But I believe 7 Aug A LJG 20-2 Cumoletti that there was no deception in regard to what I did learn.
the Concentration Camps were sites for the extermination of human beings?
A I did not gain this impression. A Concentration Camp is not a site for the extermination of human beings. I must say that the first visit to a Concentration Camp, the first one was at Buchenwald, was a great surprise to me. The Camp is on a wooded heights with an excellent view. The installations are clean and thoroughly painted. There is grass and flowers. The prisoners were healthy, normally fed, and brown.
THE PRESIDENT: When are you speaking of? in July 1945.
Q What crimes? --you may continue - please be more brief pecially the hospital. The Commandant was ordered to provide the prisoners with an existance worthy of a human being. They had regular meal service. They had a large book store, even with foreign books. They had variety shows, motion pictures, sportin events. They even had a Bordello. All the other camps were similar to Buchenwald.
THE PRESIDENT: What did you say they even had?
Q What crimes did you learn about? suspicion of corruption. In time however, I had to ascertain that killings had also occurred. occurred? assignment of Jews to the Camps after the action in 1938. I had to learn all possible facts about this action. I learned that prisoners of whom it would be assumed that they might know some thing about these signs of corruption, had in the majority died.
7 Aug A LJG 20-3 Cumoletti This frequency of killings was noticeable particularly because other prisoners who were not in any key positions were in Buchenwald for years in the best of health and were still there. So that it was rather suspicious that certain prisoners who would have been witnesses had died. I examined the files of these deaths of prisoners. The files did not then give rise to suspicion of illegal killing. The dates of deaths were years apart and different causes of death were given. But I noticed that the majority of these prisoners who had died, shortly before their death had been put in the hospital or under arrest. This aroused my suspicion that in this place murders of prisoners might have occurred. Thereupon I appointed a special officer, whose sole task was to examine the suspicions and rumors about this killing of prisoners. He was a very energetic criminal official, but he had to report again and again that he had not the least evidence of this suspicion of mine. After two weeks of completely unsuccessful activity, the criminal official refused to continue and asked me ironically whether I myself believed that such rumors of killing of prisoners could be true. Only by accident, much later, was I put on the trail. I noticed that in the case of certain prisoners in the books of the Kommandantur of the prison, and in the books at the hospital, they had been carried in both books. In the prison book for example, it said, "Dismissal 9 of May 12 o'clock". In the register of the hospital, "Patient died 9 May 9:15 AM". I said to myself, "This prisoner cannot be in the Kommandantur Prison and at the same time a patient in the hospital." Wrong entries must have been made here. I concentrated my efforts on this and I succeeded in finding out about this system, a system of Kommandant Koch.
mostly in a cell of the Kommandantur prison and witness reports and death certificates were prepared for them. They were made out so cleverly that any unsuspecting reader of the document would get the impression that the prisoner concerned had actually been treated and had died of the serious illness, which it indicated.
Q Then what did you do after learning of these facts? Dr. Westhefen, was responsible and I had him dismissed. I informed my investigating commission of those forgeries and directed their attention to investigating systematically in the concentration camp and investigating in other concentration camps as well if such murders had taken place. We learned at the time of the investigation, and I am speaking of Buchenwald in 1943, that in the concentration camps of Sachsenhausen and Dachau no such killings occurred, as far as it was humanly possible to learn. In the other concentration camps, however, such cases were found. The persons believed to be guilty were accused, arrested and charged.
Q Why was this not done earlier? possible to recognize them earlier. Above all, there was no possibility to clear up the matter and then this was always done without witnesses. These cases could have been investigated by the SS court and they were investigated. Every unnatural death of a prisoner was reported by teletype to the central agency. In addition, the court official in the camp had to go to the site immediately, question the witnesses, photographs had to be made of the scene and it was the rule that an autopsy had to take place of every such record of unnatural deaths, or any death suspected of being unnatural. This was sent regularly to the SS and police court, but as I have already said, these reports were so clover and the files were in such good order, that even an expert could not have suspected an illegal killing. Of course, sentences against members of the concentration camp personnel were constantly carried out and even death sentences. But, this state of crime seemed to be at the regular rate of 0.5% to 3%, If nothing at all had been reported to the SS court of the concentration camps, they would have been suspicious.
