Year Plan that the general decisions about the utilization of manpower were taken by the majority of people who Were present or represented?
A In the Central Planning Board no general decisions were made. The demands were Voiced there and since there was always a dispute the higher levels had to decide. That clearing had to be taken care of with the Fuehrer and that happened frequently. tion between itself and the people who were present or represented, is that not so? discussed before the formation of this board. The question had been discussed, the demands had been set up and had been discussed.
Q Will you please take document R-124. It has already been handed to the Tribunal under number U.S.A. 179. You will see therein a declaration which you made at the meeting of the 1st of March 1944.
(witness handed document)
I read:
"My duty towards the Fuehrer" -
A Will you please tell me the page from which you are reading?
Q Page 1780. The place is no doubt marked.
"My duty towards the Fuehrer, the Reichsmarshal and minister Speer I shall fulfill. A first step his been taken. Already 262,000 workers have arrive, and I hope and I am convinced that I shall obtain most of what has been asked. We will have to decide in which manner the work will have to be distributed according to the needs of the German industry and I shall always be disposed to remain in connection with you gentlemen to in the prosecution of manpower and to assist you. This collaboration will go w* Therefore, you do not contest the fact that the Central Office of the Pla* did establish the collaboration amongst the various ministries who produced ma* power because you asked for this collaboration.
A I did not dispute a collaboration. Collaboration is present in every regime and in every system and it is necessary. We were not concerned with foreign labor but chiefly with German labor at that period of time. I did not di pute the fact that work was being carried on but final decisions were not always made there.
German industry? I had liaison emn or the administrative agencies had them with me also. Minister for Armaments and Munitions? dealt with the current questions of demand and Mr. Berk was his name. He discus sed these questions with the Minister.
Q And with the Reich Labor Ministry, did you have a lia ison agent?
A The Reich Labor Ministry, no I had no liaison men there. There were two branches in the Reich Labor Ministry which concerned themselves with these problems in an administrative capacity.
as follows:
M. HERZOG: The Tribunal will find it on pages 6 and 7 of the interrogation that I havd handed to you.
(witness handed document) BY M. HERZOG:
Q "I had moreover two liaison agents with Minister Speer and the armaments industry.
"Question: Did this liaison agent establish a connection between your ministry and Minister Speer and of the Labor Ministry?
"Answer: Between my ministry and the Labor Ministry".
A Will you please tell me the page?
Q Pages 4 and 5. Have you found it?
Q "Between my ministry and Minister Speer and the Labor Ministry."
THE PRESIDENT: That is page 6, is it not? You said pages 4 and 5. It is page 6, is it not?
M. HERZOG: Of the German extract, my Lord.
THE PRESIDENT: Very well. BY M. HERZOG:
Q "Between myself and Minister Speer and the Labor Ministry there were two counselors. They were exports of national economy. Dr. Stothfang was particularly charged with the liaison with the Labor Ministry." agent with the Minister for Labor? in the Labor Ministry and that Dr. Stothfang, this Ministerial Director, was in the beginning, the personal expert to State Secretary Syrup and in very few isolated cases he had conferences. He carried on these conferences at my request but these were insignificant. In general, through these departments, there was some connection with the Ministry.
Q You confirm then, that you had a liaison agent at the Labor Ministry and another one in Minister Speer's office.
gentlemen were in these departments and they were with me as my personal experts. They were not in the other ministry, in the Labor Ministry and I cannot say either whether in this case the translation is exact. I do not remember exactly but in principle and in general it is correct. rather than the Labor Ministry.
Q And will you please tell the Tribunal what was the "Stabsbesprechung"?
A "Stabsbesprechung" was a conference of experts on special matters in which the various ministries who demanded workers participated and at this conference these questions which had to be considered were discussed. It was a staff conference. I could not act independently, of course, as you know.
"Stabsbesprechung", staff conference? Who took the initiative in instituting it? clarification of these problems could be brought about because nothing can ever be brought about in a vacuum. In no regime or government in the world can that be done. common responsibility as to decisions taken by each one of you in the matter of manpower? for I could not do anything with the workers. I had to give them to other people and I had to discuss this problem but in the sense of a conspiracy or of a criminal act these conferences did not take place. These were conferences as had taken place under parliamentary systems and under a parliamentary system we had these same conferences.
Q That is not what I was asking you. I was asking you whether you had confirmed that the existence of these liaison agents to Minister Speer and the Labor Minister on the one hand and the existence of this new organism that you created on the other hand, whether these circumstances implied a common responsibility in the decisions as regards manpower to be taken by Minister Speer, Minister for Labor and by yourself? put to me and as a German official I had to comply and in order to comply with them I had to hold confe rences. It was not possible for me otherwise for I personally did not demand these workers but the German economy demanded these workers and this matter had to be settled regardless of whether German or other workers were concerned and the same situation applied in normal times. authorized to get your representatives into the military and civil departments in the military occupied areas by special appointees?
at the behest of the Fuehrer appointees were appointed by me for the occupied countries and I mentioned this yesterday to my counsel.
