Q Within the Air Force, it is so that this group, this circle com-
prises the officers who had the position of chief of staff of the Air Force or commander-in-chief of the Air Force or of an air fleet during a certain time. I have a list here of those generals who belonged on the part of the Air Force to that group, and I should like to ask you concerning a few of them as to which rank and position these generals had had when the war started What was the rank of General Korten?
A I cannot be very sure about that; either colonel or lieutenant colonel, in my recollection.
Q Do you know what position he had? of the Air Force. What was he when the war started?
Q Do you know what position he had?
A No, I could not say that at this moment. It may be that he was chief of staff of an air corps of the Air Force.
Q And what rank would he have had as chief of a unit of that kind?
A Between major and colonel; that depends. What was he when the war started?
Q Then I have only a few more names. Do you know which rank and position Colonel-General Dessloch had at the beginning of the war?
A I do not remember that; it may be major or general or colonelgeneral.
Q And General Pflugbeil?
Q General Seidel? the war.
Q And which position did he have at that time?
A Well, it was about the commander of an army corps. As general quartermaster, you mean?
Q Yes. I still have a few questions concerning the Air Force and the highest military leaders. From your statement we could conclude that in 1939 the Air Force was not ready for war. To this point, could you possibly give me the reasons for this unpreparedness of the Air Force for war? power--until 1939, it would have been impossible for any country to build up an Air Force which would have been big enough for the tasks which presented themselves after 1939, That is impossible. And it is neither possible to establish the units nor the schools and furnish the teaching staffs, nor is it possible to build the planes themselves which are necessary, and to develop the models and to build them. It is neither possible in that short period to train personnel with respect to the high technical standards which are necessary. Likewise, it is impossible in such a short time to develop the ground crews and to put them at the disposition of the Air Force and the industry.
THE PRESIDENT: A little slower please, witness. He says that it is impossible. That is sufficient. It should not be necessary to go into this detail on this subject.
DR. LATERNSER: I have only a few more questions.
Q Did the Air Force expect resistance when it marched into Austria?
A No. We knew definitely there would be no resistance. We didn't even take any arms with us.
Q How was the reception there?
A So friendly it couldn't be friendlier in our own country. previously that a declaration of war to the United States was to be made? and their leaders on account of cruelties committed. Isn't it so that every soldier was instructed and informed about international law and the regulations?
A Yes. Each soldier had a so-called "Soldbuch", and on the first page there were all these regulations.
Q Can you give me examples for that?
The points which were on this page?
A Yes. For instance, that no soldier, no prisoner, should be shot; that no looting should be permitted. I have my book here. I can read it. Treatment of prisoners of war; Red Cross; the village should not be touched; the threat of punishment if these regulations should not be heeded. the civilians, was it so, as far as you know, that the commanders used all severe punishment against the soldiers? far as the death penalty. stances discipline of troops had to be maintained?
A Yes. I can give a particular example. A general of the Air Force had taken jewelry which belonged to a foreigner. He was convicted and executed. I think it was in 1943 or 1944. to Goering. Have you heard through him about a large, extensive plan for a large war? they have to hear more?
A No. All measures which were taken came like the occupation of the Rhineland came, very suddenly, sometimes after preparation of hours only. That applies to Austria; that applies to Czechoslovakia; and that applies to Prague. The only time that anything had been told us before was the affair with Poland, where we had a discussion on the 23rd of May. was a surprise?
Q Then I have one more question: How was it about the possibility of resignation for high military lenders during the war?
one could not submit an application to resign. It was said if anyone of us had to leave we would be told to do so. In an authoritarian state the citizen and the subordinate had no right to go by himself, neither a soldier nor a civilian.
DR. LATERNSER: I have no more questions.
THE PRESIDENT: The Tribunal will adjourn until Monday morning.
(The Tribunal adjourned until 11 March 1946 at 1000 hours.)
Official transcript of the International
THE PRESIDENT : Dr. Laternser, had you finished your examination?