They would also have been suspicious, of course, if too many such reports were made, but it was a normal average and one could have no suspicion that in the concentration there were such dangerous crimes. Only through my investigation, which I said was caused by accident, did we receive insight into the true state of affairs.
Q How did you come on the trail of mass destruction? You have just spoken of individual destruction.
A I come on the trail of mass destruction also by accident. At the end of 1943, I received two trails, one led to Lublin and one to Auschwitz. Police in Lublin. He reported that in his district in a Jewish labor camp a Jewish wedding had taken place. There had been 1,100 invited guests at this wedding.
As I said, 1,100 guests participated in this Jewish wedding. The dinner course was quite extraordinary and there was a large consumption of food and alcohol. Among those Jews were members of the SS troop, who took part in this function. This report, which came in months later, said the Kommandant of the Security Police was suspicious and there had been a horrible accident. This was my impression as well and there was no indication of the corruption and crime. With this intention, I went to Lublin and I reported to the Security Police there. Nothing was known about it, but I was told there was a possibility that this happened at a camp near Lublin. I found out the name of the Kommandant of the camp and learned that it was the Kriminalkommissar Wirt.
I asked Wirt whether this report was true and what it meant. To my great astonishment, Wirt admitted it, I asked him why he permitted members of his command to do this and Wirt revealed to me that on behalf of the Fuehrer he had to carry out the destruction of Jews.
A I asked Wirt what this had to do with the Jewish wedding. Then, Wirt described the method by which he carried out the extermination of Jews and he said as follows: "One has to fight the Jews with their own methods and one has to shit on them."
Wirt built up an enormous destruction maneuver. He selected Jews as service column leaders, then those Jews brought along other Jews, who worked under them. With these smaller or medium sized details of Jews, he began to build up the extermination camp. He extended this staff of Jews and with these Jews, Wirt carried out the extermination of the Jews.
working at the extermination of Jews and the seizure of Jewish property. In order to win Jews for this business of extermination and plundering of their fellow Jews, Wirt gave then freedom and, so to speak, gave them a financial part in the exploitation of the victims. As a result of this attitude, this Jewish wedding had come about. Wirt described the whole procedure that went off like a film every time. The extermination camps were in the East of the Government General and in big forests or uninhabited lands. They were built up like a village. The inhabitants expected to come into a city or settlement. The train drove into what looked like a railroad station. The operating personnel and the train personnel left the area. Then the cars were opened and the Jews got out. They were surrounded by the Jewish details, and Kriminal Kommissar Wirt or one of his representatives made a speech. He said, "Jews, you were brought here to be resettled, but before we organize this future Jewish state, you must of course learn how to work. You must pick up a new occupation. You will learn that here. First, every one must take off his clothes so that your clothes can be disinfected and you can be bathed so that no epidemics will be brought into the camp." road to death. Men and women were separated. At the first station, one had to give his hat; at the next one, his coat, his collar, his shirt, down to his shoes and socks. These places were set up like checkrooms, and the person was given a check at each one so that the people believed that they would get their things back. The other Jews had to accept the things and hurry up the new arrivals so that they could not have time to think. The whole thing was like an assembly line. At the last stop they reached a big room. It was said that this was the bath. When the last one was in, the doors were shut and the gas was let into the room. air could be breathed again. The doors were opened, and the Jewish workers removed the bodies. By means of a special procedure which Wirt had invented, they were burned in the open air without the use of fuel.
Q Was Wirt a member of the SS?
Q Did you ask Wirt how he arrived at this devilish system? a specialist in mass destruction of human beings. He had previously carried out the task of removing the incurably insane. On behalf of the Fuehrer himself, through the Chancellery of the Fuehrer, at the beginning of the war he had set up a detail, probably from agents and spies of the criminal police. Wirt described how he went about carrying out this assignment. He received no aid, no instructions, but had to do it all by himself. He was given an institution in Brandenburg. There he undertook his experiments. After much consideration and nary individual experiments, he care to his later system, and then this system was used on a large scale. insane who were considered to be incurable were put on a separate list. Then the institution one day was told to send these patients to another institution. From this institution the patient was transferred again, often more than once. Finally he came to Wirt's institution. There he was killed by gas and cremated. accomplices, this system that he worked out with very few assistants for being able to exterminate large numbers of people, this system Wirt now employed with a few improvements in the extermination of Jews. He was also given the assignment by the Fuehrer's Chancellery to exterminate the Jews. Did you believe Wirt? one of his camps. It was a camp in which I found part of the property of his victims. From the number of them -- there were a great number of watches piled up -- I had to realize that atrocities were being committed here. I was shown the valuables. I never saw so much money, especially foreignmoney -- all kinds, from all over the world. In addition, there were gold bars. was very small and inconspicuous. He had only three or four people working there for him, I spoke to them too.
