"Presented to the state ministers with the request that they take note. The note of the first public prosecutor, Dr. Stepp. regarding the carrying out of his instructions is attached with the request that note be taken.
"By order of Ministerial Counselor Doebig, I communicated to the Reichsfuehrer SS Himmler, the decision taken yesterday by the Council of Ministers concerning the case of Hadschurch etc. The Reichsfuehrer SS told me that the matter greatly concerned the chief of staff of the SA, Reich Minister Roehm. He (Himmler) had to discuss the matter with the latter first." by Dr. Stepp.
"The Dachau camp is a camp for prisoners who are in protective custody and who were imprisoned on political grounds. The incidents concerned are of a political nature and under all circumstances the political authorities must decide first about them. To my mind they are not suited to be dealt with by the legal authorities. This is my opinion as Chief of Staff and also as a Reich Minister. who is interested in the Reich not suffering politically because of the proceedings in question.
"I shall get the Reichsfuehrer SS to issue an order that no investigating authorities may enter the camp for the time being and that people in the camp may also not be interrogated for the time being."
Then there is a note:
"The Court of Appeals Public Prosecution Munich, was instructed by a direction from the Minister to refrain for the time being from making an application for the opening of preliminary investigations." Then follows the next document, document 13, a letter to the Public Prosecution as to the death of the prisoners. Wilhelm Frantz and Dr. Katz.
"With regard to the above mentioned matter, I have as instructed, requested the Bavarian Political Police to clear up the matter further in conjunction with the Commandant's office of the concentration camp of Dachau and to endeavor to find out the persons who are suspected of having been the culprits. In this request I mentioned also that I have not yet received the legally confiscated instruments of suicide (belt and braces) of the dead men.
"The Political police have apparently transmitted the files without any Aug-7-RT-M-9-2 Karr written direction to the Political Department of the concentration camp of Dachau.
The first paragraph of this letter reads:
"The latest application for production of evidence from the Public Prosecution Munich 11 shows what far-fetched means are employed in order to saddle the concentration camp of Dachau with allegedly perpetrated crimes."
"In the second paragraph of the letter regret is expressed that the two dead men were able by their suicide to escape impending punishment for smuggling letter The third paragraph refers to the confiscation and reads:
"After the two corpses had been dissected, according to law, and had been released, the commandant's staff had no further interest in the preservation of the instruments with which they had hanged themselves. The commandant's staff do not belong to those objectionable Kulturmrnscher (cultured people) who preserve such articles as souvenirs, as was done in America recently in the Dillinger case "The Leetter is signed on behalf of the camp commandant by SS Obersturmbannfuehrer Lippert."
Dachau which shows that the request of the Oberstaatsanwalt arose from the impartial observation of his official duty and then the file closes with this entry, 27 September, 1934, Public Prosecution, letter from the Oberstaatsanwalt to the Generalstaatsamwalt at the Court of Appeals Munich.
"Subject: Death of the prisoners in protective custody Wilhelm Frantz and Dr. Katz in the concentration camp Dachau.
"I have stopped the proceedings, as the investigations have not produced sufficient grounds for the assumption of outside guilt in the deaths of the two prisoners in protective custody." BY MR. ELWYN JONES:
Q. Well now, I have taken some time to read that document as that is a characteristic illustration of the fact that the SA and SS abominations in the camps were protected by the highest authorities of the Third Reich, is that not so ?
A. I must say to this document that it is from the year 1933, at a time when the concentration camp Dachau was not manned exclusively by SS men. This document indicates that the prosecution of the Court of Appeals in Munich had notice that some persons in protective custody had been murdered.
Q. Are you suggesting that conditions improved after the SS men took complete charge of running the camp?
A. I should like to say that these were individual cases from the year 1933, which are contained in this document. This document does not, however indicate general conditions in the concentration camps, particularly in the coming years.
Q. Did you know that the Waffen SS was making quite a profitable business out of killing people in concentration camps ? Did you know that ?
