A But that was --
Q (Interposing) No, that is all right. recruitment. Who appointed the agents who were to do private recruiting? Who appointed them? Did the employers hire agents to get workmen for them?
A (No response)
Q Do you know what I mean by "private recruiting"?
Q That was done by agents, was it not? Belgium, I permitted that, as an exception, on the basis of the agreement withthese French organizations, agents could be active, and could be used.
Q Again, witness, I did not ask you that at all. You do not listen. I said, who appointed these agents that worked as private recruiting agents? who appointed them? I myself did not know them -- together with the French organizations. That was an arrangement -
Q (Interposing) That is enough. And they would be paid on, I think you said, a commission basis; is that right? They would be paid, in other words, so much per workman? Every workman they brought in, they would get a fee for that; is that right?
A Yes. I do not know the details myself any more, but it is so.
Q Now, I take it when you used the word "shanghai", which you referred to and explained, that simply means private recruiting with force. That is all it means, is it not?
A (No response)
Q That is all it means, is it not? Private recruiting with force?
Q Now, wait a minute. Can youshanghai a man without using force? Did youshanghai them by persuasion ? Did you? wanted to get volunteers: In a friendly way, in a coffee house, a glass of beer or wine was taken, so that it would not be done in the offices. I mean the bad ways of shanghai-ing, which are in my memory from my experiences as a seaman.
It may have been a drastic way of telling, but not a concrete explanation.
Q Oh, I know you didn't order it. That wasn't my question. You mean "Shanghai just meant that you had a friendly glass of wine with a workman and then he join ed up? Was that what you meant?
A I understood it so. In the way in which I have expressed it in the central planning, maybe in a drastic form, in order to bring up some counter arguments against the objections which have been made and to prove that I made efforts.
Q Why did you object to this private recruitment? What was the objection to : about the recruiting of labor of manpower, according to the German principles.
Q Was it contrary to German law?
Q I am not interested for the moment in your convictions. I said, was it con trary to German law? It was, wasn't it. against the law?
A It was generally, against the labor laws. As far as possible. there should not be any private recruitment. But may I say as an explanation, Your Honor, that after the laborer had been won over, the obligation of the State, on the basis of the State contract, still existed. It is not to be understood that the worker in question came without contract into the Reich. That contract was granted to him in the same way as yo everybody else.
Q A laborer that was "Shanghaied" by private agents had the same rights, once he was in the employment, as anyone else; is that what you mean?
Q Now I am going to come to another subject for a moment. I simply want to understand your defense and what your point of view is. Now see if this is correct You did no recruiting yourself. The police did no recruiting. Your main job was, in the first place, to see that everything was done lawfully and legally. Isn't that right, that was your important function? to have the recruiting done the law; that is right, isn't it? That was your job? course. They were just orders that were signed by the Fuehrer or by you or by some of the ministers. When you say "laws",you mean of course decrees?
to be decreed by the Fuehrer and issued by the chiefs in the territories. simply had to get certain decrees signed; that was part of your duty, to get them signed?
Q I didn't say you signed them. I understand that. You have explained that in great detail. Now let's see where the police come in. They had nothing to do with the recruiting. Once a decree was signed, it became law, didn't it? When a decree was signed it was law?
Q And when any man resisted being brought in as a workman or didn't register or didn't live up to his contract, he became a criminal; that is right, isn't it
A He perpretrated the law. We did not call it a crime.
Q But he broke the law?
Q He didn't commit a crime. Did he or did he not commit a crime? Supposing a man failed to register when he was told to register for work, was that a crime?
A No, that was not a crime. We jusy called it a perpretration in Germany. police; is that right?
A Not immediately, not at once; but he was, in an administrative way, through the Labor Office there, he was requested to -
Q Well, you explained all that. He got three or four days and then if he didn't finally register, for the perpretration he was turne over to the police; is that right? There were various-ways -law that that was when the police came in. The police were there simply to see that the law was not broken; that is right, isn't it? That was their function?
