Our further activity during these two days bore the character of a rapid examination under the direction of Germans or even a tourist walk and we saw the open graves and we were shown the peasant's house, a few miles distant from the Katyn forest, where in glass cabinets papers and objects of various sorts were kept. We were told that these papers and objects had been found in the clothes of the corpses which had been exhumed. shown to you when they were already in glass cases? before we arrived. documents, for instance to see whether the papers were impregnated with any acids coming from the corpses, from the disintergration of the corpses or to carry out any other kind of scientific examination? As I have already told you, these papers were exhibited in glass cases and we did not even touch them. yes or no, to a question which I have already put to you briefly. Were the conditions which were created for you and for the members of the commission, were these conditions quite adequate for a scientific examination? quate for a complete and objective scientific examination. The only thing which bore the character of a scientific nature was the autopsy. corpses which were discovered only eight were opened by members of the commission?
Q Please answer the next question. In what condition were these corpses? I would like you to describe the state in which they were and also the state of the inner organs.
graves I can only judge according to the state of the corpse which I myself opened. The condition of this corpse was, as far as I could ascertain, the same as that of all the other corpse. The skin was very well preserved, was partly dried up, of a brown-red color and in some parts there were blue markings from the clothes. The nails and hair, in most eases, had already fallen out. In the head of the corpse I opened there was a snail shot, a bullet wound in the nape of the head. Only an unformed mass remained of the brain. The muscles were still preserved to such an extent that one could even see the heart valves. The inner organs were also preserved in a good state of preservation. But, of course, they were dried up, bent and darkened. The stomach bore the trace of some sort of contents. A part of the fat had turned into wax. We were impressed by the fact that while being dragged brutally, no members had detached themselves. I dictated on the spot of the examination a protocol. A similar protocol was dictated by the other members of the commission. This memorandum was published by the German under number 827.
Q I would like you to answer the following question. Did the legal medical exports testify to the fact that they were in the graves already three years? corpse I myself had opened. The condition of this corpse, as I have already stated was typical of the average condition of the Katyn corpses. These corpses were far from disintegrated since the fat was only beginning to turn into wax. In my opinion these corps were buried for a far shorter period of time than three years. I considered that these corpses had been buried not more than a year or a year and a half.
of a core Southern climate--you considered that the corpses that were exhumed in the Katyn Forest had been lying under the earth for not more than a year and a half? Did I understand you correctly?
A Yes, quite right. I considered that they had been buried for not more than a year and a half.
THE PRESIDENT: The Tribunal will adjourn now.
(The Tribunal adjourned until 1000 hours, 2 July 1946.)
BY COLONEL SMIRNOV: Commission, perform the autopsies of these eight corpses? What date was it exactly? the corpses were in the ground one and a half years? me a brief answer to the following question; make a special art of legal medicine and that this art includes deductions? so far as I know, it is done in the following way: First of all, we give a description and then the deduction. the autopsy? autopsy contained only a description without a conclusion.
Q Why? wanted us to say that the corpses were in the ground for three years. This could have been deduced from the papers which were shown to us in the little peasant hut about which I have already spoken. autopsy?
THE PRESIDENT: Colonel Smirnov, you are interrupting the interpreter all the time. Before the interpreter has finished the answer, you have put another question. It is very difficult for us to hear the interpreter.
COLONEL SMIRNOV: Thank you, Mr. President.
THE WITNESS: Because the objective deduction regarding the autopsy was not in accordance with the official version, I did not make any deductions. BY COLONEL SMIRNOV: submitted to you testified to the fact that the corpses had been in the ground, not three years, but oneyear and a half?
THE PRESIDENT: Colonel Smirnov, you must remember that it is a double translation, and unless you pause more than you are pausing, your voice comes in upon the interpreter's and we cannot hear the interpreter.
COLONEL SMIRNOV: Very well, Mr. President.
