Q Did you ever have hostages shot?
A My diary contains the facts. I myself have never had hostages shot.
Q Did you ever participate in the destruction of Jews? impression of these five months of this trial, and particularly under the impression of the statements made by the witness Hoess, I cannot allow it before my conscience that responsibility for all this should be handed over to these small people alone. I myself have never installed an extermination camp for Jews or demanded that they should be installed, but if Adolf Hitler personally has turned that dreadful responsibility over to these people of his, then it must be mine too. We have fought against Jewry; we have fought against it for years; and we have allowed ourselves to make utterances, and my own diary has become a witness against me in this connection -- utterances which are terrible. It is my duty -- my only duty -therefore, to answer your question in this connection with Yes. A thousand years will pass and this guilt of Germany will still not be erased. the Reich when you were Governor General?
A I beg your pardon? Reich?
A The policy is contained in my decrees. No doubt they shall be held against me by the Prosecution, and I consider it will save time if I answer that question later, with the permission of the Tribunal. exercise your duty as Governor General? special train Adolf Hitler gave me the instruction that I should see toit that this territory, which had been completely destroyed, where all bridges had been blown up, all railways destroyed, and where the population was completely displaced, was put into order somehow, and that I should see to it that this territory could become a cooperative addition to the terribly difficult economic situation in the Reich.
Q Did Adolf Hitler support you in your work as Governor General? dropped into the wastepaper basket by him. I didn't offer my resignation fourteen times for nothing. It wasn't for nothing that I tried to join my brave troops as an officer. He, inside, was opposed to lawyers, and that was one of the most serious shortcomings of this great man. He did not want to recognize formal responsibility, and that, unfortunately, applies to his policy too. Every legal man to him was a disturbing influence for his power. All I can say, therefore, is that by joining Himmler and Bormann in their course and supporting their aims to every extent, that in this manner any attempt to find a form worthy of the German name was useless. regarding the administration of the Government General? Buehler should state the whole structure of that administration.
Q Witness, did you ever secure art treasures? worst, is that I myself am supposed to have enriched myself from art treasures from the country which was entrusted to me. I had not installed museums and picture collections, and I didn't find time during this war to steal art treasures. I have seen to it that the entire art property of the country which was entrusted to me was officially registered, and that official register is contained in a document which was published quite openly. I have seen to it more than anything that these art treasures, right to the very end, remained in the country. In spite of that, art treasures have been taken away from the Government General. A part was taken away before my administration became active at all. Experiences show that responsibility on the part of an administration can only be talked about after some time of running, namely, when the lowest level of the administration has been installed. So that from the beginning of the war, the 1st of September 1939, until this point, which was about New Year's, 1939 or 1940, there was an uncontrollable measure of removal and uncontrollable extent under which art treasures were removed eitheras booty of war or under some other pretext.
During the registration of art treasures, Adolf Hitler gave the order that the Veit Stoss altar should be removed from St. Mary's Church in Cracow and taken to to the Reich. The Mayor Liebel, from Nurnberg, came to Cracow personally for that purpose with a number of SS men to take away this altar. Another case, the articles were confiscated in Lemberg before my time came and they were etchings by Duerer. In 1944, shortly before the collapse, art treasures were taken to the Reich and in the Castle of Seichau, in Silesia, there was a collection of art treasures which had been put there by Profesor Kneisl. One last collection of art treasures was handed over to the American by me personally.
Q Witness, did you, in the Government General, introduce ghettos? ling districts. I can't remember the date at the moment. The necessities for this, I should like to explain to the prosecutors.
Q Did you introduce the marking of Jewish persons?
Q Did you, in the Government General, introduce forced labor? but it comes quite clear from the wording that I was only thinking of a duty to work in the land, in the country in this connection, so as to repair the damage caused by war and for the purpose of carrying out work which was necessary for the country itself, which is of course the same degree of labor which had to be carried out in the Reich. plunder libraries?
A I can answer that question clearly with "no". The largest and most valuable library which we found, which is the Jakelon (?) University Library in Cracow which fortunately was undestroyed, was transferred to another building by my own personal orders, and in its entire property, including the oldest documents, were looked after there, as necessary. Government General? ved, because of the war. The reopening of universities was prohibited by order of Adolf Hitler.
I have dealt with the needs of the Polish and Ukrainian population by introducing high school courses of instruction for Polish and Ukrainian students which were in fact nothing other than the work done by high school that the departments in the Reich could not criticize this action of mine in any way. The university life was in fact continuing to a degree, restricted by since the requirements for home-trained academic persons, that is, doctors, legel men, teachers and medical men did, of course, exist.