A. I want you to look at the document D-960, which will be Exhibit GB 568. It is a very short document, this one. It is headed:
"Waffen SS, Natzweiler Concentration Camp, Commandant's office -24 March 1943, Concentration Camp Natzweiler. camp, costs amounting to 127 Reichsmarks, five pfennig arose. The Commandant's office of the Natzweiler Concentration Camp requests the early dispatch of the above mentioned sum."
The tarrif for killing was very low in Natzweiler, wasn't it, six marks 38 pfennig for each dead man? Did you know that monies were being paid, to the Waffen SS for activities of that kind ?
A. No. As I understand it this document dues not show that either. The concentration camp commandatur here uses the stamp "Waffen SS".
I must refer to what I said yesterday, that the term "Waffen SS" is misleading to the extent that the concentration camp system was an independent police arrangement. This document seems to support my statement, since it shows that this terrible bill here was sent to the Security Police again to an executive organ.
Q. Just a moment. Assuming that the Security Police paid this bill, where would the money have gone to ? It would have gone back to Natzweiler. What would have happened to it. Would it have been credited to the funds of the Waffen SS or not?
A. The Commandatur of the concentration camps, including Natzweiler, settled their bills with the Reich and not with the SS. I cannot say how it was used and for what purpose it was spent.
Q. You have no knowledge of the financial arrangements of these camps vis a vis the Waffen SS, have you ? If you have not that suffices for me for the moment.
A. No, I know from my activity in the SS court a little about the economic subordination of the concentration camps and as to this point, I know that the commandaturs of concentration camps settled their accounts directly with the agencies of the German Reich when not connected with other treasuries of agencies of the Waffen SS , as such.
Q. Witness, please, now you said in your testimony that the guards in concentration camps had not committed crimes, that whoever else was responsible, Pohl and one or two others, certainly it was not the SS guards. Were you serious when you said that, witness ?
A. In order to clarify a misunderstanding, I should like to make it clear here that by guards, in the sense of my testimony, I meant only those persons who guarded a concentration camp from the outside in contrast to these members of the concentration camp on the commandatur's staff who guarded the internal installations of the camp.
Q. But both those categories of guards were SS men, were they not ?
A. As I have already said they belonged to the so-called nominal Waffen SS without having anything Organically to do with it.
Q. I shall return to that point in a moment. you a picture of the humanity and ethical attitude of SS guards. I am using a phrase which you used yourself vis a vis the SS. It is GB 57. It is a report this time from a Dutch source of the evacuation of the Rehmsdorff camp to Theresianstadt.
The first page is a statement by Peter Langhorst, who says :
"I am an ex-political prisoner and I have been detained in various prisons and concentration camps, finally in the Rehmsdorff damp.
"At the approach of the Allied armies this camp was evacuated and the prisoners about 2900 men, were put on transport from Rehmsdorff to Theresianstadt.
"Mostly these prisoners were Czechs, Poles , Russians , and Hungarian Jews, while they were only a few Dutchmen among them.
"Of these prisoners only some 500 actually reached Theresianstadt; the others were simply killed off during the transport by the so-called 'shot in the neck.
"The corposes were thrown into mass graves which were filled up afterwards," Then I need not trouble you with the rest of the statement but you see a further statement with regard to that matter by Baron von Lamsweerde of Amsterdam, who was on this transport who says, at the end of the second paragraph:
"On the 12th of November 1944, I was Imprisoned in the concentration camp Rehmsdorff where I stayed until my escape on April 20, 1945. At the approach of the Allied Forces, the Camp at Rehmsdorff was evacuated in great haste and the political prisoners of this camp were transported to the camp Theresianstadt.