THE WITNESS: Yes, thatis quite correct. BY COLONEL SMIRNOV: the time the corpses had been in the graves? excavations in the Katyn Woods, there were differences of opinion regarding the time the corpses had been buried. Some of them, as for instance, Professor Heim, spoke about immaterial things; as for instance, that one of these who were shot had bruises. Some of the others, as for instance, Professor Bueckle from Bucharest, cut off some hair from the corpse in order to determine the age of the corpse. I think that that is most immaterial. Professor Balmieri, on the basis of the autopsy that he performed, said that the corpse had been in the ground over a year but no could not determine exactly how long.
corpses remained in the ground was Professor Miroslavic from Zagreb, and he said it was three years. However, when the German book regarding Katyn was published, I read the result of his objective consultation, and his statement regarding the corpse on which he had performed the autopsy. I had the impression that the corpse on which he had performed the autopsy did not differ in its stage of decomposition from the other corpses. This led me to think that his statement that the corpses had remained in the ground for three years was not a true fact in accordance with his description. the members of the Commission? I should like to say that this term is not very well known in general criminal medicine. I should like you to give us an exact explanation of what Professor Orses, of Budapest, means by the term "pserdo callous."
THE PRESIDENT: Would you repeat that question? BY COLONEL SMIRNOV: submitted to the members of the Commission? I should like to remark that as this term is not very well known in the books on legal medicine, I should like to stop and give a detailed explanation of what Professor Orses means by the term "pserdo callous."
THE PRESIDENT: What are you saying the skulls had? You asked if there were many skulls with something or other.
COLONEL SMIRNOV: It is "pserdo callous." It is a Latin term of some sort of corn which is formed on the inside of the skull.
THE PRESIDENT: Can you spell the word in Latin?
(Colonel Smirnov submitted a paper to the President.)
THE PRESIDENT: What you have written here is p-s-e-r-d-o. Do you mean p-s-e-u-d-o, which means false?
COLONEL SMIRNOV: Yes, that is right, "pseudo."
THE PRESIDENT: Now then, put your question again, and try to put it shortly.
COLONEL SMIRNOV: Yes.
BY COLONEL SMIRNOV: were submitted to the members of the Commission? Will you please give an exact explanation of this term of Professor Orses? conference of the delegates. That took place on the 30th of April, in the afternoon, in the building where the field laboratory of Smolensk was located.
Professor Orses understood the term "pseudo callous" as meaning some formation of indissoluble salt of calcium and other salts on the inside part of the skull. Professor Orses stated that, according to his observations in Hungary, this happened if the corpses remained in the ground for at least three years. When Professor Orses stated this at the scientific conference, none of the delegates said anything either for or against it. I deduced from that, that this term "pseudo callous" was also unknown to the other delegates, just as it was to me.
Q (interposing) I should like to answer this for me. What number did the corpse have from this skul was taken which had signs of pseudo callous? book bore the number 526. From this I deduced that this corpse was exhumed from the grave before our arrival at Katyn, because all the other corpses on which we performed autopsies on the 30th of April had numbers which ran over 800. It was explained to us that as soon as a corpse was exhumed it immediately got a special number placed on it.
Q Tell me this, please. Did you notice any pseudo callous on the skulls of these corpses on which you, as well as your colleagues, performed autopsies? instead of brain in the head there was some sort of gruel-like mass, but I never noticed any pseudo callous in the skull. The other delegates-- after the explanation, which they supported -- did not state that they found any pseudo callous in the other skulls. Even Butz, an assistant, who examined the corpses even before our arrival, did not state that they had noticed any pseudo callous.
tained the report of Butz, I noticed that Butz referred to pseudo callous in order to give more weight to his statement that the corpses had remained in the ground for three years. skull was submitted to you which had pseudo callous? of decomposition of the clothing which you found on the corpses. it was impregnated with some things emanating from the decomposition of the corpses. When you pulled the clothing in order to undress the corpses, or when you tried to take off the shoes, the clothing did not tear, nor did the shoes fall apart. I even had the impression that this clothing could have been used again, after having been cleaned. There were some papers contained in the pockets of the clothing of the corpse on which I performed the autopsy, and these papers were also impregnated with corpse fluid.
Some of the Germans who were present when I was performing the autopsy demanded that I should describe these papers and the contents of those papers; but I refused to do it, thinking that his was not the duty of medical men. In substance I had already noticed the previous day when the papers were submitted to us that with the help of the dates contained in those papers, they were trying to make us think that the corpses had remained in the ground for three years. of the corpse. Some of the other delegates who performed the autopsy also found some papers in the clothing of the corpse. The papers which were found in the clothing of the corpse on which I performed the autopsy were put into a record which bore the same number as the corpse, No. 827. Later on, in the book which was published by the Germans, I saw that some of the delegates described the contents of the papers which were found on the corpse.
Q. I should like to ask you to reply to the following question. On what objective medical data did you base your deductions that the corpses remained in the ground not less than three years ?