THE PRESIDENT: Would that be a convenient time to break off for ten minutes?
(A recess was taken).
Q Witness, we were last speaking of the universities. Did you yourself as Governor General close the middle schools? was rejecte d by Adolf Hitler. Then we solved the problem by continuing the middle school education on a private basis to a further extent. administered as G eneral Governor was plundered by you. What do you say about that? economic things that have gone on in that country in connection with the G erman Reich. First, I would like to emphasize that the G overnment General was faced with a terrible economic crisis from the beginning.
The country had approximately twelve million inhabitants. The area of the Government General was the least fertile part of the former Polan. Then the border against the Soviet Union as well as the one between the Government General and the Reich had been fixed in such a way that the most essential and for the economic life most important elements were left outside, The borders toward the Soviet Union and the German Reich were closed immediately and thus it came about that at first we had to work from nothing into nothing. the point of view of nutrition went to the Soviet Union, The province of Posen now belonged to the German Reich. Coal and industrial areas of Upper Silesia were within the German Reich. The borders to Germany were fixed in such a way that the iron in Czenstochowa remai ned with the Government General. However, the areas from which, the ores came, ten kilometers from Czenstochowa were incorporated into the German Reich. man Reich. The City of Warsaw with a population of millions became a border city because the German border came as close as fifteen kilometers to that city and the result was that the entire agricultural hinterland of that city was no longer at their disposal and thus a large number of of individual facts could be mentioned but that would lead too far afield.
Therefore, first one had to see that life could continue somehow. only be acquired with the aid of German institutions for mass feeding. The German Reich at that time sent six hundred thousand tons of grain and that created a hard responsibility for me. I received from the Reich as advance. If I had to start an economy which had been destroyed by the war as that was and if I think in the year 1944 on the first of January the savings accounts of the native population amounted to eleven and a half billions of zloti and that we had succeeded until then to improve the nutrition of the population to a certain.
extent and if furthermore, I may point out that during that period as to all reconstructed factories and industrial centers which had taken place and in which the Reich Offices had taken great interest, especially Reich Marshal Goering and Minister Speer have acquired great meric in that connection in aiding the reconstruction of the industry of the country, and that in that industry more than two million fully paid and employed workers were working; that the result of the harvest had come to 1.6 billion tons; that the yearly budget of twenty million zloti in the year 1939 had increased to 1.7 billion zloti; then these are only sketchy points which I may offer to try to describe the general development.
you had under your administration, did you prosecute churches and religion? continuous personal contact. He told me about all his complaints and they were not few. I myself had to intervene for the Bishop of Lublin and to get him out of the hands of Mr. Globotchnik in order to save his life.
Q You mean the Gruppenfuehrer? letter which he sent to me in 1942 and in which he said literally that he thanked me for my tireless efforts to secure church life. the arrest of priests as much as that was humanly possible. The tragic cases of the two assistants of the Archbishop Sabieha who had been shot and which has been mentioned here once by the I prosecution, that has touched me deeply myself. I cannot say anymore. The churches were open, the seminars were educating priests, the priests had possibilities for normal functions. The monestary at Czenstochowa was under my personal protection. The monestary of the Camaldulenziaus near Cracow, an order, was also under my personal protection. There were large posters around the monestary indicating that these monestaries were protected by me personally. concentration camp at Maidanek? foreign reports. But there were for years about that camp in Lublin or near Lublin contradictory reports.
Governor Zoerner reported to me, I believe already in 1941, that the SS had established or intended to establish a large concentration camp near Lublin and had sent large orders for building materials. At that time I charged State Secretary Buehler to investigate that matter immediately and I received the report later in writing also from Reichsfuehrer SS Himmler that he had to establish a large camp in order to take care of the requirements of the Waffen SS for clothes and shoes by manufacturing them in large shops. Thus, that camp was established under the title of "SS Works" or something similar. witnesses who have been heard thus far have said under oath that in the circles of the Fuehrer one did not know anything about all these things. We out there were apparently more independent and I heard quite a lot through enemy broadcasts and enemy and neutral papers or upon continuous questioning as to what was to happen to the Jews who were deported I was always told they were to be sent to the East, to be collected there, and to work there. But, so to say, through the walls one could smell the stench and therefore I always insistently investigated what was going on. on near Belsak. I went to Belsak the next day. Globotschnik showed me a tremendous ditch which he had set up as a protective wall with many thousand workers, apparently Jews. I spoke to some of then, asked them where they came from, how long they were there and he told me, that is Globotschnik: "They work here now and after they are through -- they care from the Reich or somewhere from France, and then they will be sent further to the east." In that area I did not make any further observation. to the entire world, that rumor aid not die. When I mentioned my wish to visit the SS workshops near Lublin in order to get some impressions about the value of the work I was told that I need special permission from Heinrich Himmler.
