"Question No. 4: Is it not a fact that in July or August of 1944, an order was issued to commanders and inspectors of the SIPO and SD by Himmler, through Kaltenbrunner as Chief of the SIPO and SD, to the effect that members of all Anglo-American Commando Groups should be burned over to the SIPO by the armed forces; that the SIPO was to interrogate these men and shoot them after questioning; that the killing was to be made known to the armed forces by a communique stating that the commando group had been annihilated in babble; and that this decree was classified Top Secret and was to be destroyed immediately after reading?
"Answer: Yes.
"Question No. 5: With respect to your answer to Question No. 7 of your affidavit of 29 March 1946, is it not a fact that:
"a) After you sent a telegram to Mueller requesting that the Jewish Persecution be stopped you received an order by Himmler that the Jewish actions were to be carried out;
"b) That you then flew to Berlin for the purpose of talking with the Chief of the SIPO and SD, Kaltenbrunner, personally, but that since he was absent you saw his deputy, Mueller, head of Office IV, of the RSHA, who, in your presence, wrote a message to Himmler containing your request that the persecutions of the Jews in Denmark be stopped?
"c) That shortly after your return to Copenhagen you received a direct order by Himmler sent through Kaltenbrunner as Chief of the SIPO and SD, stating that "The Anti-Jewish actions are to be started immediately."
"d) That for the purpose of carrying out this action the "Special Commando Eichmann," which was under the Gestapo, was sent from Berlin to Copenhagen for the purpose of deporting the Jews in two ships which it had chartered.
"Answer: Yes, to each question a, b, c, and d.
"Question No. 6: Is it not a fact that the action of "Special Commando Eichmann" was not a success; that Mueller ordered you to make a report explaining the causes for the lack of success in deporting of Jews; and that you sent this report directly to the Chief of the SIPO and SD, Kaltenbrunner.
"Answer: Yes. That is right.
"I have read the above questions and answers as written and swear are true and correct," etc. Wilhelm Hoettl.
THE PRESIDENT: Did you want to say something?
THE DEFENDANT KALTENBRUNNER: I wanted to say to the High Tribunal that I wish to testify to this immediately.
THE PRESIDENT: Yes, you will have an opportunity in a moment. The purpose of having it read now was that your Counsel might ask you any questions about it, and then you can make any comment that you want to; Colonel Amen will go on and read the other cross examination, and then your own Counsel will continue your examination in chief. Do you understand?
THE DEFENDANT KALTENBRUNNER: Yes, I understand, but I should like to say first it would be easier for me if I might state my view on this document first and then later on treat with the second.
THE PRESIDENT: We can not have the matter interrupted in that way. You will be able to deal with it in a moment. Go on Colonel Amen.
COLONEL AMEN: The affidavit of Dr. Mildner dated 9 April 1946 will become Exhibit 791 US, and the affidavit of Wilhelm Hoettl which I am about to read, dated 10 April 1946, will become exhibit 792-PS "I, the undersigned, Dr; WILHELM HOETTL, make the following affidavit in response to cross-interrogation relating to an affidavit executed by me on 30 March 1946 answering questions put Dr. Kaufmann for presentation to the International Military tribunal.
"1. With respect to question No. 3., please give the following information:
"a. Explain the basis of your statement that when persons belonging to the SD were transferred to Einsatz Kommandos of the SIPO and SD, they resigned from the S D; your attention is invited to the fact that Ohlendorf, the head of the SD, has testified to the contrary.
"b. Explain the basis for your statement that Einsatz Kommandos had nothing to do with executions. Your attention is invited to the fact that your testimony in this regard is likewise in direct conflict with the head of the S D, Ohlendorf.
"c. What was Hitler's so-called Commissar-order and when did you first acquire knowledge of this order?
"With respect to 1 a: In my affidavit I did notspeak of a permanent separation from the SD but of a leave of absen ce for the time of activity with an Einsatzkommando; By that was meant that they did not exercise their SD functions during this time but that this function was inactive.
