sonally in this matter, and he used his power to terminate any legal proceedings. This particular case was, therefore, discontinued, and I declared that I would resign as Minister of Justice, but I was refused permission to do so. Territories and where did this nomination reach you? the reserve to join my regiment in Potsdam. At the time, when I was in the middle of training my company, it was on the 17th of September, or it may have been the 16th, when I was making my last preparations to march off to the front, that a telephone call came through from the special train of the Fuehrer, ordering me to go to the Fuehrer at once.
that special train was stationed at that time. At that time, in a very short conference which lasted less than ten minutes, he gave me the order, as he expressed himself at the time, to take over the functions of the Civilian Governor for Occupied Polish Territories.
administrative command of a military commander, General von Rundstedt. Towards the end of September, I was attached to von Rundstedt's staff as the Chief of the Administrative Section, and it was to be my job to deal with administrative tasks within the military set-up, but in a narrower sense it was discovered after a very brief period that this method could not be carried out, and so, with effect from the 26th of October, the Polish territories were sub-divided into one part which came to the German Reich and another part which then became the Government General, and I was appointed Governor General. the various periods. I am now asking you: Did you, in my of the positions you held in the Party or the State, participate decisively in the political events of the last 20 years? you can possibly be expected to do, being a man who believes in the greatness of his nation and being a man who believes in the National Socialist movement. So I did everything to bring about a victory of Adolf Hitler and the National Socialist movement. because I was not one of the immediate assistants of Adolf Hitler. I was therefore never consulted by Adolf Hitler on general political questions, nor did I take part at my time in conferences about such problems, be it alone for the reason that during all the years from 1933 until 1945 I was only received six times by Adolf Hitler personally to report to him about my sphere of activities.
Q What share did you have in legislation in the Reich? employment, want this war, or did you desire a war which would mean violation of agreements which had been made?
A One cannot want a war as such. A war is something terrible. We have lived through it; we did not want a war. We wanted Germany to be. great, and we wanted Germany to be free and healthy. It was my dream and the dream of every one of us to bring about a revision of the Versailles Treaty by peaceful means, which had been proposed in that very treaty. But since in this world of pacts between nations only that man who is strong has anything to say, Germany had to become strong first before we could negotiate. reinstitution of its sovereignty everywhere, and connected to that the possibility of liberation from the unbearable shackles which had been imposed upon our people. I was happy, therefore, that Adolf Hitler, in a rise unparalleled in the history of mankind, a wonderful rise, succeeded by the end of 1933 in achieving those very aims. I was equally unhappy when in 1939 I had to note that in an over increasing manner Adolf Hitler appeared to be departing from that method to replace it by others.
THE PRESIDENT: This seems to have been covered by what the defendant Goering told us, by what the defendant Ribbentrop told us.
DR. SEIDL: The witness hasalready completed his statement on this point. BY DR. SEIDL:
Q Witness, what was your share in the events in Poland after 1939? Adolf Hitler ended his life, I made a resolution that I would state that responsibility of mine to the world as clearly as I possibly could.
share I had in them, have not been destroyed by me, but, of my own free will, I have handed them voluntarily to the officers of the American Army who arrested me. law or having commited crimes against humanity?
THE PRESIDENT: That is a question that the Tribunal has go to decide.
DR. SEIDL: Then I shall drop the question. BY DR. SEIDL: tained in the Indictment against you? am asking this Tribunal to decide upon the degree of my guilt at the end of my case. I myself, speaking from the very depths of my sentiments and from the experience of five months of this trial, want to say that now that I have gained the last insight into all that which has been commited in the way of dreadful atrocities. I feel a terrible guilt with in me.
Q What ends did you have when you commenced to act as Governor General?
