cussion took place? or December. I have the precise date in my personal notes; also, with Canaris' knowledge.
Q To the best of your knowledge and recollection, who was present? which took place at the camp, the three chiefs of sections and the Chief of the Ausland Section, Admiral or Captain Buerckner.
Q What were you told at this meeting by Canaris? put under pressure by Keitel to execute an action that would lead to the elimination of the French Marshall Weygand. I--that is to ssy, my section, was charged with the execution of this task.
Q When you say "elimination", what do you mean?
Q What was Weygand doing at this time?
Q What was the reason given for attempting to kill Weygand? French army in North Africa might find in Weygand a point of crystalization. That, of course, is only the main outline of what I still remember today. It may be that there are other reasons that contributed. this meeting? of the armed forces was heard with abomination by all those present and repudiated. I, myself, as the person in question, stated that I should not permit that my department should be commissioned with this task. I reacted quite naturally and said that it did not even occur to me to carry out this order, that my section and my officers are fighters but they are not a murderers' organization or murderers.
Q What then did Canaris say?
A Canaris said roughly, "Calm down. We'll talk it over later."
Q Did you then talk it over later with Canaris? Canaris. Canaris told me immediately, "It is a matter of course that this order will not only not be carried out; it will not even be communicated further," and that is also what happened. out this order? was present, I was spoken to by the Chief of the OKW, at that time Keitel, on this subject. He asked me what had happened or what had been undertaken so far as this matter was concerned. The date of this event is recorded in my notes, with Canaris' knowledge and with his commission.
Q What reply did you make to Keitel? thing is certain; I certainly did not answer that I had no intention of carrying out this order. I didn't do it and could not do it; otherwise, I should not be sitting here today. Probably, as in many similar cases, I gave the answer that it was very difficult but whatever was possible would be done, or something of that sort. Naturally, I can not recall my precise words.
Canaris group who is still alive today? Possibly Pepenkof is still alive; perhaps, Benteveni, who, however, did not belong to the inner circle. Most of the others fell as a result of the events of July 20.
COLONEL AMEN: I have another subject to take up now. I don't know if you want me to start in before recess.
THE PRESIDENT: We will continue until 12:45.
(Further examination of the witness by Colonel Amen.) General Reinecke was present?
Q Who was General Reinecke? General Army Office; that is to say, a member of the OKW.
Q Do you recall the approximate date of that meeting ? soon after the beginning of the Russian campaign. Perhaps July. you state exactly who was present at that conference? notes taken for Canaris, in which I participated as his representative, the following were present: General Reinecke as the presiding officer, Obergruppenfuehrer Mueller of the SD, Colonel Breuer representing the office in charge of prisoners of war, and I as a representative of Canaris.
at this meeting? Reichsecurity and took part in the session because he was responsible for the execution of the measures regarding the treatment of the Russian prisoners. why he was there? war. I do not know in which precise department. He took care of questions rewarding prisoners of war.
Q What was the purpose of this conference? the command that had been given regarding the treatment of prisoners of war and also to give some foundation to these commands. conference what the substance of those orders under discussion was? of measures that were to be taken. First of all was the killing of Russian commissars. Second was the killing of all those elements among the Russian prisoners of war who, according to a special treatment, could be identified as Bolshevists or as active representatives of the Bolshevistic attitude toward life. basis for these orders? General Reinecke in its essential features as this: That the war between Germany and Russia was not a war between two states or two armies but between two attitudes toward the world, namely, the National Socialist and the Bolshevistic.
The Red Army soldier was not to be looked upon as a soldier in the ordinary sense of the word such as our western opponents but as an ideological enemy. That is, as an enemy-to-the-death of National Socialism, and he was to be treated accordingly. to go to this conference? this action, although he was himself present in Berlin. First, he wanted to avoid a personal contact or touch with Reinecke, whom he regarded as the prototype of the National Socialist generals and to whom he was personally very antipathetic. Secondly, he told me and ordered me that it was to be my guiding principle to attempt through factual argument--that is to say, through appeals to reason--to set myself against this brutal and senseless order or at least to mitigate its evil effects so far as that might be possible. He as section chief could by no means be as daring as I, who, thanks to my subordinate position, could use much stronger language.
prisoners of war. This fact is also clearly recorded.
a particular name for Reinecke?
he was called the "small" or the "other Keitel".
make any other comment on these orders?
I don't know that, but at any rate, Buerckner communicated
Q When you say "protested through Buerckner", what do you mean?
Q Will you repeat that?
of international law. The export in t at section was Oster's inner circle.
After July 20 he was executed.
THE PRESIDENT: Would that be a convenient time to break off?
COLONEL AMEN: Yes, sir.
THE PRESIDENT: Until 2.00 o'clock.
(Whereupon the Tribunal recessed) Military Tribunal, in the matter of:
THE PRESIDENT: Yes, Colonel Amen.