"With respect to 1 b: My affidavit appears to have been misunderstood concerning this point. I did not state that Einsatzkommandos had nothing to do with executions but only that not all Einsatzkommandos were concerned with executions. I mentioned as an example the Einsatzkommandos in Africa, Hungary, and Slovakia. In connection with that, I said that these Einsatzkommandos had nothing to do with executions; by that I meant not directly with the actual executions (translator's note: i.e. with the actual killing).
"With respect to 1 c: I, myself, do not know the socalled "Commisar Order" of Hitler. Dr. Stahlecker, who commanded an Einsatzgruppe of the SIPO and the SD in Russia, told me in Summer of 1942 that the executions of Commissars and Jews were carried out because of the "Commisar Order" wherein the extermination of the Jews, as the bearers of Bolshevism, was established.
"2. With respect to Question 4, is it not a fact that Heydrich, as Chief of SIPO and SD, gave the initial instructions to Eichmann concerning the extermination of Jews; that in the RSHA Eichmann's immediate superior was Mueller, Chief of the Gestapo that Mueller was first the deputy of Heydrich and later of Kaltenbrunner?
"With respect to 2: Y es, I heard from Eichmann, probably in August 1944, that Heydrich had given him these directives.
"It is also correct that Mueller, Chief of the Gestapo, was Eichmann's immediate superior. As far as I know, Mueller was the deputy of Heydrich and later of Kaltenbrunner only on the sector of the Gestapo, as likewise were the other AMT Chiefs on their sectors.
"3. With respect to Question 5, is it not a fact that you know from your discussions with Kaltenbrunner and with Eichmann that they came from the same community in Austria and were exceptionally close friends; that Eichmann always had direct access to Kaltenbrunner and that they frequently conferred together; that Kaltenbrunner was well pleased with the manner in which Eichmann carried out his duties; that Kaltenbrunner was very interested in the extermination work performed by Eichmann; that you personally know that Kaltenbrunner went to Hungary for the purpose of discussing the extermination program in Hungary with officials of the Hungarian Government and with Eichmann and other members of his staff in Hungary? Please confirm or correct these statements and make any statement necessary to clarify your answer.
"With respect to 3: I heard from Eichmann that he knew Kaltenbrunner from Linz and that they served together in 1932 in an SS Sturm (Company) there. I do not know that they were extraordinary close friends or that Eichmann always had direct access to Kaltenbrunner and that they conferred frequently.
"I do not know the details about their official relationship. I do not know whether Kaltenbrunner also had conferences concerning the program of extermination of Jews in Hungary during his stays in Hungary in Spring of 1944. Winkelmann, the former Higher SS and Police Leader in Hungary, must know exactly about that, since, according to my knowledge, he visited the persons of the Hungarian Government together with Kaltenbrunner.
"4. With respect to Question 6.
"a. Is it not known to you that Mueller, Chief of the Gestapo, always conferred with Kaltenbrunner on matters of importance relating to the functions of his office - particularly with respect to executions of special inmates?
"b. Did you know that Kaltenbrunner was the Higher SS and Police Leader and State Secretary for Security in Austria after the Anschluss until his appointment asChief of the RSHA, a period of five years, and during which time his attention was devoted exclusively to Police and Security matters?
"c. What is the basis of your statement that the intelligence service took up the main part of Kaltenbrunner's attention and all his interest?
"With respect to 4 a: Details concerning the official relationship between Mueller and Kaltenbrunner are not known to me. However, I could note on several occasions that Mueller was with Kaltenbrunner to report about the work of his department.
"With respect to 4 b: Kaltenbrunner was not exclusively occupied with police and security matters during his activity as Higher SS and Police Leader in Austria or as State Secretary for Security respectively. Without a doubt he had political interests besides, since the Higher SS and Police Lechers were the representatives of Reichsfuehrer SS Himmler in all matters.