DR. LATERNSER (Counsel for the OKW and General Staff): I have only a few more questions to ask the witness. BY DR. LATERNSER: preparation for war of the Luftwaffe in the year 1939, to what extent they were not prepared for war. In this connection I should like to ask whether the collaboration of the Luftwaffe with the OKW, Army and Navy did not exist in 1939? scale war nor were the others. They had reached no agreements with the other parts of the armed forces. I know nothing of any such preparations. existent, then you would have known of them? that time that that is so. pretty close in the year 1937? sonnel office. They all worked more or less separately, each for itself.
Q You just mentioned the General Staff. What do you understand by the German General Staff of the Luftwaffe? higher officers with special training who advised the commanders of the groups and assisted them.
Q Of what did the Luftwaffe of the General Staff consist?
who was at the disposal of the General Staff, also those officers who, as outside General Staff officers, were at the disposal of the Navy and the individual squadrons.
Q What were the conditions for promotions? outbreak of the war. We wanted to set up a larger air force at the time that should be completed six to eight years hence.
Q When would this limit have been reached? When would it have been finished?
THE PRESIDENT: Not only is there some technical fault, we are getting two translations at once, but both the witness and the counsel are going too fast.
Q In the year 1939 was there an organization of day and night raiders?
Q Was there an organization for bombing warfare? aggression.
Q To what extent were at that time air field organizations ready?
A Through the air fields there were thousand-meter long runways. These runways sufficed for fighters but not for loaded bombers.
Q What was the Intelligence situation?
A The leadership network was not present. It had to be improvised later during the war.
Q How was the Aircraft Observation Service? that originally in the first years large bomber types, four-motor bombers, which were designed for use at night--steps in that direction were undertaken. These bombers, however, I believe in the year 1937 were abandoned, although they were technically in order. It was believed that the expenditures involved in building such large bombers could be spared since no one was counting on a war at that time. This was at the time when Fieldmarshal Milch was Chief of the General Staff. This was submitted to the Reichsmarshal for decision, and he decided that these large bombers should be eliminated from the armaments program.
Q At which time was this?
A Just a moment; I will look it up. On the 29th of April 1937, the Reichsmarshal on the commission of the General Staff stopped the production of these large bombers. In this way it came about that in 1939 bombers designed for night bombing were not available, bombers which might have been compared with the English type, such as Lancaster bombers.
Q What was the personnel of the Air Force? personnel reserve. In this personnel reserve there were great difficulties. The question of the timing depended upon the personnel. It would have been possible to build airplanes quicker, but it would not have been possible to expand the development of the personnel. of when the program would be finished. It would have had a purpose to build up the personnel. Half trained people are less use than none.
THE PRESIDENT: Dr. Laternser, I don't want to interrupt your cross examination, but we have been sitting here for nearly 20 minutes now, and all I have got from it is that the Luftwaffe wasn't ready for war in 1939.
It seems to me too much time is being taken up with detail. BY DR. LATERNSER:
Q I have simply one more question in this matter. Were there reserves of aluminum and magnesium available, or were there other possibilities of acquiring these materials?
Q Then one last question. Witness, during your testimony on Friday, you mentioned Basic Order Number 1. You also gave us the content of this order. Now, in regard to this order I have this question. Was this order strictly observed or not?
DR. LATERNSER: I have no further questions to the witness.
THE PRESIDENT: Do any ofthe other defendants' counsel wish to ask the witness any questions?
DR. FLAECHSNER (Counsel for Speer): I'd like to ask the witness a few questions. BY DR. FLAECHSNER: the building of factories to build bombers? attacks in the year 1943 on. of April, 1944, and do you remember what was said then regarding the difficulties in construction, what was told Hitler about these matters and what Hitler ordered?
A Yes. At that time the Fuehrer had, I believe, asked for factories, six of them, 100,000 square meters in floor space each, and protected from air raids. Speer also at a subsequent time -- in April he was not there; he was sick--but later Speer raised objections to this. He considered the extent of this construction work was much too large and also much too belated. Later he pressed through the order that all buildings that weren't usable in July 1944, that those that could not be put into practical use should from that time on be abandoned.
Q As regards the worker question, in this discussion at the Obersalzberg, did the Fuehrer point out where we could find the working force to build these factories that he wanted?
A Yes. I believe I recall that on the objection of one of the people there, he would take care of the working forces to build those factories.
