camp at Mauthausen.
A Is this photostat copy the same? American parachutists who were captured in 1945. whether you have issued this order, whether you were responsible for issuing such an order?
A Yes. We had discussed, you and I, the same document, yesterday, and therefore it is known to me. knowledge until this document was put before me, or until it was put before me by the interrogator here in Nurnberg.
Q Did you know Ziehreiss? an order for an execution, that is to say, to pass sentence of death, and sign it independently. Such an authority was only held, apart from Hitler, by Himmler. presented execution orders which had the signature of Mueller. Will you say something about that?
A If an execution order had Mueller's signature, then he could only have done so on the strength of an order from Himmler, or on the strength of a judgment passed by a proper court. Mueller had authority to issue execution orders, then you would have had to have authority to a much greater degree? power, nor was the organization under Himmler such that I could have had it. After Heydrich's death he retained these powers, and that was not changed when I came into office.
particularly since these are foreign parachutists, that one would, first of all, have to ascertain whether high offices in Berlin, including your RSHA, would have known about this. Did you receive no knowledge of the matter afterwards?
A I want to make a statement on that. The events as such most certainly did not come to my knowledge.
THE PRESIDENT: Have you finished with Document L-51?
DR. KAUFFMANN: No, I am still concerned with the document, but I am about to leave it.
THE PRESIDENT: Well, ought you not to refer him to the particular incident which is referred to towards the end of the document, where it says "Concerning the American military mission which landed behind the German front in the Slovakian or Hungarian area in January 1945"? It goes on, then, to say that the, I think it was, Adjutant of the Camp said "Now Kaltenbrunner has given the permission for the execution. This letter was secret and had the signature, 'signed, Kaltenbrunner'."
DR. KAUFFMANN: This is a short document, and I think he knows every single word of it, but I will put it to him again.
BY DR. KAUFMANN:
It says here:
"I estimate the number of those persons arrested to have been 12 or 15. They were wearing a uniform which was either American or Canadian, brown-green colors, and a red beret. Eight or ten days after their arrival, the order for their execution was received by means of a radio message, or a teleprint. Standartenfuehrer Ziehreiss came to see me and said, 'Now, Kaltenbrunner has approved of the execution. The letter was secret, and had the signature, signed, Kaltenbrunner.'
"These men were then shot and their valuables were given to me by Oberscharfuehrer Niedermeier."
Would you, very briefly, define your attitude? my knowledge, or that it could have taken place with my participation. This is not only a crime against the laws of warfare, this is particularly an action which would produce the most serious foreign political consequences. Mueller, or, even if I consider that I was his superior, that any of us could have acted in such a case. There must definitely have been a previous, detailed conference between Himmler and the Fuehrer. the legal department concerned must have been heard on the subject first, and in connection with such an event there would have have to be either a decision from the Fuehrer or an order from Himmler. However, all that is not known to me. on it, then this can only mean that this was an order which, as I have described before, had my name on it wrongly, since I never had authority to issue an order for an execution. Therefore, the signature should have been Himmler, or, by Himmler's order, Mueller.
Q So that you attribute this signature to a misuse?
A No. I believe that this is not my signature at all, but that it should have said "Himmler". It cannot be assumed that Mueller would have signed his or my name in such a matter.
Q We are now coming to another problem. I am referring now to document 1063-15, USA Exhibit 492, which is a letter from the RSHA, dated June 26, 1943. It has the signature, "Signed, Dr. Kaltenbrunner", and the letter is addressed to all Higher SS and Police Leaders. It refers to the construction of labor education camps.
Will you please look through the letter? The prosecution are accusing you of having established such camps. Please explain what the facts are in this connection, and please state whether that letter originated from you. The fact that my name has been affixed to this document with a typewriter proves to me that this order had not been shown to me before it went out. Otherwise, I would have signed it personally.
afterwards.
