I can not call it by any other name.
LT. COLONEL GRIFFITH-JONES: I have no further questions. BY DR. SERVATIUS:
Q I have a question oh Document D-897, the first one that was submitted; a letter from the Security Service, Branch Erfurt, signed by an officer of the Security Office. It is addressed to all consultants and Stuetzpunktleiter. The Prosecutor said that the Stuetzpunkt, which is here referred to, is a Party agency. Is this opinion correct if you road that the letter is addressed to all Referenten and Stuetzpunktleiter and is a letter of the SS? It can only be a Stuetzpunktleiter of the SD, for at that time within the political leadership there were no more Stuetzpunktleiter but only Ortsgruppen. Moreover, further on in this letter it expressly mentions the Ortsgruppenleiter.
Q Yes. It says there: "This matter is also to be carried out in close cooperation with the Ortsgruppenleiter of the Party." Is this letter addressed to a subordinate Party agency from a subordinate SS agency?
AAt the moment I don't have the letter here, but I recall that it was addressed to the subordinate branch agency and saying that they should contact the Ortsgruppenleiter. I noticed that the Ortsgruppenleiter was to be informed only one day before, while the others are informed two days beforehand and given information. channels of the Party or were the higher Party agencies skipped? should have been done by the higher Party agency. Party agencies knew nothing of this action of the lower SS agency?
DR. SERVATIUS: I have no more questions to put to the witness.
THE PRESIDENT: The witness may retire.
Will you call your next witness, Dr. Servatius?
DR. SERVATIUS: With the permission of the Court, I call the next witness, Wegscheider, on Ortsgruppenleiter.
HANS WEGSCHEIDER, a witness, took the stand and testified as follows: BY THE PRESIDENT:
Q Will you state your full name, please?
Q Will you repeat this oath after me:
I swear by God, the Almighty and O**scient that I will speak the pure truth and will withhold and add nothing.
(The witness repeated the oath.)
THE PRESIDENT: You may sit down. BY DR. SERVATIUS:
Q Witness, when were you born? 1933 to 1945, in Hirschdorf, near St. Lorenz?
Q That is in the Kreis Kemten, Allgrev?
Q And you were mayor from 1933 on?
Q You were a blacksmith and veterinary?
Q And, as such, you traveled a great deal in Allgrev? in Allgrev? Please make a pause so that a translation can be made.
Q How many people were there?
Q When did you enter the Party?
Q How did you become an Ortsgruppenleiter? 28th of March, '33, I was appointed Ortsgruppenleiter.
Q Did you take an oath?
A Yes. As Ortsgruppenleiter I took an oath once. oath twelve times. Is that a mistake?
Q How did you become the local mayor? At about the end of this month the community council elected a mayor, and I had not only the votes of the NSDAP, but also four votes of the Social Democratic workers' party and one vote of the Bava rian Peoples' Party, and thus I was elected May or.
Q As Ortsgruppenleiter, did you receive a salary?
Q What was the case of the Ortsgruppenleiter who were not mayors? in the hands of one man? probably there was no suitable personality. In ten communities of our Kreis the mayor and Ortspruppenleiter were the same person, and in the last analysis it was more expedient.
Q. How was your Ortsgruppenleitung made up?
A. First the Ortsgruppenleiter, then the propaganda organization, then the treasurer, a press office leader, then two Zellenleiter and about eight Blockleiter.
Q. What was the activity of the Block and Zellebleiter?
A. The activity of our Zellenleiter in the small country community developed into something superfluous so that in most of the Ortsgruppen they were abolished. The activity of the Blockleiter can be considered purely technical in that they did only auxiliary work.
Q. Did you consider the Block and Zellenleiter as political leaders and Hoheitstraeger (dignitaries)?
A. No, since the work of the Blockleiter in the small country communities was insignificant politically, they could not be called Hoheitstraeger.