Q You said, Mr. Witness, that Speer was against this construction. How did things develop from then on? Speer was not present then?
Q Can you tell us briefly just what took place? other sides that this construction should be separated from Speer's function. Difficulties arose, since theoretically this construction was under Speer's command and could not be withdrawn from his purview altogether. He had himself no further influence.
Then the construction department of the O.T. was associated directly with the Fuehrer, and Speer was subsequently eliminated. One was speaking at that time a great deal of large scale construction, that there was no working force available for such construction. Speer's connection with this? also was sent to Speer. I recall rather vaguely that Speer once showed me such an order.
Q Onelast question on this matter. According to that, then, Herr Dorsch took over the responsibility for these construction works that wereimmediately ordered by the Fuehrer. point of view of the available German working forces available and the possibilities of signing up this work? Was there any such decision? raw material and also to bring a certain order into all questions of transportation, independent of the shortage of the war materials.
On the question of the availability of working forces it had nocommand authority. Also, the distribution of workers was influenced in part by the Central Planning Board, since the armaments industry could see what was necessary in each regard. But great difficulties arose so that practically this work had to be abandoned by the Central Planning Committee.
Q So decisions were not reached. We have heard affidavits stating that there were workers problems in the Central Planning. interest in this. There were other questions also, the question of accommodations, as well as other matters.
Q One last question on this point. Was the General Plenipotentiary for Labor for the Arbeitseinsatz in any way definitive in the entire planning of the distribution of the working forces?
Q Were there in the years 1943 or 1944 available work reserves? When did Speer demand these reserve work forces, or did he?
A Yes; Speer was very anxious that the available German work reserves should be included in the whole economic structure, if possible female workers, women from professions, who, other than their household duties had nothing to do.
Could you tell us something about that? to limit Speer's influence and who would have been interested in such matters? It is so hard to name all of those that might have had something to do to limit Speer's power. tion day?
A Speer's position was difficult. It was Speer's total attitude that became different more and morefrom that of the Fuehrer.
Q May I ask you to turn now to something else. In February 1944, through an order of Hitler, Speer was transferred to the Truck Department, and, if I am correctly informed, he was named as his representative. Could you tell us to what extent armament depends on the transportation situation? Allied airmen that armament goods and also other goods could not be transported, particularly great factories in the Ruhrgebeit could not transport their goods to the middle area and Berlin. Extraordinary measures were taken in this regard and begun so that total collapse could be avoided in the field of transportation. That was the general situation. special arrangements to transport armaments other than other things?
A No. The entire armament industry could produce nothing more than it was already producing at this time. He laid main emphasis on food for the population, not on armaments; also on the removal of food fromthose German territories that would be lost to the enemy. have a larger importance? that were there could be assured and transported. A particularly difficult matter at that time was the question of truck transportation.
and what did Speer do regarding trucks in the middle of February 1942? that they didn't suffice; also substitutes had to be found, electrical machines and even houses, etc. Here, too, so far as I know, Speer used this means of transportation for the German population to distribute food and to make that distribution possible.
Q This was one of the main bottlenecks? undertook the repair of the oxygen works that made fuel, whether he put this on a secondary level?
A Yes. I know, because Speer discussed it with me very extensivelythe question of wat--since collapse was imminent and inevitable--what was most needed to be done. His opinion was that the only thing to do was to help the German people as much as possible in order to make the very difficult times that would follow the war, as easy as possible. There was, on the one hand, the question of food, of housing, of transportation of food and its distribution; subsequently, prevention of the destruction of all German factories that were still in our hands, contrary to the orders Hitler issued on the "scorch-the-earth" policy. Thirdly, commission of the industry with peace other than war production, to the extent that those factories still stood at all of production, of agricultural machines, of replacement parts for such machines and such matters. Once these orders were turned in, they would have repercussions for instance, if the factory came into enemy hands or, if after the conclusion of the war, the war orders were automatically cancelled by the Government.
Q Witness, I should like to ask you only one more thing. Can you give us more details regarding the prevention of destruction-
THE PRESIDENT: Dr. Flaechsner, will you explain to me why this evidence that you are calling now is relevant and to what charge it is relevant?