I requested Heinrich Himmler that for special permission and he stated that he would urge me not to go to that camp. for the third time, that is, during the war, to be received by Adolf Hitler personally. In the presence of Bormann, I put the question to him: "My Fuehrer, rumors about the extermination of the Jews do not cease. One hears them everywhere; one cannot see anything. In Auschwitz I had arrived once surprisingly to see the camp and I was told that there was an epidemic in the camp and, before I over got there, I had to take a detour. I say, My Fuehrer, what is beind all that?" The Fuehrer said, "You can very well imagine that there are executions that take place. Otherwise, I do not know anything. Why don't you speak to Heinrich Himmler about that?" And I said, "Well, Himmler has made a speech in Cracow, as I asked him to, in which he, in front of all the employees whom I had called and assembled, declared that those rumors about the systematic extermination of the Jews was false; the Jews were just brought to the East." Then the Fuehrer said, "Then you have to believe that." foreign press, my first question was to the SS Obergruppenfuehrer Koppe, who had been put in the place of Krueger. "Now we know," I said, "you will not be able to dispute that," And he said that nothing was known to him about these events; apparently that was something between Heinrich Himmler and the people there in the camp, "But", I said, "I have already in 1941 heard about such places and I have also mentioned them; I have spoken about them." So he said, "Well, this is your business." He couldn't worry about it. The Camp of Maidanek was administered by the SS in the sense which I've mentioned before and, apparently, in the same manner as the witness Hoess has mentioned it. That is the only explanation that I can find. Auschwitz, and so on?
A Does Treblinka belong to Maidanek or is that a separate camp?
Q I don't knew; it seems to be a separate camp. Auschwitz is not in the area of the Government General.
Q The Prosecution under No. USA 275 presented the report of the SS Brigadefuehrer about the extermination of the Warsaw Ghetto. Before that took place, did you know anything about that and have you ever seen that report? speech admitted the document here with pictures about the destruction of the Warsaw Ghetto; when he said that that report was sent to me. But that has been clarified in the meantime. The report was never sent to me and I have never seen it in that form. And, thank Heavens, through several witnesses and affidavits most recently, it has been explained that this destruction of the Ghetto in Warsaw took place upon a directive by Himmler and without any interference of Government General. If in our meeting anybody spoke about that Ghetto, they always said that was the revolt in the Ghetto of Warsaw which we had to fight down with artillery; reports which existed, about that never seemed credible to me. Government General? agriculture, to get agricultural machines, to distribute seeds, and the usual forms.
A The Reich helped a great deal in that respect. The Reich sent for many millions of marks, seed experts, livestock machines, etc. welfare of the population of the Government General; but the Prosecution accused you of having made a number of statements, and they found then in your own diary, which seemed to contradict that. How can you explain that contradiction?
A One has to take the diary as a whole. Forty-three volumes cannot be read to easily, and it is impossible to take individual sentences out of their contents.
Generally, I would like to say that I would not argue about words. It was a wild stormy period, with terrible passions, and in the tempest of the flaming country and of a decisive struggle for life or death such words may easily fall. was shocked about many words which I've said. which deals with a conference which you apparently had in '39 or '40 with an officer, the Supreme Chief of the Administration, Ober-Ost, I will have the document handed to you and ask you to tell me whether the report of that man as it is contained in the document agrees with what you have said, It is on page 1, on the bottom, the second paragraph. That is a shortened summary of a speech.
THE PRESIDENT: Dr. Frank, what is the number?
THE WITNESS: 297, I believe.
DR. SEIDL: I beg your pardon. On the cover?
THE WITNESS: On the cover it says 244. I will return the document. Would you kindly ask me about the individual contents?
DR. SEIDL: The number is 297, Mr. President.
THE PRESIDENT: Yes, it is USA 297. It is EC-344, 16, 17; is that right?
DR. SEIDL: Yes. BY DR. SEIDL: the Central Department had with the Reich Minister Frank on the 3rd of October, 1939, in Posen, the latter presented the task which had been given him by the Fuehrer and the ways in which he intended to administer his area. Therefore, it would be necessary to recruit manpower to be used in the Reich, and so on.
I have just summarized it, Mr. President.
that man? had been spoken. perpetrations by the police and SD were based on the activities of guerrilla bands?