Q. Why did you enter the party and why did you take over your office as Ortsgruppenleiter?
A. From the year 1929 and the years following, in the years 1931, '31, '32, and '33 and as I was a blacksmith by profession and had been closely connected with the peasants, I saw with my own eyes how German agriculture declined and I saw this decline year by year. In our district to a large extent we had joined the Bavarian Peasant Group and a few had gone with the German People's Party and a few workers who were in the community joined the Socialist Party and a few belonged to the Communists.
Q. Please give me your personal reasons, your very own reasons for entering.
A. I have already emphasized in my own district I saw this decline personally.
Q. They were social reasons?
A. Purely social reasons.
Q. And what was the attitude of the others?
What was the attitude of the other political leaders? Did they have other reasons for joining, perhaps the fight against the Jews or the acquisition on Lebensraum?
A. The need was equally intensive in all agricultural regions and I believe the attitude might well have been the same.
Q. What was the attitude of the Kreisleiter and teh Gauleiter?
A. The Gauleiters and Kreisleiters with patriots and I believe they saw their activity and their calling in the party as a means of doing good for the poeple and for the country.
Q. Mr. Witness, in the party program other aims are set forth as well, that is purely social ones, such as for instance the solution of the Jewish problem.
What was the attitude of the political loaders to that question?
A. In our district there were no Jewish nusinesses and there were no Jewish people there. Therefore, this question was not aburning one in our district. We hardly ever mentioned it or discussed it.
Q. Weren't there any Jewish people who dealt in cattle?
A. No, not in the country. In the city yes, there was an establishmend. Our peasants were active there; they sold there; they bought cattle there; they exchanged cattle there.
Q. Weren't there steps taken or what was the attitude in that regard?
A. No, for a long time after the assumtion of power our farmers traded there and they made their purchases of cattle there.
Q. The party program also contained a demand for settlement space. Was this to be carried out through conquest and did you receive directives which might be interpreted as leading to a preparation for war?
A. I did not receive any directives such as that and we, in the country, saw in this settlement problem the regaining or the returning of our colonies and we were of the firm conviction that this policy could be carried out in a peaceful manner.
Q. Did not the political leaders soon see that a large rearmament program was going on?
A. The rearmament, as such, we saw but little of that because we lived in the country.
At the Reichsparteitag, although I do not recall the exact year, we had seen that more airplanes and more tanks were present and were being shown and on the basis of that we gained the conviction that a country and a people like Germany would have to protect her borders for her own internal structure and we considered this rearmament a necessary evil.
Q. Were there not aims which could be realized only through wars of aggression, such as the slogan, "Away from Versailles" and "Germans unite"?
A. This point of the program, as well, was discussed with us and we saw the union of all German speaking peoples in line with a plebiscite and in line with the self-determination rights of the German speaking people.
Q. Were there not soon differences with the church because of the attitude of the party as to church matters? There were attacks on the church you know.
A. No, not in the country. Especially as to us in the country, we made no differences. Blockleiter and Zellenleiter were Catholics and in my particular district, together with my eight political leaders, I was active in church matters. The people who sang, the church musicians, perhaps there were thirty of them, were party members, male and female or they belonged to some organization, the youth group or whatever the case may be as it applied to them. That applied in my district and I believe the same conditions applied in other districts and communities as well.
Q. Did not the clergymen protest against the steps being taken by the party on the Jewish question and did not this lead to arguments and similar questions?
A. As I have already mentioned, there were no Jews in our locality. Therefore, this problem was hardly dealt with at all.
Q. Was there not unrest because of the seizing of political opponents and their being taken to concentration camps?
A. In our whole area I never had any knowledge of the fact that anyone was taken to a concentration camp. In my community, and I assume this happened right after the assumption to power, two individuals were sent to Dachau but what the reason for this was I do not know for at that time I was not mayor and I was not Ortsgruppenleiter.
My attention was called to this matter when in the year 1933 a woman, Mrs. Behr from Rottach near Kemten, came to me and asked me to do something for her husband, who had been interned at Dachau for some months and that I should make application for his release as it was not possible for her to cultivate her large vegetable garden alone.
