would had to have gone involuntarily; right?
A No. There was rise a voluntary recruitment maintained and that has to be understood in such a way. When those workers
Q Wait, wait, defendant. Don't let us fool over this. It is quite simple. If there was a law which made it necessary for men to work when their quotas had been called up, they had to work, didn't they? Right? but they also could volunteer -- instead of working in their own country -- to work in Germany also. France or in Germany, so in that sense it was voluntary; is that right?
Q Now, just two or three more questions. You have answered clearly, I think. I just want to ask you about three documents. I think that is all. I am not going into detail. Do you remember the document known as R-124, which was the conference on March 1st of 1944? You remember that conference?
THE TRIBUNAL (Mr. Biddle:) Would someone show him the German notes of that, please, if you have them. BY THE TRIBUNAL (Mr. Biddle:)
Q. Do you remember the conference? Have you looked at the notes?
Q Yes, that is right. Did you look over those notes?
A Now?
Q. Do they about tell what took place in substance? In substance, there was an account of the conference, wasn't there? cannot remember the substance of the conference.
Q. Well, did you find anything in the notes, as you read them over, which you thought in substance was a great mistake?
Q Have you read the notes, have you read them? At that time the notes of the central planning were not available to me. I didn't even know that notes were taken in the central planning.
Q Don't go on with all this talk. I simply asked you whether you read them and you said you hadn't read them all. That is all we need.
A. No, I haven't read them all.
Q Inexact passages? five million, that is quite an impossible proportion. didn't understand and I am going to ask you what you meant by it. You spoke of your special labor supply executives. Was that the committee or special police that you spoke about yesterday, about a thousand people in it? Do you remember?
Q That is the same thing? That was the committee that you said had to be specially trained by the SS, I think, and by the police in France or wherever they were used?
Q You spoke of them being armed. Why were they armed? Why did they carry arms? whom they recruited. They had to have some means of defense agains attacks.
Q You didn't usually have anything to do with the police, did you? Why did you organize this police corps? Why did you help organize this police corps, an armed police corps; why did you do it?
such as it was to be understood.
Q Never mind going over describing it. We know what it was. Why did you organize it? I thought you kept away from police measures. places which frequently were raided and attacked by the resistance movement.
Q I see what you mean. This was an organization to protect the recruiting that was going on; is that right? 016-PS, which was dated April 20, 1944, was the labor mobilization program? That is the program which you issued and signed, is it not? You look at it. That is the program you signed?
Q It is not? I do not know what you mean.
A I have not understood you correctly. I understood 1944.
Q No, no. OnApril 20, 1942.
Q You issued the labor mobilization program. Is that the program signed by you shown in the exhibit 016-PS? That is the program, is it not?
A The program -- May I say the following in connection with that: That was a program which --
Q Defendant, please answer the question. All I want to know is, first, you did issue a mobilization program, did you not?
Q And that is the one shown in that exhibit, is it not? I am simply identifying it.
Q All right. I wanted to ask you a little bit about bringing the youths of the occupied territories into the Reich. Certain of the youths were brought in, were they not?
Q Against your desires, you said. How many were brought in?
A That I cannot possibly sa* from my own knowledge. I do not know. There were adolescents.
Q What were the ages? How young were they? there were some who on the basis of measures taken with regard to refugees or the evacuation of other localities came with their families. Then the second time, on the basis of the so-called Heu Action, 1944, youths came to the Reich, but without my having anything to do with it. children, do you not? You know that, do you not?
Q What was the purpose of bringing them in? Were they recruited for labor, or were they to be trained in the Reich and educated. youths have been brought into the Reich. A part of these youths were not recruited or brought in by agents, but in the carrying out of measures for evacuation, they came with their families, and the -
Q Wait a minute. We will leave out the ones that came with the families. Some were recruited for labor, were they not -- some for work, were they not? is under 14 years -- could not be brought in. By agreements, such as can be found and have been submitted in the documents, other offices brought them in for education, care and comfort.
Q You just don't answer the questions. I asked you whether some were brought in for work; children over 14 who were still under 20 were brought in for work, were they not -- recruited for work?
A Yes. Only volunteers were brought.
Q Only volunteers were brought in?
Q You did not recruit any youth involuntarily; you mean that?
A I didn't.
Q I do not mean you personally; I mean the administration. especially girls, involuntarily. Only voluntarily. Domestic servants, for instance, were only volunteers. citizens, were they not?
BY THE PRESIDENT: law to force people in occupied countries to come to Germany to work? it was described to me as admissible. There was no place where objections were raised against these measures, but it was quite according to the demands of all offices.
