Q. I want you to look at the last paragraph but one on Page 4 of Exhibit D 959 -- the fourth paragraph down in the English text. "On May 4, 1945. after having plundered the village of Javorisko, in the district of Litovel the SS burned it down. During this execution the SS troops shot in the nape or killed in the burning houses all the male inhabitants of the village from the age of 15 to 70 years. Were with children after having been ill treated were driven away. The execution, at which 38 men lost their lives, took place because the inhabitants of the village were suspected of hiding partisans." Have you any knowledge of that act or an action of that kind that the SS took part in?
A. No. Such actions never became known to me. Obviously, we are here concerned with the last fight for Prague.
Q. I want you to turn to some further evidence about the ill treatment by SS guards of transports of prisoners from concentration camps. The fifth paragraph down on page 5 of the report refers to 312 persons being beaten to death or shot or died, and their bodies buried in a coal pit. You see it stated there that the beatings and killings were done by SS guards. It is very much like the Dutch report, is it not ? And then there follows in the last section, crimes committed during the Revolution of May, 1945, further accounts of SS atrocities. Now, witness, I want you to look at a new document, D 878 which will be GB 572 which is a report from the Scientific Statistical Institute of the Reichsfuehrer SS on the composition of the SS. I want you to look, if you will, at the third parge, a page market page 1. That sets out -- I am sorry, My Lord, I haven't a translation of this, but I think the entries will speak for themselves. That is headed "Total strength of the SS as on the 30th of June 1944". You will see it shows "Allgemeine SS" and the translation, I think, is excluding those members who, at the moment, are serving as reserves of the Waffen SS, "Nicht einberufen", Total called up 66,614.
THE PRESIDENT: 64,000 BY MR, ELWYN JONES:
Q. 64,000, Called up in the Wehrmacht, 115,908. Called up to the labor front, 722.
In miscellaneous duties, 19,254, a total of 200,498 of the Allgemeine SS. Can you tell the Tribunal whether those not called up among the 64,000 odd were performing police duties, or were some of these performing police duties ?
A. In my view the figures which are contained in the document concern members of the General SS who were neither called up nor carrying out any other type of activity -- in other words, who were following their civilian occupations at home. In other words, used in the economic life.
Q. The last category of 19,254 on miscellaneous duties, were those the people who were forming the personnel of the Einsatzkommandos ?
A. That is absolutely out of the question, because the personnel for Einstzkommandos only consisted of a few hundred men. The conception of the general use of the Einstz must refer to some other function which I cannot at the moment touch.
Q. You will see that that page shows the total in the Waffen SS, 594,443. I want youth turn to Page 24-
THE PRESIDENT: Mr. Jones, what is the final total described ?
MR. ELWYN JONES: The total, 794,941.
THE PRESIDENT: What does the second German word mean ?
MR. ELWYN JONES: "Insgesamt", "altogether", My Lord.
THE PRESIDENT: "altogether". I see. BY MR. ELWYN JONES:
Q. You turn to Page 24 and you will see that that total of members of the Waffen SS of 594,443 is divided up into various categories : First, the Feldtruppenteile, which are field units, 368,654. Then the next is, I understand, Recruiting Staff , 21,365. The next category, training and reserve, 127,643. The schools, 10,822. Then other units and offices directly subordinate to SS leadership head office, 26,544. And then in the head office, 39,415 making the grand total of 594,443. That entry of 26,544 other units and offices directly subordinate to SS leadership head office -- who were these men ? Were they the personnel of the Einsatzkommandos ?
A. I beg to repeat the answer I have just given you. We cannot be concerned in this case with the personnel of these special action commandos because that personnel of these special action troops did not have anything to do actually with the SS, but came from various departments of the Executive, in particular, from the police. This figure of 26,524 as members of the SS must refer to members of offices and units who weren't stationed in the police department, but who, on the other hand, weren't fighting at the front, either, but who were located in the Reich territory.
Q Witness, will you next turn to page 28 of this document, which shows how the 39,415 described on page 24 as being members of the Head Offices of the Waffen SS are employed.