Q You said on the 30th of October. I believe it is the ordinance of the 30th of September to which you refer.
directly subordinate to you? to me along those lines. civilian and military authorities of occupied terrotiries? but it is not true generally.
Q Who was your delegate with occupation authorities in France? of all, President Ritter; he was murdered in Paris. And after him, President Glatzel.
Q Did you have a nominee in Belgium?
A In Belgium I had a nominee by the name of Schulze; he was with the military authorities there.
Q And in Holland?
A In Holland there were various mon; first of all, Mr. Scmidt, and there was another man. I believe his name was Ritterbusch or something like that; but I don't recall the exact name. was that approved of by Defendant Speer? agreed. I believe he did, also, suggest it as far as I know. by the Fuehrer concerning this matter?
A Yes. I was present and I recommended it. for manpower in 1941 or 19-12. What do you think of that phrase? "Question: Was the mission entrusted with your representatives in the Labor Offices of the Military Governor, the Civil Governor, or were they simply councillors whose counsel could be rejected by the Commanders or did they have authority to give directives to the military authorities on those questions?"
M. HERZOG: Page 9, Mr. President. BY M. HERZOG:
Q "Answer: In 1941 or '42 Speer instituted representatives for manpower." I would ask you what you think is the meaning of that phrase when you said that in 1941 or 1942 Speer instituted representatives for manpower? minutes after I had been interrogated. I cannot confirm this as to 1941-42 and I cannot imagine that I expressed myself that way during the interrogation.
Q The Tribunal will weigh your answer. Is it correct that besides the delegates that represented you in the various ministries you had installed administrative offices for manpower in the occupied territories?
A That is not correct. They had already been there. you there were recruiting agencies for manpower in the occupied territories?
A Yes. In the occupied territories, with all regional authorities, either civilian or military, there were departments dealing with manpower which were a part of the administrative setup, and they were subordinate to the administration authorities. various branches and services in the occupied areas?
A Do you mean the entire figure? As far as individual and detailed figures are concerned in administration, that I cannot tell you from my recollection and I never even did know those figures exactly. of July, 1944, in the presence of the labor organizations in the various European territories, on the 13th of July, 1944, in the afternoon, State Counsellor Boerger gave an account of the personnel employed.
M. HERZOG: I will hand that to the Tribunal under the number of 1507. BY MR. HERZOG:
Q I will read on Page 20. "Counsellor of State Boerger. Outside of the frontiers of the Reich in the administration of manpower there are 4,000 people; eastern area, 1300; France, 1016; Belgium and Northern France, 429; Netherlands, 194." Do you confirm this confirmation of Counsellor of State Boerger? were talking of, did you not create, in France, commissions composed of specialists who were entrusted with the organization of the employment of manpower on a German pattern? ----- Would you please answer?
A I didn't quite understand the question. Please repeat it.
Q I shall repeat it. Outside of your representatives, apart from the services that we have been talking of, did you not create, in France particularly, commissions composed of specialists who were entrusted with organizing the recruiting and the employment of manpower following the German pattern? with French units for recruiting manpower.
Q That is now it. I am talking to youof commissions for the purpose of combing the manpower supply. Do you not remember, in order to insure the recruiting of manpower in France, that you thought of the system of attaching two French departments to a German Gau?
That was in agreement with the French government and these groups were instituted between one German Gau and one French department. They had the task, as far as the workers who were to come to Germany, of telling them about conditions in Germany and were to have conversations with the departments in France about possibilities and to put down statistics.
M. HERZOG: I hand to the Tribunal 1293 PS, which becomse French document RF-1508. BY M. HERZOG:
Q. It is a letter bearing your signature, dated Berlin, 13 August, 1943, of which I shall read extracts.
M. HERZOG: The Tribunal will find it in the document book which I handed to them at the beginning of this session. BY M. HERZOG:
Q. To begin, I read the last paragraph on Page 1.
THE PRESIDENT: I am afraid I haven't got it.
M. HERZOG: Mr. President, the documents with figures in my document book were handed to the Tribunal this morning -- unless I am making a mistake, for which I apologize in advance -- in the order in which I intend to use them. I did that in the event of my using them several times, so that the Tribunal could find them more easily. May I now begin to read?
THE PRESIDENT: I am sorry but the documents hadn't been handed up to me, that is all. None of them had been handed up. BY M. HERZOG:
Q. am reading at the bottom of Page 1: "The application of the two points of the manpower system demand a stronger and a better organization of German manpower and especially as regards the procurement of the necessary personnel. This will be done by a system of adoption by German provinces. France has got about 80 departments. Greater Germany is divided into Gaus and for the procurement of manpower it is divided into 42 districts. Each district will take over and adopt about two French departments. Each German district will furnish for these departments a commission of specialists, of the ablest experts. These commissions will organize the levy of manpower in these departments according to the German practice."
I resume reading at the bottom of Page 2 of the French text. That is Page 3 of the German translation: "There is no doubt about their projected adoption by German Gaus for the production of manpower in Germany and especi* for the necessary transformation in the interest of Germany interests of French manpower for the armaments industries in France. This system will h* enormous advantages."
