prevent. Bormann on the other hand, also in the government general, wanted to re-establish the predominance of the Party over the state, and that caused the most serious conflict.
DR. SEIDL: I have no further questions.
THE PRESIDENT: Do any of the other defense counsel wish to ask any other questions?
DR. LUEDINGHAUSEN: Dr. Luedinghausen, counsel for von Neurath, BY DR. LUEDINGHAUSEN: Protectorate of Bohemia and Moravia? When was that? Frank or to the Reich Proectorate. Neurath as Reich Protector?
Q What kind of work did you have to do as Undersecretary?
Q Was the Police and SS subordinate to you?
Q To whom were they subordinate?
Q What was the position of State Secretary Frank to von Neurath? What was the position of State Secretary Frank in relation to von Neurath?
A You mean officially? Frank's position became, the more impossible it became for von Neurath. State Secretary Frank, and later Minister Frank, was backed up by the entire power of SS and the Police and he also had the backing of Hitler.
Q From whom did Frank get his orders?
AAccording to my knowledge, from Himmler: however, I witnessed once or twice that he was called, directly by Hitler about, his directives.
Q And that happened by sidetracking von Neurath? could act without having the approval of von Neurath?
rate he did so. toward the Czech people; were von Neuratch and Frank of one opinion concerning the policy toward the Czech people?
A No. Von Neurath could not do anything, being confronted with the power of Himmler and Hitler.
Q What was the policy of von Neurath himself? much about these things with von Neurath. He hoped and believed, on the basis of the decree of the 15th of March, to achieve a reasonable and peaceful cooperation between Germans and Czechs in the Protectorate.
Q But due to the increasing power of Frank, that failed, didn't it? disturbances broke out among the students in Prague? Neurath and Frank flow to Berlin? day? I do not remember whether he came alone.
Q So you wouldn't know if von Neurath returned with him? the student disturbances and what the consequences were? executed and the schools were closed.
Q Do you know whether that was on the order of Hitler? Catholic and Protestant church?
the churches as long as I was there. the Arch-Bishop of Prague until the latter's death?
A No, I don't knew anything about that. Neurath, with his approval or upon his orders, art treasures of any kind, pictures, monuments, sculptures, libraries, or such, from State or private property, had been confiscated and had been brought out of the country?
A Upon his orders, such things certainly have never happened. Whether he approved at any specific time, I do not know but I do not believe so. I remember one incident in the Maltese (?) Palace, where some Reichoffice -and I don't remember today which it was -- removed art. Here, von Neurath immediately did everything in order to repair the damage. the Protectorate and Germany, was not carried out for a long time, upon orders of von Neurath?
A Yes. I know about that definitely; however, I have to add that also State Secretary Frank at that time was against that customs union, because just as von Neurath, he believed that the economy of the Protectorate would experience difficulties and damage from the stronger economy of Germany. deportation of workers?
A I am convinced that did not happen. Workers were recruited but in a definitely regular manner. That happened already while I was still in the Protectorate. for travel to be dependent upon his official approval in or out of the Protectorate?
A Whether or not von Neurath did it, I do not know. At any rate, it was necessary to get approval.
THE PRESIDENT: Try to keep it a bit slower and try to go a little bit slower. This light is continually coming on.
Q Do you know anything about the closing of middle schools?
Q What do you remember about them? a necessary consequence, of the closing of colleges. There had been too many little schools in the Protectorate. Not all of them were closed. Specialist schools, trade schools, were approved and probably also reestablished. intended Germanization of Czechoslovakia, intended by Himmler? about that whole affair, and that memorandum was intended to counteract those plans by Himmler of a forced Germanization. Von Neurath was of the opinion, as he told me frequently, that such tendencies and intentions of Germanization were not desirable in the interest of the Protectorate.
DR. VON LUEDINGHAUSEN: I have no more questions.
THE PRESIDENT: Does the Prosecution wish to cross examine?
BY MR. DODD: Party?
Q And did you achieve office in any of its affiliated organizations?
Q Any other honors? time, I was charged with legal affairs of the Gau Saxonia.
Q Weren't you also an Oberbannfuehrer in the H. J.,the Hitler Jugund? Fuehrer Baldur von Schirach. But that was purely a matter of politeness which had no consequences.
I Would like to say one more thing. Since you speak of party offices, as it was said before, in consequence of my position as Governor in Cracow, from January 1944 until the end, that is, the middle of January 1945, I wan district leader. not?
Q Weren't you in some way associated with Reinhard Heydrich when you were in Prague?
