Commitment was responsible for working conditions. That was also shown by the decree which Goering signed. Of course, in order to make working conditions perfect for workers, there were other authorities; that is clear. practical aid. That was impossible because transportation and telephone connections were generally cut, but that was settled on a local basis.
Q In other words, Sauckel could not do anything? this work.
Q He had to turn to you for any material. Everything was confiscated for armament. me, and he then received large amounts of building materials. I don't mean Sauckel received them, but as far as I recall, it was the German Labor Front in general, which actually took care of the camps.
Q What were the agencies which exercised this care? Were you not the agency that cared for the concerns?
A Not in the sense in which you mean. You want me to say that I was in charge of working conditions.
THE PRESIDENT: The Tribunal thinks that we have been all over this already with the witness, Dr. Servatius.
DR. SERVATIUS: Mr. President, I believe this question was not discussed Yesterday the self administration was discussed. There is the question of the agencies caring for the armament industry, and there is a possibility of the defendant Speer's contacting the concerns through the Labor Commitment Engineers. I wanted to ask one question about that.
THE WITNESS: I will be glad to explain it. BY DR. SERVATIUS: satzingeneure, havethe possibility of improving conditions in the concerns, and did you have supervision of conditions?
A I have to describe the work of these offices. They had an engineering task. That is shown from their title.
Q It was limited to this engineering task?
DR. SERVATIUS: Then I have no more questions.
DR. FLAECHSNER: Mr. President, I have two questions in reference to the cross examination. BY DR. FLAECHSNER:
Q Mr. Speer, I refer to the answer which you gave to Justice Jackson at the end of the cross examination. To clear up the matter, I should like to ask: Assuming total responsibility, did you want to recognize the guilt or responsibility, or did you want to assume historical responsibility for your own people and for history? Court will decide. I only meant to say that even in a totalitarian system there must be total responsibility, and that it is impossible, after the catastrophe, to evade this total responsibility. If the war had been won, the leaders would also have assumed total responsibility. But to the extent that that is punishable or moral I cannot decide and do not want to decide. events which for the most part, I believe, concerned the Krupp firm exclusively.
Did you say that you yourself had no knowledge of these events? Did I understand you correctly? to judge these documents.
DR. FLAECHSNER: I have no more questions, Mr. President. I must reserve the right, in connection with these affidavits introduced against my client -- it was not quite clear to me -- to cross examine the persons who issued these affidavits. I may have to do that. They are events of which I had no knowledge previously.
Then, Mr. President, in five minutes I will be finished with my case.
THE PRESIDENT: Dr. Flaechsner, with reference to those affidavits, if you want to cross-examine any witness you must apply in writing to do so, and you must do so promptly. I think I am correct in saying that there are only two other of the defendants to be examined, and unless the application comes in soon, it will not be possible to find the witnesses or to bring then here in time.
Now, you say you will finish in five minutes?
DR. FLAECHSNER: Yes.
THE PRESIDENT: I think you may as well finish now, then, However, Dr. Flaechsner, the Tribunal has one or two questions to put to the defendant. BY THE TRIBUNAL (Judge Biddle) : in war industry and in the making of munitions, do you remember?
Q Were there regulations to that effect?
Q There were regulations to that effect?
A I said that from my memory, which is not precise. I only recall talks with Keitel about the employment in individual cases, and in these individual cases Keitel refused it. Otherwise I had no knowledge. tion, did you? they were used in war industries, I suppose, were they not? I think those were your words, were they not, "a bad reputation"? Is that right?
Q What did you mean by that phrase "bad reputation"?
What sort of reputation, for what?
A That is hard to define. It was known in Germany that a stay in a concentration camp was unpleasant. I also know this, but I did not know any details.
Q Well, even if you didn't know any details, isn't "unpleasant" putting it a little mildly? Was n't the reputation that violence and physical punishment were used in the camps? Wasn't that the reputation that you meant? Isn't it fair to say that, really? we know. I assumed that mistreatment occurred in individual" cases, out I did not assume that that was the rule. I did now knew that.