It starts, SS Head Office, 9,349; Waffen SS men engaged in the Race and Resettlement Office of the SS, 2,689. That was the office headed by Himmler which yesterday you said had nothing to do with the Waffen SS at a. And then, third, is SS Economic and Administration Head Office;WVHA that is, is it not--24,019 Waffen SS men. Personal Staff of the Reichsfuehrer SS, 673; SS Personnel Head Office 170; Head Office, SS Law Courts, 599; Office of the SS Obergruppenfuehrer Heisameier, 593; Reich Commissioner for Consolidation of German Folkdom, 304; Reich Commissioner for the Consolidation of the German Folkdom, Die Volksdeutsche Mittelstelle Office, 987, making a total of 39,415 men this hideous network of Himmler's machinery of terror, does it not?
A I do not believe that is shown by this. Yesterday I described in detail that the various leading departments did not have a unified supreme command. If for instance, in this case of the various leading departments, members of the Waffen SS appear, then this is to be traced to the fact that those serving there were called up into service with the Waffen SS because their positions had become unnecessary, and they were thus removed from the reach of the armed forces.
Q All those men were carried on the strength of the Waffen SS; they were members of the Waffen SS; they were Waffen SS uniforms, and they were paid by the Waffen SS. That is so, is it not? as that did not make them members of the growing organization but, as was often the case in war, they merely denned the uniform and, accordingly, they were paid. If I look at page 28 of this document, I see the SS Economic and Chief Administrative Departments, and I find the figure listed of 24,091 who were supposed to be members of the Waffen SS. Then I shall have to say that in connection that we are here probably exclusively concerned with guards in concentration camps, and that shows that these men, as so-called nominal members of the Waffen SS, were attached to the Chief Administrative and Economic Department in reality they had nothing to do with the Waffen SS.
MR. ELWYN JONES: If Your Lordship pleases, I submit that the document speaks, for itself, and I have no further questions.
THE PRESIDENT: The Tribunal would like to have translations of these two documents that you have referred to.
MR ELWYN JONES: If Your Lordship please, they will be put in.
COLONEL SMIRNOV: My Lord, I do not wish to subject the witness to a detailed examination, I would like merely for you to allow me to put one single question to him upon a matter which he dealt with yesterday and in connection with a very short document--a few sentences only. May I do so?
THE PRESIDENT: Yes. BY COLONEL SMIRNOV: members of the SS? them to wear uniform? Did I correctly understand you? whom he named yesterday as among the honorary members of the organization. I would like to read this very short document into the record, I quote:
"22 July 1944. Berlin, 37 Wilhelmstrasse.
THE PRESIDENT: Is it 1944 or 1940
COLONEL SMIRNOV: 1940, my Lord. This a new document which is USSR 512. It was found by the army in the Berlin archives. I quote:
"My dear Himmler: I was highly pleased to learn of my promotion by the Fuehr to the rank of Obergruppenfuehrer of the SS. You may know my attitude to your SS and how greatly delighted I was by their creation, which was the fruit of your work. I shall always consider it a special honor to belong to this proud corps of the Fuehrer, which is of decisive importance for the future of our great German Empire. I remain your faithful friend, Joachim von Ribbentrop." BY COLONEL SMIRNOV; the fact that those members of the SS whom you called honorary members were actually promoted by Himmler according to his estimation of their activity?
yesterday. I said that it is typical for the honarary leaders that they did not actually come from the SS as such; that is to say, they had not done any duty in the SS for a number of years like all the other men, but at some stage and quite suddenly they were given a high rank and awarded SS uniforms, without in-
Q No, witness, I am asking you something quite different. You are not answering my question. I asked you if it was not a fact that Himmler promoted the so-called honorary members according to his estimation of their activity?
A Yes, that is correct, insofar as it was typical of Himmler's policy that personalities who were holding certain positions of power were awarded the right to wear the SS uniform, and those are the honorary leaders.
COLONEL SMIRNOV: I have no further questions to put to the witness, Mr. President.
DR. SEIDL: As Defense Counsel for Defendant Frank. Mr. President, this morning the Prosecution submitted a document GB 568, D-1926. The subject of that document is the files of the Bavarian Ministry of Justice. It deals with the death of prisoners in protective custody in the concentration camp at Dachau. I ask for permission to read the record Figure 12 of that document, which has not been read by the Prosecution. document which I applied for six months ago and which could not be found. The portions of this document read by the Prosecution may create the impression that the statement by the defendant Frank in the witness box with reference to this question may not be correct. Figure 12, however shows-
THE PRESIDENT: Whom are you applying on behalf of, Frank?
DR. SEIDL: I make the application on behalf of the defendant Frank.