Q Well, why do you always say "it was not my task"?
I didn't ask you if it was your task. I am just talking about the police; I am talking about you. Now when those labor decrees were violated, then it was, at a certain time, the police began to function; isn't that right? physical resistance, then the police had to be called in, didn't they? If there was physical resistance you had to call in the police, didn't you?
A Yes, but I can say that that was hardly ever reported to me. Mostly, one did not do it. It can be clearly seen from the lists of the workers transports for instance, in the year 1944. of the large program not ten per cent came to Germany and we had no other way -
Q You have given all that evidence before. I just want to get a picture of the whole system. Now the army, I think you said, the role the Army played was where there had been sabotage or resistance in the occupied territories the Army would have to clean that out so that the Labor Administration could work. That would be right, wouldn't it? by resistance movements, not only in the field of manpower but also in other functions where the public safety of German troops could not be guaranteed -
Q I am not interested in other functions. I am interested particularly in the field of manpower at this time. So that, for instance, In Poland or Russia, where it was impossible to recruit people on account of the resistance to the recruiting or the resistance to the Army. then the Army would go in and help with the recruiting. It wouldn't be unfair to say that, would it?
Q That is right. By the way, did any of these workmen who resisted or who broke the law or who did not register after three days, were they ever tried by court or were they simply handled by the police if necessary? They were never tried by court, were they?
A That I could not tell you in detail or in general. There Were various methods used. I could not say that in detail.
Q Well, let's get that in particular. Did any of your decrees provide for trial by a court of such persons?
decrees within the territories because I was not the competant authority for that
Q All right. I am not very clear on this picture of camps. Let's look at that for a moment. Where were what you called I think distribution or transition camps, were there not?
Q How many?
Q Do you think there were more than a hundred?
A No, I don't believe that.
Q But perhaps nearly a hundred?
A No, I can't believe that either. I assume -
Q You could give no figure on that? forty.
Q In the Reich?
Q were those transition camps also in the occupied territories, in France? France and how many, that I could not say. There were in the West, along the border, reception stations, and in the East, along the border, there were transition camps, which had as their purpose another physical examination and-
Q I think that is enough. I think you have answered that enough. Now there were also what you called the labor training camps. Do you remember, you said there were also labor training camps?
A Yes. Yes, there were.
Q How many?
Q Maybe fifty or a hundred?
A No. I can not tell you even approximately howmany because I have never seen the list. They were not subordinate to me.
Q Who were they subordinate to? I knew, to Gruppenfuehrer Mueller. were the other concentration camps and so on?
A I have to assume that also but I can't say it because I have never seen any such camps.
Q That would not be improbable, would it?
A No. These camps were subordinate exclusively to the police.
Q To the police. Now who went to the labor training camps?
AAccording to my knowledge, I heard very little about that. People who were sent there were the people who, in many cases, had committed violations of the labor order and discipline in industries and so on.
Q Thank you very much. That is all I want to know about that point. In other words, people who didn't turn up for registration or who broke their contracts were sent for training. Now what was the training? What does that mean "training"? How were they trained?
A That I could not tell you. I assume that they had to work. There was a period of, I believe, from eight days to fifty-six days, I can't say for sure, but I only heard about it in this court room .
Q. You see, you were after all, were you not, Plenipotentiary, so you must have known something about those matters. There wer labor camps as well as labor training camps, weren't there?
A. Yes, there were, and I want to distinguish between them.
Q. I will distinguish. Let me ask you the question. The Labor camps were camps where workmen were sent and housed who were working in industry; isn't that right? There were simply camps where workmen were housed and lived; is that right?
A. Where they lived.
Q. That is right; and the labor training camps were different from the labor camps, weren't they?
A. There were in the first place different. The labor training camps was an institution of the Reichfuehrer SS; the labor camps in which they lived, were established by the industries or by the use of industries where the workers were employed.