Q Didn't you know that violence or physical force was used to enforce the regulations if the internees did not obey them?
A No, I did not know that in this form. I must say that at the time when I was a minister, as odd as it sounds, I was less idsturbed about the inmates of concentration camps than before because while I was a minister I heard from official sources, only good things about the concentration camps. It was said that the food was being improved, and so forth and so on.
Q Only one other question. I was interested in what you said at the and about all of the leaders being responsible for certain general principles, contain great things. Can you state any one of those things? What did you mean by What Principles? Did you mean going on with the war, for instance? or the end of the war, for example. of the war, basic principles for which the leaders were responsible?
JUDGE BIDDLE: Thank you.
21 J une A -LJG- 23-3 Daniels
THE PRESIDENT: The defendant can return to the dock.
THE PRESIDENT: You may as well finish, Dr. Flaechsner.
DR. FLAECHSNER: Yes, gladly. 28th of J anuary, 1944, which was mentioned yesterday. I wish to give it E xhibit Number 31. 11th of March, 1944, to which I give Exhibit Number 32. defendant mentioned yesterday, at page 81 of the English document book, which I submit as Exhibit 33. of Hitler to Speer dated 21 April 1944.
THE PRESIDENT: W ill you give us the date of Exhibit 33? You said page 81. Did you mean page 31 of the original, which is 85 in the English?
DR. FLAECHSNER: No, in the English text, Mr. P resident.
THE PRESIDENT: That is the date of the document?
DR. FLAECHSNER: That was an execution decree for a Fuehrer decree of the 19th of March, 1945.
THE PRESIDENT: That doesn't seen to be right, because page 81 of our cop y is the end-
JUDGE BIDDLE: It is on page 80.
THE PRESIDENT: I s it a decree of March 22, 1945? Is that the thing you mean?
DR. FLAECHSNER: Yes.
THE PRESIDENT: Then it is on page 80.
DR. FLAECHSNER: It is the execution decree of the Fuehrer decree.
THE PRESIDENT: Very well.
DR. FLAECHSNER: The next document, Mr. P resident, is on page 55, and page 52 of the original, the same as the French text. It is a letter of Hitler to Speer regarding entrusting Ministerial Direktur Dorsch with the construction of fighter planes.
I will have to hand in No. 35 later.
As Exhibit No. 36 I submit the interrogatory of Kehrl. It is signed by the witness, Hans Kehrl, and the signature is certified by an officer, and signed by a representative of the Prosecution and by me.
THE PRESIDENT: What page is that--36?
DR. FLAECHSNER: Exhibit 37 is the-
THE PRESIDENT: No, 36. We want the page of it.
DR. FLAECHSNER: Yes, 36 is on page 105 in the original.
On Page 113, Mr. President, of the document book you will find excerpts from the questioning of the witness Schieber, which I submit as exhibit 37. It is handed in, in German and English. The minutes are certified by a member of the Prosecution and by me. the witness Schmelter, which I submit as Exhibit 38. This is certified in the same way. Hupfauer. That will be Exhibit No. 39. of the witness Sauer. I submit this as Exhibit 40. It is in English and German. The English is Certified by the signature of a member of the Prosecution and by tory of Frank, or the record of the examination of Frank, carried out in Ludwig burg by the Prosecution and by me.
THE PRESIDENT: That was 41, was it not?
DR. FLAECHSNER: That was 41, Mr. President. which will be Exhibit 42. This also is in English and in German, and is certified in the usual way. examination of the witness Kempf, carried out on May 3rd at Kransberg by the Prosecution and by me. It is certified in the usual way. It is Exhibit No. 43.
THE PRESIDENT: How many more have you got?
DR. FLAECHSNER: There are two more.
who was questioned at Hersbruck. The record is in English and German, and the English is certified by me and the Prosecution. That is No. 44.