THE PRESIDENT: I think, on page 10 of the English copy and with the heading (12), the two top paragraphs were read this morning.
DR. SEIDL: Only the two first sentences of paragraph (2) were read. The remaining sentences were not read. The third paragraph was not read either.
THE PRESIDENT: Very well, Dr. Seidl, you may read what you want to read.
Dr. SEIDL: I shall then quote under Figure 12 a note for the files concerning Dachau concentration camp.
The proposal of the State Minister of the Interior that the inquiry pending at the public prosecution at the Provincial Court Munich 11, into the death of the prisoners Handschuch, Frantz and Katz, who were in protective custody, be quashed, was the subject of a debate during the meeting of the Council of Ministers of the 5th Dec 1933.
As a result, the State Minister of Justice communicated the following to the undersigned official : the Dachau concentration camp are to be continued with all determination. The facts are to be cleared up with the utmost speed. If necessary the provincial police are to be brought in to help. Any attempts to hush up the case must be opposed by the means laid down. cial Court, Munich 11, was instructed, in accordance with the decision of the Council of Ministers, to continue the proceedings immediately and with all energy and to bring about the clearing up of the incidents as soon as possible. He will apply for Court investigations and see to their being completed rapidly--in the case of Franz and Katz immediately, and in the case of Handschunch after the arrival of the files from the political police, who have been requested to return them. He (the public prosecutor) has been instructed to keep the State Ministry of Justice informed about the course of the proceedings and to produce the files with an attached report about the result of the investigation and with the intended further action in the case, after the completion of the investigation. The public prosecutor at the Court of Appeal in Munich has been notified and instructed that he also for his part, is to pay particular attention to the proceedings. The preliminary investigations will probably be conducted by Provincial Court Counselor Kissner, the district of Dachau being his sphere of competence.
The liaison man with the Political Police, 1st public prosecutor Stepp, was instructed, according to orders, to communicate the decision of the Council of Ministers to the commander of the Political Police Himmler and to the chief of the Bavarian Political Police.
DR. SEIDL: Thank you, Mr. President. BY DR. PELCKMANN:
Q Mr. Witness, once again, I shall come back to the document which has just been read out by Mr. Seidl. When this document was put to you, you had pointed out that there was an instruction and an affair which took place very early in 1933. During the interrogation, you, yourself, said in the course of your investigation in later years, hushing-up of matters was discovered by you. It is for that reason I would like to ask you once more, is it correct that you in the course of your investigation in later years and as soon as you came against cases of hushing-up, you fought against such procedure with all determination?
A That was just one of our main activities. We were fighting against those cases of hushing-up which cropped up in the course of proceedings which were being carried out. Repeatedly, in various camps, we were able to have facts ascertained by our commissions indicating that such hushingup cases did exist, and in just such cases did we hold that guilty party responsible. against such typos of crimes ? system did not exist yet. Responsibility for the carrying out of such criminal proceedings was with the Judge Advocate department of the general legal system as becomes apparent from this document. It was their task to hold the guilty men responsible in such cases. which is the case of the horrible shooting of transports carried out by the accompanying jobe.
You had to define an attitude toward them.
I have noticed you had not quite been able to complete your statement because I believe that you, according to your present impression, wanted to say something. Would you like to do that now?
A Yes. I wanted to say that here we are concerned with the transport and that here we are concerned with accompanied doings; what I said about guards was with reference to those guards in camps, that is to say those sentries who were posted on watch towers outside the tent carrying out guard duty, and who, after having completed their guard duty, returned to their billet, men, therefore, who had nothing to do with the goings-on inside the camps. In case of doubt, such transports were carried out by members of the Commandant and the staffs. the strength of the SS on the 30th of June, 1934, and I regret that the document is not visible on my copy, I should like to put to you the figure of 794,000 members of the SS. In 1944, Witness Brill told us yesterday, of higher figures, approximately 900,000 and on up to a million. Since Witness Brill is no longer available, I should like to ask you if the difference may be attributed to the fact that the figure mentioned by Witness Brill also included those who had fallen and therefore, was not an incorrect statement on the part of Witness Brill? because from the system, the legal system and my information concerning the strength of the SS, I know that the statement by Witness Brill corresponds to the facts stated by the defense counsel. It is a fact that the statement of witness Brill includes the losses suffered by the Waffen-SS. Those figures contained in this document here must be increased by that figure which in the course of the war was lost in the way of men and leaders, low-ranking leaders of the Waffen-SS, which would then enable you to draw your conclusions regard-ing the real strength of the Waffen-SS.
