THE PRESIDENT: Wait a minute. The translation was coming through very faintly then. I don't know whether -BY COLONEL SMIRNOV:
Q. I will name a few names of German military employees. Will you please tell me whether they belonged to your unit ?
First Lt. Rex.
A. First Lt. Rex was my regimental adjutant.
Q. Please tell me, before your arrival in Katyn was he employed in that unit ? Was he already assigned to that unit ?
A. Yes, he was there before I came.
Q. He was your adjutant, wasn't he ?
A. Yes, he was my adjutant.
Q. Lt. Hodt ?
A. Lt Hodt is right; but what question are you putting about Lt. Hodt ?
Q. I am only questioning you about whether he was assigned to your unit or not ?
A. Lt Hodt was a member of the regiment. Whether -
Q. Yes, that is what I was asking. He was assigned to the unit which you commanded, wasn't he ?
A. By that I didn't mean to say that he was a member of the regimental staff. He belonged to the regiment. The regiment consisted of three units.
Q. And he lived in the same villa, didn't he ?
A. That I don't know. When I arrived he wasn't living there. He didn't join me -- or rather, I ordered him there not until much later.
Q. I will ennumerate a few other family names. N.C.O. Roser, Sergeant Lummert, Storekeeper Giesecke; these were employed who were located in the villa ?
A. May I ask you to mention the names individually once more and I will give you individual answers.
Q. Sergeant Lummert ?
A. Yes.
Q. N.C.O. Roser ?
A. Yes.
Q. And I believe Storekeeper Giesecke ?
A. That man's name was Giesecken.
Q. Yes, that is right. That means that all these were your people or at least they belonged to your unit, didn't they ?
A. Yes.
Q. But you nevertheless assert that you did not know what these people were doing in September and October, 1941 ?
A. As I wasn't there, I can't tell you for certain.
COLONEL SMIRNOV: Thank you.
THE PRESIDENT: We will adjourn now.
(A recess was taken.)
COLONEL SMIRNOV : Mr. President, since the witness has stated that he cannot give any testimony concerning the period of October-November 1941, I will limit myself to very short questions.
BY COLONEL SMIRNOV : the city with respect to the highway Smolensk-Witebsk. Was the countryside very far from the highway Smolensk-Witebsk ? memory, I would estimate there that the graves would be 200 to 300 meters directly west, on the road to Dnieper Castle, 200 to 300 meters south of the road Smolensk-Witebsk. An additional 600 metals away you would find Dnieper Gastle. west of Smolensk, According to the scale, one to one thousand, as far as I am able to set this down accurately from memory the site of these graves was 200 to 300 meters south, and an additional 600 meters south, directly on the northern bend of the Dnieper, you would find our regimental staff quarters in the Dnieper Castle. Witebsk by about 600 meters.
A No, that is not correct. What I said -
Q Please name a more or less exact figure. What was the distance between the highway and the countryside, please ?
A In my testimony I just mentioned it, 200 to 300 meters. That was the distance to the graves, and it was an additional 600 meters to the castle. Therefore, it was approximately 900 to 1,000 meters. It might have been 800 meters, but that is the approximate distance which is shown in this sketch which I made.
THE PRESIDENT : I am not following this. Your question Colonel Smirnov, was : How far was it from the road to what you called the countryside, didn't you ?
COLONEL SMIRNOV : No, Mr. President, I asked how far was the countryside from the highway Smolensk-Witebsk.
THE PRESIDENT : What do you mean by the "countryside" ?
COLONEL SMIRNOV : The Headquarters of the unit which was located in a villa, and this villa was located not far from the Dnieper, at about 900 meters from the highway. I would like to know how far the staff was located from the highway, and how far from the highway the graves were located.
THE PRESIDENT : What you want to know is : How far was the house in which the headquarters was situated from the highway ? Is that right ?
COLONEL SMIRNOV : Yes, that is exactly what I wanted to know, Mr.President.
THE WITNESS : You put two questions to me : first of all, how far were the graves from the highway; and secondly, how far was the house from the highway; what was the distance. I will repeat my answer once more. BY COLONEL SMIRNOV :
Q One minute please. I asked you formerly only concerning the house, but now I will ask you about the graves. How far were these mass graves from the highway Smolensk-Witebsk ?
A From 200 to 300 meters. It might have been 350 meters. highway connecting two important centers, is that true ?
A Yes, indeed. There was a distance of 200 to 300 meters, and this highway was open to traffic during the entire time that I was there.