Q. So when a man was sent to a labor training camp, he wasn't sent simply to labor, he was being punished, wasn't he, for having broken the law? That must be right , isn't it?
A. To my knowledge, he came into a labor training camp,in order to be trained for the work and for puctuality and so on, and at the same time, it was a punishment for a violation committed by him.
Q. Were there any decrees with respect to the labor training camps, any regulations?
A. I know of no regulation. They must have been issued by the Reichsfuehrer SS and Chief of Police. On my part there were no decrees, no regulations.
Q. So, although part of your duty was to look after the foreign laborers who were brought over here, that stopped after they were turned over to the police and you had no more jurisdiction; is that right?
A. It is right, but in a way I have to correct that. I did not have the task to care for the workers; I only had the task to get the workers to the industries. The supervision about the camps and the care and comforts was in no way my task.
Q. Defendant, we clearly understand that. You had practically no executive functions but you repeatedly said that you passed decrees -- by the hundreds, you said -- for improving the condition of the men. Now, we know that you didn't have the job to feed them or to house them but you did one of your main jobs; one of your main jobs was to try to keep them in as good condition as possible and that was the reason you were interested in any complaints. We all understand that, don't we; that is correct -- one of your functions to do that, wasn't it?
A. It was one part; part of the functions that were taken over by me were not in the mission with which I had been charged, but the complaints with which I was confronted every day were the cojplaints that there weren't sufficient workers available. My task was the guidance and the acquisition of workers but out of my own interests, I pointed out the necessities and the requisites to deal with the care and comfort of the workers.
Q. It was a voluntary job on your part. It wasn't part of your duty but nevertheless you did it. But, now, let me come a little bit to the workers themselves. I think we are very clear or comparatively so as to the numbers that were brought in. I want to know how many were voluntary and how many were involuntary. Now, before you answer that, I mean those workers who were brought in not under any law but simply who volunteered for work of their own accord. There were not very many of those, I suppose, were there?
A. Yes, there were a great many workers who, without legal compulsion but on the basis of propaganda and recruitment, came and on the basis of the facts that in Germany the wages and such things, they were comparatively high and regulated there with a great many workers --
Q. Let us take a look at that. There came a time when the laws applying to German workers were applied to workers for foreign countries; isn't that true?
A. Yes.
Q. I mean, every German had to work, did n't he, under the law? Right?
A. Yes, that is right. Q. And that law was finally applied to foreign workers as well, as you just said Right?
A. That law was also introduced into the Occupied Territories.
Q. For everyone alike. So that after that law was introduced, there was no such thing as Voluntary work because after that law was introduced, everyone had to work, did n't they?
A. Yes, as far as the Occupied Territories were concerned, as far as they were requested, according to the demands.
Q. So when you were talking about involuntary work, that must have applied to the time before that law was passed? Right?
A. Yes; yes, there was, however --
Q. When was the law passed?
A That law, from late Fall 1942, at various dates was proclaimed. I cannot tell the exact dates on the various territories but I ask to be permitted to say that also under this law, voluntary workers till could and did go voluntarily to Germany.
Q. You are right. If they hadn't, they would have none involuntarily, wouldn't they?
A. No.
Q. Why not?
A. Only certain quotas were requested: not all the workers were requested for Germany.
would had to have gone involuntarily; right?
A No. There was rise a voluntary recruitment maintained and that has to be understood in such a way. When those workers
Q Wait, wait, defendant. Don't let us fool over this. It is quite simple. If there was a law which made it necessary for men to work when their quotas had been called up, they had to work, didn't they? Right? but they also could volunteer -- instead of working in their own country -- to work in Germany also. France or in Germany, so in that sense it was voluntary; is that right?
Q Now, just two or three more questions. You have answered clearly, I think. I just want to ask you about three documents. I think that is all. I am not going into detail. Do you remember the document known as R-124, which was the conference on March 1st of 1944? You remember that conference?