A I was not informed about any thing. I have heard about special action commandoes of the SS during this trial. And, closely connected with my nomination, special authorities were given to Himmler at once. My jurisdiction was limited, if not taken away from me, and economy, social policy, food policy, and so on, were all matters which were being dealt with by departments in the Reich. Therefore, I could only consider it my task to take care, amongst this sea of flames of this war, that some sort of an order should be created which would make it possible for man to live. ent, but must be judged in its entirety, and we shall have to come to that later. under your juridiction in the Government General? sfuehrer SS Himler. The SS did not come under my command, and any orders or instructions which I might have given would not have been obeyed. Witness Buehler will have to cover this question in detail.
formally speaking, come under my orders, but in fact, and in accordance with his activities, he was an organ of the Reichsfuehrer SS Himmler. first offer to resign, which I made to Adolf Hitler. It was a state of affairs which was making things more difficult as time went by. In spite of all my attempts to gain control in this sphere of influence, the deterioration continued more and more. To have an administration without a police executive is an impossibility, and this transpired more and more. orders were concerned, came exclusively under the German police system in the Reich, and there was no connection of any kind with the administration in the Government General. The officials of the SS and police did not regard the Government General as the home of their duty, and therefore the police area was not called "Police Area, Government General." The Higher SS and Police Leaders did not call themselves SS and Police Leaders in the Government General, but Higher SS and Police Leaders East.
However, I don't propose to go into detail at this point. you, and did you have anything to do with their administration? to do with the administration, Numbers of the civilian administration were officially prohibited from entering the camps.
Q Have you yourself ever been in a concentration camp? which had been organized for the Gauleiters at that time. That was the only time that I have entered such a camp. Security System in the Government General was created. The date is May, 1942. How did the creation of that secretariat come about? Government General. I was very happy at that time because I thought now we had found the way. I am certain it would have worked if Himmler and Krueger had ad Apr18-M-RT-4-3 against each other.
But it transpired, after a very short period, that this renewed attempt too was merely a camouflage and that the old conditions continued to prevail. came another decree regarding the transfer of the business to the Secretary of State for the Security System. Is that true?
A I assume so. I cannot remember the details of that document, of course.
A But I would like to say one thing in connection with that question. You are always speaking about the SS, and you are considering the SS and the police as one large complex. It would be an untruth if I did not correct that conception. The SS and the Waffen-SS and the Police have contained so many clean and soldierly men, whom I have met as the years went by, that the problem of the SS must be considered in connection with the judgment on the criminal activities which they have carried out.--and it can be as clearly separated here as it could be in any social question. The SS, as such, was no more criminal than would be any other mass which appears during certain political events. What was dreadful was that the highest chief and a number of others, who had been given considerable authority, were misusing the typically faithful attitude of the German soldier.
Q Witness, anothe question. In the decree concerning the creation of the State Secretariat for Security, It is ordered that this Secretary Of State-- which in this case is the Higher SS and Police Leaders--before making principal decisions, has to call on you for your agreement. Did that take place?
A No; I was never called upon in that connection, and this was the cause for me to realize the impossibility of this attempt, after so short a time, icularly, obey orders which you yourself had given him?
A Please, would you repeat the question? It didn't come through too well. And please, Dr. Seidl, you are speaking a little too loud. Security, obey orders which you gave him in your capacity as Governor General?
A In no single case. On the strength of this now decree I have repeatedly given orders. These orders were supposedly communicated to Heinrich Himmler, and since his agreement now became necessary these orders were never obeyed. Some special cases can be quoted by the Secretary of State Buehler when he is here as a Witness. before he carried out security police measures in the Government General, ever ask your agreement?
Q The Prosecution have submitted a document, L-47. It has the USA Exhibit No. 506. It is a letter from the commander of the security police and SD of the District of Radom, addressed to the outside service department at Gomachow. This document contains the following statement:
"The Higher SS and Police Leader East, on the 28th of June 1944, has given the following order:
"The security situation in the Government General has deteriorated so much during the recent months that the most severe measures and the most radical means must now be employed against such attackers and saboteurs. Reichsfuehrer SS, with agreement of the Governor General, has made his reply and stated that in every case where attacks or attempted attacks against Germans have taken place, not only the perpetrators should be shot when caught, but that over and above this all men of their plan should also be executed, and that females above the age of sixteen should be transferred to the concentration camp." SS Himmler was never called for in any single case. Your question has already been answered. In this case, too, it was not asked for.