Q That was the substance of my question. Now, please tell me : Was the Katyn Wood a forest, or was it, rather, a park ? This little forest of Katyn is fenced in about, and it is a wooded terrain of one square kilometer. This is a forest of mixed growth, older and younger trees. Many birch trees were contained in this little woods. However, there were clearings in this woods, and I assume 30 to 40 per cent was cleared, and you could see stumps which had just been felled.
Under no circumstances could you describe this wood as a park. Fighting had taken place in this woods, for there were trenches, trench holes, which could still be seen. it was a small grove in the immediate vicinity of the highway Smolensk-Witebsk.
Is that so ?
A No, it is not correct to say that. Itwas a forest. The entire Katyn forest was a forest which started with our groves and extended beyond that. This entire Katyn forest was a mixed forest. Part of it had been fenced in, and this part, extending over one square kilometer, was what was called the little Katyn forest by us, but it did belong to this entire wooded region south of the highway. The forest began with our little forest and continued to the west.
Q I am not interested in the general characteristics of the woods. I would like you to answer the following question : Were the mass graves in this grove or not ? our region, and it was a clearing in the woods. Young trees were found there. highway Smolensk-Witebsk, is that correct ? directly west of the incoming road leading to the Dnieper Castle. I characterized this spot through a rather fat white dot.
Q One more question. Do you know whether the highway Smolensk-Witebsk existed before the German occupation of Smolensk, or was it constructed after the beginning of the occupation ? covered with snow, the entire countryside. I gained the impression that this was an old road, whereas the narrow-gage railroad Minsk-Moscow was a newer highway. That was the impression I gained. the grove.
A I cannot give the exact day and fix it exactly. My soldiers told me about this, and on one occasion when I was riding past there, perhaps at the beginning of January 1942 or the end of December 1941, I saw this cross rising above the snow. I saw this cross at that time.
Q You saw it already in 1941 or at the beginning of 1942, is that correct?
1 July M LJG 8-1 when a wolf brought you to this cross. Was it in the winter or summer and what was the precise date?
Q In 1943? And around the cross you saw bones, hadn't
A No, I did not see bones first of oil. In order to find out whether I had not been mistaken about seeing awolf, for it seemed quite impossible so near to Smolensk there whould be a wolf, together with a hunter I examined the tracks and I found a place where a wolf had pawed. However, the ground was frozen hard. Snow was on the ground and I did not see anything further. Only later, after there had been a thaw, did my men find some bones. However, this was months later and then I showed these bones to a physician and he said that those were human bones. Then I said, that most likely we are concerned with a grave which is left over from the fighting and I told him that the war registration officer would have to take care of the graves just as we were taking care of other graves. That was the reason why I talked with this gentleman. But only when the snow t hawed and melted did that time come about -
Q By the way, did you personally see the Katyn graves?
A Open or before they were opened?
Q Open? constantly for, after all, they were duly west of the incoming read, perhaps thirty meters west. Therefore, I could not go along this road without seeing these graves.
Q I am interested in the following question. Do you remember what was the depth of the layer of dirt which covered the human bodies in these graves?
A That I do not know. I have already said that through the stench which we had to suffer which lasted for several weeks, I was revolted to such an extent that when I rode past I closed the windows of my car and rushed through as fast as I could.
1 July M LJG 8-2 whether the layer of dirt which separated the corpses was thick or thin, was several centimeters or will you estimate it was several motors thick? What do you think about it? Maybe Professor Butz told you in this connection about the layer of dirt covering the corpses. region which was almost half as large as Greater Germany. I was on the road a great deal and my work was not chiefly at the position of the regiment where we were stationed. Therefore, in general, from Monday or Tuesday until Saturday I was with my unit and for that reason, when I traveled through I did cast a glance into these graves but I was not especially interested in the details and I did not talk with Professor Butz about such details. In any case, I do not remember this particularly. it is clear that the bodies lay at a depth of one and a half to two meters and I wonder where you found such a wolf who could dig up such a deep ditch.
A I did not find this wolf. I saw this wolf. about the graves in 1941, you started the exhumation only in March 1943 ?
A That was not a matter of my concern. That was a matter with which the army group had to concern itself. I have already told you that in the course of the year 1942 the stories became increasingly frequent. I heard about these matters frequently and I spoke to Colonel von Gersthoff in this matter and he suggested or he hinted at the fact that he knew about this matter and thereupon my obligation ended for I had reported what I had seen and heard and apart from that, this entire matter did not concern me and I did not concern myself with it. It was not my business. I had enough other worries.
Q And now the last question. Please tell me with what 1 July M LJG 8-3 couple you had this conversation and where this couple was located and what was the name of the couple who told you about the shootings in the Katyn woods?
north from the end of the incoming road to the Vitebsk road. They lived in a rather small house. Their names I do not recall.
