Q Did the various functionaries of the Einsatzgruppc SD, have to report to the Supreme Commanders of the armies upon what they did on orders of Himmler?
Ohlendorf, and I am not informed about the connection which existed between the commanders and the Einsatzgruppe commando units. I did not take part in them, and I had no hand in them.
Q That is not what I wants to hear from you, Field Marshal. I wanted to know whether the agents or the Einsatzgruppe of the SD, according to your knowledge of regulation, were obliged to report to the army commanders in the rear of whose areas they had to work?
A I do not believe so, but I do not know the orders concerned. I have not seen them. knew about the intention of Hitler or Himmler to exterminate the Jews? ally was not informed. war complex. It became known during the war that there were regrettable circumstances concerning the supplying of Soviet Russian prisoners of war during the beginning of the East campaign. What was the reason for these conditions in the beginning? has reported during the briefing conferences. As I recall, he has repeatedly reported that it was a problem of large masses, that extraordinary efforts of organization were required in order to supply and house and guard them. period of time. I am thinking of a particular reason which may have existed, and in order to refresh your memory, I would like to mention the following: prisoners of war, because it was thought in the beginning that these prisoners would be transferred to the homeland. In spite of thes preparat ions, however, I have been told, there came a sudden decree by Hitler who prohibited the transfer of these Soviet Russian prisoners into the homeland.
a certain time, until September, all transportation of Soviet Russian prisoners of war into the homeland, the Reich area, was not permitted and only after that there was a possibility to transfer them into the home camps, for reasons of manpower. with the means at the disposal of the troops?
AApparently not. I am not informed about that because only the Supreme Commander of that army could know it. That was their responsibility. Deputy Chief of the armed forces leadership staff, the Wehrmacht Fuehrung Stab. When was that position created?
Q In 1942? What was the rank connected with that position?
Q I mean, was it like a position of a division commander? a department head.
Q How many chiefs of department were there in the OKW?
A I could not say from memory. I would not like to give you a wrong figure.
Q What do you estimate?
A Eight chiefs, each one two, three, four departments. About 30 to 35 chiefs of department there may have been there. 30 heads of deparments?
A No, I would not like to say that. We had subordinate to these offices department chiefs. We had apartment group chiefs. That is, they were over several sections.
Q What were the official tasks connected with that position?
Wehrmacht Fuehrung Stab witht the Fuehrer headquarters, to supervise that work according to the directives of the Chief of the armed forces Leadership Staff, Jodl.
That was the task. in a particular measure responsible for strategic planning, as is asserted by the Prosecution?
A Responsible? He was, of course, not according to his position, but as a matter of fact, he belonged to a small group of qualified general staff officers which were concerned with those things, as Haldar has pointed out.
Q Now, I have one last question. That is the position of the Deputy Chief of the Armed Forces Leadership Staff was therefore not as significant as the other positions which are included in that group of the general staff and OKW? Leadership Staff and assistant in the group, in the small group of those who had to deal with strategic questions, but subordinate to General Jodl and the departmrny chief in the staff. it was not answered. I have asked you whether the significance, the importance of that position was the same as that of the others which are mentioned in that group of the general staff of the OKW. OKW, there were the supreme commanders and the chiefs of the general staff, He did not belong to these.
BY DR. BABEL (Counsel for the SS): beginning of the war became the front line fighters for a policy of power and conquest. In order to exclude an y misunderstandings, I should like to clarify the following:
What did you mean by SS? of a much longer affidavit. If you read that, you would find the answer to your question In a more precise form in which I shall state it, I dealt with the Reichsfuehrung SS under Himmler and underthose functions within his competence. police SS, which in the occupied territories appeared and were active. The conceptof the so-called general SS had nothing to do with that. I hopethat clears it. BY DR. BERGOLD (Counsel for Bormann): Bormann in connection with his activity in the so-called Volkssturm. In that connection, I would like to put a few questions. 1944, have an offensive purpose of a defensive purpose? ation, any cooperation and coordination of the Volkssturm and the military office Volkssturm? bit of manpower to defend their own homesteads. in it? Volkssturm in their areas either incorporated them or sent them home. ion, the Volkssturm, was a brainchild of Bormann or did that come from Hitler?
A I do not know that. Maybe from both.