THE PRESIDENT: ill you put the question again ? I did not understand the question.
COLONEL SMIRNOV: Very well, Mr. President. BY COLONEL SMIRNOV:
Q. I asked on what objective legal medical data did you base the deductions of the protocol of the medical commission that the corpses remained in the ground not less than three years ?
THE PRESIDENT: Has he said that that was the deduction he made ? Not less than three years ?
THE TRIBUNAL (MR. JUSTICE BIDDLE): He has not said that.
THE PRESIDENT: He has not said that at all. He never said that he made the deduction that the corpses remained in the ground not less than three years.
COLONEL SMIRNOV: He did not make this deduction; but Professor Markov together with the other members of the commission, signed a report of the international commission.
THE PRESIDENT: I know; but that is why I ask you to repeat your question.
The question that was translated to us was: On what grounds did you make your deduction that the corpses had remained in the ground not less than three years, which is the opposite of what he says.
Now, will you put the question again?
COLONEL SMIRNOV: Very well. BY COLONEL SMIRNOV:
Q. I am not asking you about your personal reports, but about the general reports of the entire commission, of which, among other people, you were a member?
THE PRESIDENT: Wait a minute. Now, then, Colonel Smirnov, will you put the question agai n,
COLONEL SMIRNOV: Yes, Mr. President. BY COLONEL SMIRNOV:
Q. I was asking, on what grounds, such as objective data of legal medicine, was based not the individual report of Dr. Markov, but the deduction of the eitire commission together, in the international reports that the corpses remained not less than three years in the ground?
A. The collective report of the commission which was signed by all the delegates was very poor regarding the real objective, legal medical data. Concerning the decomposition of the corpses, it was stated--there was only one sentence about this in the report--that the corpses were in various stages of decomposition, and there was no description of the real stage of decomposition. of the witnesses, but not on the actual legal medical data. As far as legal medicine is concerned, they tried to support this deduction by the statement of Professor Orses regarding the finding of psuedo-callous in the skull of the corpse in corpse No. 526. That is my opinion. to arrive at a conclusion regarding the stage of decomposition of thousands of corpses which were contained in the Katyn graves. Fruthermore, the remark of Professor Orses regarding psuedo-callous was made in Hungary; that is to say, in quite different soil and climatic conditions, and only in individual graves and not in mass graves, as was the case in Katyn.
Q. You spoke about the testimony of witnesses. Did the members of the commission have the opportunity personally to interrogate those wit nesses, especially the Russian witnesses?
A. We did not have the opportunity of having any contact with the population. Immediately upon our arrival at the hotel in Smolensk, Butz told us that we were in the military zone, and that we did not have the right to walk around in the city without being accompnied by a member of the German military organization, or to speak with the inhabitants of the place or to make photographs; and in reality during the time we were there, we did not have any contact with the local inhabitants.
In the first day of our arrival in the Katyn woods, that is to say, on the 29th of April, in the first half of the day, before dinner, in the locality where these graves were found, there came under German escort several Russian civilians. Immediately upon our arrival at Smolensk, we were handed personally some of the local witnesses who were half-Russian. When those witnesses were brought to the Katyn woods, we were told that those witnesses were the ones who gave the testimony which was submitted to us. There was no regular interrogation of the witnesses depositions. Professor Orses started the conversation with the witnesses and he told us that he could speak Russian because he was a prisoner of war in Russia during the first World War. He began to speak with the man who was not very young, whose name, so far as I can remember, was Andrev. This entire conversation lasted a few minutes only. As our Bulgarian language is rather similar to the Russian, I tried also to speak to some of the witnesses.
THE PRESIDENT: Don't you think that should be left to cross examination? Can't these details be left to cross examination?
COLONEL SMIRNOV: Yes, Mr. President. BY COLONEL SMIRNOV: reply to the next question. During the signing of this general report of the entire commission, was it quite clear to you that the murders were perpetrated in Katyn not earlier than the last quarter of 1941 and that 1940, in any ease, was excluded?
A Yes, this was absolutely clear to me and thatis why I didn't make any deductions in the report which I made on my findings in the Katyn woods. incorrect according to you? report, I should like to say a few words on how it was made up and how it was signed.
Q Excuse me, but will you please reply to one question. Was this report in reality actually signed on the 30th of April in the town of Smolensk or was it signed on another date and at another place? signed on the 1st of May at mid-day, at the airport which was called "Bella".
