Q Was there a proper handing over from Bedenck to you? the very considerable task which this regiment had. Add to that that my superior, General Oberhaueser, was an extraordinarily painstaking superior, and he convinced himself personally of such details, and that from the instructions which I had received, I would be fully in a position to take over the task which the regiment. Is that true, and what would you attribute that to? regiment to prepare all that was necessary in order to defend themselves against assault. Considering the small number of men which I had in my regimental staff, I had to take the necessary steps that would enable me to have replacements in the shortest possible time. These were formed, and then there was a wireless communication with the regimental staff. I ordered that defense maneuvers should be held and defense positions should be prepared around the regimental staff headquarters, and that there should be continuous maneuvers and exorcises in these positions. I partly ran these maneuvers. This was done with the aid of the regimental staff. Of course, shots were fired, particularly since we were preparing ourselves for fighting day and night. traffic moving towards your staff building. Will you please tell us what the significance of this traffic was?
which was increased since, in the spring of 1941 I was having the house rebuilt.
I think that it had been destroyed through air attacks. But of course the maneuvers which were held nearby increased the traffic. The units which were at least 400 kilometers away from the regimental staff headquarters could only, and had to, maintain personal contact with the regiment through the regimental staff. That is the only way they could work with them.
Q. There is supposed to have been considerable truck traffic which has been described as vicious.
A. Apart from size -- it was comparitively small -- these commanders were brought un in trucks; but so was, of course, the entire building material which I required. Apart from that, traffic was not unusually heavy.
Q. Have you gained knowledge of the fact that about 25 kilometers west of Smolensk there were three Russian prisoner of war camps, which had originally been inhabited by Poles and which had been abandoned by the Russians when the German troops approached in July 1941?
A. During that period, I had not yet arrived. But never during my entire time which I served in Russia did I see a single Pole; not did I hear of Poles.
Q. It has been alleged that an order had been issued from Berlin according to which Polish prisoners of war would be shot. Have you had knowledge of such an order?
A. No, no. I have never heard of such an order.
Q. Have you received such an order from any other unit?
A. I have already just told you that I never heard of such an order; in other words, I did not receive it, either.
Q. Were any Poles shot by direct instructions from you?
A. No Poles were shot on instructions of mine; and, in fact, no one at all was shot on orders given by me. I have never given such an order in my life.
Q. Then, you did not arrive until November 1941. Have you heard anything about your predecessor, General Bedenck having given orders for any such measures?
A. I have not heard anything about that. But I, with my regimental staff, with whom I lived together for nine months of such close ties and such close connection -- I knew my people so well, and they knew me so well, too, that I am perfectly convinced that this perpetration, or this deed, was not permitted by my predecessor; nor could it have been permitted by any single member of my regiment. It would have been absolutely that I would have had -
THE PRESIDENT: This is argument, you know, Dr. Stahmer. This is not evidence; it is argument. He is telling you what he thinks might have been the case.
DR. STAHMER: I asked whether he had heard from members of his regiment about the story.
THE PRESIDENT: The answer to that would be "no", I suppose, that he had not heard -- not that he was convinced, that he had not done it.
DR. STAHMER: Very well.
BY DR. STAHMER:
effect that there was a grave hill, a mound in the woods at Katyn? snow, oneof my associates pointed out to me that in a certain spot there was some sort of a mound. It couldn't really be called a "mound." There was supposed to be a birch cross and that birch cross I have seen. During the year of 1942, my associates kept telling me that there in our words shootings were supposed to have taken place but I didn't pay any attention to it first of all, although in the summer of 1942, my attention was drawn to it. I pointed out to the army group commander that there were such conversations and he had told me that he had also heard such rumors.
Q Did these stories prove true later on? ascertained that; in fact, we were concerned with the graves here. During the year 1943 -- I think either January or February -- quite accidentally there was a wolf in this word and first of all I believe we were concerned with the wolf and then we followed the tracks with an expert and we then saw that there were scratchings along that hill with the cross and I had inquiries made as to what this was and somebody told me "human bones" and I informed the officer responsible for war graves in the area of this fact because I believed that perhaps we had a grave of soldiers who had been killed, a number of which such graves were in our immediate vicinity.