offices. The final total is 39,415 members of the SS. Do you still have the document before you? ic and Administrative Leading Department, which was responsible for the administration of the entire concentration camp system was 34,091 persons. Does this mean persons who were carrying out purely clerical work? Were there in fact 24,000 clerical workers in that department? What does that figure mean? was an extremely inflated organization which particularly, as the name indicates, had at its disposal a large organization of firms and industries. All the members were formerly attached to the Administrative Economic Chief Department. In order to make their position clear, that is to say, keep them free from compulsory service in the armed forces, they were drawn into the Waffen-SS as a matter of form. the guards should be counted into that figure?
A I had not finished my answer to that question. The guards in the concentration camps and the entire personnel in concentration camps were also in group Dora personnel of the Chief Administrative and Economic Department from the point of view of organization, and in as far as that is concerned, they were exclusively under Pohl's jurisdiction. I assumed that the figure of those guards is included in the figure of 24,091.
Q. Please would you look at the figure of 987 of the SS attached to the Reich Commissioner for the Strengthening of German Nationalism, German National Central Department. That is merely an example, but were these 987 men the only employees of that leading department ?
A. I know from my own experience as SS judge that the department called Reich Commission for the Strengthening of German Nationalism had at its disposal thousands of people who, as I said yesterday, were civil servants and were in no way connected with the SS. That figure of 987 members of the SS can be explained just as all the other figures can. They became members of the SS for the same reason, that of being medically unfit for active service, and had to be accommodation in an armed competent unit in order not too be called up. No organic ties of those persons with the organization of the SS existed in any case, but there are merely technical reasons which I have described which led to their being taken over by the SS.
Q. Well then, these statistics which are before us contain approximately 900,000 members of the SS. Is it correct, Mr Witness, that the statistics s whos that the system of concentration camps employed only about 25,000 members of the SS by comparison ?
A. For the time of June 1944, which is the date of this document, that is the correct proportion of concentration camp men in comparison to the total strength of the SS which is clearly evident from this document.
DR. PELCKMAMM: May I now submit to year Lordship the report, the document which I unfortunately did not have at my disposal this morning. BY DR. PELCKMANN:
Q. Mr. Witness, I will show it to you. Would you mind having a look You know this document ?
A. Yes, that document became known to me during the last 12 months.
Q. On page 46 of that document there appears testimony of a detainee whose initials are "E.H." , or who is referred to by those initials. It gives the impression as if that testimony, given before American interrogating authorities, was given -THE PRESIDENT (Interposing) Is this document in evidence ?
DR. PELCKMANN: Your Lordship, it isn't in my document book. I am merely putting it to the witness, but if your Lordship desires to see the book, I am submitting it to the Tribunal now.
THE PRESIDENT: Well, what is the book ? I don't know what it is. What is it. Where does it come from ?
DR. PELCKMANN: Well, I beg to be permitted to ask the witness just one question with reference to this.
THE PRESIDENT: No, no, you may not do that until you have told me where the book comes from. Where does the book come from ?
DR. PELCKMANN: It comes from the library here. I just got it from the library. It is an official publication -
THE PRESIDENT: I see.
DR. PELCKMANN: -- of a Colonel Quinn. On page 46 there is the testimony of this detainee, and it would give the impression that that testimony had been given before interrogating authorities of the American army. BY DR, PELCKMANN:
Q. Can you say anything with reference to that testimony which describes atrocious conditions and crimes ?
A. Yes, I can give you information on that subject.
THE PRESIDENT: Dr. Pelckmann, the document isn't yet in evidence, and you are trying to contradict it. what is the good of contradicting a document which isn't in evidence ? We have never seen it.
DR. PELCKMANN: If your Lordship would hear the witness, then you would discover that I am not trying to contradict the document.
THE PRESIDENT: Do you want to offer the document in evidence then ?
DR. PELCKMANN: First of all, I should like to put it to the witness and then if I get your permission I should like very much to offer it in evidence.
THE PRESIDENT: You offer it in evidence and you are relying upon the document, are you ? Are you relying upon it or are you not ?
DR. PELCKMANN: As far as I can quote from page 46, yes
THE PRESIDENT: If you want to put it in for the purpose of relying on page 46, you can do that.