Q. You need not give us the details. Just tell us what steps you took and what inquiries you made.
A. I made inquiry and for several months did not hear anything at all.
Q. Was he released?
A. Yes, he was released.
Q. Did you speak with him?
A. Yes.
Q. What did he tell you?
A. He told me: "I was treated farily well, the food and living conditions were quite good and the treatment as well."
Q. The Kreisleiter and Gauleiter, did both of these gentlemen agree with this more or less negative attitude or did they demand more severe measures against all who were not party members or people who had interests other than those of the party?
A. Gauleiter and Kreisleiter, both represented the view and had the attitude that severe measures should be rejected. Both of them at meetings always repeatedly made clear to us that we should set a good example and through our good example we should thus gain the confidence and the good will of the people.
Q. Were SA and SS units formed in your group or your community so that political opponents could be terrorized?
A. No. There were very few members of the SA and SS who were in the country. They were actually active in the cities. In the nearby and remote communities, such as Oberguensburg, for instance, the members of these two organizations were united into small units. Their activity was purely propagandistic.
Q. Was there a unit of the SS there too?
A. In Kemten there was a small SS cavalry unit but you can hardly call it a unit for this group had only eight or ten members and was active purely along propaganda lines.
Q. Did not the party press make known to you the party demands, such as, for instance, as to the Jewish question through "Der Stuermer" or through "Das Schwarze Korps"? Do you know both of those newspapers, "Das Schwarze Korps" and "Der Stuermer"?
A. Both of these newspapers exceeded the aims of the party program by far on these two points. The party program on these two points wanted to merely take the Jews out of influential positions. Apart from that these papers were hardly read in the country Q Didn't you have to tell yourself that activity of 31 July M LJG 8-1 that sort, naturally or by force, would lead to an aggressive war and to crimes against war, such as are the basis of the indictment today?
A No; this activity of Ortagruppenleiter or of Blockleiter, the activities carried on by these people were of such a nature that they would hardly lead to a supposition of that kind. Our work was purely socialistic; during the war, regarding the lynching of aviators who had made emergency landings, there was a letter of Bormann and Goebbels and there were directives given out over the radio and through, the press. Did you receive directives from the Kreisleiter in this regard? lynched in your territory?
Q What happened to them? flyer who had landed about a hundred yards behind my home. I took him in my home and took care of him and after--perhaps a quarter of an hour--he was taken by the police. In the month of March in the year 1945, although I can't tell you exactly today, four American prisoners of war had escaped from a camp at Eidrunk and the guard who had been stationed at a bridge at Hirschdorf, this guard had captured them after twelve o'clock and brought these four prisoners to me. taken in your region Allgaue?
A Yes, that was the general way we handled this. The population of Allgaue is--They are very good Catholics and we all are of the opinion that such prisoners of war should actually be treated as prisoners of war. were employed. Did you have directives about the treatment of of such workers, treatment which you might consider contrary 31 July M LJG 8-2 to human dignity?
entire matter of foreign workers, there were shout sixty of them, Polish and Ukrainian civilian workers, and this was an activity that was handled by the Ortsbauernfuehrer and in our area it was such that on matters of this kind, the Bauernfuehrer discussed these matters with me.
Q Didn't you hear about the fact that these workers were to sleep in a barn and were to receive their food there as well? were to sleep in a barn and were to receive their food there, that I never heard of; only the labor office gave each Polish worker a slip which was to be turned, over to our farmers, a slip on which it said that the Polish workers should not eat at the same table with the farmers and they should be at home at a certain hour. In discussing this matter with the Bauernfuehrer at that time, I told him this matter is not to be carried through, within our Gau. If the foreign worker involved behaved himself decently and did his work as well as a German worker, then he should, have the same rights, the same rights as the German worker would have.
