A That is right; that was not the case.
31 July M LJG 8-3 leaders in your area were criminals, would you admit that?
DR. SERVATIUS: Mr. President, I have no further questions to this witness.
LT. COLONEL GRIFFITH JONES: I have two things about which perhaps the Tribunal will permit me to ash a few very short questions on. The first is EC 68, which is document US 205 and the Tribunal will find it on page 21 of their document book. BY LT. COLONEL GRIFFITH JONES: on your staff. The Bauernfuehrer was one of the so-called "nonpolitical leaders, was he not? Can you hear me?
A I can hardly hear you. I can't hear you at all.
Q Can you hear me now?
A But very inaudibly. It is a little better now, though
Q I will ask you the question again. Was the Bauernfuehrer on the staff of the Gauleiter, Kreisleiter, and Ortsgruppenleiter, one of the "non political" political leaders who were said to be merely expert advisors? in the Ortsgruppen staff. part that the so-called expert was playing in connection with slave labor. Do you see that document? It is a document addressed to all Kreisbauernschaften. Do you see that? to bring any regulations he received in connection with foreign workers, to the notice of the Kreisleiter, would he not? Witness please be kind enough to answer my question. Would it be the duty of the Kreisbauernfuehrer to bring to the notice of his Kreisleiter, regulations and the instructions which he received 31 July M LJG 8-4 in connection with foreign labor?
A I don't believe so. I believe that would be at the discretion of the Kreisbauernfuehrer -- on things which could not be carried through very well, I do not believe that he would mention those things. pert whose duty it was to advise his Kreisleiter and keep his Kreisleiter informed and who was continually conferring with his Kreisleiter, would never have drawn his Kreisleiter's attention to the instructions he had received about foreign labor? very poorly.
Q We won't pursue that matter. We will just see the part that this so-called non-political expert was expected to play himself. Do you see first of all the "agencies of the Reich Food Administration, the Reichsnaehrstand, State Peasant Association, have received the result of the negotiations with a Higher SS and Police officer in Stuttgart with great satisfaction." Do you see that?
A This point?
Q Do you see that "the State Peasant Association and the Reich Food Administration have received the result of the negotiations' with the Higher SS and Police officer in Stuttgart with great satisfaction."
Q. Let us see what these result are that they were receiving with such satisfaction.
You see on that document that Poles are not allowed to complain, they have no right to complain - number 2 - 3 and 4 are not very important - 5, no from of entertainment - 6, no restaurants - no sexual intercourse - no use of public transport - is not allowed to change employment. In no case may he be granted leave to leave his village - and in no case may permission be granted to visit a public agency, whether it is a labor office or the district peasant association. Why shouldn't he be allowed to visit the district peasant association?
A. I see here that this letter comes from Karlsruhe. That is a different gau. These measures were not decreed in our region, or at any rate, not to such a large extent. As a matter of fact, the foreign workers during the summer had to be home at 9 o'clock in the evening, and during the winter they had to be home at 8 o'clock in the evening.
Q. We're not really interested in that. Are you telling us that the gau of foreign workers in your gau, and the gau at Barden or Karlsruhe were different, and that the Baurenfuhrers had to carry out different decrees in two different gaus?
A. Yes.
Q. Very well. Let us see exactly what they were carrying out in Karlsruhe.
THE PRESIDENT: Colonel Jones, is that already in evidence?
LT. COLONEL GRIFFITH-JONES: Yes.
Q. I want to put one new document to you. Will you look at document D-894? That is a report from the Kreis leadership in Kali dated the 23rd September 1944, subject: Foreigners. It states that Polish youth in the Kali mining area, which has always shown an endeavour to stick particularly closely together, is being watched with especial care. The Ortsgruppenleiter Wittelsheim reports that he noticed 13 young Poles who had left Buggingen without permission and who were in possession of medical certificates. for re-examination. I want to ask you one question on that. Was it a recog nized duty at Karlsruhe to hadn over Pole workers to the Gestapo when they saw fit?
A. In the Kries Kemtenland, I know nothing whatever like that ever happened.
Q. Nothing like that happened at all?
THE PRESIDENT: Is that a new document?
LT. COLONEL GRIFFITH JONES: It is a new document and will be 505. I have no further questions to ask this witness. Perhaps I might have more on euthanasia. If I might refer the Tribunal to page 31 of the document book, which is a protest from Bishop Wurm to Frick, and which is submitted to the Tribunal. If the Tribunal will look at the first paragraph of that letter it will be seen that the Bishop states that this action is taking place on orders of the Reich Defense Council.
