THE MARSHAL: If it please the Tribunal, the defendant Hess is absent,
THE PRESIDENT: Dr. Stahmer. BY DR. STAHMER: testimony, if I observed correctly. Will you tell me whether that was so or not?
A I was not reading anything. I have only a plan of the courtroom in my hand.
Q It looked to me as though you were reading off your answers. How can you explain the fact that the interpreter already had your answer in his hands? beforehand. The testimony which I am giving was known to the Commission beforehand and during the preliminary questioning.
Q Do you know the little castle on the Dnieper, the little villa? Didn't you understand me or hear me? Do you know the little castle on the Dnieper, the little villa on the Dnieper?
A I do not know which villa you mean. There were quite a number of villas on the Dnieper. the Dnieper River.
A I do not quite understand which house you mean. The shore of the Dnieper is quite wide and I do not understand your question. thousand Polish officers had been buried?
A I was not there. I did not see the Katyn burial grounds.
Q Had you never been in the forest of Katyn?
Q Do you know where this burial site was located? not be there since the occupation?
Q How do you know that the little forest was not fenced in?
the entire district, as I already stated, was not surrounded by any barrier but according to hearsay I knew that after the occupation, access to this forest was prohibited by the German High Command, by the German local command. forest a sanitarium or a convalescent home of the GPU was located? put my question to you a little bit age?
A I,myself, had never been in that house. In general, access to that house was only allowed to the families of the employees and of the convalescents. As to the other persons, there was no need for then to go there.
Q The house therefore was closed off? go there since he was not meant to go to rest there. This was not a rest home for him but the garden and part itself was not fenced off.
Q Weren't there guards located there? the Polish officers, is that witness still alive?
Q Yes. When you read off your testimony before, it wasn't easy for me to follow. Mayor Minchagen, is he still alive? retreat, and I remained, and the fate of Minchagen is unknown to me.
THE PRESIDENT: Dr. Stahmer, you are not entitled to say to the witness "when you read your testimony off" just now, because he denied that he read his testimony off and there is no evidence that he has read it off. BY DR. STAHMER: from the camp at Kosieltsk?
Q Do you know that place and locality?
A Do you mean Kosieltsk? I do, yes. In 1940, in the month of August, at the and of August, I spent my leave there with my wife. present in a Russian prisoner-of-war camp?
Q Up until what time did these prisoners of war remain there? there. I can say that with great certainty. came into German hands? according to rumors, this was the case; that is, of course, not my own testimony and I myself did not see it but I heard it. happened to them?
Q Did you find out or learn what happened to them? were shot upon the order of the German Command.
Q And where did these shootings take place?
A The defense counsel has apparently not heard my answers. I already testified that the Mayor Minchagen said that they were shot in the neighborhood of Smolensk but where he did not say. prisoners?
A Do you mean to say, during my conversation with Minchagen? I do not understand your question. Do you mean to say during my conversation with Minchagen? The exact number was not given.
Q What was the figure quoted to you by this?
A Minchagen did not quote the figure to me. I repeat that this conversation took place on the last days of September 1941.
anyone who witnessed the shooting or was present there? circumstances that I doubt any Russian witness would be present there.
THE PRESIDENT: Witness, you should answer the question directly. You were asked: "Can you give the names of anybody who was there?" You can answer that yes or no and then you can add any explanations necessary.
THE WITNESS: I will follow your instructions, Mr. President.
THE PRESIDENT: Can you give the name of anybody who saw the executions?
THE WITNESS: No, I cannot name anybody who had seen it personally. BY DR. STAHMER:
Q. Through what German organization or unit did the shootings allegedly take place?
A. I cannot give the precise name of that unit, but we heard that it was the Pioneer Battalion which was located there; but of course I do not know the exact location of the German troops.
Q. Were Poles involved here who came from the Camp at Kosieltsk?
A. In general, at that moment during our conversation, they were not connected, but I do not know whether there were any other prisoners of war who had not been previously at Kosieltsk.
Q. Did you yourself see Polish officers?
A. I did not know them myself but my students saw them and they told me that they had seen them in 1941.
Q. And where did they see them?
A. On the road where they were cutting out work at the beginning of summer, 1941.
Q. In what general area or location?
A. In the district of the highway Moscow-Minsk, a little bit to the west of Smolensk.
Q. Can you testify whether the Russian commander in chief had a report to the effect that Polish prisoners at the camp at Kosieltsk had fallen into the hands of the Germans?
