THE PRESIDENT: The Tribunal has an announcement upon the 25 June M LJG 1-2 subject, which I am about to read.
The announcement is this: June, 1946, on the question of time to be token by defense counsel, the Tribunal has given the matter further consideration. the Tribunal observed that some of the defendants required more time than others, and to this extent they did make an apportionment among themselves. The Tribunal feels that the suggested times are much too long and some voluntary restriction should be made. very wide scope, the Tribunal is of the opinion that one-half a day to each defendant is ample time for the presentation of his defense, and the Tribunal hopes that counsel will condense their arguments and limit themselves voluntarily to this time. The Tribunal, however, will not permit counsel for any defendant to deal with irrelevant matters or to speak for more than one day in any case. Four hours will be allowed at the beginning for argument on the general questions of law and fact, and counsel should cooperate in their arguments in such a way as to avoid needless repetition.
I am told that one part of the announcement that I was making came through in an incorrect shape on some of the translations; so I will read it again.
"Except as to a few of the defendants whose cases are of very wide scope, the Tribunal is of the opinion that one-half a day to each defendant is ample time for the presentation of his defense; and the Tribunal hopes that counsel will condense their arguments and limit themselves voluntarily to this time. The Tribunal, however, will not permit counsel for any defendant to deal with irrelevant matters or to speak more than one day in any case. Four hours will be allowed at the beingning for argument on the general questions of law and fact, and counsel should cooperate in their arguments in such a way as to avoid needless repetition." translation of each argument in French, Russian and English submitted at the beginning of the argument. Counsel may arrange for the translation themselves if they so desire, but if they will submit copies of their arguments to the Translating Department, as soon as possible, and not less than three days in advance of delivery, the translation will be made for them, and the contents of the copies will not be disclosed.
Yes, Dr. Luedinghausen. BY DR. VON LEUDINGHAUSEN:
Q. Last night we had stopped in our treatment concerning ourselves with the various points raised by the prosecution. I should like to continue now and to put the various questions to you, Mr. von Neurath. you of the fact, that the Germans in the protectorate had a preferential position as compared with the Czechs in the protectorate, and that you were responsible for according them such preferential treatment.
Will you please comment on this?
A. The position of Germans in the protectorate was not a position of preference connected in any way with any real advantages as compared with the Czechs, but rather it was an entirely different position. The Germans were citizens of the Reich, and therefore, had the rights of the Reich citizens, such as the right to vote in Reichstag elections. thing which is quite understandable in view of the existing difference between the German people and the Czech people. Efforts to receive preferential treatment, of course, did take place in chauvenistic and nationalist circles. and intensely, and I prevented any practical realization of such efforts. In this connection, however, I should like to repeat once more that I did not consider the Czech people inferior to the German people in any manner or in any way at all. We were concerned with a different kind of people which politically and culturally had to be treated according to its own characteristics. nomy, which meant nothing more than the separation of the two nationalities with a view toward their own life, or a separate life, for the Czechs, and the fact that this autonomy had to be kept within certain limits, and especially in time of war. That is something which is quite true.
Q. Not, I should like to deal with the various points as raised by the Czech indictment, or rather the points found in the Czech report, which is the basis for this prosecution and indictment. In this report it is asserted that the freedom of the press was suppressed by your authority. Is that correct? And if this case does apply, what role did Mr. von Gregory play in the treatment of the press?
A. Mr. von G regory was the press attache at the German Embassy in Prague. He was subordinate to the Propaganda Ministry. Then he became chief of my press department, and was under my authority.
He limited the Czech press according to the direc-
tives given out by the Propaganda Ministry in Berlin. The Czech press, of course, was not free. It was not free any more than the German press was free. Circulation, methods of control, and other measures, especially measures applying to censorship, were the same for the German and the Czech press.
Q. The Czech indictment report further accuses you with the fact that the local Czech administrative authorities were in many cases dissolved, and then in part these offices were replaced by Germans or Czech collaborators. Is that correct?