On page 181 of the document book--this will be Exhibit No. 45--the Court will find the testimony of Stahl, also in English and German, the English being certified by the Prosecution and by me. Karl Brandt, which is certified by the camp authorities. It is in English and German.
THE PRESIDENT: Is that all?
DR. FLAECHSNER: That will be 46, and that is all.
Mr. President, yesterday the defendant referred to excerpts of the Fuehrer talk of 3 to 5 January. This document has not yet been translated. With your permission, I shall submit it later. The Prosecution has already seen it and has no objection.
That concludes the documents which I wish to present. The Court does not want a long speech on the documents in the document book, especially since the Russian Prosecution has already presented the documents, and I conclude Mr. Speer's case.
THE PRESIDENT: The Tribunal will adjourn.
THE PRESIDENT : Dr. von Luedinghausen, the Tribunal sees that you have a supplementary request for an additional witness, Ambassador Francois Poncet, is that so, and for some additional documents ?
MR. VON LUEDINGHAUSEN : Yes, Mr. President. May I, especially with reference to the application applying to Francois Poncet, make the following remarks. The Ambassador, Francois Poncet, has in the meantime replied to the subpoena which he has received and I have had his letter two days ago through the French delegation, though only a copy thereof. The French Prosecution, however, have promised me that the original will be put before the Tribunal and they have no objections, just as the British delegation have no objections to Francois Poncet being used.
THE PRESIDENT : The letter being used you mean.
DR. VON LUEDINGHAUSEN : The letter being used, yes. The calling of the witness and the examination of the witness will, therefore , be superfluous and my corresponding application likewise.
THE PRESIDENT : That seems a convenient course to the Tribunal subject, of course, to any question of relevance in the actual subject matter of the letter. to those or not ?
DR. VON LUEDINGHAUSEN : Yes, in two cases, which, however, I have already crossed off. The two documents which I was going to submit and which have been objected to by the Prosecution have been eliminated by me and they were not being included in my document books.
THE PRESIDENT : On the document before me the Prosecution appear to have objected to three of them. I do not know whether that is true or not.
DR. VON LUEDINGHAUSEN : Two, 93 and 110 from my document books. They have been objected to and I have dropped them.
THE PRESIDENT : Yes, I beg your pardon, I was wrong. Well then, you have dropped them, that is all right. You may continue, please.
DR. VON LUEDINGHAUSEN : Mr. President, may I first of all say that up to now the translations have only been completed for document book number one. That, I think, is already available. The others, however, have not yet been completed. I should nevertheless like to be permitted firt of all to state the numbers of the documents and use them in corresponding questions, giving their numbers, of course, and secondly, possibly to be allowed to quote short passages from them so that the connection may remain intact and will save us from submitting the documents again when the document is translated, which after all would be a superfluous period of time.
THE PRESIDENT : Do you mean to use the documents before you have called the defendant ?
DR. VON LUEDINGHAUSEN : No, in the course of the examination.
THE PRESIDENT : Yes -- then you propose to call the defendant ?
DR. VON LUEDINGHAUSEN : I should like permission to do so.
CONSTANTIN VON NEURATH, defendant, took the stand and testified as follows:
BY THE PRESIDENT:
Q What is your name, please?
Q Will you repeat this oath after no: I swear by God, the Almighty and Omniscient, that I will speak the pure truth and will withold and add nothing, (The witness repeated the oath.)
THE PRESIDENT: You may sit down. BY DR. VON LUEDINGHAUSEN (Counsel for defendant von Neurath): family background, your education, and your schooling?
A I was born on 2 February 1873. On my father's side I come from an old family of civil servants. My father, my grandfather, and my greatgrandfather were ministers in Wuertemberg. On my mother's side I come from a noble family. the ancestors of which were generally officers in the Imperial Austrian Army. particular emphasis being put upon the duty of truthfulness, responsibility, patriotism and Christianity, with Christian tolerance for ether religions.