Q. So you do not remember the name of this couple?
A. No, I do not recall the name.
Q. So you heard, about the Katyn events from a couple whose name you do not know, and you did not hear about it from any other of the local inhabitants?
A. Please repeat the question for me.
Q. Consequently, you heard about this event of Katyn only from this couple, whose name you do not remember and you did not hear anything about it from other local inhabitants, is that right ?
A. I personally heard this story only from this couple. My soldiers, on the other hand, told me the stories which were current amongst the other inhabitants.
Q. Do you know that during the investigation of the Katyn affair, or of the Katyn provocation by the German police, there were posters on the streets of Smolensk promising an award to the man who could give any testimony concerning the event? It was signed by Lieutenant Foss.
A. I did not see that announcement myself. Lieutenant Foss is know to me by name only.
Q. And the very last question. Do you know the report of the Extraordinary State Commission concerning Katyn?
A. Do you mean the Russian White Paper when you mention this report? Is that the same thing?
Q. No, I am thinking of the Soviet Extraordinary Commission report, concerning Katyn, the Soviet report.
A. Yes, I read that report.
Q. Therefore, you know also that the Extraordinary State Commission named you amongst the persons who are reponsible for the crimes in Katyn, You know about that?
A. It states that there is a Lt. Colonel Arnes. COLONEL SMIRNOV: I have no further questions. THE PRESIDENT: Dr. Stahmer, do you wish to re-examine?
BY DR. STAHMER:
Q. Witness, just a little while ago you said that you did not know when Lieutenant Hodt joined your staff. Do you know when he joined the regiment?
A. I know that during the Russian campaign in Russia, and that is from the beginning of the campaign, he belonged to the regiment.
Q. That is, from the beginning he belonged to the regiment?
A. Yes. With the beginning of the Russian campaign, he was a member of this regiment.
Q. Just one more question dealing with your discussion with Professor Butz. Did Professor Butz tell you anything about the date on which these things ended?
A. He told me about the spring of 1940 and he showed me this diary. I looked at the diary and I saw the dates, but I do not recall at this point, in detail, just which dates were contained therein. But these dates ended with the spring of 1940.
Q. There are no entries at other times?
A. Professor Butz told me that documents which night make one conclude as to a later date had not been found, and according to his conviction, he said that these events must have taken place in the spring of 1940.
DR. STAHMER: Mr. President, I have no further questions to put to the witness.
BY THE TRIBUNAL (General Nikitchenko):
Q. When do you contend that Professor Butz told you that the burial of the corpses was in the spring of 1940?
A. I cannot tell you the day exactly, but it was in the spring of 1943, before these excavations had started. I beg your pardon: He told me that he had been instructed to excavate, and during the excavations he was with me on occasions. It may have been in May or the end of April, middle of May, and at that time he told me details about his excavation work, and among other things he told me tht things that I have testified to and stated before this Court. I cannot tell you on just what date Professor Butz visited me.
Q. As I understand you, you said the following things: That Professor Butz arrived in Katyn, when did he arrive in Katyn?
A. In the spring of 1940, Professor Butz came to me and told me that on instructions of the Army Group he was to undertake excavations in my forests, and these excavations were started, and in the course of these excavations -
Q. You say 1940? Or perhaps the translation is wrong. Did I understand you correctly?
A. 1943, in the spring of 1943. In the course of the excavations, a few weeks after the beginning of the excavations, when I was present in this vicinity, Professor Butz visited me and reported to me; or, father, he discussed this matter with me, and on that occasion he told me the things that I have testified to here. It may have been the middle of May 1943.
Q. According to your former testimony, I undertood you to say in answer to a question from Defense Counsel, that Professor Butz contended that the shootings took place in the spring of 1940, before the arrival of the commission for the exhumations. Is that correct?
A. May I repeat once more that Professor Butz-
Q. Do not repeat what you have already said. I am asking you whether it is correct or incorrect. Maybe the translation was incorrect, or maybe your testimony was incorrect at the beginning.
A. I did not understand the question just put to me. That is the reason why I wanted to explain this thing once more. I do not know just what is meant by this last question. May I ask that this question be repeated?
Q. At first, when you were interrogated, I understood you to say that Professor Butz told you that the shootings took place in the spring of 1940, before the arrival of the commission for the exhumations.
A. No, that has hot been understood correctly. I testified that Professor Butz visitied me and told me that he was to undertake excavations, for a small grove was concerned here. These excavations did take place, and six to eight weeks later Professor Butz visited me. Of course, he visited me on other occasions as well, but six to eight weeks later he came to no and told no that he was convinced that on the basis of his findings the date of the shootings could be fixed and that he had fixed this date. The explanations which he gave me may be set to the middle of May.