THE TRIBUNAL (Mr. Biddle:) Would someone show him the German notes of that, please, if you have them. BY THE TRIBUNAL (Mr. Biddle:)
Q. Do you remember the conference? Have you looked at the notes?
Q Yes, that is right. Did you look over those notes?
A Now?
Q. Do they about tell what took place in substance? In substance, there was an account of the conference, wasn't there? cannot remember the substance of the conference.
Q. Well, did you find anything in the notes, as you read them over, which you thought in substance was a great mistake?
Q Have you read the notes, have you read them? At that time the notes of the central planning were not available to me. I didn't even know that notes were taken in the central planning.
Q Don't go on with all this talk. I simply asked you whether you read them and you said you hadn't read them all. That is all we need.
A. No, I haven't read them all.
Q Inexact passages? five million, that is quite an impossible proportion. didn't understand and I am going to ask you what you meant by it. You spoke of your special labor supply executives. Was that the committee or special police that you spoke about yesterday, about a thousand people in it? Do you remember?
Q That is the same thing? That was the committee that you said had to be specially trained by the SS, I think, and by the police in France or wherever they were used?
Q You spoke of them being armed. Why were they armed? Why did they carry arms? whom they recruited. They had to have some means of defense agains attacks.
Q You didn't usually have anything to do with the police, did you? Why did you organize this police corps? Why did you help organize this police corps, an armed police corps; why did you do it?
such as it was to be understood.
Q Never mind going over describing it. We know what it was. Why did you organize it? I thought you kept away from police measures. places which frequently were raided and attacked by the resistance movement.
Q I see what you mean. This was an organization to protect the recruiting that was going on; is that right? 016-PS, which was dated April 20, 1944, was the labor mobilization program? That is the program which you issued and signed, is it not? You look at it. That is the program you signed?
Q It is not? I do not know what you mean.
A I have not understood you correctly. I understood 1944.
Q No, no. OnApril 20, 1942.
Q You issued the labor mobilization program. Is that the program signed by you shown in the exhibit 016-PS? That is the program, is it not?
A The program -- May I say the following in connection with that: That was a program which --
Q Defendant, please answer the question. All I want to know is, first, you did issue a mobilization program, did you not?
Q And that is the one shown in that exhibit, is it not? I am simply identifying it.
Q All right. I wanted to ask you a little bit about bringing the youths of the occupied territories into the Reich. Certain of the youths were brought in, were they not?
Q Against your desires, you said. How many were brought in?
A That I cannot possibly sa* from my own knowledge. I do not know. There were adolescents.
Q What were the ages? How young were they? there were some who on the basis of measures taken with regard to refugees or the evacuation of other localities came with their families. Then the second time, on the basis of the so-called Heu Action, 1944, youths came to the Reich, but without my having anything to do with it. children, do you not? You know that, do you not?
Q What was the purpose of bringing them in? Were they recruited for labor, or were they to be trained in the Reich and educated. youths have been brought into the Reich. A part of these youths were not recruited or brought in by agents, but in the carrying out of measures for evacuation, they came with their families, and the -
Q Wait a minute. We will leave out the ones that came with the families. Some were recruited for labor, were they not -- some for work, were they not? is under 14 years -- could not be brought in. By agreements, such as can be found and have been submitted in the documents, other offices brought them in for education, care and comfort.
Q You just don't answer the questions. I asked you whether some were brought in for work; children over 14 who were still under 20 were brought in for work, were they not -- recruited for work?
A Yes. Only volunteers were brought.
Q Only volunteers were brought in?
Q You did not recruit any youth involuntarily; you mean that?
A I didn't.
Q I do not mean you personally; I mean the administration. especially girls, involuntarily. Only voluntarily. Domestic servants, for instance, were only volunteers. citizens, were they not?