Q And then you went to the university; whore and what did you study? Berlin. I studied law, and I passed the state examinations. you were appointed Reich Foreign Minister?
A In 1901 I joined the Foreign Service of the Reich. First of all, I worked at the central office in Berlin, and then in 1903 I was posted to the Consul Generals' office in London. From there I returned to the Foreign Office , and I worked in all the departments of that office.
THE PRESIDENT: When?
THE WITNESS: 1914.
THE PRESIDENT: Do you mean you were in London eleven years?
THE WITNESS: Yes. Then I was posted to Constantinople as a consul of the Embassy, and at the end of 1916 I retired from the diplomatic service because of differences between the policy of Chancellor BethmannHollweg and my own ideas. Then I b ecame the head of the cabinet of the King of Wuertemberg until the revolution at the end of 1918.
In February 1910 the Social Democarat People'sCommissioner Ebert requested me to rejoin the diplomatic service. I did so, with the reservation that I might maintain my political attitude,and then I became Ambassador to Denmark, where my principal task was to handle the difficulty that we had with Denmark because of the so-called Schleswig question.
In December 1921 I became the Ambassador to the Quirinal in Rome, where I remained until 1930.
There I experienced the fascist Revolution, with its bloody events and effects. At the outset I had several arguments with Mussolini, which gradually, however, developed into considerable confidence which he on his part had in me. in December 1914 I was decorated for bravery before the enemy with the Iron Cross, First Class. I was wounded, and thereupon I was returned to my assignment in Constantinople.
Q What is your attitude toward church and religion? and at all times I have considered the Christian church and Christian morals to be the basis of the state. Again and again I tried to suppress the antichurch attitude of certain circles of the Party when talking to Hitler. In the case of excesses committed by Party org anizations and individuals against the church and the cloisters and so on, I have always, so far as I was able, tried to suppress them and have intervened.
DR. VON LUEDINGHAUSEN: Mr. President, a this connection I should like to draw your attention to the affidavit given by Provincial Bishop Wurm at Stuttgart, and I should like to quote from it. This affidavit is Number 1 in my document book number 1. I quote:
"I met Herr von Neurath at the time of the church struggle. I thought that I might turn to him because he came from the same county as I did and because he was a descendant of a family which was friendly toward the Protestant churches. His father was a member of the Provincial Synod. I have not been disappointed in this confidence. He has received me frequently and often has arranged for conferences between myself and other members of the Reich Cabinet. In particular, he helped me in the autumn of 1934, together with the Minister of Justice Dr. of Interior Dr. Frick and the Reich Minister of Justice Dr. Guertner, when there were illegal interventions on the part of Reich Bishop Ludwig Mueller and when, because of resistance against the domination of the churches through the German Christians, I had been removed from my office and interned in my apartment. He achieved my release from detention and my re-instatement as Bishop.
He also brought about a discussion in the Reich Chancellery.
, the result of which was that the illegal legislation which the Reich Bishop had been responsible for was withdrawn. Also in later periods of the church struggle, I always found a friendly reception and the fullest understanding on his part for the requests of the church."
May I also, in this connection, refer to the document which appears under the number 2 of my document book?
It is an affidavit from an old, intimate friend of the defendant, the solicitor and attorney, Manfred Zimmerman, in Berlin.
May I quote just a brief passage from this affidavit?
THE PRESIDENT: I don't think it is necessary to read all of it. The Tribunal will, of course, consider it.
DR. VON LUEDINGHAUSEN: Very well, but actually, the reason I had attached importance to it was because the second document comes from a man who has known the defendant intimately for over forty years. I was interested, for that reason, that next to the declaration of Bishop Wurm I should also quote from a man who shared the daily life of von Neurath and know him.
However, Mr. President, if you believe that it is not necessary for me to read it here, then I shall only refer to it.
THE PRESIDENT: You need not read it at all, but you can draw our attention to the most material passages.