DR. FLAECHSNER: Mr. President, the Defendant Speer is charged with the common conspiracy and with the common planning and waging of an aggressive war untilthe 7th of May 1945.
If I can demonstrate that, at last, for a considerable time before hand, the Defendant Speer was active in a way that had nothing to do with this conspiracy or planning, then I believe that this is important for the judgement to what extent he can be charged as to the Indictment.
THE PRESIDENT: All the evidence that you have been giving for the last fifteen minutes was related to 1943 and 1944, and is related to conferences with reference to the erection offactories for the production of bombers and the fact that, as far as I have understood it, the fact that Speer was engaged more on attempting to feed the German people than to build armament factories. What that has to do with it, I haven't any idea.
DR. FLAECHSNER: The first point related to a Document 4584-PS, in which the prosecution submitted a charge against my client, and it is stated that in a conference at Obersalzberg, the construction of particular factories was ordered and that for this construction, several hundred thousand Jews were used. I should like to establish that the Defendant Speer did not have any responsibility for this construction, since Hitler gave this commission for this construction directly to someone else. This point that the prosecution has submitted in support of its case could thereby be eliminated. That wasthe point of my first question. Now, the point of my second question, the purpose of my second question regarding Speer's effort to increase agricultural works is related to Speer, for all these activities which the witness has testified to, have exactly the opposite effect from that which the prosecution charges the defendant with. They did not serve war economy.
THE PRESIDENT: There is no charge against Speer on the ground that he attempted to feed the German people during the war. The prosecution haven't laid that against him as a charge. Now, it is simply a waste of time.
DR. FLAECHSNER: Mr. President, I never said that the prosecution raised this charge against him. There must be some mistake. BY DR. FLAECHSNER:
Q I have one last question, witness. Can you tell us something about the extent to which the Fuehrer gave reports on the extent of serious damage?
DR. FLAECHSNER: I thank you.
BY DR. ROBERT SERVATIUS: (Counsel for the defendant Sauckel)
Q The Central Panel was concerned with workers' plan, was it not?
Q From the need for workers? the workers docket. This is in the armament industry also.
Q May I interruptyou. After the need was established, for what purpose was this need determined? they could have for work.
Q Did this not take place when they demanded workers for work? to Sauckel, who was told that such an industry could not expect such work in the amount of work that they were entitled to make.
Q Do you know the total number? by the offices of the administration of Sauckel.
Q But as to conducting the need, Sauckel had that prorated?
Q What was the job of the Central Panel regarding this question? had to do with their production.
Q I am not asking about that of raw material, but about the workers? brought that up.
Q Of raw material? workers had to be used. For example, in mining, or in the aluminium factories
Q May I interrupt you. It is clear that men were needed for production I know, but I am asking you about the workers, and in the final determining part that was necessary. basis of what he should provide, and as the time became less, and ran on -
do with the decisions?
A So far as I know the Fuehrer had a great deal to do in this matter; often it was his decision, and I noticed that Sauckel often conferred with Hitler on this matter. question take place? with the Fuehrer, and these conferences which were with the Fuehrer on the workers question was very short. He did not want to take up these matters with him.
Q How was the Fuehrer's Four-Year Plan concerned in this? Hitler the Plan was not readily discussed by Hitler, because he did not want to hear this matter discussed in that connection. matter?
A I say it was excellently conducted. The first year the workers were glad they had this opportunity to work. They were treated better, and about everything; they were given more food than that of the German population, and they, like the German workers, they received extra rations for working in heavy industries. The bench workers particularly were good, and likewise the same applied on rations. There was occasion of compensatory relations about the Dutch workers. were they known to you?
Q Did he take a mild or a sharp point of view?
A He took a very humane point of view. Sauckel had a very difficult task by Hitler's attitude. He himself was of what I know a worker; he knows hard work from having been a sailor, and having a fine feeling for the workers.
THE PRESIDENT: Mr. Witness, it seems like you have seen that light go on three times. Will you kindly observe it. You have seen that light go on three times, will you kindly observe it, and go slower when that light goes on.
THE WITNESS: Yes.
DR. SERVATIUS: I have no further questions. BY DR. HERMANN JAHRREISS: ( Counsel for the defendant Jodl).