Q Then, how did the excavations take place?
A I am not informed about that in detail. Professor Dr. Butz arrived one day through orders from the army group and he informed me that in my little wood, excavations were to be carried out because rumors and that he would now inform me of the fact that these excavations in my wood would take place. excavation work? told me that he had conclusive evidence regarding the date and time of the shootings. Amongst other things, he showed me letters which I cannot now remember very exactly but I do remember some sort of diary which he passed over to me and there were dates followed by certain written remarks which I couldn't read because they were written in Police and in connection with this, he explained to me that these notes had been made by a Polish officer and that he had worked for the past months and that at the end of the diary there was a date, the spring of 1940, and that the lines contained the fear that something horrible was happening to them.
That was only the sense, of course, which I am giving to you now. he was assuming? that the shootings had taken place in the spring of 1940 and that he expressed his convictions repeatedly in my presence; later on, too, when the commission viewed the grave and when I had to place my house at the disposal of these commissioners to accommodate them, I personally did not have any dealings whatever with the excavation work itself or the commission as such. All I had to do was to place the house at their disposal. I was a landlord with the corresponding duty. to Katyn from the outside, who were buried in the little wood. Do you know anything about that?
Q Would you have had to notice it? officers would have reported it to me, because my officers were continuously in regimental fighting posts, whereas I as a regimental commander was of course travelling a great deal. The officer who was there continuously in those days was Lieutenant Hodt, whose address became known to me last night from a letter.
Q Were Russian prisoners of war used for these excavations?
Q Can you tell us the number?
A I cannot give you exact information because I didn't concern myself with this excavation work until later because of die dreadful stench around our house which was revolting to us, but I believe that I can give you an estimate of the figure. Perhaps therewere forty to fifty people.
Q It has been alleged that they were shot afterwards. Do you have any knowledge of that?
A I have no knowledge of that and I haven't heard it at any time.
DR. STAHMER: I have no further questions, Mr. President. BY DR. KRANZBUEHLER (Counsel forDoenitz): any of the inhabitants?
A Yes. At the beginning of 1943, a Russian married couple were working there, who lived eight hundred yards away and they were bee-keepers. I, too, kept bees -- and I came into close contact with this married couple. then the excavation was carried out, approximately in May 1943, I told them that they ought to know, after all, since they wereliving directly next to the graves, when these shootings had taken place; thereupon, these people told me this had happened, in the spring of 1940, and that on the station of Guesdowa there had been railway trucks of fifty tons each in which more than two hundred Poles in uniform had arrived, who were taken to the woods in lorries. They had said that they had heard lots of shots and screams, too.
Q Was the wood closed to the population at the time?
THE PRESIDENT: That is a leading question. I don't think you should ask leading questions. BY DR. KRANZBUEHLER: time? from the local inhabitants, civilians could not enter it during the time the Russians were there. The remains of the fence were still visible when I came. The fence exists in my sketch and it is a black line. as to who the former owners were?
A Yes, I did make inquiries because I was interested. The house was built in a rather peculiar way. It had a cinema plant and it had a rifle range and, ofcourse, that interested me; but I failed to ascertain anything definite during the entire time when I was there. other graves found?
were a number of other small graves which were found in the vicinity of the castle which contained the decayed bodies; that is to say, skeletons which had disintegrated and these were graves containing perhaps six, eight, or a few more skeletons which were both male and female skeletons. This could be recognized very clearly because most of them had rubber shoes which were fully preserved that there were also remains of handbags and pocketbooks.
Q How long had these skeletons been in the grounds?
A That, I cannot tell you. I only know that they were decayed and had disintegrated. The bones were preserved but the skeleton structure was no longer preserved.
DR. KRANZBUEHLER: Thank you very much.
DR. LATERNSER: Dr. Laternser, counsel for the General Staff and the OKW.
THEPRESIDENT: DR. Laternser, you know the Tribunal's ruling.