Q. Were you present when the diary and the other documents were found--the documents that were found by Professor Butz?
A. No.
Q. So, you do not know where he found this diary and the other documents? I mean you personally do not know about it?
A. No, that I do not know. BY THE PRESIDENT:
Q. When did you first report to superior authority the fact that you suspected that there was a grave there?
A. First of all, I was not suspicious. I have already mentioned that fighting had taken place there, and on the basis of what I head heard, I did not pay much attention to this and did not give this matter, or the stories, any credence. I believed that it was soldiers who had died there.
Q. You are not answering my question. I am asking you, when did you first report to superior authority that there was a grave there?
A. In the course of the summder 1942, I spoke With Colonel von Gersthoff, and mentioned these stories. Gerthoff told me that he himself had heard similar stories, and in this fashion my conversation with von Gersthoff was concluded. I believe that he did not give any credence to these tories. That I do not know, however. was the time when those bones were brought ot me, the bones which had been found, and on that occasions I told the officer who was in charge of graves that apparently they were the graves of soldiers who had died or been killed.
That was before Professor Butz had 1 July M LJG 9-1a visited me.
Q Did you rake any report in writing?
Q Never?
THE PRESIDENT: The witness can retire.
DR. STAHMER: Then, as an additional witness, I should like to call Lieutenant Reinhard von Eichborn.
THE PRESIDENT: Yes. testified as follows; BY THE PRESIDENT:
Q Will you state your full name please?
Q Will you repeat this oath after no: the pure turth and will withhold and add nothing.
(The witness repeated the oath.)
THE PRESIDENT: You may sit down. BY DR. STAHMER:
Q Witness, what is your occupation?
Q During this war, were you called to service?
Q And what was your unit?
Q And what was your rank? and at the end, first lieutenant. Theater of the war?
A Yes, from the beginning of the war.
1 July M LJG 9-2a
Q With your regiment? Center--Heeresgruppe Mitte. unit 537? engineering unit 537. Katyn? ferred its headquarters to the region of Smolensk.
Q And before then, where had you been stationed?
A How am I to understand this question?
Q Where did you come from?
THE PRESIDENT: One moment. The witness said 20 September. That does not identify the year. BY DR. STAHMER:
Q What year was this 20 September?
Q At that time was the regiment 537 there already? a staff of the Army Group at about the same time, where then headquarters of the Army Group was, and advanced units had been stationed there a little in advance in order to set up communication?
Q. And where was this staff accommodated ?
A. The staff of Army Group 537 was accommodated in the so-called NieperCastle.
Q. Where was the advance unit ?
A. The advance unit occupied this building -- or at least a part of this advance unit did -- so that they could prepare and insure this building for the regimental staff.
Q. Do you know who was in command of this advance unit ?
A. Lieutenant Hodt was in command of this advance unit.
Q. Then did this advance unit come to Katyn ?
A. Smolensk fell on about the 17th of July 1941. The Army Group had planned to put its headquarters in the vicinity of Smolensk. However, after this group had selected the quarters, immediately after the fall of the city, this region was confiscated. The advance unit arrived at the time this area was confiscated, and that was probably in the second half of July of 1941.
Q. The advance unit was there from July of 1941 until the 20th of September 1941 ?
A. Yes.
Q. And the entire staff was there from the 20th of September, 1941 ?
A. Yes. It may be that a part of the staff arrived somewhat later, but the bulk of the staff arrived on the 20th of September.
THE PRESIDENT: Are you speaking of the staff of the Army Group or the staff of the Signal Regiment ?
THE WITNESS: I am speaking of both staffs, because the moving of large staffs such as of an army group, could not be taken care of in one day; usually a period of two to three days was needed for that. The operations of the signal corps had to be assured, and therefore some of the staff was left behind until the entire staff had been moved. BY DR. STAHMER:
Q. Where was the advance unit accommodated ?
A. At least part of the advance unit was accommodated in the Dnieper Castle. Some of the others were put in spots where the companies were quartered later on. The reason for that was to keep the quarters ready for this regiment until the bulk of the regiment had been moved.
Q. How about the Regimental Staff 537 ?
A. In the Dnieper Castle.
Q. Can you give us the names of the officers who belonged to the regimental staff ?
A. At that time there was Lieutenant-Colonel Bedenck, commanding officer; Lieutenant Rex, adjutant; Lieutenant Hodt, ordnance officer; and Captain Schaefer, who was a signal expert. It may be that one or two other officials were present as well, whose names I do not recall now.