A. The fact that in the localitieis such as Moravia there was a German minority and that they were represented on the county basis to me seems to be a matter of course. Prague, for instance, had a Czech mayor and a German assistant mayor, and that does not seem to be to be objectionable in any way. As far as activity of some of the Germans in the various localities is concerned, and being active in the local administration to the point whore the participation assumed such proportions as did not seem justified, by the number of Germans living there, I tried to use my influence, and fught this problem. Bohemia, in general there were no German representatives active at all. But on the other hand, there were large areas such as the region of Iglau where the Germans, because of their number, and therefore of course, influence as well, were dominant.
Q. The Czech Prosecution report accuses you with the fact that in this way and through the appointing of the Oberlandraete you had germanized the Czech population, and this report bases its accusations on an alleged statement which you supposedly made to the former Czech President, Mr. Bienert, in which you said that has to be digested over a period of two years.
A. I do not recall ever having made a statement like that, and I cannot quite see that I would have made any statement like that. In this point we are concerned with the coordination of the Czechs with the German administration. The Oberlandraete were not appointed by me, but they were used as a controlling level set up by the Reich Government, and they were instituted by virtue of the decree of the 1st of September 1939, in line with the s etting up of German administration and the security police.
appeared before me to give their reports, I told them again and agin, and tried to inculcate them with the idea, that they were not to administer personally, but they were there for controlling purposes and supervisory purposes. to the German method, I told them.
DR. VON LUEDINGHAUSEN: In this case I should like to refer to a document, No. 149 of my document book, a regulation which concerns itself with the building up of German administration and the Security Police under the date of the 1st of September 1939. I should like to point out especially Paragraphs 5 and 6, which deal with the appointment and the duties of the Oberlandraete. I do not believe that I need to quote from this document.
By Dr.von Luedinghausen:
Q. The Czech prosecution report further contains a statement deposed by Mr. A. It is quite possible that I told Bienert something to this effect; However, today I can't remember it but it can be taken for granted that in the sphere be made.
There had to be restriction of autonomy in local administration and they have to be considered along this line and in this light.
I always tried interests of the country if self.
That is something which you cannot throw up to Q: In this connection, I should like to refer to the matters contained in my document book under No.144, document No.5. The decree issued by the Fuehrer and Protectorate of Bohemia and Moravia, dated the 16 th of March 1939.
In this do own.
The Czech prosecution further refers to a statement made by the former
A. The Czech Legion during the time of the first World War had been founded in Russia. It was composed partially of volunteers and partially from the balance of the Czech regiments which had belonged to the old AustrioHungarian Army and which had been made prisoners of war in Russia. These Czech Legionnaires enjoyed, after the founding of the Czech Republic, a certain special and favored position. In part, they were imbued with chauvinistic resentment toward the Reich which dated back to the time of the national fighting era and in this way, the so-called Legionnaire mentality in Bohemia was a slogan and in times of political unrest could work itself out to be a danger to policy. This favored position which the Legionnaires enjoyed were fought against extensively in the Protectorate and by that, I mean this favorite position was fought against by the Czechs themselves; therefore, particularly, Frank tried to remove the Legionnaires from public office -- only in the most glaring cases, however, did this take place and it took place only in so far as these Legionnaires had become volunteer members of the Czech Legion; that is it did not apply to those of the former Austrio-Hungarian Army. From the beginning, I tried to keep this difference and it still applies, and the distinction which was made in Germany between the voluntary SS and the Waffen SS today.
Q. The Czech prosecution is further accusing you of the fact of the support of theCzech Fascist organization Vlayka. The Czech prosecution in this case is referring to a memorandum and is basing the accusation on a memorandum which you yourself made, dealing with a discussion which you had with President Hacha of Czechoslovakia on the 26th of March 1940. According to this memorand you told Hacha that the personal and moral qualities of the Vlayka leaders were well known to you but in any event, you had found and would have to say that this movement and this organization was the only one which had taken a positiv stand toward the Reich and for collaboration with the Reich. Will you comment on this?
A. The Vlayka movement was the same up the collaborationists in France. This movement worked to bring about a German-Czech collaboration, and working together, and they made their efforts and tried to bring this about long befor the Protectorate was actually established.