Q I did not ask you that. I asked you whether anybody advised you that it was in accordance with international law. matters? and that was considered correct on the basis of the conception that, with the surrender of these territories, the institution of German regulations, under the circumstances, was admissble, and also under the existing treaties. That was my conviction. entitled, under international law, to force people to come from Russia to work in Germany? Foreign Office was not competent for the questions in the East, I believe, I don't know.
Q Whom did you ask for advice on the subject?
A The decrees were found by me when I came into my office. These decrees had already been issued, and I was charged with them by the Fuehrer, also, explicitly.
Q Then, the answer is that you asked nobody? Is that right?
A I did not ask anybody. I could not ask anybody because all officers wanted these measures and accepted them. There was never a discussion to the contrary. recruiting for labor? reported in document 1292-PS, that you would do everything in your power to furnish the requested manpower in 1944, but whether it would succeed depended primarily on what German enforcement a ents would be made available and that your project could not be carried out with domestic enforcement agents? Does that not mean that the police would have to enforce your recruitment programs? meeting was not very exact -- I have complained to the Fuehrer that I will probably not be able to carry out his program because there were larte partisan areas, and as long as these partisan areas were not cleared in such a way that a regular administration could be established there, then, also, no recruitment could take place there. Therefore, at first, normal administrative conditions had to be re-established and that could only be done by those organs whose task it was.
Q What did you mean by German enforcement agents? but in some territories that was too week. enforcement agents put at his disposal re extremely few, if those enforcement agents were not police agents? I believe, expressed, according to my recollection - - the thought that for the pacification of these areas he did not have enough troops because they were all out at the front, That did not refer to the recruitment and administration, but to the re-establishment of normal conditions in that area.
Q Well then, are you saying that it was not the task of the police to help you in recruitment, but that it was the task of the military ? quite different in application.
There were areas in which the army commanders had the sole executive powers, and there were areas in which the civil administration had the executive power on the German side. There was a third kind of area, the zones of military operations, the rear areas, in which the supreme commanders of the army had the executive power. tary, or it was some other force which was going to carry out your forcible recruiting, is that right ? administration Was available, which was not identical with the military or the police, but these armed forces organizations dealt with the special branches of the administration under a special head of that branch.
Q Well, I don' t understand then what you meant by saying that your project could not be carried out with domestic enforcement agents.
THE PRESIDENT : That is all I have to ask. The defendant can return to the dock.
THE PRESIDENT : Yes, Dr. Servatius. Go on.
DR.SERVATIUS : Mr. President, referring to Document 3, there is a list of the office of Sauckel which explains the position of the witness whom a am about to call. departments, one the department of the witness Timm, the socalled Europe Office, Europa Amt, which again had three sub-departments, one for the West, one for the East, and the third for the South and Southeast.
MAX TIMM :a witness, took the stand and testified as follows :
BY THE PRESIDENT :
Q Will you repeat this oath after me : the pure truth and will withhold and add nothing.
( The witness repeated the oath.)
THE PRESIDENT : You may sit down.
BY DR. SERVATIUS: ment Commitment of Manpower.
Q Were you already there when Sauckel took office ? Sauckel took over the office ? energetic, hard-working man, who was inclined to get exited at times, and who demanded much of his assistants, but also made great demands of himself.
Q How was he in carrying out his measures ? there was a good deal of confusion. Everybody dealt with commitment of manpower.
Q Was that the reason why that office had been created ? against vorious offices, and Sauckel was the strong man, and particularly the strong political figure,who could keep things in order.
Q How did Sauckel start this work ? Did he adhere to the regulations of the administration , or did he do it in his own way, in a new manner ? to do his best to do administrative things in an orderly way. He was generally known as one Gauleiter who favored the workers.
In order to inform all offices of his administration, at regular intervals he had regular staff meetings, Stabbesprechungen, in which the most imprtant things were discussed.
Q What was your position in that office ?
a subdivision or branch, later, a department.
Q. What did that department deal with?
A. That department had to deal with the commitment of all manpower action, regulate it, especially the question of skilled workers, the training or workers, advice and education.
Q. Was your office also called Europe Office?
A. Yes.
Q. Could you see most of what went on in the office?
A. Not completely, due to the fact that Gauleiter Sauckel at the same time remained Gauleiter in Thuringia, and that he worked in Berlin in the Thuringia House, whereas the special department put at his disposal remained in the Ministry of Labor.
Q. You didn't understand my question. The question was whether you, from your office, could see everything which went on in Commitment of Manpower without regard to the activity of Sauckel.