Q That is a labor education Comp? Are they identical with a concentration camp? Germans--had not served in the labor corps, had failed to serve in the labor corps, and who, in spite of repeated reminders, didn't do so; all foreign workers who had left their place of work without permission, and had been apprehended; and workers who were caudght during raids on railways stations, and roads, and who were, not in any permanent employment. be hold there for 14 to 56 days. as administration and orders were concerned, came under the state police departments and furthermore, were subordinate to the Commanders of the security police and SD. Did you have knowledge of that? violation of the compulsory labor service of the German citizen. It was a perpetration which could have been dealt with by the law courts just as well, but because of the enormous number of workers employed in the Reich who were not only G ermans, but amounted to 15,000,000 or 20,000,000, of which 8,000,00 foreigners had to be added, it would have been impossible to deal with hundreds of thousands of cases of failure to work or breach of contract, or wrongful leaving of their place of work. and of course, police departments would not have sufficient prison accomodations which would have sufficed to accomodate all those cases and to punish then with short terms. On the strength of these arguments, such a labor education camp was established. camps?
A Yes, principally I approved of them. Although I didn't partake in this particular order her, I had, nevertheless, knowledge of it later and on the strenth of the conditions existing in the Reich I considered it necessary and proper.
for what legth of time they were sent to these camps? What their ration were, how they were employed? poses of detaining people for a period of not exceeding 56 days. I think that that was only possible after the man had previously been sentenced for 3 similar offenses. Transfer to labor education camp....
THE PRESIDENT: Your question was whether you knew the condition in the camps? You are not answering it at all.
DR. KAUFMANN: Will you please immediately answer my question?
THE WITNESS: I think you asked me...
DR. KAUFMANN: I asked you whether you knew anything regarding the rations, treatment, employment of the detainees in these camps? for the public employment of labor. That is, for public utilities, railroad maintenancem and damage due to air attacks, and in order to do that work detainees from labor education camps were used.
They have been seen by the entire population so that the impression which these prisoners made ....
THE PRESIDENT: It still is not answering the question.
DR. KAUFFMANN: I put three exact questions to you. I want three exact answers. Do you know anything about the treatment, the rations, and the employment of these detainees from these camps? Did you have any knowledge of it or not?
A I have referred to their employment. Yes, I had. The other two factors I did not know from my own observations;
Q Did officers of Department IV ever report to you on this? the interior political information service, and I have discussed this problem and the employment of such workers for emergency work.
Q Did you see any cause to interfere? camps and detainees used didn't become known to me. This is a statement, an affidavit from Lindo. Soviet Russian political commissioners and Jewish soldiers were taken out of prisoner-of-war camps and taken away to be shot. For this purpose they were transferred to a concentration camp. Furthermore, he states that the Chief of Department IV, Mueller, had given the execution order for this purpose and signed it. document. What, Defendant, is your statement with reference to this document?
A This order of Himmler's was not known to me and may I point out that during 1941 up to 1943 this order was used, which means, in the main, during the time when I was not in Berlin.
Q I am now reading a very implicating passage. Paragraph 4. Will you please make a statement regarding the question whether this report on these facts referred to the time after 1943 or the time before that, or whatever you may be able to say about that?
Q "In the prisoner of war camps at the Eastern Front, there were former action groups which were commanded by members of the secret state police. These groups were attached to the camp commandant and they had the task of dealing with prisoners-of-war who came under the orders which had been issued, and which were to be executed, as they had been sought out and reported to RSHA."
In Paragraph 2, I am quoting the last paragraph:
"Those prisoners-of-war were formerly, first of all, discharged and then taken to a concentration camp for their execution. Now I am asking you what knowledge did you have of these proceedings?
A I had no knowledge of these facts. And what's more, it is impossible that I could have had knowledge of them. Orders which were issued in 1941 and which, as this witness says, continued to be in force until 1943, it is impossible that I could have had those orders in time to stop them even during the last days. RSHA, there was a department for an organization which was under the secret state police and that this department, beginning in 1941, until the middle of 1943, did exist and that it did issue and carry out such orders? It appears possible to assume that you too must have known something about these written documents and humanly impossible acts prohibited by International Law, and that you were informed of them? responsibility of the witness in that connection.
THE PRESIDENT: We will adjourn now.
(The Tribunal adjourned until 1400 hours) (The Defendant Kaltenbrunner resumed the witness-stand.)
MR. DODD: Dr. Kauffmann has told me that he has an opportunity to read two cross-interrogatories, which we wish to submit -- the cross-interrogatories of Dr. Mildner and Dr. Hoettl. I told Dr. Kauffmann that it might be well, in order not to disquiet the Defendant Kaltenbrunner, if they were read before he completed his examination.