And again, if the Tribunal would turn to page 36 of their document book, which is another letter which has already been put in, it is the second letter that the Bishop wrote to Frick, this time in September, the first in July of 1940, and now in September he writes again. In the middle of the paragraph it will be seen it states, "If the leadership of the State is convinced that it is a question of inevitable war measure, why does it not issue a decree with local force?" I have no further questions. BY THE TRIBUNAL (GENERAL NIKITCHENKO):
Q You are a member of the Nazi Party from 1933, is that correct?
Q Did you join the Party voluntarily or under duress? the goal of the Party? various points of the Party Program. aims of the Party?
A Yes, perhaps not 100% with all points, but in general with Herr Hitle* and discussions? did, I would have left, but other things happened, and as I already mentioned, there were things and policy we didn't agree as fully as before. didn't agree with the Party, is that correct?
Q And with all the rest you agreed?
Q And now do you still have the same convictions that you had before? Do you share in the goal and program of the Party?
A Yes, of course. If the proper action had been kept in accordance with the program, then surely we would not have had the war.
Q I didn't ask you that. You don't understand my question. I ask if you now have the sane Nazi opinion that you had before?
Q I ask you if you continue now to share the Nazi opinions?
A No. No, I can't be a Nazi any longer. as correct or incorrect from your point of view? Did you hear the question? Nazi Party correct or incorrect?
THE PRESIDENT: Witness, you had a document from Karlsruhe, stating the effect on certain decrees with relation to Polish from workers. You said that decree had not been in force in your gau. But you said that certain decrees had been in force. To what decree were restrictions placed on foreign workers in your district? summer they had to be home at 9 o'clock in the evening, and in the winter at 8 o'clock in the evening. Any other restrictions were not imposed on them. As Mayor I received directives and was to see that in the community an inn would be designated where the Poles and Ukraine farm workers could gather in the evening.
BY THE PRESIDENT:
Q. Could they have bicycles?
A. Yes in our district or Gau it was a necessity to have a bicycle. A large part of the fields were very distant from the farmhouse and under those conditions it was not possible that the farmer would take a bicycle for himslef and the Polish worker would have to walk for perhaps an hours. A lsrge number of the Polish workers..
Q. That is quite enough. Now you say that the only restrictions upon them were that they had to be in at certain time at night?
A. Yes. Other matters and other directives were not carried through. at the same family table and they received much in the line of clothing from the farmers themselves; after all, they arrived in rags.
Q. Who was it who decided where they were to be employed?
A. The decision was with the Labor Office.
Q. And who did the Labor Office communicate with?
A. The Labor Office communicated with the Kreisbauernschaft and with the Bauernfuehrer.
Q. So that the Labor Office communicated to you and to the Bauernfuehrer
A. In this matter chiefly with the Bauernfuehrer.
Q. Then the Bauernfuehrer told the Labor Office how many laborers they wanted, was that the way it was done?
A. Yes, that's the was it was.
Q. How did he allot them?
A. This allotment was left to the Bauernfuehrer. The farmers in the district said how many owrkers they needed and depending on the allotments, measures were taken and the farmers were allotted the workers according to needs.
Q. Was the Bauernfuehrer subject ot the orders of the Kreisleiter? or Ortsgruppneleiter?
A. The Bauernfuehrer was subordinate to the Reichs Food Administrator.
Q. You mean that he was not at all under the guidance of the Ortsgruppenleiter?
A. No.
Q. But directly under the Foods Office, was he?
A. Yes, he was under the Foods Administration, the Reichsnaehrstand.
THE PRESIDENT: The witness may retire.
DR. SERVATIUS: As my next witness, with the permission of the High Tribunal I should like to call Dr. Hirt, a Blockleiter.
ERNST HIRT, a witness, took the stand and testified as follows: BY THE PRESIDENT:
Q. Will you state your full name, please?
A. Dr. Ernst Hirt.
Q. Will you repeat this oath after me: pure truth and will withhold and add nothing.
(The witness repeated the oath).
THE PRESIDENT: You may sit down. BY DR. SERVATIUS:
Q. witness, when were you born?
A. On the 25 the of June 1896.
Q. You are at liberty?
A. Yes.
Q. You are a Landgerichtsrat and during the war, from 1942 to 1945 you were Kriegsblockleiter here at Nurnberg?
A. Yes.
Q. Over and beyond your block did you know about the political activitty and attitude of the political Block and Zell leiters?
A. Yes, I had contact with other Block and Zell Leaders and as a judge I had enough opportunity to gather insight into the activity of Block and Zell leaders.
Q. Mr. Witness please pause a little bit between questions and answers so that the interpreters can keep up with us.
In taking over of office as a Block Leader during the war did you become a political leader through that step?