A. No, not completely, because we were not informed about all events.
Q. What were the staff meetings, staff conferences? Who took part in them and what type of people were in them?
A. Primarily the liaison men to the various branches were called to staff conferences.
Q. What kind of people were they?
A. Those people were of various types, civil servants, but also economi
Q. But you should tell us from what offices they came, or were they people who were employed by Sauckel?
A. They were primarily people of different branches, such as the representatives of the plenipotentiary for the Four Year Plan, representativ of the armament industry, of the Ministry for the East, and other department;
Q. Was that the so-called specialist staff?
A. That was the so-called specialist staff.
Q. How many people were in it?
A. In my estimation, there may have been about 15 to 20 people.
Q. Besides that, Sauckel had a personal staff. What kind of people we in that?
A. The personal staff consisted of many men who Sauckel had brought with him from Weimar, men of his former surroundings.
Q. Did he have specialists, referents? Who were these?
A. He had two personal assistants, Landrat Berk, and Ministerialdirektor Stothfang.
Q. And what was the position of Dr. Didier?
A. Dr. Didier, as far as I remember, was the first referent.
Q. How were these staff meetings carried on? What was discussed?
A. All matters of commitment of manpower, that is, commitment of manpower all over Germany, were discussed, and the sessions were generally introduced by a complete report by Sauckel in which he explained his plans for the future.
Q. Were the questions of recruitment in occupied territories also discussed, and, what is most important here, what was reported about the difficulties which existed there, the methods of which we have heard?
A. Questions of recruitment were generally not discussed there; it was more questions of things in the Reich.
Q. I ask you, first, about the occupied territores. For instance, was there discussed a case which has been presented here, the surrounding of a movie theater, seizing of people there, and similar cases?
A. Yes, the case of the movie is know to me.
Q. That was discussed?
A. Yes, that was discussed.
Q. And what was done about it?
A. Sauckel charged several gentlemen -- I don't know precisely whom -with making all possible investigations in order to clarify the case.
Q. Were other cases reported?
A. There wasn't a single case which could have been compared in seriousness with that case that has been described here.
Q. Was there also discussion about the question of labor conditions in Germany for foreign workers?
A. There were discussions in the staff conferences about question of labor conditions.
Q. And wasn't it reported on these occasions that conditions existed in individual camps or industries which were objectionable?
A. Cases of that kind were discussed. In general, they were in the field of clothing, nutrition, and similar things.
Q. How did these reports come into the staff conferences? Who reported them? Where did one find out about them?
practice and established quite a system of inspection and inspectors in order to get an accurate impression about these questions and these reports of inspections which were discussed in the staff conference.
THE PRESIDENT: I have an announcement to make. May and the Memorandum of the Defense Counsel in reply thereto, dated the 29th of May, the Tribunal makes the following order: of the individual defendants ge heard at the conclusion of the evidence relating to the individual defendants, and before the introduction of evidence relating to the accused organizations, is granted. The Tribunal, however, will not decide the question of the guilt or innocence of any defendant until after all the evidence has been heard; and, if any of the evidence relating to the accused organizations is thought by counsel for any defendant to support his defense, he may ask to be heard further with regard thereto. The Tribunal at the conclusion of the evidence relating to the individual defendants will accordingly hear first the argument in their behalf and then the summing up of the Prosecution. The statements of each of the def plants in his own behalf will be heard at the conclusion of the trial before judgment. innocence of the individual defendants will be more helpful if heard immediately at the conclusion of the evidence bearing thereon, and before the Tribunal has departed from this and gone into the branch of the case relating to the organization This arrangement, furthermore, will give the Commissioners who are taking the evidence as to the organizations, further time in which to complete their work. The defendants will not be prejudiced in any way by this arrangement; for, apart from the fact that their cases are essentially different from cases of the organizations, they will be allowed to call to the attention of the Tribunal any circumstance developed on the hearing of the organizations which is thought to be helpful to their defense. The Tribunal finds nothing in the Charter which forbids this procedure, and article 9 leaves to the discretion of the Tribunal the manner of hearing evidence in behalf of the accused organizations.
examine the witnesses called by counsel in behalf of the organizations or to take part in such proceedings save when specially authorized to do so by the Tribunal.
The Tribunal will sit tomorrow at ten o'clock in open session until one o'clock.
(The Tribunal adjourned until 1 June, 1946, at 1000 hours.)
Karr
DR. KUBUSCHOK (Counsel for defendant von Papen): May I ask permission for the defendant von Papen to be absent on Monday and Tuesday to prepare his case. He will represented by my colleague Dr. Nelte. BY DR. SERVATIUS:
Q. Witness, yesterday we were speaking of the staff conferences. I should like to come back to this question later when we talk about centrals.
First I should like to discuss the relationship of Sauckel's agency to the superior agency, I should, like to have that explained by you. To whom was Sauckel subordinate?