"With respect to 4 c: I could note that by virtue of my official relationship with him, members of other departments also frequently ex-pressed themselves in the direction that he favored and furthered AMT III, and particularly AMT VI and MIL.
"5. With respect to Question 7, answer the following:
"a. What did you personally have to do with concentration camps and what, therefore, is the basis for your answer to this question?
"b. Did you know that all orders for commitments to, releases from, and executions in concentration camps came from the RSHA?
"c. Did you know that the RSHA gave direct orders to commandants of concentration camps; state any such orders of which you have personal knowledge.
"d. What are the atrocities committed in concentration camps to which you refer in your answer to this question, and when and in what manner did you acquire knowledge that atrocities were committed in concentration camps?
"With respect to 5 a: Personally, I had nothing at all to do with concentration camps. However, I liberated a number of persons from concentration camps, and, therefore, know the difficulties that were made by the concentration camp staffs who always called attention to orders of the WVHA of the SS in such cases since the inmates were needed for the armament industry.
"With respect to 5 b: It is known to me that orders for commitments into concentration camps and discharges there from come from the RSHA. I did not know that all such orders came from the RSHA. I have no knowledge of orders for executions by the RSHA.
"With respect to 5 c: I do not know any details and do not know personally any orders concerning this. In the cases in which I intervened for discharges I addressed myself either to Kaltenbrunner directly or to AMT IV. When the processing was of long duration, I received the answer several times from officials of AMT IV that difficulties had come about through the WVHA of the SS.
"With respect to 5 d: When Hungary was occupied by German troops in March 1944, several of my Hungarian acquaintances went to concentration camps. After I had achieved their liberation, they told me of bad treatment and atrocities in Mauthausen Concentration Camp. At than time, I sent an official communication concerning this to the Director of the Linz Gestapo Office, with the request to enquire into this matter with the concentration camp Commandant Ziehreiss. Ziehreiss, however, denied this as I was informed in the reply. In August 1944, Eichmann told me that there was also extermination camps besides concentration camps.
"6. With respect to Question 9, what is the basis for your opinion that Kaltenbrunner opposed Hitler and Himmler on the program for the physical extermination of European Jewry?
"With respect to 6: Kaltenbrunner told me after his conferences with representatives of the International Red Cross in March 1945 that he was against Hitler's and Himmler's program in the question of the extermination of the European Jews. In my response to question 9 that Kaltenbrunner had given no orders for killing of Jews, the words "According to my knowledge" are missing.
"7. With respect to question 11, who was the American that you told Kaltenbrunner you had contacted in a Neutral Country in 1943? Did Kaltenbrunner agree to travel to Switzerland with you to meet a representative of the Allied Powers with whom you were in touch through the Austrian Resistance Movement and, if so, whom?
"With respect to 7: The American liaison man in 1943 was a member of the USA Legation in Lisbon. I am no longer familiar with his name. The connection to an American organization existed only with the coming of Fall 1944. Kaltenbrunner's acquiescence to travel there was given me about 20 April 1945.
"8. With respect to Question 12, on what date did Kaltenbrunner order the Commandant of Mauthausen Concentration Camp to hand over the camp to approachin troops and at whose insistence did Kaltenbrunner is this order and for what reason?
"With respect to 8: I cannot state the exact date of Kaltenbrunner's order to the Commandant of Mauthausen Concentration Camp to hand over the camp to the approaching troops. It should have been during the last days of April 1945 It is not known to me at whose insistence and for which reason he gave this order; possibly this was connected with his discussions with SS Standartenfuehr Becher whom I met with him at the time.
"Above statements are true; I made this declaration voluntarily and without compulsion, --" etc.
/t/ Dr. Wilhelm Hoettl Apr-11-A-RT-14-1b
DR. KAUFFMANN: Does the High Tribunal wish the defendant to state his position or reply to these two documents.