Q Mr. Witness, did you take part in the maneuvers of the Wehrmacht in 1937? present? who became later Governor of Gibraltar.
Q The General Ironside?
A Yes, General Ironside. I had seen him personally, and I knew a few gentlemen of his staff. They were Italians, and a large number of other nations. At the moment I cannot say precisely. I would have to look in my memorandum. I would have it in my memorandum for me to say who were present.
Q Was there a French Delegation there?
Q But you do rot know for sure? have spoken to Dr. -- General Ironside personally.
Q Now, do you know, Mr. Witness, that at that time the newest German element of armaments were shown to the foreign officers?
A Yes, also in action. Of course, only action was shown, with the exception of the demonstration of the new airplane which was not used for action, that was just shown. that demonstrated to the foreign power our measure of armaments?
A Yes, very frequently Mr. Fraser from England, together with Lord Trenchard were shown it, and further were interested in the air defense installations, and we showed him the most modern things immediately.
Q When was that?
A I believe in 1937, or 1933. I will see if I can find it. (Witness looks in small book). July 1937, the 1st of July.
Q Yes. Do you know whether under the terms, that there was something there from England? British, I personally know I made a connection. However, I have not taken part -
Q Thank you. Another question. Do you remember the conflict in the question of the occupation of Rhineland. Do you know what excitement was caused by that question? take part?
A That I cannot say at the moment, I cannot answer. The re-occupation of Rhineland came so suddenly that it surprised me while I was on a vacation, When I returned, it was all one way. I know this as when Duesseldorf was occupied also by the airforce. I was there myself only the next day.
Q That is on the right side of the Rhine?
Q On the left side, you do not know about?
A No, I could not say for the moment. I do not believe there was any airfield, but I cannot remember that exactly. was not there anything prepared for the event, in the event it was used by the air force?
A During my leave the decision had been made; that the person which it was at the disposal had been informed to put it in readiness for the purpose, but it was very wrong.
Q Yes, but I am not getting an answer to my question. During your leave for the first time the air force was alerted?
Q And how far was the period date before the occupation? the maximum.
Q One more question. On Friday you had told us something about the participation of the air force in the military part of the execution of the Anschluss policy of1938. From then on Then did the preparation start, the date?
A The preparation dated less than forty-eight hours back. I can say that precisely. preparation in that solution how long?
DR. JAHRREISS: Thank you. BY DR. KURT KAUFFMAN:(Counsel for the defendant Kaltenbrunner). I am Dr. Kauffmann.
THE PRESIDENT: For whom. You are Dr. Kauffmann, and for whom?
DR. KAUFFMANN: For the defendant Kaltenbrunner.
Q Mr. Witness, is it correct that in the way of orders, or in the way of channels, you had nothing to do with the Gestapo, or of the concentration camps? of concentration camps?
A By the general publication in 1933; I found out that one concentration camp had been installed. about other installations of that kind? and Oranienburg. Of other concentration camps I did not know anything. I have seen the camp of Dachau in 1935, and I visited it with a few higher officers of the air force, and never at any other concentration camp, I have not seen and I have nowknown anything about what happened there.
Q How was it at the time when you visited Dachau. What was your impression about that installation, and the treatment of the prisoners, and so on? question in Germany on that subject, that I decided to get the information first hand myself, and that desire was approved by Hitler without any difficulty -- by Himmler. At the time I believe there existed only Dachau. I found there that there were groups of inmates, one group where there were criminals, and another group consisted of people who committed the same crimes of less offense where you could call them not criminals, they were minor crimes. Then there was a group that consisted of, but without every reason, war patients. I saw one person there whom I knew there before, he was, I thin an SA leader, and he was in the camp. The camp was clean. Militarily organized. They had their own slaughter houses; their own bakery, we saw that, and, they gave us food which had been used, and we demanded the things which the people ate in the camp at the time. I t was good. And by leading persons in the camp we were told that for some prisoners could get better food because they had had hard work. All prisoners to whom we spoke mentioned the reasons why they were in camps. Frequently men would tell us twenty times that they committed fraud, and so forth. Whether they showed us everything in that large complex, that I could not say, of course.