"At first the prisoners were transported by train and in goods-vans. We arrived by train at Marienbad, where, for causes I do not know, we had a delay of about one week. The vans with the prisoners were kept standing at the station. In the course of that week Allied bombers attacked the Marienbad station and in the confusion sons 1000 prisoners escaped into the surrounding woods. Naturally the entire local service (the S.S., Volkssturm, and Hitler Jugend) was set to work to recapture the escaped prisoners and practically all prisoners, who of course were their camp-clothes and could easily be recognized, were recaptured. These prisoners, about a thousand men, were led back in groups to Marienbad station and there they were killed by the SS guards by a shot in the neck. As both engines of the train had been wrecked during the air attack, the prisoners had to walk all the way back from Marienbad to Theresienstadt. Many among them were unable to go so far, and fell down along the road, totally exhausted; without exception these prisoners were murdered by the guards by a shot in the neck. That evening their bodies were removed by lorry and buried in mass-graves in the woods." And he says he thinks that he could identify where it was. "I am fully prepare to assist in tracing them. When the transport started I heard the SS guards saying that the total number of prisoners amounted to 2775. Only some of these prisoners have reached Theresienstadt. The others were murdered during the transport. Near Lobositz, about 7 kilometers from Theresienstadt, I myself escaped. The leader of the transport was the SS Oberscharfuehrer, Schmidt, one of the henchmen of Buchanwald, who also there behaved in a most scandalous way towards the prisoners, and who was known to be a sadist." decency? had the characteristics of SS members. I said that our investigations showed that the criminal complex of crimes in concentration camps were committed by members of the commandanteurs and that we found no evidence that the guards had any part in them. a report to the Ministry of the Interior of the Czechoslovak Republic. I want you to turn to page 3 of the report: "Crimes committed by the members of the Allgemeine SS and the Waffen SS."
"The crimes committed by the members of the SS troops against the Czechoslovak and foreign citizens on the .....
THE PRESIDENT: Mr. Elwyn Jones, isn't it rather late to put in documents of this sort which are general reports by the governments of allied countries? The case has been already fully made by the prosecution and to put in a new document of this sort, which is only a report of an allied country, seems to the Tribunal to be an unusual course to take,
MR. ELWYN JONES: With great respect, My Lord, I sub nit that the prosecution is entitled to put in documents of this kind in rebuttal of the sort of testimony that this witness is giving. The conception that a witness should solemnly say that SS guards committed no atrocities was one which certainly did not even occur to the prosecution, and in face of testimony of that kind I submit that the prosecution is well entitled to put in documents which do not deal with individual cases, which might possibly be objectionable to the Tribunal, but on the whole mass of testimony, I submit that until the very last moment the prosecution is entitled to put in such documents, regrettable though it is, perhaps, that they have not been put in before, but I do submit that the prosecution is entitled to put them in. If your Lordship pleases, if I might add a further comment to your Lordship's inquiry, the defense have, after all, produced over a hundred thousand affidavits and I do submit that in those circumstances, in view of that mountain of evidence, it is only right that there should rest upon the record the authority of statements submitted on behalf of the prosecution.
THE PRESIDENT: What is your submission, with reference to the construction of Article 21, with reference to this document?
MR. ELWYN JONES: If your Lordship pleases, I submit that the terms of Article 21 make it mandatory upon the Tribunal to accept reports of this kind by governments, which are submitted by the prosecution.
THE PRESIDENT: 'Which are the official words to which you refer?
MR. ELWYN JONES: The second sentence, "The Tribunal shall also take judicial notice of official governmental documents and reports of United Nations, including the acts and documents of the committees set up in the various allied countries for the investigation of war crimes and the records and findings of military and other tribunals of any United Nations."
Now this document, my Lord, has a certificate from the Czechoslovak Minister of the Interior on the face of it, certifying that it is a State Document, within the meaning of Article 21, and it bears the signature of the Minister of the Interior himself, so that I submit that quite clearly within the terms of Article 21 it is properly admissible and in that respect that the Tribunal should accept it.
THE PRESIDENT: Was there any committee or commission which drew up this document?
MR. ELWYN JONES: It is a report of the Czechoslovakian Ministry of the Interior itself; it is a report of the State Department.
THE PRESIDENT: Report to whom?
MR. ELWYN JONES: Furthermore, My Lord, my learned friend, Lt. Col. Griffith-Jones, draws by attention to article 19 of the Charter: "The Tribunal shall not be bound by technical rules of evidence. It shall adopt and apply to the greatest possible extent expeditious and non-technical procedure and shall admit any evidence that it deems to have probative value." I do submit that even if you were to find, and I find it hard to think that you would, that this is not a document within the meaning of Article 21, it is admissible under Article 19.
THE PRESIDENT: Do you want to say anything, Dr. Pelckmann?