DR. PELCKMANN: And the supplemental testimony, the entire testimony signed "E.H.".
THE PRESIDENT: Go on. BY DR. PELCKMANN:
Q. Mr Witness, you understood my question ?
A. Yes.
Q. Please will you answer it.
A. This testimony "E.H." is the testimony of a female detainee, Eleanora Hodis from Auschwitz and was made late in Autumn 1944 under oath before an investigating commission of the Chief Department SS court. It was the institution of proceedings against Graber, head of the Political Department at Auschwitz, and various other participants, proceedings instituted for murder of detainees, and these people were indicted for murder in 2,000 cases up the situation. The female detainee, Eleanor a Hodis, declared herself willing to assist the investigating commission of the SS court with her testimony, provided the court would guarantee her life. That guarantee was given, and it was possible to get her out of Auschwitz and transferred to Munich. In Munich, at the date given , she submitted the testimony, giving these gruesome details which formed the basis of proceeding's instituted against Hoess and many other collaborators. However, because of the collapse the proceedings could not be brought to an end.
Q. Is it correct, therefore Mr. "Witness, that the conditions which are described here existed in the concentration camp of Dachau which give the impression that they had to be included on this book, because after all, this book deals with the concentration camp of Dachau.
A. No, that is not correct. The testimony given by the witness Hodis refers entirely to the atrocious and gruesome conditions at Auschwitz, and has nothing whatever to do with the camp of Dachau.
DR. PELCKMANN: Finally, Your Lordship, I merely beg to be all wed to refer to Document D-959 which has been submitted by the British Delegation.
THE PRESIDENT: What is the number of the other document ?
DR. PELCKMANN: The document SS-Dachau -
THE PRESIDENT: You can give it a number afterwards. Don't delay now.
DR. PELCKMANN: I will merely look up the number of documents I have submitted up to now and then I will give you the number. of that document, they said that it was regretted that the document could be submitted only so very late. In other word's, it ought to have been submitted during the submission-of evidence. We are all conscious of that fact. At this stage, with reference to the numerous statements regarding the activity of the Waffen SS in Czechoslovakia, I cannot now define my attitude and I too, regret that the document arrived so very late. However, I believe that it has now been admitted and that the Tribunal is cognizant of it, and I think I ought to have the possibility, therefore of referring to the details which are brought up in support of the case for the Prosecute because after all I should be given the opportunity to define my attitude and for that purpose I should like to have a certain amount of time.
THE PRESIDENT: Dr. Pelckmann, the Tribunal thinks that you must go on with your case and that you can't be given further time. The Tribunal has said that they are bound to take judicial notice of the document under Article 21 and this witness has told us he had never heard of the two incident. I think, to which counsel drew his attention.
DR. PELCKMANN: I am afraid I didn't understand the translation of the last part of what you said, Mr. President.
THE PRESIDENT: I said that you must go on with your case and that the Tribunal had admitted that document under Article 21, and that with reference to the two incidents to which counsel for the Prosecution has referred, this witness has said that he has never heard of them.
DR. PELCKMANN: Then I have no further questions to this witness.
DR. GAWLIK (Counsel for the SD): "With reference to the document 960, sub ted during cross-examination, I have a few questions to put to the witness.
THE PRESIDENT: Which document?
DR. GAWLIK: D-960, Exhibit 569. BY DR. GAWLIK:
Q Mr. Witness, I shall once again have the document shown to you.
(witness handed document)
Was the SD responsible for dealing with this letter?
A That question must be answered with no. It becomes apparent from the heading of the letter that the letter is addressed to the Security Police and SD at Strassburg. As to the SD, that is a misleading description, as it is merely a usage of language, whereas there is no connection with the organization of the SD and it is for that reason that the chief of the Security Police and the
DR. GAWLIK: I have no further questions. BY THE TRIBUNAL (Mr. Biddle): camps. You said your investigation began in 1943."What time in the year 1943 did your investigation begin of the concentration camps? recollect, either in June or July.
Q How many camps did you investigate? were traces of suspicion investigating commissions were employed.
Q Witness, listen very carefully and answer the questions. All I asked you was how many camps have you investigated? cannot at this instant give you the exact figure. It was different at various times.
Q You mean seven to ten in all, altogether seven to ten?
Q Did that include labor training camps also?
(mother camps) and from there the investigation spread, from the mother camp where the commission was stationed to the Working camp.