Q Witness, were you at least, before the carrying; out of such orders from the Reichsfuehrer SS Himmler or the police leaders, previously informed?
A The reason given why this wasn't done was always the same. I was told that these people were living in the Government General but that they were also living in those territories which had been handed over to the Reich.
The combatting of the Polish resistance movement would have to come under unified control from some central source. This central source, of course, was Heinrich Himmler. administration? be asked about those questions. If the Tribunal so desires it, I would of course answer this question now. In the main I was concerned with the setting up of the usual administrative departments, such as the culture, finance, and science departments. the Government General?
A Yes. The Polish and Ukrainian population were dealt with according to regions. The representatives from the various districts were centralized at the head in the so-called assistance committees. There was a Polish and a Ukrainian assistance committee. At the head of the Polish assistance committee for a number of years was Count Roneker, and at the head of the Ukrainian assistance committee was Professor Kubiowicz. I made it compulsory to all my departments that whenever general questions arose they should be touched upon with those assistance committees, and that was in fact carried out. I myself have had continuous dealings with them all the way through. Complaints were brought to me and there was a free change of views. My complaints and memoranda which I sent to the Fuehrer, for instance, were mostly based on the reports I had from these assistance committees. administration of the Government General existed along the lowest level of administration, which in the entire Government General was left in the hands of the native population. Ten to twenty villages had as their head a so-called "Voyd". This Polish word Voyd is the same as the German word "Vogt" -- V-o-g-t. He was the, so to speak, lowest administrative unit.
administration was concerned was the fact that in the Government General, and including postal and railway service, 280,000 Poles and Ukrainians continued in the service of the state of the Government General as civil servants. servants?
A The figures varied. Among the German civil servants the number was very small. There were sometimes in the whole Government General, which is 150,000 square kilometers--that means it was half as large as Italy-40,000 German civil servants on the outside. That meant one German civil servant to an average of at least six non-German civil servants and employees.
Q Which territories did you administer as Government General? Soviet Russian forces was divided, first of all, between the Soviet Union and the German Reich. Of the 380,000 square kilometers--which is an approximate figure--of the Polish State, the Soviet Union received approximate] 200,000 square kilometers and the German Reich approximately 170,000 to 180,000 square kilometers. Please don't tie me down to figures too exactly; but that is roughtly what the situation was. was immediately treated as an integral part of the Soviet Union. The border demarcations in the east of the Government General were the ordinary Reich frontier demarcations of 1939. That part which came to Germany was divided thus; 90,000 square kilometers into the Government General and the remainder was included in the German Reich.
THE PRESIDENT: I don't think there is any charge against the Defendant on the ground that the civil administration was bad. The charge is that crimes were committed, and the details of the administration between the Government General and the department in the Reich are not really in question.
DR. SEIDL: The only reason, Mr. President, why I put that question was so as to show you the difficulties with which the administration had to cope right from the beginning, and which meant that an economic one was divided into two.
But I now come to the next question.
Q Did you ever have hostages shot?
A My diary contains the facts. I myself have never had hostages shot.
Q Did you ever participate in the destruction of Jews? impression of these five months of this trial, and particularly under the impression of the statements made by the witness Hoess, I cannot allow it before my conscience that responsibility for all this should be handed over to these small people alone. I myself have never installed an extermination camp for Jews or demanded that they should be installed, but if Adolf Hitler personally has turned that dreadful responsibility over to these people of his, then it must be mine too. We have fought against Jewry; we have fought against it for years; and we have allowed ourselves to make utterances, and my own diary has become a witness against me in this connection -- utterances which are terrible. It is my duty -- my only duty -therefore, to answer your question in this connection with Yes. A thousand years will pass and this guilt of Germany will still not be erased. the Reich when you were Governor General?