Q Hitler did not tell you about it either? officials had nothing to do with it. peculiar thing of the Volkssturm?
that what I have heard and assum that it originated from Bormann. I do not know it for sure. BY DR. HORN: (Counsel for defendant Ribbentrop): Moscow in August 1939, on account of the changed foreign political situation-the guarantee pact between England and Poland had been ratified--advised the Fuehrer to start certain military measures? were based upon a conversation between him and his foreign Minister. I was not present at that conversation. the most part never informed about the strategic plans? the Chief of the Armed Forces Leadership Staff, that we werenot authorized to do it, and we never did it.
If the Reich Foreign Minister was at any time informed about such questions, that information couldhave come onlyfrom Hitler and I doubt if he made an exception there.
Q. The Prosecution has submitted a letter of 3 April 1939 concerning an impending occupa tion of Denmark and Norway which you sent to the then Reich Foreign Minister. In that letter you informed the Reich Foreign Minister of the impending occupation and requested him to take the necessary foreignpolitical stops.before that date. Did you instruct von Ribbentrop about the intended occupation of Norway and Denmark?
A. No, I could not possibly have done that. According to the way in which the Fuehrer worked with us, that letter was a somewhat unusual way to inform the Reich Foreign Minister upon orders by Hitler. Otherwise he would not have known about it, and I was charged to write it.
Q. In connection with the testimony by General Lahousen, I want to ask you one question. Atthe time of the Polish campaign, was there a directive or an order by Hitler to exterminate the Jews in the Polish Ukraine?
A. I can not recall any such thing. I only know that even during the occupation of Poland, after the initial occupation, the problem of the Polish Jews played an important role, and in that connection I once put a question to Hitler, which I believe he answered by saying that that area was well designed to settle the Jews there. Other things I do not remember or do not recollect.
a revolt in the Polish Ukraine in the back of the Poles? said here by Lahousen.
DR. HORN: I thank you BY DR. BOEHM (Counsel for the SA): that is a prisoner of war system. Did you ever issue orders or have orders issued on the basis of which members of the SA or units of the SA were used to guard prisoners of war or prisoner of war camps, or should have been used that purpose? high command of the armed forces. I believe that certainly was not the case. ing of prisoners of war by SA over took place ? of the army in some particular places may have used SA men for the guarding. I don't know.
DR. BOEHM: Thank you.
THE PRESIDENT: perhaps we better adjourn now for ten minutes.
(A recess was taken)
THE PRESIDENT: The Tribunal will sit in open session tomorrow morning at 10 o'clock. At 1230 it will take supplementary applications for witnesses and documents, and that at a quarter to one it will adjourn into a closed session. BY GENERAL RUDENKO: receive your first officer's commission?
Q What was the degree and extent of your military education? vanced through the various ranks to second lieutenant.
regimental adjutant. Then during the first World War, battery commander, and then after the spring of 1915, in the general staff.
Q Evidently, the translation was not correct. You finished the military academy or had you taken your military training in some other place; just what is it?
A I was never to a military academy. Twice I participated in so called general staff travels as regiment adjutant and in the summer of 1915, I was ordered to go to the general staff and returned to my regiment later.
Q Just what military training and military rank did Hitler possess? end of the first World War, he was a lieutenant in a Bavarian Infantry Regiment, Throughout the war, the first World War, he served as a soldier and possibly as a non-commissioned officer toward the end. training and experience in military matters, had a opportunity to influence Hitler considerably in his decisions of strategic and other military matters as well as all matters concerning the armed forces ? and for the professional officer, for reasons which are hard to understand, Hitler had studied tactics and strategy and he had a knowledge in military fields which was something surprising. May I give an example for that. The other other officers of the armed forces will confirm it, that concerning organization, armament, leadership, equipment, of all armies, and what is more remarkable, of all navies of the globe, he was so well-informed that it was impossible to prove any error on his part, and I have to add that also during the war, while I was at his headquarters and in his close proximity, that during the night Hitler studied all the big general staff books by Moltke, Schliefen and von Klausewitz and from there had a tremendous knowledge and therefore we had the impression that only a genius can do that.
training and experience you were Hitler's adviser in a number of important military matters? from him and about him; but yesterday when I was asked by my counsel I already pointed out that even in the simpler questions, every-day questions, concerning organization and equipment of the armed forces I have to admit openly I was the onewho was advised and not the adviser.
Q Since when did you begin to cooperate with Hitler militarily? of February 1938. the period when preparations for aggressive wars were made, is that not so?