I watched his courier arrive from Berlin, Tiergarten Strasse, the Fuehrer's Chancellery. I investigated Wirt's mail.
Of course, I did not do all of this at this first visit. I was there frequently. I prosecuted Wirt up to his death. operation? those who participated could be counted on one's fingers. I remember one name: I think the name was Blankenburg, in Berlin.
THE PRESIDENT: Well, we had better adjourn now. We have already been 50 minutes.
(The Tribunal adjourned until 1000 hours, 8 August 1946).
BY DR. PELCKMANN ( Counsel for the SS):
Q. Witness, I have two pictures to show to you which have nothing to do with your examination concerning the concentration camps.
DR. PELCKMANN: They are the same pictures, your Lordship, which I showed to the witness Eisenberger yesterday. They have now received an exhibit number from me, Exhibit SS No. 2 and exhibit SS No. 3. As I said yesterday, they are taken from the book in the Polish language which the Prosecution submitted a few days ago, on pages IX and XI. BY DR. PELCKMANN:
Q. What is the rank of this SS man, witness.
A. That cannot be an SS man. That man is not wearing an SS uniform. I never saw such a uniform. On the left arm, the man wears the insignia of the police.
Q. That is enough, witness. That is enough for the Court. I will show you the second photograph Please answer the question equally briefly.
A. That is not an SS uniform either, but an imaginary uniform.
Q. Witness, yesterday you had begun the description of the so-called extermination camps and the system of the extermination camps, but I should like to go back to conditions In the concentration camps which are to be distinguished from the so-called extermination camps. Was extraordinarily pleasant. So that there may be no false impression, will you please describe what the general negative observations were that you made.
A. I was asked for my impressions of the concentration camps, whether I gained the impression that they were extermination camps.
I had to say that this impression could not arise. I did not mean to say that the concentration camps were sanitoria or a paradise for the prisoners. If they had been that, my investigations would have been senseless. the concentration camps. The concentration camps were establishments which, from a false principle had to give rise to crimes. When I speak of the principle, I mean the following : The prisoner was sent to the concentration camp through the RSHA. A political agency decided about his freedom, and its decision was final. The prisoner was put in a position of having no legal rights. Once in the concentration camp, it was almost impossible to regain his freedom. Although, at regular intervals, the cases were reviewed the procedure was so complicated that aside from exceptional cases the majority were not affected. The camp, the RSHA, and the agency which had assigned the individual to the camp had to agree to his released. Only if these three agencies reached agreement could release be effected.
of the SS Obergruppenfuehrer Pohl, the production side was also important: if a prisoner was needed in the camp because he was good, even though all conditions for release existed, he could not be released. The concentration camps were surrounded by a sphere of secrecy. The prisoner could not have any free contact with the public.
MR. DODD: Mr. President, we do not have the first responsibility, of course, for this defense. But I have discussed with Mr. Elwyn Jones my objection, and he finds no fault with it. It seems to me that what we are hearing here is a lecture on the prosecution's case, and I do not see how it in any sense can be said to be a defense of the SS.
THE PRESIDENT: Dr. Pelckmann, the Tribunal thinks that the latter part of the evidence does not have much bearing on the case of the SS. They think it would be better that you should get on with the case for the SS.
DR. PELCKMANN: The case against the SS is essentially based on the assertion that the SS as a whole is responsible for the concentration camps. I am endeavoring to explain the concentration camp system from the ground up with all questions which have not yet been explained, to find out the truth. And I believe that it is necessary for the Tribunal to know this truth in order to be able to judge whether the charge that the SS as a whole is responsible for the atrocities and the mass exterminations in the concentration camps, or in the extermination camps.