A. I was never that.
Q. Please wait while the red light is or.
A. No, I never became that. We were entrusted with the laborers connected with this office.
Q. Were there many of such Block and Zell leaders during the war, men who were not political leaders as well?
A. The majority of the Block and Zell leaders who were appointed during the war were not political leaders, that is, they were not nominated or confirmed by the Kreisleiter they received no certificate had no right to wear a uniform.
Q. Did the Block and Zell Leaders take their position voluntarily?
A. The majority of the Block and Zell Leaders during the war did not take over their office voluntarily.
Q. And how was it in peace time?
A. In peace time I rather assume that the larger part of Block and Zell leaders took over this activity voluntarily.
Q. Was each Party Member obligated to take such an office and by that do you mean that they did not come in voluntarily?
A. Per se, each Party Member was obligated to work in the Party on for the Party but in peace time it could very well be done so that you could stay away from the taking over of office but during the war in the majority of the cases this was quite impossible. When Block and Zell leaders had to go into the service, the Ortsgruppneleiter told the individual party member who was still left to take over this or the other office. Under conditions like that, without drawing, the consequences, one could not refuse.
Q. Why did party members frequently refuse to take over the appointment of such offices?
A. Well an activity like that brought with it in many cases additional work and during the war each man who was fit for work was working very hard.
Q. Wasn't it also for political reasons that might lead one to refuse?
A. Yes, of course, to a large part. A large part of the people who were supposed to take over an office like that were less and less in agreement with measures taken by the Party and especially meausres taken during the war.
Q. What was the task of the political leaders?
A. The tasks of the war Block and Zell Leaders first of all and above all were duties of a social nature. They had to collect money and run errands, the Block Leaders especially had to take care of the population and, in the increasing intense measures of the war, to take over-raid duties, to take up collections for the needs of the Wehrmacht, and other services which were for the common good.
Q. The office which you took over, did that correspond with your position as judge?
A. In no way. This work I considered to be something quite undignified not/ and in keeping with my position for the services that I had to render, the collection of funds, etc., were in no way commensurate with my training and with my profession.
Q. If you had been used as a political leader then you would probably have been accorded a higher position?
A. Yes, I must assume that, but as Block Leader I was not concerned with political activity in any way.
Q Then it was just a matter of carrying out practical work? come? people, from the working classes. They were taken from among manual laborers and people who had rather insignificant positions. according to which these people were chosen? for money matters were involved. These people had to collect dues, and the honesty of the person had to be beyond doubt. would designate the importance of their work as Hoheitstraeger? conversations that I had with other block and cell leaders, people who were active in former years, that there were block helpers where there were large blocks involved. I myself did not have a helper of that kind in my block.
Q And how about the title "Hoheitstraeger"? What did it mean? a Hoheitstraeger, for he had no authority to lead politically or to give directions. In our opinion, a Hoheitstraeger started with the Ortsgruppenleiter.
Q There were conversations among the Ortsgruppenleiters. Did the block leaders receive directives dealing with political opponents?
A We had these conversational evenings. Never at any time was a task like that -- the combatting of political opponents -- in any way ever given. you probably looked at these things very critically.
into concentration camps? Did you conceive directions in that line?
AAt no time did a directive like that ever go out. In my opinion, a block or zellenleiter could not in seriousness -
Q Witness, please pause longer; otherwise the interpreters will not be able to keep up with you very well.
A I shall repeat. A directive of that sort never went out to us. of spying on the population or on individuals for purposes of denunciation. presupposed and necessitated a relationship of confidence, his position from that point on would have been completely impossible. of detrimental rumors was to be reported to the Ortsgruppe so that the competent authorities could be advised and informed. Did you not act according to this book? by, and it was unknown to the other block and cell leaders as well.
THE RESIDENT: Dr. Servatius, you realize that the Tribunal has got a very full summary of the evidence which this witness gave to the Commission. In addition to the actual evidence, we have got a summary, which consists of six pages of folio, and therefore I think it would be convenient to the Tribunal if you could summarize the evidence as much as possible and take it as shortly as you can, as we have the opportunity of seeing the witness and forming our opinion on the credence to be attached to him.
DR. SERVATIUS: Mr. President, my examination will not take very long. BY DR. SERVATIUS: the names of those who were politically suspicious? lived there, with a column for people who might be politically suspicious, but that is a matter about which I know absolutely nothing.
Q Did the block leaders have police functions and authority?