THE WITNESS: The defendant also requests that right. BY DR. KAUFFMANN:
Q What go you have to say about the document? I would like to point out and refer you to question two which seems vital and relevant to me. It says:
Isn't it true that in the year 1942 and then again 1943 the Commandant at Auschwitz on the order of Mueller showed an annihilation installation to you it would seem therefrom that the Chief of Amt IV knew about these matters."
A Dr. Kauffmann may I interupt you? What I can establish is that this surprise affidavit is being used for the first time against my first affidavit. I am very grateful, even without having had the opportunity to see this affidavit, that I can now reply in full to this statement.
As to Dr. Mildner, he is asked about his position which he held in the Security Service. He enumerated his positions from 1939 to 1944, his service as an Inspector in Kassel, as a deputy in AmtIV. as a deputy Inspector in Vienna in the year 1944 and as a Commander in Vienna in the year 1944. All of these duties fall into my sphere of activity. "All these offices were created by Kaltenbrunner as chief of the Security Police and SD."
That is incorrect. As far as these high offices are concerned the offices which Mildner had, I never appointed anyone to these high positions.
If Mildner were asked he would have to confirm that. He obviously was not asked about that by the Prosecution. In the case of an appointment of a functionary for the Security police and the SD I was asked and I was also notified. As an Inspector of the SD and of the Security Police and in his capacity he also had an intelligence section, he was head of a subdivision of AmtIII and IV which were at my disposal as far as intelligence was concerned and as Chief of the Intelligence was concerned and as Chief of the Intelligence Service I had to know who was heading my subdivision in Vienna, in Kassel and in Copenhagen. From these inspectors my intelligence reports were transmitted and that was the only reason that I knew of the appointments and was notified of such appointments But I did not have any function of appointing these people; that is entirely misleading, and this misinterpretation might arise through this affidavit of Dr. Mildner.
Kemnitz and Kattowitz, in the year 1939 and 1941, he had to transport prisoners to Auschwitz for imprisonment and execution. This refers to a period of time before my assuming office and the purely executive power over those offices, which I was never given to carry out and which offices and functions I never took over. He, therefore, cannot have acted as my deputy. against internees were taking place; in other words, that the SS Stangericht often not and that he was present during executions. "In the year 1942, and again in the year 1943, the Commandant of Auschwitz, on orders of Mueller, showed you extermination installations, and you know of such installations; that Jews were to be sent for executions to this camp."
In my opinion, I could perhaps be incriminated on one point; that is, through the question: "Did Mueller once in the year 1943 see such installations or through his presence participate in shootings." First of all, the prosecution did not show whether this one time took place before I assumed office or whether this one time took place after I assumed office.
Q Will you please be a little briefer?
A Yes, Dr. I have to be able to refute each individual word.
THE PRESIDENT: Dr. Kauffmann, we do not want the witness to argue upon this document. If he has anything to say about the facts, then he can do it, but not an argument upon it.
DR. KAUFFMANN: Yes, that is my opinion, also. BY DR. KAUFFMAN: incriminating point, which seems to be Question 3. Just a minute, I will read it.
"Is it true that all orders for special executions come from the RSHA; and was the regular channel for executions from Himmler, through Kaltenbrunner to Mueller, and then to the concentration camp commandant?"
To that the answer is "yes". Please answer briefly. applied only to the Minister of Justice and to Himmler. In the entire Reich no one also had the possibility or the authority. The official channels were not Himmler, Kaltenbrunnger, Mueller; never did such an order from Himmler come to me; but those orders could only have come from Himmler to Mueller. To put this question to Mueller is for that reason incorrect because Mueller was not with no and cannot know whether I over received such an order from. Himmler. It is just a conclusion which he draws from the entire diagram of authority.