The leaders of this movement, in my opinion, were rather dubious characters and personages, something which I showed in the words I used to Hacha. These leaders threatened and reproache President Hacha and members of the Czech Government as well. State Secretary Frank had known these men from previous days and wanted to support these people in consideration of cooperation with him; however, I fought and rejected this as well as I declined and refused to receive those people when the applied to be received by me. On the other hand, it is possible that Frank supported them from a special fund which Hitler placed at his disposal quite without my knowledge and obligated I rank not to tell me anything about it.
Q. What attitude did you take to the dissolution of the parties, political parties and of the trade unions?
A. As well as the controls exercised over the press, those were matters of necessity which resulted from the system, resulted from the political system of the Reich. In any event, through this step taken by President Hacha and dispite the measures taken by Germany, no country suffered so much from the sufferings and misery of war as the Protectorate. The Czech people were the only ones in the Middle and East Europe which could retain its national and cultural unity almost in toto.
alleges so-called cultural suppression. What can you tell us about the handling of Czech education? I have already mentioned, were closed at Hitler's direct order in November, 1939 Again and again, at the request of President Hacha and of the Czech government, I tried to intervene with Hitler direct to have these schools reopened. However, because of the dominating position occupied by Mr. Himmler, I was unsuccessful. The consequence of the closing of the universities, of course, was that a large number of young people who would otherwise have engaged in studies new had to look for employment. The closing of the universities and institutions of higher learning also brought about repercussions on intermediate schooling. After the separation of the Sudetenland in the autumn of 1938, there had been special problems for the entire Czech intelligentsia from this region who had returned to the Protectorate, or what was later to become the Protectorate. For the young people from the intermediate schools there was hardly any work or anything to occupy their time. It was about the same situation which is now appearing in Germany. Concerning the closing of German public schools and other planned efforts by the Czech youth to have their education restricted and limited, I know nothing of anything like that. institutions of higher learning as ordered by Hitler?
THE PRESIDENT: Dr. von Luedinghausen, he said that he tried to intervene and get rid of Hitler's order.
DR. VON LUEDINGHAUSEN: If that is sufficient to the High Tribunal, then perhaps the Defendant need not answer my question.
THE PRESIDENT: Don't you think that is sufficient?
DR. VON LUEDINGHAUSEN: Yes, Mr. President, I just wanted to intensify the problem a little bit more. However, if the High Tribunal is sufficiently satisfied with that, in order to delineate his -
THE PRESIDENT: Do you think it would be any better if it was said twice?
DR. VON LUEDINGHAUSEN: I just meant it as a supplement, Mr. President but I am quite satisfied.
BY DR. VON LUEDINGHAUSEN: Czech report, to turn the people into a mass of workers and to rob them of their spiritual elite?
A No. Only a crazy person could have made a statement like that.
Q The Czech's indicating report asserts that through your agencies, that is under your approval and endorsement, there was plundering of Czech scientific institutions. On Page 58 of the German text, Page 55 of the English text of this report, USSR 60, he says: "The Germans occupied all universities and scientific institutions. They immediately acquired all valuable apparatus and scientific installations in the institutions which were occupied. Scientific libraries were plundered systematically and methodically; scientific books and films, were torn up or transported off; the archives of the academic Senate of the highest university authorities were tern up or burned; the card files were destroyed, and scattered to the four winds." What can you tell us in this connection? and destruction. I never heard of any plundering like that either in Prague or anywhere else. The Czech's universities and institutions of higher learning were closed in the year 1939 on an order from Hitler. The buildings and installations of the crave Czech University, as far as I know, were in part put at the disposal of German universities which were closed by the Czechs, since after the Czech universities were closed they could not be used any longer for Czech scientific purpose.
THE PRESIDENT: I didn't understand that answer. As I pot it, "The buildings, in part, were put at the disposal of German universities which had been closed by the Czechs."
THE WITNESS : In Prague there was the oldest German university. It had been closed by the Czechs after the First World War, and after the establishing of the Protectorate it had been reopened and, so far as I know, see of the equipment and buildings were used by this German university.