THE PRESIDENT: Kindly go on with your case, then, Dr. Pelckmann. Will you kindly go on and make it as short as you can upon these matters which seem to be rather remote.
DR. PELCKMANN: From all the testimony of witnesses which I have brought out here on this point, it will be shown that the concentration camp system was a closed system.
THE PRESIDENT: Go on with your case. You are to go on with your case, and not argue with me.
BY DR. PELCKMANN:
Q. Witness, what were the further negative observations which you made? Please be brief as the Court wishes.
A. The prisoner could not contact the public freely, and so his observations were not made known to the public. In effect, he was subordinate to the power of the camp. This meant's that he had to fear that at any time crimes could be committed against him. I do not have this impression from these facts from which I could not gain the impression that their purpose was to produce a system of crimes; but, of necessity, individual crimes had to arise from all these circumstances.
Q. Witness, the events of the atrocities and the mass exterminations in the concentration camps are precisely what was charged against the SS. Ple describe how these crimes are to be divided into three categories, and what that has to do with the total planning of the SS. According to your information, I distinguish between atrocities caused by conditions beyond control atrocities caused by supreme orders, and atrocities caused by individual criminal acts.
A. A large majority of the horrible conditions in some concentration camps at times did not arise from planning, but developed from circumstance which I must call evil, but for which the local camp leaders were not responsible. I am thinking of the outbreak of epidemics. At irregular intervals many concentration camps became victims of typhus, caused especially by the arrival of prisoners from the Southeastern area. Although everything humanly possible was done to prevent these epidemics and to combat them, the death rate which resulted was sometimes extremely high. Many camps were overcrowded. Long transport lines were closed by air-raids and the prisoners arrived in a weakened condition. Towards the end of the war, there was a general collapse of the transportation system. Deliveries could not be carried out to the necessary extent; chemical and pharmaceutical factories had been bombed. There was a lack of medical care. And as a result of the evacuations from the East, the camps, of necessity, had to be overcrowded.
Q. That is enough on this point. Will you go on to the second point, please ?
A. As supreme orders were considered in the mass extermination of human beings which I have described, not in the concentration camps but in separate extermination places, execution orders of the RSHA against individuals and groups of persons also existed.
Q. Will you go on to the third point, please ?
A. The third point was the majority of individual crimes-
THE PRESIDENT: Which is the witness talking about when he talks about extermination camps?
Which are you talking about? Which do you call extermination camps BY DR. PELCKMANN:
Q. Please answer the question, witness.
A. By extermination camps I mean those which dealt exclusively with the purpose of the extermination of human beings with the use of technical means, such as gas.
THE PRESIDENTS Which were they ?
THE WITNESS: Yesterday I described the four plans of the Criminal Commission, WIRT, and referred to the camp Auschwitz. By "Extermination Camp Auschwitz" I did not mean the concentration camp. It did not exist there. But I meant a separate extermination camp near Auschwitz.
THE PRESIDENTS What were the other ones ?
THE WITNESS: I do not know of any other extermination camps. BY DR. PELCKMANN:
Q. You were speaking of atrocities on the basis of individual acts of a criminal nature,
A. One must distinguish between the perpetrators. To begin with, there were killings by one prisoner of another, for example, for purposes of revenge. If a prisoner had broken out, then during the search, because one did not know where the prisoner was hiding -- perhaps in the camp Itself -the whole camp had to line up on the parade grounds. That lasted for hours, and sometimes a whole day.
The prisoners were tired and hungry, and this long standing, sometimes in the cold or rain, excited them very much, so that when the prisoner was recaptured the other prisoners sometimes killed him out of motives of revenge. of them was spy. In self-defense an attempt was made to kill this prisoner There were cases in which individual prisoners were weak and could not work very well. And, in addition, either by bad conduct or by stealing bread or by other things aroused the anger of other prisoners. criminals be can understand that these people killed fellow prisoners. This was done in many ways.