A Yes. I have given all the necessary explanations as to how I entered the situation in the beginning of February and how things have developed and how surprisingly new situations arose. had the title of the Minister of the Reich? chief of the branches of the armed forces, and the supreme commander of the air force, Reichsmarshal Goering, was also Reichsminister of Aviation; and also I received only the rank but not the competence and not the position of the minister. decrees together with Hitler and the other Reich ministers? of the signatures of the Fuehrer and Reichschancellor and the ministers, and then finally the chief of the Reichschancellory. In the military field that did not exist, but according to the traditions of the army and the armed forces the main personalities concerned signed--that is, the Chief of Staff or whoever had written the order with an initial on the margin. together with other Reichsministers.
reasons why I signed than, and that in doing so I was not a Reichsminister and did not have the function of a minister inoffice. function of the Minister of War? What was the government agency that fulfilled the function of the government of Minister of War? Reichsminister von Blomberg. Beginning with the 4th of February there was neither a war minister or a war ministry. on the function of the ministry of war, since there was no ministry of was following the period you mentioned. War Ministry continued the work such as I have described yesterday. That is, all rights and autonomies and competences were transferred to the commanders of the branches. It wasn't upon an order of myself but upon an order from Hitler. unifying supreme command was directly controlled and supervised by Hitler. Would that be a correct conclusion? nature? Specifically, I mean the plans for the attack on Austria, Czechoslovakia, Poland, Belgium, Holland, France, Norway, Jugoslavia and the Soviet Union? the operational and strategic planning, after an order had been given by Hitler, were worked out by the commanders of the branches; that is to say, for the army by the High Command of the army and the General Staff of the army. They were reported to Hitler and then further decisions were made,
Q I would like to ask you with regard to Jugoslavia the following: Do you admit that a decree, or rather, a directive issued under your signature about the partition of Jugoslavia represents in itself a document of both political and international significance, since it practically decides on abolishing Jugoslavia as a sovereign state?
by the Fuehrer and to forward it to those offices which were concerned. Personal or political influence in these questions I didn't have.
Q Under your own signature? yesterday, how they came about and what their significance was.
Q Yes, correct, you did talk about it yesterday. Right now I would like to determine more precisely your views with regard to Jugoslavia. Would you agree that the OK, participated directly in the organization of provocative acts and incidents so that German aggression could be facilitated and justified in the public opinion of the world? another defendant, stated very clearly that I participated in no preparations of any incident, and that military offices also, according to the desire of Hitler, had nothing to do with the preparation, deliberation, or the execution of such incidents at any time--incidents here in the sense of provocation.
Q Correct. That part did the OKW take in insuring the occupation of the Sudetenland?
A General, which Free Corps do you refer to? Sudetenland. department had sent armies there or sent them there secretly. I don't know it. At any rate, an order in that direction has not been given, or at lease has not passed through my hands. I cannot remember anything. Bohemia by the German military units on the 14th of March 1939, in the afternoon, at the time when President Hacha was still on route to Berlin for purpose of negotiations with Hitler?
A The order was decided, in the end, by the Fuehrer. There had been preparations to occupy that area where the well-known steel works were, near Maehrisch, Ostrau, before the march into Czechoslovakia. As a justification for that decision, Hitler had told me that would be done in order to keep the Poles from the North from grabbing it, and thereby getting the most modern rolling mill in the world. He stated that as a reason for the incident; and that occupation Actually took place in the late hours of the 14th of March. was en route to Berlin to negotiate with Hitler?
Q This is treachery, is it not?
A I don't believe that I am supposed to judge the facts. It is correct that the occupation occurred on that evening. I have given the reasons, and President Hacha found out about it only after he had arrived in Berlin.
Now I remember the name. The rolling mill was Witkovitz. Soviet Union.
Yesterday you testified to several things on the subject. You related your position, or your viewpoint, with regard to the attack on the Soviet Union. You announced to the Tribunal that the order for preparing Plan Barbarossa took place at the beginning of December 1940.
Q Do you recollect that quite thoroughly and quite precisely? Command of the Armed Forces which would have ordered the execution of this plan called Barbarossa on the basis of a previous order. I explained yesterday, however, that already in September a decree had been issued concerning transport and railroad conditions. I cannot recall whether I signed that decree, but I mentioned yesterday such a preparatory decree to improve transport conditions from the West to the East.
Q In September, you mean?
with certainty. More accurate information may be obtained later on from General Jodl, probably, who would remember that better. him also.
I wish that you would recollect briefly the following: You first learned of Hitler's plans to attack the Soviet Union in the summer of 1940. Is that correct?