DR. PELCKMANN: I believe, your Lordship, the decision of the Tribunal on this document should be the same as on the two documents which we attempted in vain to introduce yesterday. Whether this document falls under Article 21, I cannot judge. The Tribunal will decide that. But I refer to the other point of view which your Lordship has already mentioned. It is very late that these documents are submitted now. Article 21 is to be interpreted to mean that such documents can be submitted during the presentation of the case of the prosecution. The prosecution case is closed and it can only be submitted to the witness but then the defense, which deals with hundreds, perhaps thousands of cases, then the defense must have an opportunity to comment on it. This does not deal only with the credibility of the witness but is actually the presentation of new evidence for the prosecution. The defense must have an opportunity to answer it.
I do not believe that it falls under Article 21. Otherwise the trial would be extended indefinitely.
THE PRESIDENT: The Tribunal will adjourn and we will sit again at 2:00 o'clock.
(A recess was taken until 1400 hours.)
(The hearing reconvened at 1400 hours, 7 August 1946)
THE PRESIDENT: Mr. Elwyn Jones, The Tribunal will take judicial notice of the document which you were submitting under Article 21. They don't think that you need deal with it at great length.
MR. ELWYN JONES: Very well, My Lord. The Document D-959 will be Exhibit GB 571. BY MR. ELWYN JONES:
Q. Witness, have you any knowledge of the part played by SS-units in the arrest and ill treatment of the students of Prague on November 17, 1939 ?
A. No. About that subject I cannot testify. Just the fact of the participation is now only becoming known to me for the first time.
Q. You had no knowledge of the participation of the 6th SS Totenkopf Standarte in that, did you ?
A. No.
MR. ELWYN JONES: I am referring, My Lord, to the Czechoslovakia Report, USSR 60. BY MR. ELWN JONES:
Q. You say you had no knowledge of that ?
A. No, I had no knowledge.
Q. This report refers further to reprisal measures against civilians suspected of contact with the partisans, in which the SS took part. Do you have any knowledge of SS troops taking part in reprisal measures against civilians ?
A. I can testify to that insofar as it is known to me, in which manner, in which fashion the Waffen SS was being employed. I know that the Waffen SS, the only Waffen SS that we can be concerned with in this case was fighting at the front.
Q. I want you to look at the last paragraph but one on Page 4 of Exhibit D 959 -- the fourth paragraph down in the English text. "On May 4, 1945. after having plundered the village of Javorisko, in the district of Litovel the SS burned it down. During this execution the SS troops shot in the nape or killed in the burning houses all the male inhabitants of the village from the age of 15 to 70 years. Were with children after having been ill treated were driven away. The execution, at which 38 men lost their lives, took place because the inhabitants of the village were suspected of hiding partisans." Have you any knowledge of that act or an action of that kind that the SS took part in?
A. No. Such actions never became known to me. Obviously, we are here concerned with the last fight for Prague.
Q. I want you to turn to some further evidence about the ill treatment by SS guards of transports of prisoners from concentration camps. The fifth paragraph down on page 5 of the report refers to 312 persons being beaten to death or shot or died, and their bodies buried in a coal pit. You see it stated there that the beatings and killings were done by SS guards. It is very much like the Dutch report, is it not ? And then there follows in the last section, crimes committed during the Revolution of May, 1945, further accounts of SS atrocities. Now, witness, I want you to look at a new document, D 878 which will be GB 572 which is a report from the Scientific Statistical Institute of the Reichsfuehrer SS on the composition of the SS. I want you to look, if you will, at the third parge, a page market page 1. That sets out -- I am sorry, My Lord, I haven't a translation of this, but I think the entries will speak for themselves. That is headed "Total strength of the SS as on the 30th of June 1944". You will see it shows "Allgemeine SS" and the translation, I think, is excluding those members who, at the moment, are serving as reserves of the Waffen SS, "Nicht einberufen", Total called up 66,614.
THE PRESIDENT: 64,000 BY MR, ELWYN JONES:
Q. 64,000, Called up in the Wehrmacht, 115,908. Called up to the labor front, 722.
In miscellaneous duties, 19,254, a total of 200,498 of the Allgemeine SS. Can you tell the Tribunal whether those not called up among the 64,000 odd were performing police duties, or were some of these performing police duties ?