BY THE PRESIDENT: law to force people in occupied countries to come to Germany to work? it was described to me as admissible. There was no place where objections were raised against these measures, but it was quite according to the demands of all offices.
Q I did not ask you that. I asked you whether anybody advised you that it was in accordance with international law. matters? and that was considered correct on the basis of the conception that, with the surrender of these territories, the institution of German regulations, under the circumstances, was admissble, and also under the existing treaties. That was my conviction. entitled, under international law, to force people to come from Russia to work in Germany? Foreign Office was not competent for the questions in the East, I believe, I don't know.
Q Whom did you ask for advice on the subject?
A The decrees were found by me when I came into my office. These decrees had already been issued, and I was charged with them by the Fuehrer, also, explicitly.
Q Then, the answer is that you asked nobody? Is that right?
A I did not ask anybody. I could not ask anybody because all officers wanted these measures and accepted them. There was never a discussion to the contrary. recruiting for labor? reported in document 1292-PS, that you would do everything in your power to furnish the requested manpower in 1944, but whether it would succeed depended primarily on what German enforcement a ents would be made available and that your project could not be carried out with domestic enforcement agents? Does that not mean that the police would have to enforce your recruitment programs? meeting was not very exact -- I have complained to the Fuehrer that I will probably not be able to carry out his program because there were larte partisan areas, and as long as these partisan areas were not cleared in such a way that a regular administration could be established there, then, also, no recruitment could take place there. Therefore, at first, normal administrative conditions had to be re-established and that could only be done by those organs whose task it was.
Q What did you mean by German enforcement agents? but in some territories that was too week. enforcement agents put at his disposal re extremely few, if those enforcement agents were not police agents? I believe, expressed, according to my recollection - - the thought that for the pacification of these areas he did not have enough troops because they were all out at the front, That did not refer to the recruitment and administration, but to the re-establishment of normal conditions in that area.
Q Well then, are you saying that it was not the task of the police to help you in recruitment, but that it was the task of the military ? quite different in application.
There were areas in which the army commanders had the sole executive powers, and there were areas in which the civil administration had the executive power on the German side. There was a third kind of area, the zones of military operations, the rear areas, in which the supreme commanders of the army had the executive power. tary, or it was some other force which was going to carry out your forcible recruiting, is that right ? administration Was available, which was not identical with the military or the police, but these armed forces organizations dealt with the special branches of the administration under a special head of that branch.
Q Well, I don' t understand then what you meant by saying that your project could not be carried out with domestic enforcement agents.
THE PRESIDENT : That is all I have to ask. The defendant can return to the dock.
THE PRESIDENT : Yes, Dr. Servatius. Go on.
DR.SERVATIUS : Mr. President, referring to Document 3, there is a list of the office of Sauckel which explains the position of the witness whom a am about to call. departments, one the department of the witness Timm, the socalled Europe Office, Europa Amt, which again had three sub-departments, one for the West, one for the East, and the third for the South and Southeast.
MAX TIMM :a witness, took the stand and testified as follows :
BY THE PRESIDENT :
Q Will you repeat this oath after me : the pure truth and will withhold and add nothing.
( The witness repeated the oath.)
THE PRESIDENT : You may sit down.
BY DR. SERVATIUS: ment Commitment of Manpower.
Q Were you already there when Sauckel took office ? Sauckel took over the office ? energetic, hard-working man, who was inclined to get exited at times, and who demanded much of his assistants, but also made great demands of himself.
Q How was he in carrying out his measures ? there was a good deal of confusion. Everybody dealt with commitment of manpower.
Q Was that the reason why that office had been created ? against vorious offices, and Sauckel was the strong man, and particularly the strong political figure,who could keep things in order.
Q How did Sauckel start this work ? Did he adhere to the regulations of the administration , or did he do it in his own way, in a new manner ? to do his best to do administrative things in an orderly way. He was generally known as one Gauleiter who favored the workers.