THE PRESIDENT: Go on. BY DR. VON LUEDINGHAUSEN: collections, and so forth? of Historically valuable Goublin of the Maltese Palais in Prague. These valuable objects were removed by a member of the Foreign Office in Berlin, the chief secretary, and were transporter off. This was done during the night, secretly, and without my knowledge of the knowledge of my office. As soon as I learned of this I tried, with the Foreign Office, to have this material restored immediately. Whether this material was actually restored I do not know. That was in the year '41, and in the meantime I had left Prague. I know nothing about other incidents of this kind. Apart from that, there was a special prohibitiondealing with the transporting of art objects to the Reich, and in this prohibition I dealt with art objects.
DR. VON LUEDINGHAUSEN: In this connection, I should like to submit an extract from the interrogation of the former Under Secretary of State, Frank, dated the 10th of June, 1945. This is No. 154 of my Document Book No. 5, and I should like to ask the High Tribunal to take judicial notice of this document and of this interrogation. BY DR. VON LUEDINGHAUSEN: property, in the Czernin Palais in Prague which you used as your official residence? Minister, and the valuable objects of art and pieces of furniture belonged to the Czech state. Since there was no inventory of any sort of these valuables, before moving in, in the fall of 1938, and calling in the Czech supervisor and Czech art historian, Professor Strecki, I had a very exact inventory taken. One copy of this inventory was left in my office and another one was ******bed with the administration. After I left Prague, in the autumn of '41, through my former caretaker and again in the presence of a representative of the Czechs, I had a record made that the articles which were mentioned in the inventory were actually there.
THE PRESIDENT: I don't think we need details of the inventory, but there is one thing I should like to ask. The translation came through to me that the inventory was made in the fall of 1938. Was that right?
THE WITNESS: 1939. I wanted to mention only that naturally I did not take any of these articles. BY DR. VON LUEDINGHAUSEN: confiscation of the so-called Masaryk houses in various cities and with the destruction of Masaryk monuments and monuments erected to ether personalities famous in Czech history. What do you know about that? were closed by the police because they were centers of agitation against Germany. The obstruction or the removal of Masaryk or other national monuments, that as one thing which I had specifically prohibited. Aside from that, the putting down of wreaths at the grave of Masaryk at Lanyi, a step which Frank had prohibited, that was something which I expressly permitted and something which actually did take place. Many wreaths were laid down there.
Q It is further asserted by the Prosecution that Czech literature was suppressed and muzzled in an extensive way.
was something which, of course, was prohibited. Something else which was prohibited was the dissemination of English and French works. What was something which wasprohibited in the entire Reich during the war. Propaganda Ministry. All steps were taken under their direction. However, during my period, of activity, there were many Czech book stores and book publishing concerns who, before and after, published books and disseminated them, works of Czech authors. The selection of Czech books of every type in book stores was essentially larger than the selection of German books to be had. things as theaters, movies and so forth that are mentioned by the Prosecution has there any talk of that? Czechs, aside from the university question there was no question or is at all. In practice, there were a large number of Czech plays in Prague, playing all the time, especially the pure Czech opera, and many legitimate theaters were operating constantly. However, there was only one permanent German theater which was active. There was constant production of many Czech plays and opera, and the same thing applies to music. The well known Czech Philharmonic Orchestra at Prague played Czech music.
THE PRESIDENT: We don't need details. The defendant says that theaters and cinema theaters were allowed and there was only one German theater. We don't want any further details about it.
DR. VON LUEDINGHAUSEN: Very well, Mr. President. I only asked about these matters because they are rather extensively dealt with in the indictment. BY DR. VON LUEDINGHAUSEN:
Q And how about the film industry, Mr. von Neurath?
A The same thing applied to the movie industry. It was quite active Q Now, I should like to turn to the so-called suppression of religious freedom, a step of which you are accused by the Czech Prosecution.
The Czech Prosecution report mentions a wave of persecution which innundated the churches, which started immediately when the German troops marched into occupy the country.