THE PRESIDENT: Do you agree that it would be better that this crossexamination should be read now, so that the Defendant can deal with any points he wishes on it?
DR. KAUFFMANN: Yes, that will be satisfactory.
COLONEL AMEN: The first affidavit, if it please the Tribunal is the affidavit of Dr. Rudolf Mildner:
"I, the undersigned Dr. Rudolf Mildner, made the following affidavit in answer to cross-interrgations by representatives of the Office of United States Chief of Counsel relating to my affidavit of 29 March 1946, made in response to questions by Dr. Kauffmann for presentation to the International Military Tribunal:
"Question No. 1: Confirm or correct the following biographical data:
"Answer: December 1939, I became Chief of the Gestapo Office in Chemnitz.
"In March, 1941, I became Chief of the Gestapo Office in Kattowitz.
"In September, 1943, I became Commander of the SIPO and SD in Copenhagen "In January, 1944, I became Inspector of the SIPO and SD in Kassel.
"On 13 March 1944, I was made deputy chief of Groups IV A and IV B of the RSHA.
"In December, 1944, I became Commander of the SIPO in Vienna.
"In December, 1944, I became Deputy Inspector of the SIPO in Vienna.
"All of these appointments after January, 1943, were made by Kaltenbrunner as Chief of the Security Police and SD.
"Question No. 2: Is it not true that while you were Gestapo leader at Kattowitz you frequently sent prisoners to Auschwitz for imprisonment or execution; that you had contacts with the Political Department (Abteilung) at Auschwitz with regard to inmates sent from the district of Kattowitz; that you visited Auschwitz on several occasions; that the Gestapo 'SS Standgericht' frequently met within Auschwitz and you sometimes attended the trial of prisoners; that in 1942 and again in 1943, pursuant to orders by Gruppenfuehrer Mueller, Chief of Gestapo, the Commandant of Auschwitz showed you the extermination plants; that you were acquainted with the extermination plants at Auschwitz since you had to send Jews from your territory to Auschwitz for execution.
"Answer: Yes, these are true statements of fact.
"Question No. 3: With respect to your answer to Question No. 5 in your affidavit of 29 March 1946, did all orders for arrest, commitment to, punishment and individual executions in concentration camps come from RSHA? Was the regular channel for orders of individual executions from Himmler through Kaltenbrunner to Mueller, then to the concentration camp commandant. Did WVHA have supervision of all concentration carps for administration, utilization of labor, and maintenance of discipline?
"Answer: The answer is yes to each of the three questions.
"Question No. 3-a: Is it true that conferences took place between SS Obergruppenfuehrer Kaltenbrunner and SS Obergruppenfuehrer Pohl, Chief of the WVHA and Chief of Concentration Camps? Was Dr. Kaltenbrunner acquainted with conditions in concentration camps?
"Answer: Yes, and because of those conferences and on the occasion of discussions with the two Amt Chiefs, Gruppenfuehrer Mueller, IV, and Gruppenfuehrer Nebe, RSHA, the Chief of SIPO and SD, SS Obergruppenfuehrer Dr. Kaltenbrunner should be acquainted with conditions in concentration camps.
"I learned from SS Gruppenfuehrer Mueller, Chief of Amt IV, that regular conferences took place between RSHA and Amt Group D of WVHA.
"Question No. 4: Is it not a fact that in July or August of 1944, an order was issued to commanders and inspectors of the SIPO and SD by Himmler, through Kaltenbrunner as Chief of the SIPO and SD, to the effect that members of all Anglo-American Commando Groups should be burned over to the SIPO by the armed forces; that the SIPO was to interrogate these men and shoot them after questioning; that the killing was to be made known to the armed forces by a communique stating that the commando group had been annihilated in babble; and that this decree was classified Top Secret and was to be destroyed immediately after reading?
"Answer: Yes.
"Question No. 5: With respect to your answer to Question No. 7 of your affidavit of 29 March 1946, is it not a fact that:
"a) After you sent a telegram to Mueller requesting that the Jewish Persecution be stopped you received an order by Himmler that the Jewish actions were to be carried out;
"b) That you then flew to Berlin for the purpose of talking with the Chief of the SIPO and SD, Kaltenbrunner, personally, but that since he was absent you saw his deputy, Mueller, head of Office IV, of the RSHA, who, in your presence, wrote a message to Himmler containing your request that the persecutions of the Jews in Denmark be stopped?