A Bands? One has to say that was the resistance movement which from the first day on was very active and, by supporting our enemies in the war, presented the most difficult problem which I had to cope with during all these years. For this resistance movement was the internal complex for excuses for the police and SS at the occasion of all measures which, from the point of a regular administration, were very regrettable. In fact, that resistance movement, I would not like to call "bands", groups of bandits, because, if a people has been conquered during a war and organizes an active resistance movement, then that is something entirely different; but the methods of the resistance movement departed to a large extent from that framework of a heroic struggle of resistance.
circumstances. German officials were shot; trains were derailed; dairies were destroyed; and all measures which would have led to improvement of conditions in the coutry were undermined systematically. day almost during the entire period of my activity, one has to see the events in that country. That is all that I could say in that connection now.
Q. Wilness, in the year 1944 under General Bor a revolt broke out in Warsaw. What was the part of the administration of the Government General? What was your part in the conquering of that revolt?
A. That revolt broke out when the Russian Army had approached to about 30 kilometers on the eastern back of the Vistula. It was a sort of combined operation, and, as it seems to me, also a national Polish operation, as the Poles at that last moment wanted to carry out the liberation of their capital on their own and did not want to owe it to the Soviet Russians. They probably were thinking of how in Paris at the last moment the Resistance Movement, even before the Allies had approached, had carried out the liberation of the city.
The operation was a military one. As Supreme 'Commander of the German troops which had to fight the revolt, I believe SS General von dem Bach-Zelews was appointed. The civilian administration, therefore, did not have any part in these struggles. The part of the civilian administration begins after the capitulation of General Bor when the most atrocious orders of vengeance came from the Reich.
A.letter flew upon my table one day in which Hitler demanded the deportation of the entire population of Warsaw into concentration camps. It took a struggle of three weeks in which I was victorious in order to avert that insanity and to achieve that the population of Warwas which had had no part in the revolt could be distributed over the Government General. the city of Warsaw. Everything which had been rebuilt during several years had burned down during a few weeks. Besides, State Secretary Buehler in order to save time could give us more information about details.
Q. Witness, you are also accused of having suppressed the cultural life of the population of the Government General, especially in the field of Theater, broadcasting, film -- what can you say about that?
A. The Government General offered the same pictures of every occupied country. We do not nave to look far into the country now from this court room in order to see how an occupied country lives.
We had broadcasting in the Polish language under German supervision. We had a Polish press which was supervised by Germans, and we had a Polish school system, that is, elementary schools and high schools, in which at the end, 80,000 teachers taught in the service of the Government General. Polish theaters, as much as it was possible, in large cities were reopened, and where German theaters were established, we made sure that there was also a Polish theater at the same time. occasion of the proclamation of the so-called total war, when the German theater was closed in Cracow because all German theaters were closed at that time, that the Polish theaters continued to play. found there in 1939, selected composers and virtuosos and founded the Philharmonic Orchestra of the General Government, which took an important part in the cultural life of Poland. I established a Chopin museum in Cracow, and from all over Europe I collected the last relics of Chopin.
Q. I believe that is sufficient. Witness, you deny, therefore, to have taken any measures which would have been directed to exterminating Polish and Ukrainian culture.
A. Culture cannot be exterminated. Any measures which would be taken wit that intention would be sheer nonsense.
Q. Is it correct that as much as it was in your power you have done everything in order to avoid epidemics and to improve the state of health of the population?
I can say that everything humanly possible was done. mitted an excerpt from a diary which deals with the report about a police conference of the 30th of May 1940, and we find here from pages 33 to 38 the following--
A. (Interposing) Unless the Court orders it, you don't have to read that. Cracow professors. Apparently, if that diary is correct, you have said-
A (Interposing) May I say something about the Cracow professors right away?
On the 7th of November 1939, I came to Cracow. On the 5th of Nov ember 1939 before my arrival, SS and police, as I found out later, called the Cracow professors to a meeting. Then they took the men, dignified, old men among them, and brought them into some concentration camp. I believe it was Oranienburg. I found that report, and against everything which may be found there in my diary, I want to emphasize here under oath that I did not cease in my attempts to get the last one of the professors whom I could reach to be released in March 1940. That is all which I have to say to this with the so-called A.B. Action, that is, with the extraordinary with it, I would like to read to you two entries in the diary. One is of the 16th of May 1940, and here, after describing that extraordinary tension then existin, you have stated the following: and then you said: "Each terror action has to be avoided; in all cases the authority of the Fuehrer and of the Reich has to be in the foreground."