A. The Plenipotentiary General for labor commitments was under the Deputy for the Four Year Plan.
Q. And what did he have to do with Hitler?
A. He kept in close contact with Hitler and as far as possible he presented his plans to Hitler in personal talks.
Q. Was there constant contact with the Four Year Plan through a liaison man or how was that done?
A. There were various ways to keep contact. There were liaison men from both sides. The Plenipotentiary General sent men of his staff to report to the office of the Deputy for the Four year Plan and on the other hand, as far as I recall, there were almost constantly delegates of the agency of the Four Year Plan who took part in the staff conferences. In addition, the Plenipotentiary General had personal talks with the Plenipotentiary for the Four Year Plan.
Q. How was the cooperation with the other ministries conducted, with Goebbels, in the first place?
Karr
A. The Plenipotentiary General on principle felt it was important to keep as close contact as possible with the other departments and to have his plans and intentions approved beforehand. Cooperation with the Propaganda Minister was not always as good, especially not at the time when the Minister, Dr. Goebbels, was commissioner for the total war effort.
Q. After the proclamation of total war was Sauckel subordinate to Goebbels?
A. Their relationship was not quite clear. As I understood it had to be considered in this way. The commissioner for the total war effort had comprehensive powers for all tasks. In fact, he was superior to the G.B.A. (Plenipotentiary General for Manpower).
THE PRESIDENT: What was the date of the proclamation of total war? BY DR. SERVATIUS:
Q. Does the witness know when total war was declared?
A. I do not remember the date.
Q. It was about the time after the fall of Stalingrad.
As to relations with Himmler, what cooperation was there with that agency?
A. as for personal relations with the G.B.A. with Himmler I know nother. In Sauckel's labor staff there was a liaison man of the Reichsfuehrer SS, especially on general police questions as far as they might turn up in the labor committment program.
Q. What kind of questions were there?
A. Various questions, especially the question of insignia for foreign workers.
Q. Barbed wire questions?
A. Barbed wire questions; all questions which turn up in the police sector.
Q. Problems of labor education? about them as there were not detailed conferences on them.
Q. Now, I should like to go over to relations in the occupied territories. With whom were negotiations carried on; to whom did one turn when making demands in the occupied territories?
A. One had to turn to the district governments whether they were military commanders, Reich commissioners or whatever they were.
Q. What kind of position did the deputies of Sauckel have?
A. The deputies had been intended as men to carry out Sauckel's plans and instructions and to give them direct authorities but this goal was not reached since they were not able to establish their authority. I recall that the Plenipotentiary General, therefore, intended to ask Hitler for more comprehensive powers. I believe I recall that the Plenipotentiary General once announced that he had learned from Hitler himself or his entourage that Hitler was not inclined to extend these powers since the loval government, especially the military commanders, did not want to release their responsibility so that the Plenipotentiary General had only one resource, of negotiating directly with those agencies.
Q Why were the deputies not able to exert their authority? opposition was so strong that they could not assert themselves.
Q Did these deputies not have another position at the same time? the deputies were generally incorporated into the local administration. With few exceptions they were entrusted with the direction of the labor section, or were incorporated into the section for economy and labor, The military commander in general, used them as administrative officials.
Q From whom did this arrangement originate? Was that at Sauckel's suggestion of the local administration? the question of the position of the deputies. The local government did not want any men in their districts who were independent of their administration.
Q Then this rather reduced the power of the deputies?
Q How did Sauckel exercise his power to issue instructions? exercised in this form. Instructions, directives, and decrees were issued in the normal way, through the central agencies. there other agencies concerned with labor matters? after the appointment of the plenipotentiary General for Labor Commitments, agencies abroad interfered in labor matters or carried on recruitment; that is, agencies which did not have the power to do so.
THE PRESIDENT: What is he talking about when he says "at that time"?
DR. SERVATIUS: I did not quite understand.
THE PRESIDENT: He said "at that ime" At what time? What time is he speaking about? BY DR. SERVATIUS:
Q At what time was that?
had been appointed.
Q When was he appointed?
Q In what way did the recruiting take place? Was it voluntary? Can you distinguish the types? the technical point of view -- that is, from the point of view of the use of labor which was recruited -- only voluntary recruiting could lead to success. It was the people who were willing to work who would achieve the necessary produ ction.
Q Was that the point of view which Sauckel emphasized? learned of no events which indicated another point of view. He repeatedly emphasized that the basis of recruitment would have to be voluntary.
Q Did he issue many directives and give many speeches?
THE PRESIDENT: Dr. Servatius, and witness, will you try and cause between the questions and the answers? the witness' sentences seem to me to be running on, whereas if he would pause it would give the interpreter some chance.