THE PRESIDENT: You are not looking at the words. What he is asked is, "Was the regular channel--?" That is the question. "Was the regular channel for orders from Himmler to you and Mueller?"
of Himmler's was arranged. Then, if he referred to June of 1944, when Heydrich was dead, from that day on in all written orders it was to be published publicly that Himmler was in charge of the entire RSHA end took over all spheres of influence which had been Heydrich's. Then I was made Chief of the RSHA in January. Then all executive powers and competent jurisdiction of the Amt-IV were to remain with Himmler and there was no change in that connection, and Mueller and Nebe were directly under Himmler. For that reason the organizational scheme which applied at the time of Heydrich, did not apply in my time for Ant-IV and V.
Q Now, Question 3-4. There it says, "And did Dr. Kaltenbrunner know about the conditions in the concentration camps?" Of course, we are not told just what is meant by "conditions" there; but it is most likely to be interpreted that these conditions which have been attested to by witnesses are meant. The witness said "yes".
A Dr. Kauffmann, you are overlooking a very important sentence. In the Last one here the Prosecution asks, "Did the WVHA have supervision over all concentration camps in administration for the utilization of labor and maintenance of discipline?" This sentence is tremendously important and for the following reasons: The guilt far the destruction of human life is taken from the WVHA to the sphere and the competence of the RSHA, and, if the High Tribunal-
THE PRESIDENT: Just a minute. This is again a long argumentative speech. The only question which arises, it seems to me, upon this Question 3-A, is, "Did conference take place between Kaltenbrunner, Pohl, and the Commander of the Concentration Camps?" If he says that they did not, then that is an answer that he makes to the affidavit; that is the only question of fact.
DR. KAUFFMANN: Yes, that seems to be the vital point, and that is my opinion, also. BY DR. KAUFFMANN: Did such conferences between Pohl, Mueller, and yourself take place?
A With Pohl and Mueller? No, I never had conferences with them. I had conferences with Pohl semi-annually because he was the Chief, the Wirtschaft und Verwaltungshauptamt of the WVHA. He was in charge. My entire intelligence service had to receive all its reports from Pohl or from the Reich Finance Office.
Q Now, please answer one further question. The administration of concentration camps, the general treatment, food, etc., who was charged with that responsibility? the moment that an internee stepsinside the gate until his release or until his death in the concentration camp or until the end of the war, at which time he was liberated, was exclusively under the jurisdiction of the WVHA.
Q One further question to give a complete picture of it. I am assuming that those things were with this special WVHA and were separate from the RSHA. Is it correct that on the basis of activities of the secret police, its protective custody orders, this interning could take place, is that right? of special protective custody orders. I have already said that. But some of these were contrary to law. In general, this procedure did not go through the RSHA, but from the occupied territories. police?
Q Did they participate or did they collaborate?
Q Now, a further statement. Will you please tell me, in response to Question 5, the action in Denmark?
THE PRESIDENT: Have you dealt with Question 4 yet?
DR. KAUFFMANN: Not yet, Mr. President. I have not dealt with Question 4. BY DR. KAUFFMANN:
Q I go over to Question 4. Isn't it a fact that in July or August, 1944, an order was issued to the commanders by Hitler through Kaltenbrunner as Chief, according to which the members of all Anglo-American Commando Groups should be turned over to the SIPO by the armed forces?
Mr. President, this question I wanted to treat comprehensively at a later time but, if you wish me to, I can deal with it now.
THE PRESIDENT: I do not care how you deal with it. I thought you were taking him through this document.
A I would like to answer the question now, please. The answer to this question is very simple. The Prosecution itself, through a document, put up the contention in a completely different form that the state police had infringed in that it had forged the fact. In that document the Prosecution said that Mueller gave the approval, but here the deponent is told from Himmler through Kaltenbrunner as chief of the Sipo and SD. And that document, as far as I recall--I do not know the number--is signed by Mueller.
Q I will submit that document to you. It is document 1650-PS and USA 246. This document is signed--the heading in Gestapo of Koeln and Aachen. It is dated the 4th of March, 1944. It is top secret. It deals with measures against escaped prisoners--against officers, with the exception of British and American prisoners of war.