I omit several sentences and quote the end:
"The action will go at first until the 15th of June." Wille, who was the chief of the Main Department Justice, and there you have said literally about the question what should happen to the political criminals which had been arrested during the A.B. Action:
"There is to be a conference with State Secretary Buehler, Obergruppenfuehrer Streckenbach, and Ministerialrat Wille." End of quotation.
What actually happened during that A,B. Action? diary. The situation was extremely tense. Month after month assassinations increased. The general attitude of the rest of the world against all our efforts, to pacify the country which supported the resistance movement had reached an extraordinary measure, and thus it came to those general measures, not only in the Government General but also in other areas; and that was ordered by the Fuehrer. individual actions, and I was successful in that. Besides, I should like to emphasize that I have also directed that I intended to use the right of clemency in each individual case, and for that purpose wanted to see the police and SS verdicts and wanted to have them presented to a committee which I had formed in that connection. I believe that must be found in the diary also.
used at that time was a trememdous mistake. troduced by the SD and SS about the responsibility of the Sippe or family?
A No, on the contrary. When I received the first reports about it, I complained to Reich Minister Lammers about that peculiar idea. Krueger. When was this SS leader recalled and how did it come about? impossible, he founded an SS and police regime and it could not be solved in any other way but that either he or I had to go, I think that at the last moment, by intervention of Kaltenbrunner, if I remember correctly, and of Bach-Zelewski, that peculiar fellow was removed. struggle for power, or is it, rather, correct that there were differences of opinion in basic questions?
A Of course it was a struggle for power. I wanted to establish power in the sense of my memoranda to the Fuehrer, and therefore I had to fight the power by violence. Obergruppenfuehrer Koppe. Were his principal ideas different?
A Yes. I had that impression, and I am thinking of him when I say that even in the SS, especially in the SS, there were many decent people, very sensitive in mat tars of law. Ukrainian police? and order police, and about 5,000 man of Ukrainian police. They also were under the German police chief.
Q Witness, now I come to one of the most important questions.
In 1942, in Berlin, Vienna, Heidelberg, and Munich, you made speeches before large audiences. What was the purpose of these addresses and what were the consequences for you?
A The speeches can be read. It was the last effort that I made to persuade Hitler, by the tremendous resonance of the German people, about the necessity of law. I stated at that time that the Reich could not exist without law, and more in that vein. After I had been under police surveillance for several days in Munich and in places of these speeches, I lost all my Party functions. Since it was a matter of superior policy under the sovereignty of the German Reich, I would not like to make any more statements about it. resignation, and what was the answer? received the same answer, that for foreign political reasons I could not be released. number of quotations which the Prosecution has submitted, but in consideration of the fact that the Prosecution may do that in the course of the cross examination, I forego that and at the time I have no more questions to the witness.
THE PRESIDENT: Does any other member of the defendants' counsel wish to ask any questions?
Does the Prosecution wish be cross examine? BY COLONEL SMIRNOV: to your legal situation and the place you occupied in the Fascist State. Please tell me when you were named Governor of Occupied Poland and who you were directly subordinated to.
A The date is the 26th of October 1939. On that day, the directive about the Governor General was issued.
the 12th of October 1939 you were directly subordinated to Hitler, weren't you?
A I did not get the first part. What was it, please? nation be the post of Governor of Occupied Poland? It was dated the 12th of October 1939. October 1939 the decree came out, and you can find it in the Reichsgesetzblatt. Before that, as Chief of Administration, I was with the military commander. I have explained that already. subordinated to him. Do you remember that? Paragraph 3, Article 1.
A What kind of an order is that? I should like to see it, The chiefs of administration of the occupied territories were all immediately under the Fuehrer.
Yes, I can say for clarification that in Paragraph 3 it says:
"The Governor General is immediately subordinate to me."
But in paragraph 9, it says:
"This decree becomes valid as soon as I have withdrawn the Institution of the Military Administration."
Book V, which you no doubt know. subordinated to?
A What shall I read here? There are several marks here. October. Well, when this order came into force, whom were you subordinated to? Was there any other order changing this state of things?
A There is only one basic decree about the Governor General. That is this one.
Q It means that there was no other fundamental order of Hitler?
Q No, I mean determining the state of administration. Was there any other order? and there you have the decree of the Fuehrer verbatim.
Q Yes, that's right.
AAnd it says also in paragraph 9', "This decree shall be in effect ...." and so on, and that date was the 26th of October.
Q Yes, that is quite right. That means that on the 26th of October, for occupied Poland you were directly subordinated to Hitler, is that right? by whom were you nominated plenipotentiary for the carrying out of the Four-Year Plan in Occupied Poland?