Q. What were the tasks of the regiment ? The other witness has told us about some things. What were the activities of the regimental staff, and how were the activities controlled ?
A. The regiment, which consisted of ten to twelve companies, had to give an exact report each evening as to the work to which the various companies had been put. It was necessary for us to know this so that forces would be at the disposal of new tasks, or could be used for new tasks.
Q. How far were you from the Dnieper Castle ? How far were your accommodations ?
A. Four to five kilometers. I cannot give you the exact distance, however since I always made this distance by truck, but I judge it to be four to five kilometers.
Q. Did you frequently go to Dnieper Castle ?
A. Very frequently, outside of office hours, since I had come from this regiment, knew most of the officers, and was on friendly terms with them.
Q. Can you tell us about the kind and extent of traffic which came to the Dnieper Castle ?
A. In order to judge this, you have to differentiate between persons and things. So far as people were concerned, the traffic was very heavy because the regiment had to be organized very centrally in order to take care of its tasks. Therefore, many couriers came, and commanders of the various companies came to visit the regional staff frequently. On the other hand, there was a heavy traffic of trucks and passenter cars, because the regiment tried to develop its business there, and all sorts of construction work was being carried on there since we regained for quite some time.
Q. Did you know anything about the fact as to whether, 25 to 45 kilometers west of Smolensk, 300 Russian camps with captured Polish officers had been found, which camps allegedly came into German hands ?
A. Polish officers from prisoner of war camps ? That was something I never heard anything about.
Q. Did your Army Group have reports about these Polish camps ?
A. No. I would have noticed that, since the number of prisoners, and especially officers, were reported on, and these reports were submitted to me in the evening, reports which the prisoners made. It was our responsibility to receive these reports and we saw them every evening.
Q. You did not receive a report to that effect ?
A. I never saw such a report from an army group which would have made that report, nor did I ever receive a report from an army group which would have had to transmit this report.
to another office ? and this staff saw to it that official channels were followed. The army group was obligated to give those reports which they had to fill out according to form, and this group took care of the figures concerning prisoners. Therefore, it is quite out of the question. If a number of officers had fallen into the hands of an army group, it would have been impossible for this army group to have transmitted this report in the channel and along the lines that you have just outlined. ship with the officers of this regiment. Did you learn anything through Colonel Bedenck or Colonel Ahrens, or others, to the effect that Polish officers had been shot in Katyn Forest ? I myself had been with this regiment for more than a year. I was in such close relationship with most of the officers that, even outside of official channels, they told me everything that took place. Therefore, it is quite out of the question that an important matter like that would not have come to my attention. On the basis of the training which obtained in the regiment, it is quite impossible that there should not have been at least one who would have come to me immediately to tell me about such things. these orders in the course of your work ? applied to the wireless, and second, to the teletype. Since I was an expert at the latter, it was quite a matter of course that I drafted these reports and submitted them to General Oberhaueser. Therefore, each report which was issued had either been crafted by me, or I had seen it in advance. of war ? office to the regiment. We did not have a report to this effect, nor did we hear about things like that from any other source or through any other channel.
come through your office and through you ? regiment would have been taken away. Since we were very short of men almost every man in the regiment had to be informed about everything, and it would have been quite out of the question that members of the regiment would have been taken away without our knowing about it.
DR. STAHMER : I have no further questions, Mr. President.
DR. KRANZBUEHLER ( Counsel for defendant Doenitz) : Mr. President .
THE PRESIDENT : Dr. Kranzbuehler, whom are you appearing on behalf of
DR. KRANZBUEHLER : For Grand Admiral Doenitz, Mr. President,
THE PRESIDENT : There is no charge made against Grand Admiral Doenitz in connection with this offense at all.
DR. KRANZBUEHLER : Mr. President, the exaggerations and the propaganda connected with them took place at a period of time when Grand Admiral Doenitz was Commander-in-Chief of the Navy. The prosecution alleges that at that time Grand Admiral Doenitz was a member of the Cabinet and had participated in all acts taken by the government. Therefore, I consider him accused in connection with the case Katyn.
THE PRESIDENT : That would mean that we should have to hear examination from everybody who was connected with the Government. The Tribunal has already, pointed out, with reference to Admiral Raeder, that his case was not connected with this matter. It is only when it is directly connected with the matter that counsel for the individual defendants, are allowed to examine, in addition to the defendants counsel who calls the witness. If there is any suggestion that you wish to make to the counsel who is calling the witness, you can make it to him, but you are not entitled -