A. In my view the figures which are contained in the document concern members of the General SS who were neither called up nor carrying out any other type of activity -- in other words, who were following their civilian occupations at home. In other words, used in the economic life.
Q. The last category of 19,254 on miscellaneous duties, were those the people who were forming the personnel of the Einsatzkommandos ?
A. That is absolutely out of the question, because the personnel for Einstzkommandos only consisted of a few hundred men. The conception of the general use of the Einstz must refer to some other function which I cannot at the moment touch.
Q. You will see that that page shows the total in the Waffen SS, 594,443. I want youth turn to Page 24-
THE PRESIDENT: Mr. Jones, what is the final total described ?
MR. ELWYN JONES: The total, 794,941.
THE PRESIDENT: What does the second German word mean ?
MR. ELWYN JONES: "Insgesamt", "altogether", My Lord.
THE PRESIDENT: "altogether". I see. BY MR. ELWYN JONES:
Q. You turn to Page 24 and you will see that that total of members of the Waffen SS of 594,443 is divided up into various categories : First, the Feldtruppenteile, which are field units, 368,654. Then the next is, I understand, Recruiting Staff , 21,365. The next category, training and reserve, 127,643. The schools, 10,822. Then other units and offices directly subordinate to SS leadership head office, 26,544. And then in the head office, 39,415 making the grand total of 594,443. That entry of 26,544 other units and offices directly subordinate to SS leadership head office -- who were these men ? Were they the personnel of the Einsatzkommandos ?
A. I beg to repeat the answer I have just given you. We cannot be concerned in this case with the personnel of these special action commandos because that personnel of these special action troops did not have anything to do actually with the SS, but came from various departments of the Executive, in particular, from the police. This figure of 26,524 as members of the SS must refer to members of offices and units who weren't stationed in the police department, but who, on the other hand, weren't fighting at the front, either, but who were located in the Reich territory.
Q Witness, will you next turn to page 28 of this document, which shows how the 39,415 described on page 24 as being members of the Head Offices of the Waffen SS are employed.
It starts, SS Head Office, 9,349; Waffen SS men engaged in the Race and Resettlement Office of the SS, 2,689. That was the office headed by Himmler which yesterday you said had nothing to do with the Waffen SS at a. And then, third, is SS Economic and Administration Head Office;WVHA that is, is it not--24,019 Waffen SS men. Personal Staff of the Reichsfuehrer SS, 673; SS Personnel Head Office 170; Head Office, SS Law Courts, 599; Office of the SS Obergruppenfuehrer Heisameier, 593; Reich Commissioner for Consolidation of German Folkdom, 304; Reich Commissioner for the Consolidation of the German Folkdom, Die Volksdeutsche Mittelstelle Office, 987, making a total of 39,415 men this hideous network of Himmler's machinery of terror, does it not?
A I do not believe that is shown by this. Yesterday I described in detail that the various leading departments did not have a unified supreme command. If for instance, in this case of the various leading departments, members of the Waffen SS appear, then this is to be traced to the fact that those serving there were called up into service with the Waffen SS because their positions had become unnecessary, and they were thus removed from the reach of the armed forces.
Q All those men were carried on the strength of the Waffen SS; they were members of the Waffen SS; they were Waffen SS uniforms, and they were paid by the Waffen SS. That is so, is it not? as that did not make them members of the growing organization but, as was often the case in war, they merely denned the uniform and, accordingly, they were paid. If I look at page 28 of this document, I see the SS Economic and Chief Administrative Departments, and I find the figure listed of 24,091 who were supposed to be members of the Waffen SS. Then I shall have to say that in connection that we are here probably exclusively concerned with guards in concentration camps, and that shows that these men, as so-called nominal members of the Waffen SS, were attached to the Chief Administrative and Economic Department in reality they had nothing to do with the Waffen SS.
MR. ELWYN JONES: If Your Lordship pleases, I submit that the document speaks, for itself, and I have no further questions.