Q I don't think you need explain that at the moment. Perhaps we may come back to it. But will you describe another type of perpetrator? especially by the Kapos. I could describe the case of the commandant of the concentration camp Buchenwald, who was tried and executed, Koch. A prisoner was sent to the concentration camp Buchenwald who was a Party member. He received the position of leader of a Corps. He misused this position to force Polish household employees to commit perverse actions with him with a threat of dismissal although he himself was suffering with syphilis. This man was given a long imprisonment sentence and after that was assigned to the concentration camp. Koch found his files, considered the sentence mistaken, and thought it necessary to correct an error of justice. He had this prisoner killed, Another case of an entirely different sort: Koch believed that a certain Jewish prisoner, who was conspicuous because of his physical marks, was following him. In the superstitious fear of bad lick, he one day gave instructions to have this prisoner killed. Another case: Koch believed that criminal activity, or certain personal relationships, were known to some prisoners. In order to protect himself, he had them killed. the camp know about them?
A That was very simple. The prisoners in question were held up, without giving reasons, and had to report to gates of the camp. That was not especially noticeable because almost every hour prisoners were called for questioning for removal to other camps and so forth. These prisoners, without the other prisoners knowing about it, came to the so-called Kommandantur prison, which was outside the camp. They stayed there a few days, sometimes one or two weeks, and then the prison manager had them killed, sometimes in the form of a sham inoculation: actually, they were given an injection of phenol into the arteries. Another possibility of secret killing was the assignment to the hospital. The doctor said a man needed treatment, After sometime he was put into a single room and was killed there. In all these cases the record showed that the prisoner had died of such and such a normal illness. Another case: the prisoner was assigned to a detail of hard work, generally the so-called "Quarry detail". The Kapo of this detail was told to make the life of the prisoner hard by making his work harder and persecuting him in all ways.
Then one day the prisoner, in order to escape this persecution, runs away and has to be shot by the guard whether he wants to or not. These various forms of killing varied from case to case. By that vary far they were so unrecognizable because it took place in secret places by various methods at various times. This commandant who did this, like Kock here, had to r rely on certain special men in key positions, such as the doctors here who was arrested, the man in charge of the prison who was also arrested, the man in charge of the prison who was also arrested and committed suicide, and with the aid of Kapos who were devoted to him and who would cooperate with him. Where this cooperation was not possible, such excesses and crimes could not occur.
Q Did you find such cases and such camps?
A Yes. I have already mentioned the result of our investigation. Since the majority of the camps were set up during the war with new personnel and in the old camps the personnel in key positions was changed so that new people came in, this cooperation could no longer take place. all camp doctors acted in the way you have just described? tion would be completely wrong. I met many commandants who did everything humanly possible for their prisoners. I met dozers whose every effort was to help sick prisoners and prevent further sickness. ed. You spoke of Kriminalkommissar Wirt who was not a member of the SS and whose staff did not consist of SS men. Why was Wirt given the assignment?
A Wirt was Kriminalkommissar with the Criminal Police in Stuttgart. He was a Kommissar to investigate capital crimes, particularly murder. He had quite a reputation in tracing clues, and before the seizure of power he was known to the general public of unscrupulous methods of investigation which even led to a discussion in the Wuerthemberg Landtag (Diet). This man was now used in order to cover up the traces of these mass killings. It was thought that, on the basis of his previous experience, this man was unscrupulous enough to carry them out, and that was true.
Q You mentioned the Jewish prisoners who aided in the killings. What became of these people?
and the profits which he had let them have was taken away from them again. He did not do this all at once but through the deception maneuver already described by taking individuals and groups gradually, segregating them and killing them individually.
Q Did you hear from Wirt the name Hoess?
A Yes. Wirt called him an untalented student.
Q Why?
A In contrast to Wirt, Hoess used entirely different methods. I would best describe them if we speak of Auschwitz itself.
Q Was the name Eichmann mentioned at that time? later I heard of him too.
Q How did you come on the trail which led to Auschwitz?
A I had the first occasion through Wirt himself. Now I had to find a reason to institute investigations in Auschwitz itself. My assignment was limited; it was to investigate crimes of corruption.
THE PRESIDENT: Dr. Pelckmann, didn't he explain how he came to investigate Auschwitz yesterday?
DR. PELCKMANN: No, it is something different, Your Lordship.