Will you please comment on that? something which is quite out of the question. The population was quite free in carrying through their religion, and I certainly would not have tolerated any restrictions along that line. point here already. In some specific cases, certain religious processions were prohibited by the police, and that may be true even though I personally do not remember anything like that. But that only took place because certain pilgrimages, consisting of many thousands of members, were exploited as political demonstrations and used for that purpose, and on those occasions anti-German speeches were made. As I learned, several instances of that kind did actually take place. at the beginning of the war which we have already mentioned here. These arrests did not take place because there were clerics involved, but because they were active political opponents or people who were politically suspected. In cases of this nature, I was especially interested in having these people released. amicable. The Archbishop, Archbishop von Olmitz, specifically thanked me for my intervention on behalf of the Church, and this is a point that I distinctly remember. practicing their religion. Up until the time I left in the autumn of 1941, every synagogue was open. question about the position of Jews in the Protectorate. What can you tell us about the position of Jews there?
A The legal position of the ews had to be coordinated with the position of the Jews in the Reich, on instructions from Berlin.
The directions along thisline had been sent to me already in April of 1939. Through all sorts of inquiries addressed to Berlin, I tried and succeeded in not having the laws go into effect until June of 1939, and I did that so that in that way I could give the Jews the opportunity of preparing themselves for the imminent introduction and establishment of these laws. In this way, the Jews were removed from public life and kept from holding leading positions in the economic life. However, arrests on a large did not take place. There were no excesses, except in very few single instances. The camp at Theresienstadt was not erected until long after my time of office, and the erection of concentration camps in the Protectorate was something that I prevented. opposed to the Jews. They are accusing you personally with the fact that first of all, you charged the autonomous Czech Government with the carrying through of the anti-Jewish laws, and that when Minister President Elias refused to do that, you personally took steps. Jews came about at Hitler's direct order, and through the competent authorities in Berlin.
THE PRESIDENT: Dr. von Luedinghausen, why do you want to go over all this again? The defendant has given the evidence that he succeeded in putting off the laws until June 1939, and that then the Nurnberg laws were introduced. He has given us the various qualifications which hr says he made, and then you read him the Czech report and try to get him to go over it all again, it seems to me. It is now 11:45.
DR. VON LUEDINGHAUSEN: All right, then, I shall desist from asking any further questions and consider the first answer sufficient, and we shall not deal with the matter of confiscation either. BY DR. VON LUEDINGHAUSEN: of the organizations of the YMCA and YWCA, and the confiscation of the property in favor of German organizations.
A I must admit that I do not recall those confiscations at all.
If this confiscationand dissolution took place before I left, it must have been a police measure that was involved. economic life, and the systematic plundering of Czech raw material supplies, and accuses you in that regard. Will you please deal with that matter. almost automatically was incorporated into the total German economy. Export, for which Czech industries had worked to a considerable degree, was done away with because of the war, and that meant that export transformed itself into export to the Reich. Bruenner munitions industry, were taken ad direct war industries through the Plenipotentiary of the Four Year plan, and they were incorporated into German armament. the Protectorate, which would have been hard on the population. An effective means for thatwas the maintaining of the tariff boundaries and customs boundaries which existed between Czechoslovakia and Germany. After heated conflicts with the Berlin Economy Department, I succeeded in having the customs and tariff barrier, which was rescinded on the 16th of March, 1939, maintained up until October, 1940, for another year and a half. the transporting off of raw materials and matters of that kind, and in that connection I should like to say that the office of the Plenipotentiary of the Four Year Plan wasthe only decisive office.
DR. VON LUEDINGHAUSEN: In this connection, I should like to refer to the decree which has already been submitted, the decree dated the 16th of March, 1939, No. 144 of my Document Book No. 5. In this decree, I should like to call special attention to Article 9. BY DR. VON LUEDINGHAUSEN: kronen to marks wasten to one, for in this way the Czechoslovakian state could have been brought up. Are you responsible for the establishing of this ratio?
A No. In this decree of th 16th of March, 1939, which dealt with the general set up in theProtectora --a decree in whose drafting or setting up I was in no way active--it is shut down that the currency rates would be determined by the Reich Government.