THE PRESIDENT: The Tribunal would like to have translations of these two documents that you have referred to.
MR ELWYN JONES: If Your Lordship please, they will be put in.
COLONEL SMIRNOV: My Lord, I do not wish to subject the witness to a detailed examination, I would like merely for you to allow me to put one single question to him upon a matter which he dealt with yesterday and in connection with a very short document--a few sentences only. May I do so?
THE PRESIDENT: Yes. BY COLONEL SMIRNOV: members of the SS? them to wear uniform? Did I correctly understand you? whom he named yesterday as among the honorary members of the organization. I would like to read this very short document into the record, I quote:
"22 July 1944. Berlin, 37 Wilhelmstrasse.
THE PRESIDENT: Is it 1944 or 1940
COLONEL SMIRNOV: 1940, my Lord. This a new document which is USSR 512. It was found by the army in the Berlin archives. I quote:
"My dear Himmler: I was highly pleased to learn of my promotion by the Fuehr to the rank of Obergruppenfuehrer of the SS. You may know my attitude to your SS and how greatly delighted I was by their creation, which was the fruit of your work. I shall always consider it a special honor to belong to this proud corps of the Fuehrer, which is of decisive importance for the future of our great German Empire. I remain your faithful friend, Joachim von Ribbentrop." BY COLONEL SMIRNOV; the fact that those members of the SS whom you called honorary members were actually promoted by Himmler according to his estimation of their activity?
yesterday. I said that it is typical for the honarary leaders that they did not actually come from the SS as such; that is to say, they had not done any duty in the SS for a number of years like all the other men, but at some stage and quite suddenly they were given a high rank and awarded SS uniforms, without in-
Q No, witness, I am asking you something quite different. You are not answering my question. I asked you if it was not a fact that Himmler promoted the so-called honorary members according to his estimation of their activity?
A Yes, that is correct, insofar as it was typical of Himmler's policy that personalities who were holding certain positions of power were awarded the right to wear the SS uniform, and those are the honorary leaders.
COLONEL SMIRNOV: I have no further questions to put to the witness, Mr. President.
DR. SEIDL: As Defense Counsel for Defendant Frank. Mr. President, this morning the Prosecution submitted a document GB 568, D-1926. The subject of that document is the files of the Bavarian Ministry of Justice. It deals with the death of prisoners in protective custody in the concentration camp at Dachau. I ask for permission to read the record Figure 12 of that document, which has not been read by the Prosecution. document which I applied for six months ago and which could not be found. The portions of this document read by the Prosecution may create the impression that the statement by the defendant Frank in the witness box with reference to this question may not be correct. Figure 12, however shows-
THE PRESIDENT: Whom are you applying on behalf of, Frank?
DR. SEIDL: I make the application on behalf of the defendant Frank.
THE PRESIDENT: I think, on page 10 of the English copy and with the heading (12), the two top paragraphs were read this morning.
DR. SEIDL: Only the two first sentences of paragraph (2) were read. The remaining sentences were not read. The third paragraph was not read either.
THE PRESIDENT: Very well, Dr. Seidl, you may read what you want to read.
Dr. SEIDL: I shall then quote under Figure 12 a note for the files concerning Dachau concentration camp.
The proposal of the State Minister of the Interior that the inquiry pending at the public prosecution at the Provincial Court Munich 11, into the death of the prisoners Handschuch, Frantz and Katz, who were in protective custody, be quashed, was the subject of a debate during the meeting of the Council of Ministers of the 5th Dec 1933.
As a result, the State Minister of Justice communicated the following to the undersigned official : the Dachau concentration camp are to be continued with all determination. The facts are to be cleared up with the utmost speed. If necessary the provincial police are to be brought in to help. Any attempts to hush up the case must be opposed by the means laid down. cial Court, Munich 11, was instructed, in accordance with the decision of the Council of Ministers, to continue the proceedings immediately and with all energy and to bring about the clearing up of the incidents as soon as possible. He will apply for Court investigations and see to their being completed rapidly--in the case of Franz and Katz immediately, and in the case of Handschunch after the arrival of the files from the political police, who have been requested to return them. He (the public prosecutor) has been instructed to keep the State Ministry of Justice informed about the course of the proceedings and to produce the files with an attached report about the result of the investigation and with the intended further action in the case, after the completion of the investigation. The public prosecutor at the Court of Appeal in Munich has been notified and instructed that he also for his part, is to pay particular attention to the proceedings. The preliminary investigations will probably be conducted by Provincial Court Counselor Kissner, the district of Dachau being his sphere of competence.