"c) That shortly after your return to Copenhagen you received a direct order by Himmler sent through Kaltenbrunner as Chief of the SIPO and SD, stating that "The Anti-Jewish actions are to be started immediately."
"d) That for the purpose of carrying out this action the "Special Commando Eichmann," which was under the Gestapo, was sent from Berlin to Copenhagen for the purpose of deporting the Jews in two ships which it had chartered.
"Answer: Yes, to each question a, b, c, and d.
"Question No. 6: Is it not a fact that the action of "Special Commando Eichmann" was not a success; that Mueller ordered you to make a report explaining the causes for the lack of success in deporting of Jews; and that you sent this report directly to the Chief of the SIPO and SD, Kaltenbrunner.
"Answer: Yes. That is right.
"I have read the above questions and answers as written and swear are true and correct," etc. Wilhelm Hoettl.
THE PRESIDENT: Did you want to say something?
THE DEFENDANT KALTENBRUNNER: I wanted to say to the High Tribunal that I wish to testify to this immediately.
THE PRESIDENT: Yes, you will have an opportunity in a moment. The purpose of having it read now was that your Counsel might ask you any questions about it, and then you can make any comment that you want to; Colonel Amen will go on and read the other cross examination, and then your own Counsel will continue your examination in chief. Do you understand?
THE DEFENDANT KALTENBRUNNER: Yes, I understand, but I should like to say first it would be easier for me if I might state my view on this document first and then later on treat with the second.
THE PRESIDENT: We can not have the matter interrupted in that way. You will be able to deal with it in a moment. Go on Colonel Amen.
COLONEL AMEN: The affidavit of Dr. Mildner dated 9 April 1946 will become Exhibit 791 US, and the affidavit of Wilhelm Hoettl which I am about to read, dated 10 April 1946, will become exhibit 792-PS "I, the undersigned, Dr; WILHELM HOETTL, make the following affidavit in response to cross-interrogation relating to an affidavit executed by me on 30 March 1946 answering questions put Dr. Kaufmann for presentation to the International Military tribunal.
"1. With respect to question No. 3., please give the following information:
"a. Explain the basis of your statement that when persons belonging to the SD were transferred to Einsatz Kommandos of the SIPO and SD, they resigned from the S D; your attention is invited to the fact that Ohlendorf, the head of the SD, has testified to the contrary.
"b. Explain the basis for your statement that Einsatz Kommandos had nothing to do with executions. Your attention is invited to the fact that your testimony in this regard is likewise in direct conflict with the head of the S D, Ohlendorf.
"c. What was Hitler's so-called Commissar-order and when did you first acquire knowledge of this order?
"With respect to 1 a: In my affidavit I did notspeak of a permanent separation from the SD but of a leave of absen ce for the time of activity with an Einsatzkommando; By that was meant that they did not exercise their SD functions during this time but that this function was inactive.
"With respect to 1 b: My affidavit appears to have been misunderstood concerning this point. I did not state that Einsatzkommandos had nothing to do with executions but only that not all Einsatzkommandos were concerned with executions. I mentioned as an example the Einsatzkommandos in Africa, Hungary, and Slovakia. In connection with that, I said that these Einsatzkommandos had nothing to do with executions; by that I meant not directly with the actual executions (translator's note: i.e. with the actual killing).
"With respect to 1 c: I, myself, do not know the socalled "Commisar Order" of Hitler. Dr. Stahlecker, who commanded an Einsatzgruppe of the SIPO and the SD in Russia, told me in Summer of 1942 that the executions of Commissars and Jews were carried out because of the "Commisar Order" wherein the extermination of the Jews, as the bearers of Bolshevism, was established.
"2. With respect to Question 4, is it not a fact that Heydrich, as Chief of SIPO and SD, gave the initial instructions to Eichmann concerning the extermination of Jews; that in the RSHA Eichmann's immediate superior was Mueller, Chief of the Gestapo that Mueller was first the deputy of Heydrich and later of Kaltenbrunner?