A. No, I have no knowledge of that.
Q. What is the name of the German official with whom you talked at the Commandantur, the military government office?
A. Not in the Commandantur, but in theoffice of Minchigan. His name was Hirschfeld.
Q. What was his position?
A. He was a Sonderfuehrer of the 7th Detachment of the German Commandantur in the town of Smolensk.
DR. STAHMER: I have no further questions, Mr. President - just another question of two, Mr. President.
BY DR. STAHMER:
Q. Because of your collaboration with the German authorities, were you because of that fact punished by the Russian government?
A. No, I was not.
Q. Are you at Liberty?
A. Not only at liberty but, as I have already reported, I am at the present time a professor of two high schools.
Q. Therefore, you are back in office?
A. Yes.
THE PRESIDENT: Colonel Smirnov, do you wish to re-examine?
COLONEL SMIRNOV: No, Mr. President, I have no further questions to put to the witness.
THE PRESIDENT: Witness, do you know whether the man, whose name I understand to be Minchagen, was told about these matters himself or whether he had any direct knowledge of them?
THE WITNESS: According to the words of Minchagen, I understood quite definitely that he had heard that himself at the Commandantur from von Schwaetz who was the commandant at the beginning of the occupation. At the beginning of the occupation the commandant was von Schwaetz.
THE PRESIDENT: Then the witness may retire.
COLONEL SMIRNOV: Mr. President, I beg the Tribunal to allow me to call as witness Professor of the Sofia University, Marko Antonova Markov, a Bulgarian citizen.
THE PRESIDENT: Are you the interpreter?
THE INTERPRETER: Yes, sir.
THE PRESIDENT: Will you give us your full name?
THE INTERPRETER: Ludomir Valev.
THE PRESIDENT: Will you repeat this oath after me:
best of my skill the evidence to be given by the witness.
(The Interpreter repeated the oath). the Interpreter as follows: BY THE PRESIDENT:
Q. Will you give us your full name, please?
A. Dr. Marko Antonova Markov.
Q. Will you repeat this oath after me: being aware of my responsibility before God and the Law, and that I will withhold and add nothing.
THE PRESIDENT: You may sit down.
MR. DODD: Mr. President, before this witness is examined, I would like to call to the attention of the Tribunal the fact that Dr. Stahmer asked the preceding witness a question which I understood went: How did it happen that the interpreters had the questions and the answers to your questions if you didn't have them before you. Now that question inplied that Dr. Stahmor had some information that the interpreters did have the answers to the questions, and I sent a note up to the interpreters and I have the answer from the Lieutenant in charge that no one there had any answers or questions, and I think it should be made clear on the record.
THE PRESIDENT: Yes, I think so, too.
DR. STAHMER: Outside the court room I was advised that this fact existed. Of course if it is not a fact, I wish to retract my statement. I was from authentic sources although I did not recall the name of the person who gave me this information; but I did receive this information.
THE PRESIDENT: Such statements ought not be made Stahmer until they have verified it.
COLONEL SMIRNOV : May I begin the cross examination of this witness , Mr. President ?
THE PRESIDENT : The examination, yes. BY COLONEL SMIRNOV : the Tribunal with too many details, under what conditions you were included in the so-called International Medical Commission created by the Germans in the month of April 1933 for the examination of the graves of Polish officers in the Katyn woods. you and your own answer.
A This occured at the end of April 1933. While working in the Medical Legal Institute where I am still working, I was called to the telephone by Dr. Guerow.
THE PRESIDENT : The witness must stop before the interpreter begins. Otherwise, the voices come over the microphone together. So the interpreter must wait until the witness has finished his answer before he repeats it. 1943 he was called on the telephone.
A (Continuing) : I was called to the telephone by Dr. Guerow who was a secretary of Dr. Philo who was then Prime Minister of Bulgaria. I was told that as a representative of the Bulgarian Government I was to participate in some sort of international medical commission which would investigate certain corpses dicovered in the forest of Katyn, the corpses of Polish officers. institute who was away in the country. Dr. Guerow told me that according to an order of the Minister of Foreign Affairs who had sent the telegram, I would have to go to replace him there. Guerow told me to come to the Ministry. There I asked him if I could refuse to comply with this order. He answered that they were in a state of war and that the government could send anybody wherever and whenever it was deemed necessary. Affairs, Schuchmarnov. Schuchmarnov repeated this order and told me that we were to examine the corpses of thousands of Polish officers. I answered that to examine thousands of corpses would take several months, but Schuchmarnov said that the Germans had already exhumed a great number of these corpses and that I would have to go together with other members of the commission in order to see what had already been done, and in order to sign, as Bulgarian representative, the protocol which had already been compiled.
who arranged all the technical sides of the trip. flew off to Berlin. There I was met by an employee of the Bulgarian Legation and I was taken to the Hotel Atlon.