THE PRESIDENT: Surely that hasnothing to do with it. This is a document of March and the document that the question refers to is in July or August.
DR. KAUFFMANN: I can't hear.
THE PRESIDENT: The document you have now put forward is a document in March 1944. The question No. 4 relates to a document in July or August 1944.
DR. KAUFFMANN: July or August 1944? I have no document to that effect, your Honor. Perhaps the Defendant can tell us now whether such an order by Himmler existed and whether such an order by Himmler was transmitted through you, yes or no. here. I believe it is a mistake on the part of the Prosecution that the question was put to Mildner as July or August. I believe the Prosecution means the document of the 4th of March, 1944.
Q Then you are saying that this order is not known? of office.
THE PRESIDENT: Dr. Kauffmann, it is perfectly obvious, isn't it, that the document to which you are referring has nothing to do with this question at all, because this document of March concerns measures to be taken against captured escaped prisoners of war who are officers or noncommissioned officers, except British and American prisoners of war.
That is the document.
DR. KAUFFMANN: I do not have that document--one of July or August 1944.
THE PRESIDENT: I don't know whether there is a document of July or August 1944 at all; what I am saying to you is that the document which you put to the witness now, of March 1944, can't be the document referred to in Question No. 4, for it deals with an entirely different subject.
DR. KAUFFMANN: Yes. That is right, your Honor. I believe I can explain this, Mr. President. I assume that the testimony by the witness refers to the commando order of Hitler of October, 1942, and that an effect of this order is meant here. I believe it is that way.
THE PRESIDENT: Colonel Amen, can you tell us whether the Prosecution in putting this question were referring to a document of March 1944, or whether they were referring to a document of July or August 1944?
COLONEL AMEN: We, Your Lordship, were not referring to any document that was brought up by the witness. But since that time we have confirmed from another document--which I think we have here at the table, referring to this same document or a document of that same date. Now, the witness' feeling was that that document had been destroyed after reading. But that there was such an order apparently is borne out by another document which we have here which has not come before the Tribunal in any way at all. In other words, this document was brought up in the first instance by the witness himself.
THE PRESIDENT: But has the document to which Dr. Kauffmann has referred of March 1944 got anything to do with it?
COLONEL AMEN: That is not the document and has nothing whatsoever to do with it.
DR. KAUFFMANN: Then shall I pass on to the next question, your Honor?
THE PRESIDENT: Yes. BY DR. KAUFFMANN:
Q We are concerned with the Jewish persecution in Denmark. Please give your statement to that. morning is correct.
Q Is that your statement?
Denmark. I was never concerned with that matter at all, and
A I never had a report like that come through my hands. I to RSHA.
I could not organizationally give orders to Denmark.
Q Now let us turn to question 6: Is it not a fact that directly to the chief of the Sipo and SD, Kaltenbrunner?
The witness Mildner said yes to that. Is this report from Denmark known to you?
certainty I didn't speak to Himmler--not once but a dozen times.
Every report of Eichmann's was received by Himmler direct, and
Q As far as Hoettl's affidavit is concerned, let us turn given me.
Does the high Tribunal wish for me to put questions on that matter?
from the RSHA is known to me. That such orders originated with the RSHA I did not know.
As far as orders for executions from What can you say to that?
Q Mr. President, the Defendant asked me several minutes ago to be able to give a statement to the document 1063.
He wishes to say now that his signature was actually his own.
It is the document of the RSHA of the 26th of July, 1943.
It is
THE PRESIDENT: Have you got the original there?
DR. KAUFFMANN: I have only a photostatic copy; not the
THE PRESIDENT: Well, what is the question?
Q Are you ready?
A Yes. There is a mistake on your part, Dr. Kauffmann.
I did not dispute my signature. I did say that I had to assume have my signature.
But I do remember, through members of my office further gather from the first few words of the decree--"The Reichsfuehrer SS had decreed, etc."