DR. LATERNSER: Yes, sir.
THE PRESIDENT: Well, you have no right to ask any questions of the witness here.
DR. LATERNSER: Mr. President, particularly in this most unusual case, I was going to ask you to allow me to put questions.
THE PRESIDENT: I said to you that you know the Tribunal's ruling and the Tribunal will not hear you. We have already ruled upon this once or twice in consequence of your objections and the Tribunal will not hear you.
DR. LATERNSER: Mr. President, the case of Katyn isone of the most serious accusations raised against the group.
THEPRESIDENT: The Tribunal is perfectly well aware of the nature of the allegations about Katyn and the Tribunal does not propose to make any exceptional rule in that case and it therefore will not hear you and you will kindly sit down.
DR. LATERNSER: Mr. President, in that case, I wish to be clear that by this means in this case, I feel that my defense is limited unduly.
THE PRESIDENT: As Dr. Laternser knows perfectly well, he is entitled to apply to the Commission to call any witness who is called here if his evidence bears upon the case of the particular organizations for which Dr. Laternser appeared.
I don't want to hear anything further.
DR. LATERNSER: Mr. President, that way which was pointed out to me has no practical significance. I cannot have every witness who appears here called by the commission.
DR. SIEMERS: Dr. Siemers
THE PRESIDENT: Dr. Siemers, you are appearing for the Defendant Doenitz, is it, or Raeder ?
DR. SIEMERS: Defendant Raeder.
THE PRESIDENT: Well, unless the questions you are going to ask particularly refer to the case of the Defendant Raeder, the Tribunal is not prepared to hear any further cross examination. The matter has been generally covered by Dr. Stahmer and also by Dr. Kranzbuehler and, therefore, unless the questions which you want to ask have some particular reference to the case of Raeder, the Tribunal will not hear it.
DR. SIEMERS: Mr. President, I had merely assumed that there were two reasons on the strength of which I could put a few questions : firstly, because the Tribunal themselves have stated that within the framework of the conspiracy all Defendants had been participants; and my second reason was that, according to the description, the statements by the prosecution, Grand Admiral Raeder, too, is considered a member of the supposedly criminal organizations, the General Staff and the OKW. It was for that reason I wanted to ask one or two supplementary questions.
THE PRESIDENT: Dr. Siemers, if there were any allegations that in any way bore on the case against Defendant Raeder, the Tribunal would of course allow you to ask questions; but there is no allegation which in any way connects the Defendant Raeder with the allegations about the Katyn Woods.
DR. SIEMERS: I am grateful to the Tribunal for that statement, Mr. President.
DR. LATERNSER: Mr. President, may I please put a question to you ? May I have the question put to the prosecution, to whose responsibility the case of Katyn is going to be attributed ?
THE PRESIDENT: I don't propose to answer questions of that sort. BY COLONEL SMIRNOV:
Q. Please tell me, Witness, since when, exactly, were you located in the territory of the Smolensk district ?
A. I have already answered that question. Beginning with the second half of November, 1941.
Q. Please answer me, where were you until the second part of November, 1941? Did you have any relationship to Katyn or to Smolensk as a district ? Were you physically there, were you personally there in September and October 1941 ?
A. No, I wasn't there.
Q. That means that neither in September nor in October, 1941, did you know what events occurred there at that time in the Katyn forest ?
A. During that period I was not there, but earlier I have mentioned that -
Q. No, I am only interested in a short question. Were you there personally or not ? Were you in a position to see yourself what was happening there or not ? Please answer that.
THE PRESIDENT: He says he wasn't there.
THE WITNESS: No, I wans't there.
THE PRESIDENT: He said he wasn't there in September or October, 1941.
COLONEL SMIRNOV: Thank you, Mr. President. BY COLONEL SMIRNOV:
Q. Maybe you recall the family names of the Russian women workers who were employed at the little castle in the woods ?
A. These female workers were not working in several different houses. They merely worked as auxiliary kitchen personnel in Dnieper castle. I didn't know their names ever at all.