A I beg your pardon? Reich?
A The policy is contained in my decrees. No doubt they shall be held against me by the Prosecution, and I consider it will save time if I answer that question later, with the permission of the Tribunal. exercise your duty as Governor General? special train Adolf Hitler gave me the instruction that I should see toit that this territory, which had been completely destroyed, where all bridges had been blown up, all railways destroyed, and where the population was completely displaced, was put into order somehow, and that I should see to it that this territory could become a cooperative addition to the terribly difficult economic situation in the Reich.
Q Did Adolf Hitler support you in your work as Governor General? dropped into the wastepaper basket by him. I didn't offer my resignation fourteen times for nothing. It wasn't for nothing that I tried to join my brave troops as an officer. He, inside, was opposed to lawyers, and that was one of the most serious shortcomings of this great man. He did not want to recognize formal responsibility, and that, unfortunately, applies to his policy too. Every legal man to him was a disturbing influence for his power. All I can say, therefore, is that by joining Himmler and Bormann in their course and supporting their aims to every extent, that in this manner any attempt to find a form worthy of the German name was useless. regarding the administration of the Government General? Buehler should state the whole structure of that administration.
Q Witness, did you ever secure art treasures? worst, is that I myself am supposed to have enriched myself from art treasures from the country which was entrusted to me. I had not installed museums and picture collections, and I didn't find time during this war to steal art treasures. I have seen to it that the entire art property of the country which was entrusted to me was officially registered, and that official register is contained in a document which was published quite openly. I have seen to it more than anything that these art treasures, right to the very end, remained in the country. In spite of that, art treasures have been taken away from the Government General. A part was taken away before my administration became active at all. Experiences show that responsibility on the part of an administration can only be talked about after some time of running, namely, when the lowest level of the administration has been installed. So that from the beginning of the war, the 1st of September 1939, until this point, which was about New Year's, 1939 or 1940, there was an uncontrollable measure of removal and uncontrollable extent under which art treasures were removed eitheras booty of war or under some other pretext.
During the registration of art treasures, Adolf Hitler gave the order that the Veit Stoss altar should be removed from St. Mary's Church in Cracow and taken to to the Reich. The Mayor Liebel, from Nurnberg, came to Cracow personally for that purpose with a number of SS men to take away this altar. Another case, the articles were confiscated in Lemberg before my time came and they were etchings by Duerer. In 1944, shortly before the collapse, art treasures were taken to the Reich and in the Castle of Seichau, in Silesia, there was a collection of art treasures which had been put there by Profesor Kneisl. One last collection of art treasures was handed over to the American by me personally.
Q Witness, did you, in the Government General, introduce ghettos? ling districts. I can't remember the date at the moment. The necessities for this, I should like to explain to the prosecutors.
Q Did you introduce the marking of Jewish persons?
Q Did you, in the Government General, introduce forced labor? but it comes quite clear from the wording that I was only thinking of a duty to work in the land, in the country in this connection, so as to repair the damage caused by war and for the purpose of carrying out work which was necessary for the country itself, which is of course the same degree of labor which had to be carried out in the Reich. plunder libraries?
A I can answer that question clearly with "no". The largest and most valuable library which we found, which is the Jakelon (?) University Library in Cracow which fortunately was undestroyed, was transferred to another building by my own personal orders, and in its entire property, including the oldest documents, were looked after there, as necessary. Government General? ved, because of the war. The reopening of universities was prohibited by order of Adolf Hitler.
I have dealt with the needs of the Polish and Ukrainian population by introducing high school courses of instruction for Polish and Ukrainian students which were in fact nothing other than the work done by high school that the departments in the Reich could not criticize this action of mine in any way. The university life was in fact continuing to a degree, restricted by since the requirements for home-trained academic persons, that is, doctors, legel men, teachers and medical men did, of course, exist.