Q Under what conditions was it signed; will you please tell the Tribunal. which took place in the laboratory of Butz. It was on the 30th of April after mid-day. At this conference all the delegates were present, all the Germans who arrived with us from Berlin, Butz and his assistants, General Holm, the main doctor (Stabsarzt) of the Smolensk sector, and also some other Germans who were unknown to me, the military personnel. Butz stated that the Germans were only present as hosts but actually the most important place was occupied by General Helm and the work was performed on the direction on Butz. The secretary of the conference was the personal secretary of Butz who took down the report; however, I never saw this report. At this conference Butz and Orses came with a project, a sort of a protocol; however, I was not aware that somebody entrusted to them the writing of such a protocol. This protocol was read by Butz and then a question was raised regarding the stage and the age of the young Pines which were in the clearings of the Katyn woods. Butz considered that inthese clearings -
Q Excuse me for interrupting you. Did you have any evidence that the graves were actually found in these clearings?
A No. When we were present, we didn't find or discover any now graves. So far as some of these delegates stated, they said that they were not competent to express their opinion regarding the age of these trees. General Helm gave us an order to bring a German to this place who was a specialist on forestry. He showed us the cut of the trunk of a tree and from the number of circles in this trunk, he deduced that the age of the trees were five years.
Q Excuse me; I interrupt you again. You, yourself, can you state here that this tree was actually growing on top of the grave and not from any other place in the woods?
with small trees and that actually, when we were coming hack to Smolensk, there was a little tree being transported in the bus with us but I don't know whether there were any graves from the place where this tree was cut. As I have already stated, there were no excavations of graves in our presence. not to detain the attention of the Tribunal on the details. editorial notes, the contents of which I cannot remember at present. Then, it was entrusted to Orses and Butz to write up the protocol in final form. The signing of the protocol had to take place on the same night at a banquet which was organized on the same evening in a German hospital.
A (Continued) At this banquet Buts arrived with a report and he started reading it, but the actual signing did not take place for reasons which are still not clear to no. It was stated to us that this report would have to be rewritten, so the banquet lasted until three or four in the morning. Then Professor Pangier told me that the Germans were not pleased with the contents of the report and that they were carrying on conversations with Berlin an that, in general, perhaps there would be no report at all. morning, we took off from Smolensk without having signed the report I personally had the impression that there would be no report at all issued and I was very pleased at that fact. On the way to Smolensk, also on our way back, some of the delegates asked to stop over in Warsaw in order to see the city, but we were told that it was impossible in view of the military situation. would like you not to speak of it. was called Bela. The airport was apparently a military air field because I saw some temporary military barracks. We had dinner there and immediately after dinner, not withstanding the fact that we were not told that the signing of the report would happen on the way to Berlin, we were submitted copies of the protocol to be sign During the signing many military persons were present, because the were no other people except military personnel on this air field. I was rather struck by the fact that the reports were ready but we not submitted to us for signing in Smolensk, but this didn't wait so that we might sign these reports in Berlin a few hours later. They were submitted to us for signing at this isolated military air field. This was the reason why I didn't sign the report, in spite of my opinion at which I arrived during the autoposy which I perfermed at Smolensk. in the protocol are incorrect?
where you couldn't do better?
THE PRESIDENT: Colonel Smirnov, I don't think it is proper for you to put leading questions to him. He has stated the fact. It is useless to go on stating conclusions about it.
COLONEL SMIRNOV: Very well, Mr. President. I have no further questions to put to the witness.
THE PRESIDENT: Does anyone want to cross examine him?
DR. STAHMER: Attorney Stahmer, for Goering.
Mr. President, I should like to ask a legal question first. Each side was to call three witnesses before the Court. This witness, as I understand it, has not only testified to facts but has also made statements which can be called an export judgment. He has not only expressed himself as an expert witness, as we say in German law, but also as an expert. If the Court is to listen to these statements made by the witness as an export, I should like to have the opportunity for the defense also to call in experts.
THE PRESIDENT: No, Dr. Stahmer, the Tribunal will not hear more than three witnesses on either side. You could have called any expert you wanted or any member of the experts who made the German examination. It was your privilege to call any of them. BY DR. STAHMER: of 1927; on the University faculty of Legal Medicine in Sofia, firs of all as a Professor, and now I am Professor of Legal Medicine at Sofia University. I am not a regular professor at the University. This work could be explained by the German word "Ausserordentlicher Professor" (Extraordinary Professor). that you were to participate in a political action without consideration of your scientific knowledge?
about the Katyn question as a political one. time?