DR. VON LEUDINGHAUSEN: Yes, Mr. President, that is the passage which I was going to quote. It is on page 5 of that affidavit, under number 5. It begins:
"Constantin von Neurath, according to his family, education, and development, is a man whose personality is established in every respect." I shall not quote the remainder. the name of Roller, and the Mayor of Enzweihinger, which is the municipality from which Von Neurath originates. Those have the number 24 in my document book number 1. BY DR. VON LUEDINGHAUSEN:
Q Mr. von Neurath, what was your attitude towards the Jewish problem?
A I have never been an anti-Semitic person. My Christian and humanitarian convictions would have prevented me from being that. A repression of the undue Jewish influence in all sectors of public and cultural life, as it had developed after the first World War in Germany, however, was regarded by me as desirable.
But all measures of force were turned down by me, just as was the propaganda against the Jews.
The entire racial policy of the National Socialist Party was considered wrong by me, and for that reason I fought against it. stem the tide of their being carried through, and non-Aryan members of the Foreign Office were held by me as long as was possible. However, After the Party had received the decision regarding the promotion of civil servants, it was difficult to confine myself to defending individual persons. I did enable several of them, to emigrate. the Party, and, in spite of the emphatic protests, in Nurnberg, it was passed.
DR. VON LUEDINGHAUSEN: May I draw yourattention, in this connection, to a document from which I shall quote a brief sentence. It is an affidavit from the former Ambassador Kurt Pruefer, which is number 4 in my document book. Ambassador Pruefer was a Ministry Director in the Foreign Office when von Neurath was Foreign Minister. May I quote briefly? This refers to his attitude towards civil servants of a different religion.
THE PRESIDENT: Will you give us the page?
DR. VON LUEDINGHAUSEN: It is page 9 of the German.
THE PRESIDENT: Yes, and our page 21?
DR. VON LUEDINGHAUSEN: Yes "Von Neurath has, in many cases, used his influence on behalf of officials of the Foreign Office of another religion who, because of their race, their religion, or their original corrections to other parties, were being objected to by the National Socialist . Thus, until Hindenburg's death, and as long as Neurath still had full power in all questions relating to civil servants, a number of officials of Jewish or mixed blood remained in their positions.
Infact, there were even me promotions of such officials.
"Only after Hindenburg's death, when the Reich Ministers, as well as other department chiefs, were told by a Fuehrer decree that they were no longer entitled to make final decisions in a 1 questions of civil servants, which powers were then transferred to the deputy of the Fuehrer, did it happen that the radicalism of the Party penetrat into this sector too, which, particularly after Neurath's resignation, adopted ore and mere severe forms "
THE PRESIDENT: Which answer was that?
DR. VON LUEDINGHAUSEN: That was the affidavit of the former Ambassado Pruefer.
THE PRESIDENT: Yes, I know that. I wanted to know which answer it was.
DR. VON LUEDINGHAUSEN: I see -- number 4. It is an affidavit, it isn't an interrogatory in that sense.
THE PRESIDENT: It is paragraphed in our copy, at any rate.
DR. VON LUEDINGHAUSEN: Number 18; it is the answer to question number 18. of Munich. Baroness Ritter is a distant relative of the defendant. She is the widow of the former Bavarian Ambassador to the Holy See. She *---* von Neurather for many years, and she knows his train of thought intimately. quite from page 3, just one short passage:
"The same tolerant attitude as he had displayed towards Christian questions was also displayed by von Neurath towards the Jewish questions. Therefore, he refuted Hitler's racial policy fundamentally. In practice he actually succeeded in preventing any elimination of Jews under his jurisdiction until the year 1937.
"Furthermore, he helped, whenever possible, all persons who were close to him professionally and who had been affected by the legislation concerning Jews, in so far as he was able, in order to deliver them from financial and other disadvantages." BY DR. VON LUEDINGHAUSEN:
Q Mr. von Neurath, what was your attitude toward Hitler's anti-Jewish tendencies and measures?