Q. That means that the Russian women workers were only employed in the villa where the Staff headquarters were located ?
A. I believe that question wasn't translated too well. I didn't understand it.
Q. I asked you whether the Russian women workers were employed exclusively in the villa where the Staff headquarters were located ? Is that right ?
A. The women workers worked for the regimental staff as auxiliary workers in the kitchen, and that means as such auxiliary workers in the kitchen they worked on their property; and by their property I mean this particular house with the adjoining attached houses, the stables, the garage, the cellars, the central heating plants; that is where they worked.
THE PRESIDENT: Wait a minute. The translation was coming through very faintly then. I don't know whether -BY COLONEL SMIRNOV:
Q. I will name a few names of German military employees. Will you please tell me whether they belonged to your unit ?
First Lt. Rex.
A. First Lt. Rex was my regimental adjutant.
Q. Please tell me, before your arrival in Katyn was he employed in that unit ? Was he already assigned to that unit ?
A. Yes, he was there before I came.
Q. He was your adjutant, wasn't he ?
A. Yes, he was my adjutant.
Q. Lt. Hodt ?
A. Lt Hodt is right; but what question are you putting about Lt. Hodt ?
Q. I am only questioning you about whether he was assigned to your unit or not ?
A. Lt Hodt was a member of the regiment. Whether -
Q. Yes, that is what I was asking. He was assigned to the unit which you commanded, wasn't he ?
A. By that I didn't mean to say that he was a member of the regimental staff. He belonged to the regiment. The regiment consisted of three units.
Q. And he lived in the same villa, didn't he ?
A. That I don't know. When I arrived he wasn't living there. He didn't join me -- or rather, I ordered him there not until much later.
Q. I will ennumerate a few other family names. N.C.O. Roser, Sergeant Lummert, Storekeeper Giesecke; these were employed who were located in the villa ?
A. May I ask you to mention the names individually once more and I will give you individual answers.
Q. Sergeant Lummert ?
A. Yes.
Q. N.C.O. Roser ?
A. Yes.
Q. And I believe Storekeeper Giesecke ?
A. That man's name was Giesecken.
Q. Yes, that is right. That means that all these were your people or at least they belonged to your unit, didn't they ?
A. Yes.
Q. But you nevertheless assert that you did not know what these people were doing in September and October, 1941 ?
A. As I wasn't there, I can't tell you for certain.
COLONEL SMIRNOV: Thank you.
THE PRESIDENT: We will adjourn now.
(A recess was taken.)
COLONEL SMIRNOV : Mr. President, since the witness has stated that he cannot give any testimony concerning the period of October-November 1941, I will limit myself to very short questions.
BY COLONEL SMIRNOV : the city with respect to the highway Smolensk-Witebsk. Was the countryside very far from the highway Smolensk-Witebsk ? memory, I would estimate there that the graves would be 200 to 300 meters directly west, on the road to Dnieper Castle, 200 to 300 meters south of the road Smolensk-Witebsk. An additional 600 metals away you would find Dnieper Gastle. west of Smolensk, According to the scale, one to one thousand, as far as I am able to set this down accurately from memory the site of these graves was 200 to 300 meters south, and an additional 600 meters south, directly on the northern bend of the Dnieper, you would find our regimental staff quarters in the Dnieper Castle. Witebsk by about 600 meters.
A No, that is not correct. What I said -
Q Please name a more or less exact figure. What was the distance between the highway and the countryside, please ?
A In my testimony I just mentioned it, 200 to 300 meters. That was the distance to the graves, and it was an additional 600 meters to the castle. Therefore, it was approximately 900 to 1,000 meters. It might have been 800 meters, but that is the approximate distance which is shown in this sketch which I made.
THE PRESIDENT : I am not following this. Your question Colonel Smirnov, was : How far was it from the road to what you called the countryside, didn't you ?
COLONEL SMIRNOV : No, Mr. President, I asked how far was the countryside from the highway Smolensk-Witebsk.
THE PRESIDENT : What do you mean by the "countryside" ?