Q Please answer the next question : Who took part in this international commission and when did they leave for Katyn ? members of the commission arrived there.
Q Who were they ?
A They were the following. Besides me, there were Dr. Birckler, the chief doctor of the Ministry of Justice and first assistant of the Bucharest University; Dr. Milosawitch, professor for Legal Medicine at Zagreb, who was representative for Croatia; Professor Palmiera, who was Professor for Legal Medicine at Naples; Dr. Orses, Professor of Legal Medicine at Budapest; Dr.Schubeck, Professor of Pathological Anatomy at Bratislava for Slovakia; Dr. Haja, Professor for Legal Medicine at Prague, who represented the so-called Protectorate of Bohemia and Moravia; Professor Mavin, Professor of Legal Medicine, Geneva, representative for Switzerland; Dr. Sperleres, Professor for Eye Illnesses, who represented Belgium; Dr. De Burlett, Professor of Anatomy, representing Holland Dr. Transe, First assistant for the Institute for Legal Medicine at the Copenhagen University, representing Denmark; Dr. Saxein from Helsinki, Finland who was also Professor for Pathological Anatomy. that he was a personal representative of President Laval. take any part in the work of the commission.
Q Did all these persons go to Katyn ?
Q Who besides the members of the commission left for Katyn with you ?
We took off in two airplanes, about 13 to 20 persons were in each.
Q Maybe you can see who exactly was there? us. representing the Ministry of Public Health. There were also press representatives, and also representatives of the Minister of Foreign Affairs.
Q I will interrupt you. Will you tell us now when did the commission arrive in Katyn? evening. work days? 1943 and on the first of May, in the morning, we left Smolensk. the mass graves in the Katyn forest? of the day on the 29th of April.
Q I mean how many hours did you spend near the mass graves? tion of one of the graves?
A No graves were exhumed in our presence. We were shown only several graves which had already been exhumed before we arrived. corpses were already laid out, is that right?
A Quite right. Near those graves were exhumed corpses already laid out there. scientific examination of the corpses allowed the members of the commission? scientific, legal, medical examination was the autopsy carried out by certain members of the commission who were themselves legal medical experts but there were seven or eight of us who could answer to those qualification and as far as I recall only eight corpses were opened. Each of us opened one corpse, except Professor Heicker, who opened two corpses.
Our further activity during these two days bore the character of a rapid examination under the direction of Germans or even a tourist walk and we saw the open graves and we were shown the peasant's house, a few miles distant from the Katyn forest, where in glass cabinets papers and objects of various sorts were kept. We were told that these papers and objects had been found in the clothes of the corpses which had been exhumed. shown to you when they were already in glass cases? before we arrived. documents, for instance to see whether the papers were impregnated with any acids coming from the corpses, from the disintergration of the corpses or to carry out any other kind of scientific examination? As I have already told you, these papers were exhibited in glass cases and we did not even touch them. yes or no, to a question which I have already put to you briefly. Were the conditions which were created for you and for the members of the commission, were these conditions quite adequate for a scientific examination? quate for a complete and objective scientific examination. The only thing which bore the character of a scientific nature was the autopsy. corpses which were discovered only eight were opened by members of the commission?
Q Please answer the next question. In what condition were these corpses? I would like you to describe the state in which they were and also the state of the inner organs.
graves I can only judge according to the state of the corpse which I myself opened. The condition of this corpse was, as far as I could ascertain, the same as that of all the other corpse. The skin was very well preserved, was partly dried up, of a brown-red color and in some parts there were blue markings from the clothes. The nails and hair, in most eases, had already fallen out. In the head of the corpse I opened there was a snail shot, a bullet wound in the nape of the head. Only an unformed mass remained of the brain. The muscles were still preserved to such an extent that one could even see the heart valves. The inner organs were also preserved in a good state of preservation. But, of course, they were dried up, bent and darkened. The stomach bore the trace of some sort of contents. A part of the fat had turned into wax. We were impressed by the fact that while being dragged brutally, no members had detached themselves. I dictated on the spot of the examination a protocol. A similar protocol was dictated by the other members of the commission. This memorandum was published by the German under number 827.