The liaison man with the Political Police, 1st public prosecutor Stepp, was instructed, according to orders, to communicate the decision of the Council of Ministers to the commander of the Political Police Himmler and to the chief of the Bavarian Political Police.
DR. SEIDL: Thank you, Mr. President. BY DR. PELCKMANN:
Q Mr. Witness, once again, I shall come back to the document which has just been read out by Mr. Seidl. When this document was put to you, you had pointed out that there was an instruction and an affair which took place very early in 1933. During the interrogation, you, yourself, said in the course of your investigation in later years, hushing-up of matters was discovered by you. It is for that reason I would like to ask you once more, is it correct that you in the course of your investigation in later years and as soon as you came against cases of hushing-up, you fought against such procedure with all determination?
A That was just one of our main activities. We were fighting against those cases of hushing-up which cropped up in the course of proceedings which were being carried out. Repeatedly, in various camps, we were able to have facts ascertained by our commissions indicating that such hushingup cases did exist, and in just such cases did we hold that guilty party responsible. against such typos of crimes ? system did not exist yet. Responsibility for the carrying out of such criminal proceedings was with the Judge Advocate department of the general legal system as becomes apparent from this document. It was their task to hold the guilty men responsible in such cases. which is the case of the horrible shooting of transports carried out by the accompanying jobe.
You had to define an attitude toward them.
I have noticed you had not quite been able to complete your statement because I believe that you, according to your present impression, wanted to say something. Would you like to do that now?
A Yes. I wanted to say that here we are concerned with the transport and that here we are concerned with accompanied doings; what I said about guards was with reference to those guards in camps, that is to say those sentries who were posted on watch towers outside the tent carrying out guard duty, and who, after having completed their guard duty, returned to their billet, men, therefore, who had nothing to do with the goings-on inside the camps. In case of doubt, such transports were carried out by members of the Commandant and the staffs. the strength of the SS on the 30th of June, 1934, and I regret that the document is not visible on my copy, I should like to put to you the figure of 794,000 members of the SS. In 1944, Witness Brill told us yesterday, of higher figures, approximately 900,000 and on up to a million. Since Witness Brill is no longer available, I should like to ask you if the difference may be attributed to the fact that the figure mentioned by Witness Brill also included those who had fallen and therefore, was not an incorrect statement on the part of Witness Brill? because from the system, the legal system and my information concerning the strength of the SS, I know that the statement by Witness Brill corresponds to the facts stated by the defense counsel. It is a fact that the statement of witness Brill includes the losses suffered by the Waffen-SS. Those figures contained in this document here must be increased by that figure which in the course of the war was lost in the way of men and leaders, low-ranking leaders of the Waffen-SS, which would then enable you to draw your conclusions regard-ing the real strength of the Waffen-SS.
offices. The final total is 39,415 members of the SS. Do you still have the document before you? ic and Administrative Leading Department, which was responsible for the administration of the entire concentration camp system was 34,091 persons. Does this mean persons who were carrying out purely clerical work? Were there in fact 24,000 clerical workers in that department? What does that figure mean? was an extremely inflated organization which particularly, as the name indicates, had at its disposal a large organization of firms and industries. All the members were formerly attached to the Administrative Economic Chief Department. In order to make their position clear, that is to say, keep them free from compulsory service in the armed forces, they were drawn into the Waffen-SS as a matter of form. the guards should be counted into that figure?
A I had not finished my answer to that question. The guards in the concentration camps and the entire personnel in concentration camps were also in group Dora personnel of the Chief Administrative and Economic Department from the point of view of organization, and in as far as that is concerned, they were exclusively under Pohl's jurisdiction. I assumed that the figure of those guards is included in the figure of 24,091.