THE PRESIDENT: Would that be a convenient time to break off for ten minutes?
(A recess was taken).
Q Witness, we were last speaking of the universities. Did you yourself as Governor General close the middle schools? was rejecte d by Adolf Hitler. Then we solved the problem by continuing the middle school education on a private basis to a further extent. administered as G eneral Governor was plundered by you. What do you say about that? economic things that have gone on in that country in connection with the G erman Reich. First, I would like to emphasize that the G overnment General was faced with a terrible economic crisis from the beginning.
The country had approximately twelve million inhabitants. The area of the Government General was the least fertile part of the former Polan. Then the border against the Soviet Union as well as the one between the Government General and the Reich had been fixed in such a way that the most essential and for the economic life most important elements were left outside, The borders toward the Soviet Union and the German Reich were closed immediately and thus it came about that at first we had to work from nothing into nothing. the point of view of nutrition went to the Soviet Union, The province of Posen now belonged to the German Reich. Coal and industrial areas of Upper Silesia were within the German Reich. The borders to Germany were fixed in such a way that the iron in Czenstochowa remai ned with the Government General. However, the areas from which, the ores came, ten kilometers from Czenstochowa were incorporated into the German Reich. man Reich. The City of Warsaw with a population of millions became a border city because the German border came as close as fifteen kilometers to that city and the result was that the entire agricultural hinterland of that city was no longer at their disposal and thus a large number of of individual facts could be mentioned but that would lead too far afield.
Therefore, first one had to see that life could continue somehow. only be acquired with the aid of German institutions for mass feeding. The German Reich at that time sent six hundred thousand tons of grain and that created a hard responsibility for me. I received from the Reich as advance. If I had to start an economy which had been destroyed by the war as that was and if I think in the year 1944 on the first of January the savings accounts of the native population amounted to eleven and a half billions of zloti and that we had succeeded until then to improve the nutrition of the population to a certain.
extent and if furthermore, I may point out that during that period as to all reconstructed factories and industrial centers which had taken place and in which the Reich Offices had taken great interest, especially Reich Marshal Goering and Minister Speer have acquired great meric in that connection in aiding the reconstruction of the industry of the country, and that in that industry more than two million fully paid and employed workers were working; that the result of the harvest had come to 1.6 billion tons; that the yearly budget of twenty million zloti in the year 1939 had increased to 1.7 billion zloti; then these are only sketchy points which I may offer to try to describe the general development.
you had under your administration, did you prosecute churches and religion? continuous personal contact. He told me about all his complaints and they were not few. I myself had to intervene for the Bishop of Lublin and to get him out of the hands of Mr. Globotchnik in order to save his life.
Q You mean the Gruppenfuehrer? letter which he sent to me in 1942 and in which he said literally that he thanked me for my tireless efforts to secure church life. the arrest of priests as much as that was humanly possible. The tragic cases of the two assistants of the Archbishop Sabieha who had been shot and which has been mentioned here once by the I prosecution, that has touched me deeply myself. I cannot say anymore. The churches were open, the seminars were educating priests, the priests had possibilities for normal functions. The monestary at Czenstochowa was under my personal protection. The monestary of the Camaldulenziaus near Cracow, an order, was also under my personal protection. There were large posters around the monestary indicating that these monestaries were protected by me personally. concentration camp at Maidanek? foreign reports. But there were for years about that camp in Lublin or near Lublin contradictory reports.