(Erwin Lahousen resumed the stand and testified further as follows:)
BY COLONEL AMEN: about a conference in 1941 with Reinecke and others. Prior to that conference did Canaris tell you what kind of appeal to make to those present at the meeting? already said, that I should use arguments in order to reduce the consequence of the case and also that I should not use arguments of a humanitarian nature. the best of your recollection, exactly what happened and what was said in the course of that conference? and he explained these orders in the manner in which I described them before the recess. He said that those measures were necessary, and said it was particularly necessary that this idea should also be made clear to the Wehrmacht, and particularly to the officers as they apparently were still having ideas which belonged to the Ice Age.
Q What views did you present at this conference? Ausland's Abwehr and as representative of Canaris, and in the main I pointed out, first of all, the most unfavorable effect of such measures on the troops, particularly on the Front troops, that they would never understand such orders, particularly not the simple soldier.
Besides, we had reports that the executions were sometimes carried out before their eyes. office in regard to activities which referred to the office itself, the effect of these measures on the enemy, that is, practically speaking, the hindering of deserters, to prevent Russians from deserting, and who were surrendering without any opposition; and then the great difficulties which the Abwehr Division had in fighting agents, that is, people who for any reason had voluntarily kept themselves prepared to help. because I think there was quite a bit of confusion in the translation, I want to point up one or two of those arguments again. What did you say at this conference about the effect of the execution of these orders on Russian soldiers? orders some elements among the Russian soldiers were inclined to surrender and were prevented from doing so. Secondly, that people who for any reason had offered their services to the Abwehr would also be prevented by these measures. And that, taking it all together, above all, the opposite effect would be attained from that which they had desired, and that the resistance of the Russians would be increased to the utmost. what did you say about the effect of the execution of those orders on the German troops?
we had that the effect on the morale and on the discipline of the troops was terrible, devastating. Law at this conference?
A No. In this connection there was no discussion of International Law. The manner of selection of the prisoners of war was particularly stressed. It was completely arbitrary, apart from the order in itself, the general order itself.
Q We will get to that in a moment. Were your views accepted at this conference? I was representing, and were opposed in the sharpest possible manner by Mueller, who with the usual cliches rejected the arguments that I had produced, and who made the solo concession that the executions, in order to consider the feelings of the troops, should not take place in the face of the troops but at a secret place. He also made a few concessions in the question of the selection, which was completely arbitrary and was just left to the commander of whatever detail it was. whether an order was issued with respect to having these killings take place outside the sight of the German troops?
A Except for Mueller's acceptance, which I have just reported, I heard nothing more about it; not till now in an order that was shown to me have I seen the result of this statement. the manner in which these orders for the killings were being executed?
A Yes; in the course of discussions the whole question was discussed and also the manner in which these executions were carried out, according to my recollection, by the Kommando of the SD; that the SD had to make the selection and the places where the prisoners were to be assembled and arrange about the executions.
of the Russian prisoners of war in camps. Reinecke in a very sharp form supported Mueller's arguments and not mine and as strongly as possible, and with very sharp words. this conference the exact manner in which the sorting of these prisoners was made and in what way it was determined which of the prisoners should be killed? peculiar and completely arbitrary points of view. The leader of these Einsatz Kommandos took note of racial marks, particularly of course any Jews or Jewish types or any others that were looked upon as racially inferior, and those were selected for execution. The other leader of the SD selected the people according to their intelligence. The third had some other views, usually most peculiar, so that I felt obliged to put the question to Mueller "According to what principles does this selection take place? Has it anything to do with the height of a person or the size of his shoos?" and Reinecke took over the sane point of view as Mueller. The meaning of what I said was that the Ausland Abwehr wanted to males matters easier, and he took no note of what I said. orders were executed through official reports which you received? either from the front or from the camps. Officers of the Abwehr Division were in the camps, and in this way, through the normal service channels, we were informed orally of all these measures and of their effects. information not open to others?
that came to our ears by the normal channels. Practically, however, they were known to largo circles of the Wehrmacht, these things that happened in the camps, particularly in the selection. respect to the treatment which Russian prisoners generally were to receive in prison camps? was discussed by Reinecke, and Reinecke was of the opinion that in the carps the treatment must not be the same as the treatment of prisoners of war of the Allies, but here too, according to the principles already explained, their treatment must be carried out. The camp guards were to be furnished with whips, and they were to have the right at the very slightest sign of anybody attempting to escape or anything else which they did not desire, the arms were to be used. given?
A Those are details which I do not remember for the moment. I can only say what was mentioned in these discussions.
Q What, if anything, did Reinecke say about the whips? it was. branding of Russian prisoners of war?
THE PRESIDENT: Colonel Amen, I think you should refer to them as "Soviet", not "Russian" prisoners.