A No. I was with Heydrich until the middle of March 1942. Then, as was generally known, on account of the tendencies of Heydrich, I left the Protectorate, and as a man of forty-five I went into the army.
Q What position did you occupy with relation to Heydrich?
A The same as under von Neurath; I was Understate Secretary.
Q Let me put it to you this way; You told us that you never heard of Maidanek, the concentration camp?
Q And you never heard of Auschwitz?
Q Had you heard of an installation known as Lublin?
A Of Lublin? Not of the concentration camp but of the City of Lublin, of course.
Q Did you know of a concentration camp by the name of Lublin? name?
MR. DODD: That is all.
THE PRESIDENT: Have you any questions?
DR. SEIDL: I have no more questions to the witness.
THE PRESIDENT: Who is your next witness?
DR. SEIDL: The next witness would to the former secretary of the Governor General Kraffczyk.
However, If I 4.30?
THE PRESIDENT: The Tribunal will adjourn now (A recess was taken until Tuesday, April 23.)
____________
THE PRESIDENT: Dr. Seidl.
DR. SEIDL (Counsel for Hans Frank): Mr. President, the witness Strube, chief of the Central Department and in charge of food in the Government General, will not be needed by me, and with the permission of the Tribunal, I am now calling witness Dr. Joseph Buehler.
____________
JOSEPH BUEHLER, a witness, took the stand and testified as follows: BY THE PRESIDENT:
Q Will you state your full name, please?
Q Will you repeat this oath after me: truth, and will withhold and add nothing.
(The witness repeat the oath.)
THE PRESIDENT: You may sit down. BY DR. SEIDL:
Q Witness, since when do you know defendant Dr. Hans Frank, and what were the positions in which you worked under him? worked with him since the end of March,933. I have served under him in his capacity as Minister of Justice in Bavaria, and later as Reich Commissioner for Justice, and later still in his capacity as Minister. Beginning at tge end of September 1939 Frank employed me in the Government General. in the Government of the Government General.
Q Were you yourself a member of the Party?
organizations of the Party, that is to say, the SA or the SS?
A I have never exercised any functions within the Party. I was never a member of the SA or the SS. te were the chief of the government in the Government General. Will you please tell me what the relations between the Government on one side and the Higher SS and Police Leader on the other side were?
jurisdiction did not touch upon the police matters, matters relating be the Party or military matters in the Government General. Police Leader who was attached to him by the Chief of the German Police and SS, that being Obergruppenfuehrer Krueger, were right from the beginning, disturbed by very deep differences of opinion. These differences of opinion concerned both the conception regarding the task and position of the police in an orderly State system, as well as, in particular, the position and tasks of the police in the Government General. must be the servant and the organ for the executive of the State, and that, according to that view, he and the State Departments would be giving orders to the police. From this arrangement it would arise that the Police would simultaneously have to have its tasks and influence limited to some extent. represented the view that the police would have executive tasks originating from the State, but that even in the carrying out of these tasks it would not have to be bound to the instructions coming from administrative sources. He considered that here one was concerned with actual police questions and tasks, the decisions for which could not be made by administrative sources who were not suited for making them.
Regarding the power to give orders to police, it was Krueger's view that because of the power and the type of activity of the police in all occupied territories, such orders could only come centrally from Berlin, and that orders in the Government General could only exclusively come through him.
it was Krueger's opinion that the views of the Governor General regarding the limitarions of the sphere became superfluous, simply because he, as Higher SS and Police leader, was simultaneously the deputy of the Reichsfuehrer SS in his capacity as Reich Commissioner for the strengthening of German nationalism. was Krueger's view that during work in a foreign theater, the point of view of the police would have to be put into first place. He considered that everything could be achieved and everything could be prevented by means of the police system. This overestimate of the powers of the police sector led, for instance, to the fact that during later argument regarding respective spheres of influence which took place between the police and the administration, the tasks listed for the police included such matters as foreign national problems.
Q Do you know that as early as '39 the Reichsfuehrer SS Himmler issued an interim decree, according to which all police matters were his own affair or the affair of his Higher SS and Police leader? taken by the police. I did not see a decree of that type, but I can say this upon this matter: The police, in the Government General, acted exactly as I described it before. Secretariat of State for the Security System. Who brought about the creation of that institution and what position did the Governor General hold in that connection? What views did he have? against the person of the Governor General. The Secretariat for the Security System was considered by the police to be an important step in the fight for the removal of the Governor General. The matters contained in that decree hadn't been transferred to the police at that instant, or at least the majority of them, not as late as that.