Governor Zoerner reported to me, I believe already in 1941, that the SS had established or intended to establish a large concentration camp near Lublin and had sent large orders for building materials. At that time I charged State Secretary Buehler to investigate that matter immediately and I received the report later in writing also from Reichsfuehrer SS Himmler that he had to establish a large camp in order to take care of the requirements of the Waffen SS for clothes and shoes by manufacturing them in large shops. Thus, that camp was established under the title of "SS Works" or something similar. witnesses who have been heard thus far have said under oath that in the circles of the Fuehrer one did not know anything about all these things. We out there were apparently more independent and I heard quite a lot through enemy broadcasts and enemy and neutral papers or upon continuous questioning as to what was to happen to the Jews who were deported I was always told they were to be sent to the East, to be collected there, and to work there. But, so to say, through the walls one could smell the stench and therefore I always insistently investigated what was going on. on near Belsak. I went to Belsak the next day. Globotschnik showed me a tremendous ditch which he had set up as a protective wall with many thousand workers, apparently Jews. I spoke to some of then, asked them where they came from, how long they were there and he told me, that is Globotschnik: "They work here now and after they are through -- they care from the Reich or somewhere from France, and then they will be sent further to the east." In that area I did not make any further observation. to the entire world, that rumor aid not die. When I mentioned my wish to visit the SS workshops near Lublin in order to get some impressions about the value of the work I was told that I need special permission from Heinrich Himmler.
I requested Heinrich Himmler that for special permission and he stated that he would urge me not to go to that camp. for the third time, that is, during the war, to be received by Adolf Hitler personally. In the presence of Bormann, I put the question to him: "My Fuehrer, rumors about the extermination of the Jews do not cease. One hears them everywhere; one cannot see anything. In Auschwitz I had arrived once surprisingly to see the camp and I was told that there was an epidemic in the camp and, before I over got there, I had to take a detour. I say, My Fuehrer, what is beind all that?" The Fuehrer said, "You can very well imagine that there are executions that take place. Otherwise, I do not know anything. Why don't you speak to Heinrich Himmler about that?" And I said, "Well, Himmler has made a speech in Cracow, as I asked him to, in which he, in front of all the employees whom I had called and assembled, declared that those rumors about the systematic extermination of the Jews was false; the Jews were just brought to the East." Then the Fuehrer said, "Then you have to believe that." foreign press, my first question was to the SS Obergruppenfuehrer Koppe, who had been put in the place of Krueger. "Now we know," I said, "you will not be able to dispute that," And he said that nothing was known to him about these events; apparently that was something between Heinrich Himmler and the people there in the camp, "But", I said, "I have already in 1941 heard about such places and I have also mentioned them; I have spoken about them." So he said, "Well, this is your business." He couldn't worry about it. The Camp of Maidanek was administered by the SS in the sense which I've mentioned before and, apparently, in the same manner as the witness Hoess has mentioned it. That is the only explanation that I can find. Auschwitz, and so on?
A Does Treblinka belong to Maidanek or is that a separate camp?
Q I don't knew; it seems to be a separate camp. Auschwitz is not in the area of the Government General.
Q The Prosecution under No. USA 275 presented the report of the SS Brigadefuehrer about the extermination of the Warsaw Ghetto. Before that took place, did you know anything about that and have you ever seen that report? speech admitted the document here with pictures about the destruction of the Warsaw Ghetto; when he said that that report was sent to me. But that has been clarified in the meantime. The report was never sent to me and I have never seen it in that form. And, thank Heavens, through several witnesses and affidavits most recently, it has been explained that this destruction of the Ghetto in Warsaw took place upon a directive by Himmler and without any interference of Government General. If in our meeting anybody spoke about that Ghetto, they always said that was the revolt in the Ghetto of Warsaw which we had to fight down with artillery; reports which existed, about that never seemed credible to me. Government General? agriculture, to get agricultural machines, to distribute seeds, and the usual forms.
A The Reich helped a great deal in that respect. The Reich sent for many millions of marks, seed experts, livestock machines, etc. welfare of the population of the Government General; but the Prosecution accused you of having made a number of statements, and they found then in your own diary, which seemed to contradict that. How can you explain that contradiction?
A One has to take the diary as a whole. Forty-three volumes cannot be read to easily, and it is impossible to take individual sentences out of their contents.