Q That included Auschwitz and Dachau? sitting.
Q And Treblinka?
Q Did you investigate any camps outside of Germany? genbosch in Holland and there proceedings were carried on against a camp commandant which ended in very severe penalties.
Q How many investigators were you using at any one time? In that connection, the majority of these people were not taken from the legal system but were experts from the RSHA, from the Criminal Police Department.
Q Now, how many cases did you recommend for court action? end of the war, that is to say, two hundred sentences were passed which were actually carried out. recommend for action. You made recommendations, did you not? about through the investigations.
Q Where did you send your reports? Did you send them directly to the courts was completed and when the case was ready for prosecution, together with the order to prosecute, to the court itself, which would then run the actual trial and pronounce sentence.
Q and where did copies of the reports go? Did a copy go to the Minister of the Interior?
Q You mean the minister of the Interior was not concerned with any of this?
which, therefore, came under the legal and penal system of the SS and, as far as that is concerned, the Ministry of the Interior was not included.
Q You mean you were only investigating cases that involved the SS? ferred to SS members and also police members, that is to say, members of the Security Police and they, for the purpose of being sentenced, were brought before the courts. You said they were very bad. What were they; what was going on in the camps? regular system of killing which was in use. you thought there must be an order to that effect, although you never found it, is that right?
A Yes, Your Lordship. That fact, the fact that an order from above had to be in existence became obvious and became known to us at the end of 1944.
Q Now, why did you think that there was a regular system of killing? was it because there were so many killings? possible through the cooperation of the concentration camp commandant with the criminal detainees. volved in these killings? investigated by me and criminal proceedings were started against a total of five commandants.
Q Five out of how many? there were twelve large concentration camps in all, the so-called mother camps.
is that right? scale. Did you find any evidence of any of the gas chambers which added to your belief that it might be a large-scale operation? You found some evidence of gas chambers? Auschwitz, that is the case, your Lordship, that I mentioned before, with reference to Eleanora Hodis. used in Auschwitz? these ten concentration camps? Did you find out how many persons had died in the different camps? Did you get statistics? had to work for and lock for all the material ourselves but we had no survey. BY THE PRESIDENT: the five commandants?
A It was the commandant of Buchenwald, Koch; the commandant at Lublin, whose name I cannot at the moment remember and the commandant of the camp Herzogenbosch, whose name I just remember now, a certain Gruenwald. Further investigations were carried out against the commandant of Oranienburg, Loritz and furthermore, against Keindel the later commandant. These proceedings were discontinued, however, because proof was furnished that at the time when Keindel was camp commandant no killings had occurred.
Q Did you prosecute Hoess? the testimony of the protective custody detainee who had just been mentioned.
Q What crime did you charge Hoess with?
A May I please make this matter clear. Proceedings against Hoess had not advanced sufficiently to serve an indictment against him. It was still in the process of preliminary investigation. Material had to be collected first. You must have known what crimes you were investigating. What were the crimes you were investigating against Hoess? and unknown numbers of persons detained in the concentration camp of Auschwitz. stated in document EC-168, the document in which Himmler said that the number of deaths in the concentration camps must be reduced?
A I had never seen that document before. It was the first time that I saw it when it was submitted by the defendant's counsel here but in the course of investigations my judges had confirmed to me that instruction of that type had passed through the camps and were actually observed. concentration camps 70,000 had died. investigations whether you found, you ascertained those facts, namely that 70,000 out of 136,000 had died?
DR. PELCKMANN: I have no questions, your Lordship, but I should like to be permitted to make a suggestion. the chief department of the legal SS system. They had a certain Mr. Breithaupt who in the meantime had died. In the first place the Commission. have referred to this head of the department. are still alive and the man who can answer all these questions which your Lordship and Mr. Biddle have put is the witness Morgen, who can answer them in detail and if I may permit -
THE PRESIDENT: You have got some more witnesses to call, have you not?
DR. PELCKMANN: During the entire trial I have attempted to make the witness Hinderfeld as superflous as possible. I have succeeded in putting the questions intended for witness Hinderfeld to the other witnesses I have called. If the High Tribunal -
THE PRESIDENT: I do not understand what the object of this speech is. and examined by the Tribanal. Now he can retire and you can go on with your case.
DR. PELCKMANN: He can retire?
THE PRESIDENT: Yes, and the Tribunal will adjourn.
(A recess was taken).