COLONEL AMEN: Yes, Your Honor. BY COLONEL AMEN:
Q Did you learn of such an order? the divisional chiefs were present, yes. order?
known. When the intention was made known of branding those prisoners, a very sharp protest was made at once. It was Buerckner who made the protest
Q What, if anything, did Canaris tell you with regard to this order? medical opinion, that it was madness to treat this in a medical opinion.
That was the main thing that was said in this discussion. official channels regarding plans to bring Soviet prisoners back to German territory? is, in discussions between Canaris and the chiefs of his divisions, I know that it had been planned to bring back prisoners into Germany, but that these projects were sudden ly stopped, and I remember that this was at the order of Hitler himself. One of the reasons was that these prisoner could not be accomodated and could not be provided with clothing. previous answer. Will you start again to tell us about the change which was made in these orders. Soviet prisoners back to German territory. Is that correct their not being brought back at the direct order of Hitler? the answer in the interpreting process. Pleas just repeat if again. cared for where they were outside the country. They could' be accomodated; they couldn't be fed; they couldn't be ** cally attended, and so great masses of them were without food or proper food, without any medical attention, without proper accomodation, mostly on the bare ground. A great many of them died.
Epidemics broke out. There was even cannibalism. That is, some people, because they were starving, ate other human beings. conditions. of these things that I have just described with my own eyes. These impressions that I had at the time are to be found in my notes. through official channels of the Abwehr? and from the Ausland's Abwehr. the Wehrmacht involved in the mistreatment of those prisoner knew about these matters Which referred to prisoners of war. Executions were matters for the SD and the Reichssicherheitshauptamt.
Q But isn't it a fact that the prisoner of war camps were entirely under the jurisdiction of the Wehrmacht? diction of the Supreme Commander of the Whermacht. Special Purpose Kommandos of the SS were responsible primarily for the executions and the selection of the peopl to be executed, is that correct? tion regarding the existence of an order for the killing of British Commandos?
with respect to this order? that such an order was going to be issued, was discussed in our circle, that is Canaris and the section chiefs. We were all, of course, absolutely agreed on its rejection apart from the aspects of international law because the Amt Ausland's Abwehr-- my division was Brandenburg-- would have had to fulfil such orders. Therefore, as chief of the section which was connected with the regiment, and for which I felt myself responsible in carrying out the repressive measures which were expected as a result of this order, I made the strongest protest possible against this order. protests? issued, either in written or oral form, and a second tine, after executions had been carried out as a result of this order, Canaris again by Amt Ausland through Buerckner, made protest against this order. I contributed to one of these written protests in the interests of my own section, Regiment Brandenburg, which was rather like the Kommandos. go?
A The pretests went to Canaris' superior officer, that is to say, the chief of the OKW.
Q Who was that? to Jodl?
A I can't say, but it is possible.
the protests which you made were. national law that soldiers, that is to say, not agents or spies, but soldiers who were shown to be such, should be killed after they had been taken prisoner. That was the main point. My division supported that idea because ay division was made up of soldiers and would have to carry out that kind of task itself.
these orders?
A Certainly. Other reasons were also mentioned according to the interest of the different divisions which were affected by these orders. For the Amt Ausland, it was the point of view of international law. The Abwehr Division was particularly interested in the interrogation of prisoners who had been taken, but never interested in having them killed. assisted in the preparation of these protests?
Q You mentioned Admiral Buerckner, did you not? wasn't the chief, but only for the Amt Ausland.
Q Now, have you ever heard of an operation known as "Gustav"? very like the one which was demanded in the elimination of Marshal Weygand. referred to the question of General Giraud. Keitel?
Q And are you referring to General Giraud of the French Army? my recollection, in the year 1942 fled from Koenigstein.
Q Do you know of any order issued with respect to General Giraud?
Q Who issued such an order?
A The Chief of the OKW. Keitel gave an order of this kind to Canaris, not in writing but orally.
Q How did you come to know about this order?
of the department, Chief of Abwehr Section III, Bentivegny, and a few other officers. We all heard it at a discussion with Canaris.
Q What was the substance of the order?
A The main content: of this order was to eliminate Giraud similar to Weygand.
Q When you say "eliminate" what do you mean? was to be killed. given by Keitel to Canaris? times repeated. I cannot say for certain when it was given for the first time as I was not present myself. It was probably after the flight of Giraud from Koenigstein and it was probably given for the first time to Heydrich in Prague. According to my notes, in the presence of Canaris, this subject was discussed in the presence of Keitel in July of the same year. this affair?
A I can't give the exact text, but the meaning was that he proclaimed the intention of having Giraud killed, similarly as in the case of Weygand, and asked me how the matter was progressing.
Q And what did you say to him on that occasion?
A I cannot remember the exact words. I probably gave some evasive answer.
Q Now, was this question later discussed by you at any time? August. The exact date can be found in my notes. Canaris rang me in my private apartment one evening. Keitel was urging him again, was pressing him about Giraud and the service chiefs were to meet the next day on this question. this larger circle what he had said to me over the phone the night before.