Party? unemployment in Germany, which could be alleviated only in the course of years, but different individuals had different needs, and most of the block and cell leaders with whom I had contact hoped by entering the Party to receive general support in their efforts to do away with the German emergency. Prosecution were wars of aggression. The persecution of the Jews is well know. The trade unions were dissolved. Did not the block and cell leaders know about those incidents, and could they not have recognized that these were the aims of the Party which we set down in the Party program and in the book "Mein Kampf"?
A I consider that impossible. I personally was mere critical of all of these things than many others, but the Party program, as well as the propaganda which was very strong in the press and over the radio, these things could not show to the people what aims and intentions Hitler had at the time he took over power and the aims he followed. were they not well known and publicly known, so that each block and cell leader would of necessity have to know them? simple German or member of the Party. They heard announcements over the radio and the press, Fuehrer speeches, radio reports, and they could not gather any more than anybody else could.
Q You saw a series of faults, and you rejected them. You saw the practices followed by the Party. Why did you remain in office? take over the office nor later could I lay down my office. I could not seriously consider either possibility, for, as sufficient examples have already shown, that would have meant for me the loss of my profession, would have meant the destruction of my existence, and possibly it might have meant even more dire circumstances.
DR. SERVATIUS: Then, Mr. President, I have no further questions to put to this witness.
THE PRESIDENT: The Tribunal will adjourn.
(A recess was taken until 1400 hours.)
(The hearing reconvened at 1400 hours, 31 July 1916)
THE PRESIDENT: In accordance with the Tribunal order on procedure for the organizations entered on the 25th of July, several applications have been made to the Tribunal for an extention of time for the closing speeches by counsel for the organization. These applications are made, the Tribunal thinks, under some misapprehension as to the meaning of the order of July 25. It is not intended that the closing speeches should deal at length with the documents. When offering the documents, or during the examination of witnesses, or at the conclusion of the evidence, as counsel prefers, he may make brief references to the documents to explain their nature and the points to which they refer. All the material matters will thus be before the Tribunal. This will enable the closing speeches to be devoted to summarizing the evidence and commenting on any matters of law, and one-half day will be ample for that purpose. That is all.
DR. SERVATIUS: I have a question on the decision which was announced. My documents and the legal evidence I submitted to the Court without comment, according to the ruling as I understood it. At the end of the total evidence may I comment on this written evidence, and will the Court look through the documents? It was not possible, because they were not at hand.
THE PRESIDENT: Certainly, Dr. Servatius.
DR. ERNST HIRT -- Resumed BY IT COL. GRIFFITH JONES:
Q. Witness, I want to ask you one or two questions on a general matter. Am I right in saying that in towns and villages in many parts of the country there were vast cases exhibiting "Der Stuermer" set up?
A. In many towns there were so-called "Stuermer" cases.
Q. Were they set up by the party?
A. I know nothing whatever about that.
Q. You cannot tell me, can you, whether those "Stuermer" cases were set up on the instruction of either the Kreis or Ortsgruppenleiter?
A. For my own person, I had the impression that the local SA was responsible for setting up the "Stuermer" cases.
Q. There were also, were there not, both in towns -- particularly holidy reports -- and all over the countrysides, notices saying that Jews were undesirable? "Juden sind unerwuenscht"?
A. I saw such signs in various parts of Germany.
Q. Do you know whether they were set up on the instructions and by the authority of the local political leader?
A. I do not know.
LT COL GRIFFITH JONES: Very well. a commission. Perhaps I might draw the Tribunal's attention to it now and to the relevant parts. It is document D-901A, which will become GB 546 Cologne-Aachen on the 31st of January 1941 and it contains instructions to all Kreis and Ortsgruppen organisationsleiters regarding the installing and keeping of card indexes of households.
Under paragraph 1, "The sense and purpose of card indexing households" it is stated that the purpose is as a basis for statistical inquiries and, combined with the entries on the back of the card index of households, for the political judgment of the members of a household. enable the Ortsgruppenleiter to give at any moment a judgment of the household member concerned which is sufficient in all respects.
Then, My Lord, under Paragraph 5, "The Blockleiter must be in possession of lists which contain the same printed text as the household card index, and which are to be provided with the necessary entries by the Blcokleiters : family status, Party membership, membership of an organization affiliated body, etc. Nothing is to be mentioned in these lists about a political judgment."
On the next page, the second paragraph in No. 10 sets out the information which is to be obtained. Halfway down that paragraph:" It is thus to be recorded since when the "Voelkischer Beobachter" was subscribed to, whether the family already possessed a swastika flag before the 1935 flag law, and what wireless apparatus is available in the household. It is easy to obtain this data from a conversation by Blockleiters with the German concerned." I quote the last three lines:"The political judgment of every German is to be carried out by the Ortsgruppe n Organisationsleiter in cooperation with the competent Block and Zelleleiter, as well as in agreement with the Ortsgruppenleiter".