As far as I know, the same ratio and rate applied before the incorporation of the Sudetenland into the Reich as well as afterwards. This rate was the customary one at the stock exchange, no an Official rate had to be determined, of course. This decree which I have mentioned established that rate, and it was done by the authorities in Berlin.
was just mentioned, dated 16 March, 1939, which is found under figure 144 of my document book number 5. I should like to call your attention especially to Article 10 which sets forth the ratio as applying to currency in Czechoslovakia and German currency. That is a matter which, it states, will be determined by the Reich Government. ties were taken to the German Reich after the gages had been set right. Do you know anything about this matter? a mistake. I know only that in the year 1940, between the German Reich Bank and the Czech railroads there were negotiations about the exchange for purposes of borrowing and on remuneration, that there were negotiations to have rolling stock exchanged but the stipulation and the condition in this case would be that this would be rolling stock which could be dispensed with in the protector things that were not needed in the protectorate. but these orders were subordinate to the Traffic and Communication Ministry in Berlin. mentioned, a decree which is found under 144 of my document book 5. It is further asserted that the Reich Commissar at the Prague National Bank got payment abroad and confiscated foreign currency and gold.
Did you have anything to do with this rather?
A I had nothing at all to do with these matters. The Reich had a considerable interest in getting a firm foothold in the economic life of the protectorate. However, this was something which applied long before the establishment of the protectorate. Therefore, it was not strange that the large German banks used the opportunity to acquire Czech stocks and securities and in this way the controlling interest in two Czech banks together with their industrial holdings were transferred to German hands in a manner which was quite correct economically.
taken over by the Deutche Bank and I know in this case quite coincidentally that the initiative did not originate with the Deutche Bank, the German Bank, but rather from the Union Bank, the Czech Bank. apart from that, these enterprises had mostly Czech directors and in very few cases were, there German officials incorporated and the largest part of most businesses before and after remained Czech. Can you tell us about this? Tell us about your attitude, about the measures you took. the purpose of Germanizing -- something which we have already mentioned. The instrument of this German settlement policy was to be centered in the Czech Soil Office (Bodenamt), which was a Czech office and which dated back to the time of the Czech agrarian reform period. The Soil Office (Bodenamt) first of all was assigned SS Fuehrer by Himmler.
THE PRESIDENT: The Tribunal does not want to know all the details about this. The Czech report apparently alleges coercion in agriculture. The defendant says it was due, if any, to the party and the SS and he had nothing to do with it. of agriculture in Czechoslovakia? You must realize the Tribunal -
DR. VON LUEDINGHAUSEN: Mr. President, I just wanted to deal with the Bodenamt which became, after many fights, active in a National Socialist way and many new officials were put in. It was my purpost to stress that point.
Mr. President, I should like to remark on one thing. I mentioned yesterday that my examination in chief would perhaps last another hour but yesterday, when I left the session, I found another document book to the Indictment which forced me to deal with same additional questions and for this reason, a reason which I could not predict, I will have to take additional time.
THE PRESIDENT: The Tribunal hasnot taken up the question of time at the moment.
moment "amt" -- agriculture? He said he had nothing to do with it.
DR. VON LUEDINGHAUSEN: Yes, in a way he was connected with it, Mr. President, in this way, insofar as the agricultural interests -
THE PRESIDENT: If he was connected with it let him explain it. I thought he said the party and the SS had done it.
DR. VON LUEDINGHAUSEN: Through and via the Soil Office (Bodenamt) and he tried to prevent this. BY DR. VONLUEDINGHAUSEN:
Q Perhaps you can tell us briefly about this Mr. von Neurath. superfluous to make any further statement. I had no connection with the Bodenamt. I only prevailed and made my influence felt so that a rather unpleasant man who belonged to the SS was removed. compulsory transportation of labor to the Reich?
Compulsory labor did not exist while I was in the protectorate. There was an emergency service order which was given out by the protectorate government. This applied to younger men, men who had to work in the protectorate to do the necessary labor. But the enforced and compulsory sending off of workers into the Reich, that was something which did not take place during my 25 June M LJG 6-1a time.