"With respect to 2: Y es, I heard from Eichmann, probably in August 1944, that Heydrich had given him these directives.
"It is also correct that Mueller, Chief of the Gestapo, was Eichmann's immediate superior. As far as I know, Mueller was the deputy of Heydrich and later of Kaltenbrunner only on the sector of the Gestapo, as likewise were the other AMT Chiefs on their sectors.
"3. With respect to Question 5, is it not a fact that you know from your discussions with Kaltenbrunner and with Eichmann that they came from the same community in Austria and were exceptionally close friends; that Eichmann always had direct access to Kaltenbrunner and that they frequently conferred together; that Kaltenbrunner was well pleased with the manner in which Eichmann carried out his duties; that Kaltenbrunner was very interested in the extermination work performed by Eichmann; that you personally know that Kaltenbrunner went to Hungary for the purpose of discussing the extermination program in Hungary with officials of the Hungarian Government and with Eichmann and other members of his staff in Hungary? Please confirm or correct these statements and make any statement necessary to clarify your answer.
"With respect to 3: I heard from Eichmann that he knew Kaltenbrunner from Linz and that they served together in 1932 in an SS Sturm (Company) there. I do not know that they were extraordinary close friends or that Eichmann always had direct access to Kaltenbrunner and that they conferred frequently.
"I do not know the details about their official relationship. I do not know whether Kaltenbrunner also had conferences concerning the program of extermination of Jews in Hungary during his stays in Hungary in Spring of 1944. Winkelmann, the former Higher SS and Police Leader in Hungary, must know exactly about that, since, according to my knowledge, he visited the persons of the Hungarian Government together with Kaltenbrunner.
"4. With respect to Question 6.
"a. Is it not known to you that Mueller, Chief of the Gestapo, always conferred with Kaltenbrunner on matters of importance relating to the functions of his office - particularly with respect to executions of special inmates?
"b. Did you know that Kaltenbrunner was the Higher SS and Police Leader and State Secretary for Security in Austria after the Anschluss until his appointment asChief of the RSHA, a period of five years, and during which time his attention was devoted exclusively to Police and Security matters?
"c. What is the basis of your statement that the intelligence service took up the main part of Kaltenbrunner's attention and all his interest?
"With respect to 4 a: Details concerning the official relationship between Mueller and Kaltenbrunner are not known to me. However, I could note on several occasions that Mueller was with Kaltenbrunner to report about the work of his department.
"With respect to 4 b: Kaltenbrunner was not exclusively occupied with police and security matters during his activity as Higher SS and Police Leader in Austria or as State Secretary for Security respectively. Without a doubt he had political interests besides, since the Higher SS and Police Lechers were the representatives of Reichsfuehrer SS Himmler in all matters.
"With respect to 4 c: I could note that by virtue of my official relationship with him, members of other departments also frequently ex-pressed themselves in the direction that he favored and furthered AMT III, and particularly AMT VI and MIL.
"5. With respect to Question 7, answer the following:
"a. What did you personally have to do with concentration camps and what, therefore, is the basis for your answer to this question?
"b. Did you know that all orders for commitments to, releases from, and executions in concentration camps came from the RSHA?
"c. Did you know that the RSHA gave direct orders to commandants of concentration camps; state any such orders of which you have personal knowledge.
"d. What are the atrocities committed in concentration camps to which you refer in your answer to this question, and when and in what manner did you acquire knowledge that atrocities were committed in concentration camps?
"With respect to 5 a: Personally, I had nothing at all to do with concentration camps. However, I liberated a number of persons from concentration camps, and, therefore, know the difficulties that were made by the concentration camp staffs who always called attention to orders of the WVHA of the SS in such cases since the inmates were needed for the armament industry.
"With respect to 5 b: It is known to me that orders for commitments into concentration camps and discharges there from come from the RSHA. I did not know that all such orders came from the RSHA. I have no knowledge of orders for executions by the RSHA.
"With respect to 5 c: I do not know any details and do not know personally any orders concerning this. In the cases in which I intervened for discharges I addressed myself either to Kaltenbrunner directly or to AMT IV. When the processing was of long duration, I received the answer several times from officials of AMT IV that difficulties had come about through the WVHA of the SS.