AAt what time?
Q At the time when you went to Katyn? you to explain your question. one, the task which you had to carry out there? political task and therefore I tried not to participate in it. task?
A Yes; from everything I read in the Press. rived at Katyn the graves had already been opened and certain corps had been laid out. Do you mean to say that some corpses did not come from the graves at all?
A No, I didn't want to say that, because it was obvious that the corpses were taken out of the graves and I saw that some corpse were still in the graves. no indication that the corpses viewed by the Commission did not come from the mass graves?
THE PRESIDENT: He didn't know where they came from, did he?
THE WITNESS: I didn't have the impression that they were not taken out of the graves which were already excavated. BY DR. STAHMER: to the results of the legal medical examination of this International Commission, a protocol, a record was taken down. You have furthermore stated that you signed this protocol.
DR. STAHMER: Mr. President, this protocol is contained in its full text in the official material published by the German government on this incident. I ask that this evidence, this so-called White Book, be admitted as evidence. I will submit it to the Court later.
THE PRESIDENT: We will adjourn now.
(A recess was taken.)
THE PRESIDENT: Dr. Stahmer, the Tribunal rules that you may cross examine this witness upon the report, and the protocol will be admitted in evidence if you offer it in evidence under Article 19 of the Charter. That, of course, involves that we do not take judicial notice of the report under Article 21 of the Charter, but that it is offered under Article 19 of the Charter, and therefore it will either come through the earphones in cross examination, or such parts of the protocol as you wish to have translated. BY DR. STAHMER:
Q. Witness, was the protocol or the record signed by you and the other experts in the same way in which it is included in the German White Book?
A. Yes, the record of the protocol which is included in the German White Book is the same protocol which I compiled. A long time after my return to Sofia I was sent two copies of the protocol by General Director Dietz. These two copies were typewritten, and I was requested to make necessary corrections and additions if I judged it necessary, but I left it without corrections and it was printed without any comments on my part.
Q. Just now -
COLONEL SMIRNOV: (Interposing): Mr. President, I believe that there is a slight muddle here. The witness is answering in regard to the individual protocol, whereas Dr. Stahmer is questioning him on the general protocol.
DR. STAHMER: Mr. President, I would have cleared this matter up on my own account. BY DR. STAHMER:
Q. Do you mean your own protocol?
A. Yes, I mean my protocol which I compiled myself.
Q. What is the relationship of this to the general protocol or record, or rather, when did you receive a copy of this general protocol or record?
A. I received a copy of the general protocol in Berlin when as many copies were issued as had been signed by the delegates. There were a number of delegates.
Q. Just a little while ago you stated that Russian witnesses had been taken before the commission in the forest of Katyn, but that, however, there ha been no opportunity afforded the experts to talk with these witnesses concerning the question at hand.
and I quote:
"The commission interrogated several indigenous Russian witnesses personally. Among other things, these witnesses confirmed that in the months of March and April 1940, almost daily large railroad transport trains containing Polish officers arrived at the railroad station near Katyn by the name of Nersova. These railroad trains were emptied; the inmates were taken in lorries to the forest of Katyn, and they were never seen afterwards. Furthermore, official notice was taken of the testimony and statements, and the sites containing the evidence were inspected."
A. As I already said, during the questioning which occurred on the spot, those two witnesses spoke to Orses. They actually said that they saw how Polish officers were brought to the railroad station of Nersova and that later they no longer saw them.
THE PRESIDENT: Dr. Stahmer, the Tribunal thinks the witness ought to be given an opportunity of seeing the report when you put passages in it to him
THE WITNESS: Yes.
THE PRESIDENT: Havn't you got another copy of it?
DR. STAHMER: I'm sorry, Mr. President, I don't have an additional copy, no.
THE PRESIDENT: Can the witness read German?
THE WITNESS: No, but anyhow I can understand the contents of the record and report.
THE PRESIDENT: You mean you can read it?
THE WITNESS: Yes, I can also read it.
THE PRESIDENT: Can the witness read German, do you mean?
THE WITNESS: Yes, I can read German.
THE PRESIDENT: Dr. Stahmer, if you have only got one copy, I think you had better have it back. You can't have the book passing to and fro like that.