Q Mr. Witness, on other things which you heard about the Party in the Reich, wasn't it that one would have liked to deviate from certain points and especially during the war? the country believed, we all believed in the Fuehrer's love of peace, for we all ourselves know that Hitler had lived through the horrors of the first world war and we were convinced of the will of peace, the will of peace had been emphasized to us again and again. leaders deliberately partook in terrorization in line with an aggressive war and the commission of crimes?
A That is right; that was not the case.
31 July M LJG 8-3 leaders in your area were criminals, would you admit that?
DR. SERVATIUS: Mr. President, I have no further questions to this witness.
LT. COLONEL GRIFFITH JONES: I have two things about which perhaps the Tribunal will permit me to ash a few very short questions on. The first is EC 68, which is document US 205 and the Tribunal will find it on page 21 of their document book. BY LT. COLONEL GRIFFITH JONES: on your staff. The Bauernfuehrer was one of the so-called "nonpolitical leaders, was he not? Can you hear me?
A I can hardly hear you. I can't hear you at all.
Q Can you hear me now?
A But very inaudibly. It is a little better now, though
Q I will ask you the question again. Was the Bauernfuehrer on the staff of the Gauleiter, Kreisleiter, and Ortsgruppenleiter, one of the "non political" political leaders who were said to be merely expert advisors? in the Ortsgruppen staff. part that the so-called expert was playing in connection with slave labor. Do you see that document? It is a document addressed to all Kreisbauernschaften. Do you see that? to bring any regulations he received in connection with foreign workers, to the notice of the Kreisleiter, would he not? Witness please be kind enough to answer my question. Would it be the duty of the Kreisbauernfuehrer to bring to the notice of his Kreisleiter, regulations and the instructions which he received 31 July M LJG 8-4 in connection with foreign labor?
A I don't believe so. I believe that would be at the discretion of the Kreisbauernfuehrer -- on things which could not be carried through very well, I do not believe that he would mention those things. pert whose duty it was to advise his Kreisleiter and keep his Kreisleiter informed and who was continually conferring with his Kreisleiter, would never have drawn his Kreisleiter's attention to the instructions he had received about foreign labor? very poorly.
Q We won't pursue that matter. We will just see the part that this so-called non-political expert was expected to play himself. Do you see first of all the "agencies of the Reich Food Administration, the Reichsnaehrstand, State Peasant Association, have received the result of the negotiations with a Higher SS and Police officer in Stuttgart with great satisfaction." Do you see that?
A This point?
Q Do you see that "the State Peasant Association and the Reich Food Administration have received the result of the negotiations' with the Higher SS and Police officer in Stuttgart with great satisfaction."
Q. Let us see what these result are that they were receiving with such satisfaction.
You see on that document that Poles are not allowed to complain, they have no right to complain - number 2 - 3 and 4 are not very important - 5, no from of entertainment - 6, no restaurants - no sexual intercourse - no use of public transport - is not allowed to change employment. In no case may he be granted leave to leave his village - and in no case may permission be granted to visit a public agency, whether it is a labor office or the district peasant association. Why shouldn't he be allowed to visit the district peasant association?
A. I see here that this letter comes from Karlsruhe. That is a different gau. These measures were not decreed in our region, or at any rate, not to such a large extent. As a matter of fact, the foreign workers during the summer had to be home at 9 o'clock in the evening, and during the winter they had to be home at 8 o'clock in the evening.
Q. We're not really interested in that. Are you telling us that the gau of foreign workers in your gau, and the gau at Barden or Karlsruhe were different, and that the Baurenfuhrers had to carry out different decrees in two different gaus?
A. Yes.
Q. Very well. Let us see exactly what they were carrying out in Karlsruhe.
THE PRESIDENT: Colonel Jones, is that already in evidence?
LT. COLONEL GRIFFITH-JONES: Yes.