"With respect to 5 d: When Hungary was occupied by German troops in March 1944, several of my Hungarian acquaintances went to concentration camps. After I had achieved their liberation, they told me of bad treatment and atrocities in Mauthausen Concentration Camp. At than time, I sent an official communication concerning this to the Director of the Linz Gestapo Office, with the request to enquire into this matter with the concentration camp Commandant Ziehreiss. Ziehreiss, however, denied this as I was informed in the reply. In August 1944, Eichmann told me that there was also extermination camps besides concentration camps.
"6. With respect to Question 9, what is the basis for your opinion that Kaltenbrunner opposed Hitler and Himmler on the program for the physical extermination of European Jewry?
"With respect to 6: Kaltenbrunner told me after his conferences with representatives of the International Red Cross in March 1945 that he was against Hitler's and Himmler's program in the question of the extermination of the European Jews. In my response to question 9 that Kaltenbrunner had given no orders for killing of Jews, the words "According to my knowledge" are missing.
"7. With respect to question 11, who was the American that you told Kaltenbrunner you had contacted in a Neutral Country in 1943? Did Kaltenbrunner agree to travel to Switzerland with you to meet a representative of the Allied Powers with whom you were in touch through the Austrian Resistance Movement and, if so, whom?
"With respect to 7: The American liaison man in 1943 was a member of the USA Legation in Lisbon. I am no longer familiar with his name. The connection to an American organization existed only with the coming of Fall 1944. Kaltenbrunner's acquiescence to travel there was given me about 20 April 1945.
"8. With respect to Question 12, on what date did Kaltenbrunner order the Commandant of Mauthausen Concentration Camp to hand over the camp to approachin troops and at whose insistence did Kaltenbrunner is this order and for what reason?
"With respect to 8: I cannot state the exact date of Kaltenbrunner's order to the Commandant of Mauthausen Concentration Camp to hand over the camp to the approaching troops. It should have been during the last days of April 1945 It is not known to me at whose insistence and for which reason he gave this order; possibly this was connected with his discussions with SS Standartenfuehr Becher whom I met with him at the time.
"Above statements are true; I made this declaration voluntarily and without compulsion, --" etc.
/t/ Dr. Wilhelm Hoettl Apr-11-A-RT-14-1b
DR. KAUFFMANN: Does the High Tribunal wish the defendant to state his position or reply to these two documents.
THE WITNESS: The defendant also requests that right. BY DR. KAUFFMANN:
Q What go you have to say about the document? I would like to point out and refer you to question two which seems vital and relevant to me. It says:
Isn't it true that in the year 1942 and then again 1943 the Commandant at Auschwitz on the order of Mueller showed an annihilation installation to you it would seem therefrom that the Chief of Amt IV knew about these matters."
A Dr. Kauffmann may I interupt you? What I can establish is that this surprise affidavit is being used for the first time against my first affidavit. I am very grateful, even without having had the opportunity to see this affidavit, that I can now reply in full to this statement.
As to Dr. Mildner, he is asked about his position which he held in the Security Service. He enumerated his positions from 1939 to 1944, his service as an Inspector in Kassel, as a deputy in AmtIV. as a deputy Inspector in Vienna in the year 1944 and as a Commander in Vienna in the year 1944. All of these duties fall into my sphere of activity. "All these offices were created by Kaltenbrunner as chief of the Security Police and SD."
That is incorrect. As far as these high offices are concerned the offices which Mildner had, I never appointed anyone to these high positions.
If Mildner were asked he would have to confirm that. He obviously was not asked about that by the Prosecution. In the case of an appointment of a functionary for the Security police and the SD I was asked and I was also notified. As an Inspector of the SD and of the Security Police and in his capacity he also had an intelligence section, he was head of a subdivision of AmtIII and IV which were at my disposal as far as intelligence was concerned and as Chief of the Intelligence was concerned and as Chief of the Intelligence Service I had to know who was heading my subdivision in Vienna, in Kassel and in Copenhagen. From these inspectors my intelligence reports were transmitted and that was the only reason that I knew of the appointments and was notified of such appointments But I did not have any function of appointing these people; that is entirely misleading, and this misinterpretation might arise through this affidavit of Dr. Mildner.