COLONEL SMIRNOV : The Headquarters of the unit which was located in a villa, and this villa was located not far from the Dnieper, at about 900 meters from the highway. I would like to know how far the staff was located from the highway, and how far from the highway the graves were located.
THE PRESIDENT : What you want to know is : How far was the house in which the headquarters was situated from the highway ? Is that right ?
COLONEL SMIRNOV : Yes, that is exactly what I wanted to know, Mr.President.
THE WITNESS : You put two questions to me : first of all, how far were the graves from the highway; and secondly, how far was the house from the highway; what was the distance. I will repeat my answer once more. BY COLONEL SMIRNOV :
Q One minute please. I asked you formerly only concerning the house, but now I will ask you about the graves. How far were these mass graves from the highway Smolensk-Witebsk ?
A From 200 to 300 meters. It might have been 350 meters. highway connecting two important centers, is that true ?
A Yes, indeed. There was a distance of 200 to 300 meters, and this highway was open to traffic during the entire time that I was there.
Q That was the substance of my question. Now, please tell me : Was the Katyn Wood a forest, or was it, rather, a park ? This little forest of Katyn is fenced in about, and it is a wooded terrain of one square kilometer. This is a forest of mixed growth, older and younger trees. Many birch trees were contained in this little woods. However, there were clearings in this woods, and I assume 30 to 40 per cent was cleared, and you could see stumps which had just been felled.
Under no circumstances could you describe this wood as a park. Fighting had taken place in this woods, for there were trenches, trench holes, which could still be seen. it was a small grove in the immediate vicinity of the highway Smolensk-Witebsk.
Is that so ?
A No, it is not correct to say that. Itwas a forest. The entire Katyn forest was a forest which started with our groves and extended beyond that. This entire Katyn forest was a mixed forest. Part of it had been fenced in, and this part, extending over one square kilometer, was what was called the little Katyn forest by us, but it did belong to this entire wooded region south of the highway. The forest began with our little forest and continued to the west.
Q I am not interested in the general characteristics of the woods. I would like you to answer the following question : Were the mass graves in this grove or not ? our region, and it was a clearing in the woods. Young trees were found there. highway Smolensk-Witebsk, is that correct ? directly west of the incoming road leading to the Dnieper Castle. I characterized this spot through a rather fat white dot.
Q One more question. Do you know whether the highway Smolensk-Witebsk existed before the German occupation of Smolensk, or was it constructed after the beginning of the occupation ? covered with snow, the entire countryside. I gained the impression that this was an old road, whereas the narrow-gage railroad Minsk-Moscow was a newer highway. That was the impression I gained. the grove.
A I cannot give the exact day and fix it exactly. My soldiers told me about this, and on one occasion when I was riding past there, perhaps at the beginning of January 1942 or the end of December 1941, I saw this cross rising above the snow. I saw this cross at that time.
Q You saw it already in 1941 or at the beginning of 1942, is that correct?
1 July M LJG 8-1 when a wolf brought you to this cross. Was it in the winter or summer and what was the precise date?
Q In 1943? And around the cross you saw bones, hadn't
A No, I did not see bones first of oil. In order to find out whether I had not been mistaken about seeing awolf, for it seemed quite impossible so near to Smolensk there whould be a wolf, together with a hunter I examined the tracks and I found a place where a wolf had pawed. However, the ground was frozen hard. Snow was on the ground and I did not see anything further. Only later, after there had been a thaw, did my men find some bones. However, this was months later and then I showed these bones to a physician and he said that those were human bones. Then I said, that most likely we are concerned with a grave which is left over from the fighting and I told him that the war registration officer would have to take care of the graves just as we were taking care of other graves. That was the reason why I talked with this gentleman. But only when the snow t hawed and melted did that time come about -
Q By the way, did you personally see the Katyn graves?
A Open or before they were opened?
Q Open? constantly for, after all, they were duly west of the incoming read, perhaps thirty meters west. Therefore, I could not go along this road without seeing these graves.
Q I am interested in the following question. Do you remember what was the depth of the layer of dirt which covered the human bodies in these graves?