Q. I want to put one new document to you. Will you look at document D-894? That is a report from the Kreis leadership in Kali dated the 23rd September 1944, subject: Foreigners. It states that Polish youth in the Kali mining area, which has always shown an endeavour to stick particularly closely together, is being watched with especial care. The Ortsgruppenleiter Wittelsheim reports that he noticed 13 young Poles who had left Buggingen without permission and who were in possession of medical certificates. for re-examination. I want to ask you one question on that. Was it a recog nized duty at Karlsruhe to hadn over Pole workers to the Gestapo when they saw fit?
A. In the Kries Kemtenland, I know nothing whatever like that ever happened.
Q. Nothing like that happened at all?
THE PRESIDENT: Is that a new document?
LT. COLONEL GRIFFITH JONES: It is a new document and will be 505. I have no further questions to ask this witness. Perhaps I might have more on euthanasia. If I might refer the Tribunal to page 31 of the document book, which is a protest from Bishop Wurm to Frick, and which is submitted to the Tribunal. If the Tribunal will look at the first paragraph of that letter it will be seen that the Bishop states that this action is taking place on orders of the Reich Defense Council.
And again, if the Tribunal would turn to page 36 of their document book, which is another letter which has already been put in, it is the second letter that the Bishop wrote to Frick, this time in September, the first in July of 1940, and now in September he writes again. In the middle of the paragraph it will be seen it states, "If the leadership of the State is convinced that it is a question of inevitable war measure, why does it not issue a decree with local force?" I have no further questions. BY THE TRIBUNAL (GENERAL NIKITCHENKO):
Q You are a member of the Nazi Party from 1933, is that correct?
Q Did you join the Party voluntarily or under duress? the goal of the Party? various points of the Party Program. aims of the Party?
A Yes, perhaps not 100% with all points, but in general with Herr Hitle* and discussions? did, I would have left, but other things happened, and as I already mentioned, there were things and policy we didn't agree as fully as before. didn't agree with the Party, is that correct?
Q And with all the rest you agreed?
Q And now do you still have the same convictions that you had before? Do you share in the goal and program of the Party?
A Yes, of course. If the proper action had been kept in accordance with the program, then surely we would not have had the war.
Q I didn't ask you that. You don't understand my question. I ask if you now have the sane Nazi opinion that you had before?
Q I ask you if you continue now to share the Nazi opinions?
A No. No, I can't be a Nazi any longer. as correct or incorrect from your point of view? Did you hear the question? Nazi Party correct or incorrect?
THE PRESIDENT: Witness, you had a document from Karlsruhe, stating the effect on certain decrees with relation to Polish from workers. You said that decree had not been in force in your gau. But you said that certain decrees had been in force. To what decree were restrictions placed on foreign workers in your district? summer they had to be home at 9 o'clock in the evening, and in the winter at 8 o'clock in the evening. Any other restrictions were not imposed on them. As Mayor I received directives and was to see that in the community an inn would be designated where the Poles and Ukraine farm workers could gather in the evening.
BY THE PRESIDENT:
Q. Could they have bicycles?
A. Yes in our district or Gau it was a necessity to have a bicycle. A large part of the fields were very distant from the farmhouse and under those conditions it was not possible that the farmer would take a bicycle for himslef and the Polish worker would have to walk for perhaps an hours. A lsrge number of the Polish workers..
Q. That is quite enough. Now you say that the only restrictions upon them were that they had to be in at certain time at night?
A. Yes. Other matters and other directives were not carried through. at the same family table and they received much in the line of clothing from the farmers themselves; after all, they arrived in rags.
Q. Who was it who decided where they were to be employed?
A. The decision was with the Labor Office.
Q. And who did the Labor Office communicate with?
A. The Labor Office communicated with the Kreisbauernschaft and with the Bauernfuehrer.
Q. So that the Labor Office communicated to you and to the Bauernfuehrer
A. In this matter chiefly with the Bauernfuehrer.
Q. Then the Bauernfuehrer told the Labor Office how many laborers they wanted, was that the way it was done?
A. Yes, that's the was it was.
Q. How did he allot them?
A. This allotment was left to the Bauernfuehrer. The farmers in the district said how many owrkers they needed and depending on the allotments, measures were taken and the farmers were allotted the workers according to needs.