A No. In the summer of 1940 -- I believe what you are referring tois the conversation which is mentioned in the diary of Jodl. Do you mean the conversation referred to in the diary of Jodl? This was apparently a briefing conference, and I did'not participate in it. My thoughts during that time justify my belief that I was not present, because I was on the way almost every day, by airplane, and therefore could not be present at briefing conferences.
Q When did your conversation with Ribbentrop take place? beginning of September, but I could not state the exact date any more. I would reconstruct the date by the fact that only on the 10th of August I returned to Berchtesgaden, and after that date I wrote the memorandum which I mentioned yesterday.
Q And so you assert that you first heard about Hitler's plans to attack the Soviet Union from conversations with Ribbentrop?
A No, no. After having been absent from Berchtesgaden for about two weeks -- partly on leave and partly on duty in Berlin -- I returned to headquarters at Berchtesgaden, and only then, on one of the subsequent days, probably during the middle of August, for the first time, I heard about thoughts of Hitler of that kind. That was the basis for my memorandum.
Q In that case, I put my question correctly. That is, in the simmer of 1940 you already learned of Hitler's plan to attack the Soviet Union?
A Yes. The middle of August, after all, is still summer.
Q Yes, I quite agree; August is summer.
Paulus, which he gave here to the Tribunal on the 11th of February of this year. Paulus, as you might recollect, informed the Tribunal that when he entered the service of the OKH, on the 3rd of September, 1940, among other plans he also saw there the preliminary operational draft of the plan for attacking the Soviet Union, known under the code name of Barbarossa. You do remember that part of Paulus' testimony, do you not? of a maneuver for training purposes, and he had found the material for that at the occasion of his transfer into the General Staff. The sketch itself in not known to me, and it could not be known to me because the materials and files and the various studies of the General Staff of the Army were never at my disposal, and I never had an opportunity to look at them.
Q What I want to establish is this. You do not deny that in September, 1940, in the OKH, there were plans made and work done on the preliminary draft of the Plan Barbarossa? that it is not true because I could not say whether it is actually true. That is, I can neither deny it nor affirm it. the war with the Soviet Union. his intentions with regard to the Soviet Union. and not conduct any war against the Soviet Union. That was the content of my memorandum. which took place three weeks after Germany attacked the Soviet Union, on the 16th of July, 1941. Do you remember that conference? It was dedicated to the problem of war against the Soviet Union.
A No, at the moment I don't know.
minute. You may remember that I submitted it to the defendant Goering. The document dealt with the participation of the Soviet Union, that is, of annexing some of its territories. Do you recollect now?
A That is a document which I knew. I believe it is marked on top "BO-FU." During my interrogation I characterized it as a memorandum from Reichsleiter Bormann; I made that statement. At that time I also testified that only during the second part of that conversation was I present, and that I had not been present during the first part of the conference. I have also testified that it was not the record of the minutes, but a free summary made by Reichsleiter Bormann, which was dictated. the question was posed about annexing the Grimea, the Baltic State, the Volga Region, the Ukraine, Byelerussia, and other territories; that is, annexing those to Germany? As I remember the conference, I only recall the part where questions of personnel were discussed and, in particular, about certain persons who were to be appointed for certain jobs. That I remember, but the document I have only seen here, I didn't know if it before, and I did not attend the first half of the conference.
Q In that case may I put the question differently: What were the final objectives pursued by Hitler and his entourage in conducting their war against the Soviet Union? to me, saw the more profound reasons for this war in the fact that he was convinced that in thecourse of the years to come, between the Slavic Empire of Communism and the German Reich of National Socialism, it would have to come to a war one way or another. The reasons which were given to me were the following: If I once believe and I am convinced that such a dispute or conflict between the two nations will have to occur, then rather now than later. This is about the way in which I could formulate it. of several areas, I do not remember. I cannot recollect. Maybe they were pictures of the imagination.
Q And you tell the Tribunal on oath that you did not know of Hitler's plans to seize the territories of the Soviet Union and to colonize these?
A No. That has not been expressed in that form. It is true that it came to my knowledge that the Baltic provinces should come into a sort of dependence of the Reich, and that the Ukraine should come into a closer connection from the point of view of economy and nutrition, but concrete objects of conquest are not known to me and if they were ever mentioned I never considered them seriously. That is the way I thought about it at that time. I cannot explain how I see it today, but I have to say frankly how I saw it at that time. announced the necessity to rub the City of Leningrad off the face of the earth?