THE WITNESS: Yesterday I spoke only of Lublin and Wirt. I said I received information about Hoess and wanted to get into the camp and needed a reason. I found this reason very soon. The Protectorate Police had heard about the smuggling of gold in the Protectorate. The traces led to Berlin. The customs agency, Berlin-Branenburg, had discovered persons in the concentration camp Auschwitz were responsible. Proceedings were turned over to the SS and Police Court in Berlin. I learned of it there and there proceedings concerning the enormous gold smuggling I took over and went to Auschwitz.
Q Then you were in Auschwitz proper?
THE PRESIDENT: When did you go there?
THE WITNESS: I cannot give the date exactly, but it was probably the end of 1943 or the beginning of 1944. BY DR. PELCKMANN: cribed yesterday? ment. The prisoners arrived in closed, railroad transports and were unloaded there by Jewish prisoners. Then they were sorted out according to those capable or incapable of working, and here the methods of Hoess and Wirt differed. The selection of those incapable of all work was done in a fairly simple way. There were several trucks and the doctor told the arrivals to use the trucks. He said that only six old persons and women with children, were allowed to use them. These persons went to the transports and then they needed only to tell the prisoners that they were not being sent to destruction. These trucks drove off but they did not drive to the concentration camp Auschwitz, but in another direction to the extermination camp Monowitz which was a few kilometers away. This extermination camp consisted of a number of crematoriums. They were not recognizable as such from the outside. They could be considered large bathing establishments. This was told to the prisoner. Each crematorium was surrounded by a barbed wire fence and was guarded by the Jewish details which I have already mentioned. The prisoners were led into a big room and told to take their clothing off. When this was done ....
Q Is that not what you described yesterday? secret? knowing where the other prisoners were being taken or that they were being taken to the extermination camp Monowitz which was far from the camp of Auschwitz.
Q Please speak slowly.
as such. It was guarded on the outside by special troops, men from the Baltics, Estonians, Lithuanians, Latvians, and Ukranians. The technical arrangement was, of course, exclusively in the hands of the prisoners themselves, supervised by an Unterfuehrer. The letting in of the gas was done by another Unterfuehrer. The number of those who knew about these things was extremely limited. BY THE PRESIDENT:
Q Were these Unterfuehrers in the SS?
Q Didn't you take the trouble to ascertain whether they were proper members of the SS?
Q I do not care what you have already said. What I asked you was, didn't you take the trouble to ascertain whether they were members of the SS?
A I beg your pardon, your Lordship. I did not understand your question.
They could not be members of the General SS. As far as I could learn, they were volunteers and draftees who had been recruited in the Baltic countries and who carried out security tasks and were especially selected and came to Auschwitz and Monowitz. These were special troops who had only this special task and no other. They were completely outside of the Waffen SS.
Q I didn't ask you if they were in the Waffen SS. Did you ask questions as to why they were put into SS uniforms?
A No, I did not ask these questions. It seemed incomprehensible to me. It is probably connected with the fact that the Commander of the concentration camp ....
Q Wait a minute. You said, as I understand it, that you considered it incomprehensible why they were the SS uniforms. Didn't you say that?
Q Were there no officers of the SS there at all? fuehrer Hartenstein, or something like that.
Q Why didn't you ask him why these men were put into SS uniforms? of the SS Standartenfuehrer Hoess. Hoess was commandant of the concentration camp Auschwitz, and also of the extermination camp, Monowitz. Around Auschwitz were a number of labor camps.
Q I didn't ask you where. what I am asking you is why you didn't ask these two SS officers why they allowed these men to be put into SS uniforms? extermination camp would not be distinguished from the other labor camps and the concentration camp itself. It was incomprehensible to me that this was done to the reputation of the SS which had nothing to do with the extermination.
Q You yourself were a higher SS officer, were you not?
Q Well, what I am asking you is this. Why, in those circumstances, you made no inquiry about it, and why you didn't ask these SS officers there, 'What is the meaning of these men being put into SS uniforms'?
THE PRESIDENT: Go on. BY DR. PELCKMANN: you not ask the higher SS leaders whom you met there why these men, these people, were working in SS uniforms? camouflage so that the camp would not be distinguished from the other camps. did not make inquiry of the officers, is that true?
A I cannot remember having asked the officers about it. I did not speak to officers but only to the commandant Hoess and the commandant of the guards -- these guards of the extermination camp.