Then in the last paragraph, No. 14 on the next page, it describes how this information can be obtained. "It is prohibited on principle to give Germans and Party members lists or index cards to fill in themselves. Owing to their frequent visits to the individual households, the Blockleiters have sufficient opporutnity to obtain the required data for the index by means of conversations with the Germans. The Blockleiter must make sure of the accuracy of the data supplied, to him by looking through membership papers and such like. The Blockleiter is responsible for the accuracy of the data supplied to the Ortsruppen-organisationsleiters. in.
GEN. RAGINSKY: Mr. President, with your permission I would like to submit three documents which characterize the role of a Kreisleiter and a Blockleiter who committed such crimes as the Germanization of occupied territories, and of the occupied peoples.
The first document I am submitting is document USSR 143. This document was discovered in the archives of the Kreisfuehrer of the town of Pettau in Yugoslavia in May 1945. I would ask the Tribunal to make a note of the fact that the document begins with the phrase, it is indispensable immediately to make all the Blockfuehrers up to the last acquainted with the contents of this document, and the document is signed by a Kreisleiter.
"During my inspection tours through the various local chapters, I ascertained that there are still Slovenian inscriptions. I repeatedly requested the Blockfuehrer to immediately see to it that all these Slovenian inscriptions, billboards, posters, etc., be removed. I therefore ordered the chief of the local chapter to see to it, through personal conversation with a competent priest, that the Slovenian inscriptions will also immediately without exception, disappear from all statues, chapels, and churches."
Point 3 of this document is as follows: "The chiefs of the local chapters are responsible as before that every officeholder down to the last block leader learns to speak and write German.
31 July A LJG 13-1 The next document which I am presenting under No. USSR 449 is an excerpt from the speech of Reich Minister of the Interior Dr. Frick, dated the 16th of December, 1941, in connection with the appointment of a Gauleiter, Dr. Friedrich Rainer.
This document was seized in the archives of the Kreisleiter of the War the Gau by the Yugoslavian army in may, 1945. In the speech it is said:
"Dear Party Comrade Rainer:
"The Fuehrer has appointed you to be a Gauleiter"-
THE PRESIDENT: General Raginsky, have you got the original of this document?
GENERAL RAGINSKY: I beg you to forgive me, Mr. President; I did not get your remark.
THE PRESIDENT: It is all right. We have the original of the document now. Now can you explain to us what the document is; I mean, how it is certified, how it is proved?
GENERAL RAGINSKY: This document has been authenticated by the Yugoslav Government Committee on the Investigation of Crimes of the Germans Occupying the South of Yugoslavia. The original of this document is to be found in the archives of this committee. The copy which I am submitting to this Tribunal has been authenticated by the president of the Government Commission, Dr. Giedlkovitch.
"Dear Party Comrade Rainer:
"The duty of Party Comrade Rainer is that this entire district is to be made entirely and totally German. The German language must more and more receive a priority. It is the only language of authority and the only one which can be used officially. The youth in the schools must immediately be educated in the German spirit. This must be introduced immediately and all educational institutions must be exclusively in German.
"As to the rest of the population, they must be taught the German language at an increased tempo. This must not only be the external picture.
The professional language will be 31 July A LJG 13-2 generally German, and all official matters will be in German.
And only when the entire youth will be speaking German and only when the German language will have been introduced into daily life and will replace the Yugoslavian language --only then will we be able to speak about the Germanization of our district." No. USSR 191. This document is also an excerpt from the minutes of a conference of the staff of the Gauleiter of Lower Styria, and the original of this document was seized by units of the Yugoslav Army in the archives of the Gauleiter of the town of Marbov in May, 1935.
On the first page of this excerpt, Mr. President, we can see that on the 12th of November 1941, the Gauleiter was having a conference with who Security Department, and at this conference were present members of the SS and Standardenfuehrer Lurdent informed the Gauleiter that approximately 2,000 people had been transferred to Serbia and 1,200 people had been put into concentration comps. As a retaliatory measure for the last incident, about 30 people have been shot.
The last paragraph on the first page reads: -- This is an excerpt from the minutes of the conference of the 6th of January 1932, and this also states that on the 27th of December 1941, in answer to an attack, 40 people were shot, and further the representative of the Styrian Gauleitung said: "There is settlement into Germany proper. The movement is almost completed. About 10,000 people are still to be resettled." excerpts of a similar kind. BY DA. SERVATIUS: I shall ask you a few questions briefly about them. The first is the letter of the document D-901.