Q. Was the Bauernfuehrer subject ot the orders of the Kreisleiter? or Ortsgruppneleiter?
A. The Bauernfuehrer was subordinate to the Reichs Food Administrator.
Q. You mean that he was not at all under the guidance of the Ortsgruppenleiter?
A. No.
Q. But directly under the Foods Office, was he?
A. Yes, he was under the Foods Administration, the Reichsnaehrstand.
THE PRESIDENT: The witness may retire.
DR. SERVATIUS: As my next witness, with the permission of the High Tribunal I should like to call Dr. Hirt, a Blockleiter.
ERNST HIRT, a witness, took the stand and testified as follows: BY THE PRESIDENT:
Q. Will you state your full name, please?
A. Dr. Ernst Hirt.
Q. Will you repeat this oath after me: pure truth and will withhold and add nothing.
(The witness repeated the oath).
THE PRESIDENT: You may sit down. BY DR. SERVATIUS:
Q. witness, when were you born?
A. On the 25 the of June 1896.
Q. You are at liberty?
A. Yes.
Q. You are a Landgerichtsrat and during the war, from 1942 to 1945 you were Kriegsblockleiter here at Nurnberg?
A. Yes.
Q. Over and beyond your block did you know about the political activitty and attitude of the political Block and Zell leiters?
A. Yes, I had contact with other Block and Zell Leaders and as a judge I had enough opportunity to gather insight into the activity of Block and Zell leaders.
Q. Mr. Witness please pause a little bit between questions and answers so that the interpreters can keep up with us.
In taking over of office as a Block Leader during the war did you become a political leader through that step?
A. I was never that.
Q. Please wait while the red light is or.
A. No, I never became that. We were entrusted with the laborers connected with this office.
Q. Were there many of such Block and Zell leaders during the war, men who were not political leaders as well?
A. The majority of the Block and Zell leaders who were appointed during the war were not political leaders, that is, they were not nominated or confirmed by the Kreisleiter they received no certificate had no right to wear a uniform.
Q. Did the Block and Zell Leaders take their position voluntarily?
A. The majority of the Block and Zell Leaders during the war did not take over their office voluntarily.
Q. And how was it in peace time?
A. In peace time I rather assume that the larger part of Block and Zell leaders took over this activity voluntarily.
Q. Was each Party Member obligated to take such an office and by that do you mean that they did not come in voluntarily?
A. Per se, each Party Member was obligated to work in the Party on for the Party but in peace time it could very well be done so that you could stay away from the taking over of office but during the war in the majority of the cases this was quite impossible. When Block and Zell leaders had to go into the service, the Ortsgruppneleiter told the individual party member who was still left to take over this or the other office. Under conditions like that, without drawing, the consequences, one could not refuse.
Q. Why did party members frequently refuse to take over the appointment of such offices?
A. Well an activity like that brought with it in many cases additional work and during the war each man who was fit for work was working very hard.
Q. Wasn't it also for political reasons that might lead one to refuse?
A. Yes, of course, to a large part. A large part of the people who were supposed to take over an office like that were less and less in agreement with measures taken by the Party and especially meausres taken during the war.
Q. What was the task of the political leaders?
A. The tasks of the war Block and Zell Leaders first of all and above all were duties of a social nature. They had to collect money and run errands, the Block Leaders especially had to take care of the population and, in the increasing intense measures of the war, to take over-raid duties, to take up collections for the needs of the Wehrmacht, and other services which were for the common good.
Q. The office which you took over, did that correspond with your position as judge?
A. In no way. This work I considered to be something quite undignified not/ and in keeping with my position for the services that I had to render, the collection of funds, etc., were in no way commensurate with my training and with my profession.
Q. If you had been used as a political leader then you would probably have been accorded a higher position?
A. Yes, I must assume that, but as Block Leader I was not concerned with political activity in any way.