A In them I saw anti-Semitism. It wasn't altogether rare in the German people, but normally, however, it hadn't had any practical results. I protested to Hitler concerning any excesses of which I knew, and not only for foreign political reasons. I suggested that he should hold back Goebbels, and particularly Himmler.
Q In this connection I should like to interpose, a question. What did you know about the activities and excesses committed by the Gestapo, the SA, and the SS respectively? witness Gisevius, who appeared here same tine ago. He said:
"Above that, I submitted to one of his closest associates, Ambassador von Buelow, as much material as I possible could." that material repeatedly. Are we more concerned with material which is supposed to refer to accesses, particularly against foreigners, of course? generally had to inform me about the activities of the Gestapo, is a very incorrect guess. Officially, through complaints from Ambassadors and Charges d'affaires, I heard of rows and street fights and arrests carried out by the Police and the SA. I knewnothing about the general institution of the Gestapo and its activities. Minister of the Interior and Chief of the Gestapo should explain the matter to me, and then I demanded that the guilty party should be punished.
Q. What did you know, or, respectively, how much did you hear about concentration camps? When did you first hear of this institution altogether, and when, if at all, did you hear of the conditions which prevailed in those camps?
A. The institution of the so-called concentration camps was known to me from the Boer War. The existence of such camps in Germany, however, became known to me, I should think, approximately at the end of 1934 or the beginning of 1335 when two officials from my office, amongst them the chief secretary, who has been mentioned by Gisevius, were suddenly arrested. When I investigated their whereabouts, I discovered that they had been removed to a so-called concentration camp. there were very servious arguments between the two and myself; and upon my immediate complaint to Hitler, these two officials were released. Subsequently I asked them how they had been treated, and both of them concurred when they told me that apart from the lack of freedom, the treatment had not been had at all. Oranienburg. Later on I learned of the existence of a camp at Dachau, and in 1939 I also board of Buchenwald, because the Czech students who had been arrested by Himmler were taken there. particular of the treatment of the prisoners or even of the extermination camps I only hear here in Nurnberg.
Q. By whom and when were you appointed Reich foreign minister, and how did that appointment happen?
A. I was appointed foreign minister on the 2nd of June, 1932, by Reich President von Hindenburg. As early as 1929, after Stresemann's death, Hindenburg had intended to appoint me foreign minister. At that time, I had refused, because considering the party conditions existing in the Reichstag in those days I saw no possibility for an able foreign policy. I was not a member of any of the thirty parties, so that I would have had no support in the Reichstag of those days.
Q. In this connection -
A. Just one moment.
Q. I beg your pardon.
A. Hindenburg, however, obtained my promise that I would follow his cause if the fatherland should find itself in an emergency.
DR. von LUEDINGHAUSEN: In this connection, may I quote the telegram with which the Foreign Office was informing con Neurath of the fact that the Reich President desired that he should serve the government in a leading position? The telegram has the exhibit number 6 in my document book.
"For the Ambassador personally.
"To be diciphered by himself.
"Berlin, 31 May 1932".
"The Reich President requests you, in view of your prior favorable statements, to take over the Foreign Ministry in the presidential cabinet about to be formed, which will be made up of right wing personalities free from political party allegiance and ** ** rest less upon the Reichstag than upon the authority of the Reich President. The Reich President addresses an urgent appeal to you not to refuse your services to the Fatherland in these serious hour. Should you not be able immediately to give a favorable answer, please come immediately." the Foreign Office. from the chief of the political department of the Foreign Office referring to Neurath's appointment to the post of Reich Foreign Minister, a letter which had been written to Ambassador Ruemelin at the time. The author of the letter is the ministry director Dr. Koepke, and he will be examined before this Tribunal to confirm the correctness of the letter; that is to say, the fact that this is an actual copy of the original addressed to the Ambassador.