Q I would like you to answer the following question. Did the legal medical exports testify to the fact that they were in the graves already three years? corpse I myself had opened. The condition of this corpse, as I have already stated was typical of the average condition of the Katyn corpses. These corpses were far from disintegrated since the fat was only beginning to turn into wax. In my opinion these corps were buried for a far shorter period of time than three years. I considered that these corpses had been buried not more than a year or a year and a half.
of a core Southern climate--you considered that the corpses that were exhumed in the Katyn Forest had been lying under the earth for not more than a year and a half? Did I understand you correctly?
A Yes, quite right. I considered that they had been buried for not more than a year and a half.
THE PRESIDENT: The Tribunal will adjourn now.
(The Tribunal adjourned until 1000 hours, 2 July 1946.)
BY COLONEL SMIRNOV: Commission, perform the autopsies of these eight corpses? What date was it exactly? the corpses were in the ground one and a half years? me a brief answer to the following question; make a special art of legal medicine and that this art includes deductions? so far as I know, it is done in the following way: First of all, we give a description and then the deduction. the autopsy? autopsy contained only a description without a conclusion.
Q Why? wanted us to say that the corpses were in the ground for three years. This could have been deduced from the papers which were shown to us in the little peasant hut about which I have already spoken. autopsy?
THE PRESIDENT: Colonel Smirnov, you are interrupting the interpreter all the time. Before the interpreter has finished the answer, you have put another question. It is very difficult for us to hear the interpreter.
COLONEL SMIRNOV: Thank you, Mr. President.
THE WITNESS: Because the objective deduction regarding the autopsy was not in accordance with the official version, I did not make any deductions. BY COLONEL SMIRNOV: submitted to you testified to the fact that the corpses had been in the ground, not three years, but oneyear and a half?
THE PRESIDENT: Colonel Smirnov, you must remember that it is a double translation, and unless you pause more than you are pausing, your voice comes in upon the interpreter's and we cannot hear the interpreter.
COLONEL SMIRNOV: Very well, Mr. President.
THE WITNESS: Yes, thatis quite correct. BY COLONEL SMIRNOV: the time the corpses had been in the graves? excavations in the Katyn Woods, there were differences of opinion regarding the time the corpses had been buried. Some of them, as for instance, Professor Heim, spoke about immaterial things; as for instance, that one of these who were shot had bruises. Some of the others, as for instance, Professor Bueckle from Bucharest, cut off some hair from the corpse in order to determine the age of the corpse. I think that that is most immaterial. Professor Balmieri, on the basis of the autopsy that he performed, said that the corpse had been in the ground over a year but no could not determine exactly how long.
corpses remained in the ground was Professor Miroslavic from Zagreb, and he said it was three years. However, when the German book regarding Katyn was published, I read the result of his objective consultation, and his statement regarding the corpse on which he had performed the autopsy. I had the impression that the corpse on which he had performed the autopsy did not differ in its stage of decomposition from the other corpses. This led me to think that his statement that the corpses had remained in the ground for three years was not a true fact in accordance with his description. the members of the Commission? I should like to say that this term is not very well known in general criminal medicine. I should like you to give us an exact explanation of what Professor Orses, of Budapest, means by the term "pserdo callous."
THE PRESIDENT: Would you repeat that question? BY COLONEL SMIRNOV: submitted to the members of the Commission? I should like to remark that as this term is not very well known in the books on legal medicine, I should like to stop and give a detailed explanation of what Professor Orses means by the term "pserdo callous."
THE PRESIDENT: What are you saying the skulls had? You asked if there were many skulls with something or other.
COLONEL SMIRNOV: It is "pserdo callous." It is a Latin term of some sort of corn which is formed on the inside of the skull.
THE PRESIDENT: Can you spell the word in Latin?
(Colonel Smirnov submitted a paper to the President.)
THE PRESIDENT: What you have written here is p-s-e-r-d-o. Do you mean p-s-e-u-d-o, which means false?
COLONEL SMIRNOV: Yes, that is right, "pseudo."
THE PRESIDENT: Now then, put your question again, and try to put it shortly.
COLONEL SMIRNOV: Yes.
BY COLONEL SMIRNOV: were submitted to the members of the Commission? Will you please give an exact explanation of this term of Professor Orses? conference of the delegates. That took place on the 30th of April, in the afternoon, in the building where the field laboratory of Smolensk was located.
Professor Orses understood the term "pseudo callous" as meaning some formation of indissoluble salt of calcium and other salts on the inside part of the skull. Professor Orses stated that, according to his observations in Hungary, this happened if the corpses remained in the ground for at least three years. When Professor Orses stated this at the scientific conference, none of the delegates said anything either for or against it. I deduced from that, that this term "pseudo callous" was also unknown to the other delegates, just as it was to me.