A I have read that document here again. If it is contained in the document I cannot remember it now. But I have had this document before me here; I have read it in the presence of the American prosecutor; and if it is said in there then it is only the question of whether I have heard it or whether I have not heard it. That depends entirely on the time at which I entered into that conference.
it was submitted several times already. The extracts already cited to the Defendant Goering stated: The Leningrad region is wanted by the Finns. The Fuehrer wants to erase Leningrad altogether and then give it to the Finns. attended that conference. Whatever had been said before I could not hear, and that I can only indicate if I am given the document or if one reads the record of my interrogation. I told the judge at that time.
Q Very well. I shall give you the minutes of the conference immediately. We shall find the place. While we are looking for the place I will ask you one other question on the same subjct: documents available? general who is present here, and he has called my attention to a document.
Q I know; that is correct. know a second document which at that time contained a short directive -I believe on the order of Jodl -- concerning Leningrad. I have been interrogated on both documents;: but, on the other hand, I have to point out that neither as a result of a siege, artillery, or by the air force has a wanton destruction taken place in the sense as we know it from other places to a much greater extent. It never came to a systematic shelling of Leningrad, as much as I know. Consequently, one can only state what I have said at that time under oath to the gentleman of the Soviet delegation. shelled? of a destructive shelling it never came to that. That would have occurred, General, if it would have come to an attack on Leningrad. other questions on the subject.
A It is very simple. After these remarks had been made I entered into a conference room. I have told the interrogator that I heard the last sentence, which was about the appointment of Gauleiter Lohse, when I entered the room. Everything that had been said before I did not hear.
Q If you please. Have you found the place of the minutes of the meeting -- the paragraph that deals with Leningrad? You do see that there is that entry in the minutes of the meeting about Hitler's remark. You arrived at the conference immediately after they had finished talking about Leningrad?
A Yes. I entered the room when they were talking about the qualifications of Gauleiter Lohse--whether he could be used as an administrative official. That was the first thing that I heard. A debate was going on just as I entered.
Q It states there quite clearly: Rub the city of Leningrad off the face of the earth.
Q The same is stated in the decree, is it not?
A Yes; but that is not a causal connection for me. That was a decree of the navy. Is that what you meant? The order which was found with the navy--the Kriegsmarine? command and the other by the OKW. You do know that, don't you?
A Yes, I have seen both these decrees here. They were submitted by the Russian delegation.
Q And you do know of a decree signed by Jodl of the OKW? It also talks about erasing the city of Moscow--rubbing that off theface of the earth.
A That I do not remember now anymore. If mention was made of Leningrad at that time, if it is stated there I mil not deny it.
Q I am asking you. What is the purpose of the decrees? Did OKW issue decrees for the purpose of having them obeyed? not known to me. The shorter order, signed Jodl of the OKW, was not issued in my presence, because if I would have been present I would have signed it.
Certainly I was absent. Therefore, I do not know the prerequisites or the discussions which preceded that decree.
Q You have not replied to my question. I am asking you: Are the decrees issued so that they could be obeyed, or otherwise? be given from the local command office of the army. It was just a directive. into action? And about your statement that no one shelled Leningrad, we don't really need that statement, since the destruction of Leningrad is well known to the world.
Proceeding further: Do you know -That is why I don't know.
Union defendant Goering issued a so-called "Green Folder" which countained directives on economic questions in the territories which were to be occupied in t the Soviet Union by the German Army? directives to all the German armed forces to obey these economic directives without question? Army which organization was established and for what purposes, and that accordingly all the military commands of the army had to coordinate with them. That I have not ordered, but I have just transferred it.
Q Was it your own decree of where you merely obeying your directions? I could not give any orders to Reich Marshal Goering in that respect. the armed forces?
A I could not give him an order; I could only pass on the intention of the Fuehrer to the commander of a branch and he could pass it on to his subordinate commanders.
Q You did not disagree with the Fuehrer's desires on the subject, though though, did you ? tency of the OKW, I could not voice. I did not have to; I just passed it on.
Q You do affirm that this order of yours had this objective: the immediate and full economic exploitation of the occupied regions of the Soviet Union in the interest of German war economy? organization such as the economic organization Oldenburg I have not given because this was not my problem. I only passed on the contents of the "Green Folder" to the high command of the army in order for them to act on it.
Q You do admit that the directives contained in the "Green Folder" were aimed at the plunder of the material wealth of the Soviet Union and all its citizens.?