A That I do not know. I have already said that through the stench which we had to suffer which lasted for several weeks, I was revolted to such an extent that when I rode past I closed the windows of my car and rushed through as fast as I could.
1 July M LJG 8-2 whether the layer of dirt which separated the corpses was thick or thin, was several centimeters or will you estimate it was several motors thick? What do you think about it? Maybe Professor Butz told you in this connection about the layer of dirt covering the corpses. region which was almost half as large as Greater Germany. I was on the road a great deal and my work was not chiefly at the position of the regiment where we were stationed. Therefore, in general, from Monday or Tuesday until Saturday I was with my unit and for that reason, when I traveled through I did cast a glance into these graves but I was not especially interested in the details and I did not talk with Professor Butz about such details. In any case, I do not remember this particularly. it is clear that the bodies lay at a depth of one and a half to two meters and I wonder where you found such a wolf who could dig up such a deep ditch.
A I did not find this wolf. I saw this wolf. about the graves in 1941, you started the exhumation only in March 1943 ?
A That was not a matter of my concern. That was a matter with which the army group had to concern itself. I have already told you that in the course of the year 1942 the stories became increasingly frequent. I heard about these matters frequently and I spoke to Colonel von Gersthoff in this matter and he suggested or he hinted at the fact that he knew about this matter and thereupon my obligation ended for I had reported what I had seen and heard and apart from that, this entire matter did not concern me and I did not concern myself with it. It was not my business. I had enough other worries.
Q And now the last question. Please tell me with what 1 July M LJG 8-3 couple you had this conversation and where this couple was located and what was the name of the couple who told you about the shootings in the Katyn woods?
north from the end of the incoming road to the Vitebsk road. They lived in a rather small house. Their names I do not recall.
Q. So you do not remember the name of this couple?
A. No, I do not recall the name.
Q. So you heard, about the Katyn events from a couple whose name you do not know, and you did not hear about it from any other of the local inhabitants?
A. Please repeat the question for me.
Q. Consequently, you heard about this event of Katyn only from this couple, whose name you do not remember and you did not hear anything about it from other local inhabitants, is that right ?
A. I personally heard this story only from this couple. My soldiers, on the other hand, told me the stories which were current amongst the other inhabitants.
Q. Do you know that during the investigation of the Katyn affair, or of the Katyn provocation by the German police, there were posters on the streets of Smolensk promising an award to the man who could give any testimony concerning the event? It was signed by Lieutenant Foss.
A. I did not see that announcement myself. Lieutenant Foss is know to me by name only.
Q. And the very last question. Do you know the report of the Extraordinary State Commission concerning Katyn?
A. Do you mean the Russian White Paper when you mention this report? Is that the same thing?
Q. No, I am thinking of the Soviet Extraordinary Commission report, concerning Katyn, the Soviet report.
A. Yes, I read that report.
Q. Therefore, you know also that the Extraordinary State Commission named you amongst the persons who are reponsible for the crimes in Katyn, You know about that?
A. It states that there is a Lt. Colonel Arnes. COLONEL SMIRNOV: I have no further questions. THE PRESIDENT: Dr. Stahmer, do you wish to re-examine?
BY DR. STAHMER:
Q. Witness, just a little while ago you said that you did not know when Lieutenant Hodt joined your staff. Do you know when he joined the regiment?
A. I know that during the Russian campaign in Russia, and that is from the beginning of the campaign, he belonged to the regiment.
Q. That is, from the beginning he belonged to the regiment?
A. Yes. With the beginning of the Russian campaign, he was a member of this regiment.
Q. Just one more question dealing with your discussion with Professor Butz. Did Professor Butz tell you anything about the date on which these things ended?
A. He told me about the spring of 1940 and he showed me this diary. I looked at the diary and I saw the dates, but I do not recall at this point, in detail, just which dates were contained therein. But these dates ended with the spring of 1940.
Q. There are no entries at other times?
A. Professor Butz told me that documents which night make one conclude as to a later date had not been found, and according to his conviction, he said that these events must have taken place in the spring of 1940.
DR. STAHMER: Mr. President, I have no further questions to put to the witness.