Q (interposing) I should like to answer this for me. What number did the corpse have from this skul was taken which had signs of pseudo callous? book bore the number 526. From this I deduced that this corpse was exhumed from the grave before our arrival at Katyn, because all the other corpses on which we performed autopsies on the 30th of April had numbers which ran over 800. It was explained to us that as soon as a corpse was exhumed it immediately got a special number placed on it.
Q Tell me this, please. Did you notice any pseudo callous on the skulls of these corpses on which you, as well as your colleagues, performed autopsies? instead of brain in the head there was some sort of gruel-like mass, but I never noticed any pseudo callous in the skull. The other delegates-- after the explanation, which they supported -- did not state that they found any pseudo callous in the other skulls. Even Butz, an assistant, who examined the corpses even before our arrival, did not state that they had noticed any pseudo callous.
tained the report of Butz, I noticed that Butz referred to pseudo callous in order to give more weight to his statement that the corpses had remained in the ground for three years. skull was submitted to you which had pseudo callous? of decomposition of the clothing which you found on the corpses. it was impregnated with some things emanating from the decomposition of the corpses. When you pulled the clothing in order to undress the corpses, or when you tried to take off the shoes, the clothing did not tear, nor did the shoes fall apart. I even had the impression that this clothing could have been used again, after having been cleaned. There were some papers contained in the pockets of the clothing of the corpse on which I performed the autopsy, and these papers were also impregnated with corpse fluid.
Some of the Germans who were present when I was performing the autopsy demanded that I should describe these papers and the contents of those papers; but I refused to do it, thinking that his was not the duty of medical men. In substance I had already noticed the previous day when the papers were submitted to us that with the help of the dates contained in those papers, they were trying to make us think that the corpses had remained in the ground for three years. of the corpse. Some of the other delegates who performed the autopsy also found some papers in the clothing of the corpse. The papers which were found in the clothing of the corpse on which I performed the autopsy were put into a record which bore the same number as the corpse, No. 827. Later on, in the book which was published by the Germans, I saw that some of the delegates described the contents of the papers which were found on the corpse.
Q. I should like to ask you to reply to the following question. On what objective medical data did you base your deductions that the corpses remained in the ground not less than three years ?
THE PRESIDENT: ill you put the question again ? I did not understand the question.
COLONEL SMIRNOV: Very well, Mr. President. BY COLONEL SMIRNOV:
Q. I asked on what objective legal medical data did you base the deductions of the protocol of the medical commission that the corpses remained in the ground not less than three years ?
THE PRESIDENT: Has he said that that was the deduction he made ? Not less than three years ?
THE TRIBUNAL (MR. JUSTICE BIDDLE): He has not said that.
THE PRESIDENT: He has not said that at all. He never said that he made the deduction that the corpses remained in the ground not less than three years.
COLONEL SMIRNOV: He did not make this deduction; but Professor Markov together with the other members of the commission, signed a report of the international commission.
THE PRESIDENT: I know; but that is why I ask you to repeat your question.
The question that was translated to us was: On what grounds did you make your deduction that the corpses had remained in the ground not less than three years, which is the opposite of what he says.
Now, will you put the question again?
COLONEL SMIRNOV: Very well. BY COLONEL SMIRNOV:
Q. I am not asking you about your personal reports, but about the general reports of the entire commission, of which, among other people, you were a member?
THE PRESIDENT: Wait a minute. Now, then, Colonel Smirnov, will you put the question agai n,
COLONEL SMIRNOV: Yes, Mr. President. BY COLONEL SMIRNOV:
Q. I was asking, on what grounds, such as objective data of legal medicine, was based not the individual report of Dr. Markov, but the deduction of the eitire commission together, in the international reports that the corpses remained not less than three years in the ground?
A. The collective report of the commission which was signed by all the delegates was very poor regarding the real objective, legal medical data. Concerning the decomposition of the corpses, it was stated--there was only one sentence about this in the report--that the corpses were in various stages of decomposition, and there was no description of the real stage of decomposition. of the witnesses, but not on the actual legal medical data. As far as legal medicine is concerned, they tried to support this deduction by the statement of Professor Orses regarding the finding of psuedo-callous in the skull of the corpse in corpse No. 526. That is my opinion. to arrive at a conclusion regarding the stage of decomposition of thousands of corpses which were contained in the Katyn graves. Fruthermore, the remark of Professor Orses regarding psuedo-callous was made in Hungary; that is to say, in quite different soil and climatic conditions, and only in individual graves and not in mass graves, as was the case in Katyn.