I am passing to the bottom of Page 3 of the French text. I am reading small "d2 "The Central German manpower service in Paris is the representative of Plenipotentiary and his office." in the occupied territories was not under the direction of you as a plenipotentiary but depended on the local authorities. How do you explain this phrase?
A. It can be explained very simply. These men were subordinate to the military commander or chief in the depqrtment. They were sent over by Germany and they were taken from the German Labor Offices and were taken in the administration there.
Q. You say that the Central Labor Service in Paris, that is the representative of the Plenipotentiary and his assistants. The representative of the Labor Service in Paris was therefore your representative?
A The German Labor Board in Paris was a part of thecivilian administration of the military commander-in-chief of France.
This is not expressed in the sentence, for I took it for granted that the Gauleiters knew about this; and the picture as I set it down is entirely correct.
"The Central German Service in Paris" -- that is, the representative of the plenipotentiary and his office -
A (Interposing) Monsieur Herzog -
Q (Interposing) Please allow me to finish.
"They will have, therefore, 12 French organizations to give a good understanding of the French problem, in spite of essential pacificism and resistance which is even certain of French Bureaucracy at all its levels. Therefore, I have entrusted the president and the managers of newly formed Gau authorities to create a newly formed organization in departments attached to them; and I request you in accordance with the wishes of Comrade Bormann to give a favorable receiption to the new mission that has been entrusted to your Gau." subordinate French manpower to German manpower in Germany?
A. Yes. But I should like to ask you and to ask the High Tribunal to be permitted to say and read the following for clarification purposes. On the first page in paragraph 1-- and I am starting to cite fromthe third line -- it says, "Under complete agreement with the Fuehrer, I am in agreement with the French government chief, in France" -- and this is the decisive point -- "and the competent German authorities -- that is, the military commander-in-chief with whom this plenipotentiary had been working add to whom he was subordinate -"that extensive measures would be taken."
And on Page 4, I should like to read, "The special purpose for this adoption system was not to be unfriendliness" -- I am reading from Page 4 inthe German text, under the letter "A" -- "prejudice, suspicion, or lack of care, but the stopping and taking care of complaints" -- that is, complaints by the workers -- "which are working to the detriment of German manpower, through the relations between the adopted Gau and the adopted department.
All of these things can be stopped."
Now I am reading under Point B: "Each French worker in such a department knows exactly where and under what conditions he will have to work in Germany. He will be told about the locality in which he will have to work through German propaganda and enlistment material. He will be informed about all matters which are of interest to him. And that was the purpose of that arrangement. of the French workers.
Q Please answer my question with "yes" or "no". This arrangement was to bring about that questions which had not been settled between the French Departments and industries on the one hand, and the authorities in Germany under which French workers were to be used, were to be cleared and settled. That was the actual purpose, to clear the situation and to solve problems.
THE PRESIDENT: We will adjourn now.
(a recess was taken) BY M. HERZOG: beneath your control all the organizations of the Central Office of the 4-Year Plan which were concerned with the recruiting of labor? do with laborwere dissolved. Only Departments 5 and 6 of the Labor Ministry continued to deal with these matters. labor were transferred to you, and that as a result of this transfer, powers concerning regularization and regulative powers were also trans ferred? with my own task. The remaining functions of the Ministry of Labor remained entirely on its own, under theReichminister for Labor.
Q But within the cabinet you exerted the powers of a minister of the Reich, before the transfer; that is to say, as plenipotentiary for labor?
A Within the work of my department, as GBA. But I must emphasize that these departments were not under my jurisdiction; they were at my disposal. And that difference was very strongly noted at the time. It applied to the whole Ministry of Labor. trative autonomy in matters concerning labor?
A Not an autonomy, but only based on elections. In the case o f all decrees, I could not issue decrees everywhere, butcould only give instructions; and it was necessary to have the agreement of other administrative bodies and Reichsministries, and, of course, the fellow's agreement.
Q Did you not have from the Fuehrer carte blanche (full power) for the recruiting and the utilization of labor? steering and directing. If I may say so, it was never the case of the agent for labor and that is, of course, organization of labor, who employed these workers himself -- the firms employed the workers.
Q For the recruiting of labor you had full powers; isn't that true? ment of the officials concerned had been obtained. I myself didn't recruit laborers in France without the express agreement of the French government or their officials and collaborators. The French administration was included in such a case. agreements and obligations which were assumed in France by those whom you call, yourself, "the leaders of collaboration." You know better than any other that these leaders of collaboration, imposed upon France by the enemy, only engaged themselves and obligated themselves and that their acts were never ratified by the French people as an entity. Besides, these leaders of collaboration, whose testimony cannot be suspect to you, have revealed themselves pressure which was exerted upon them and we will discuss that now. Is it true that on the 16th of April 1942, that is to say, one month after your nomination, you stated in a letter to the defendant Rosenberg which states your program and which was presented to you today -- you included in this letter, the recruiting of foreign laborers in your program of the utilization of labor?
A I resent the expression "exploitation." By strictest orders by the Fuehrer, recruitment of foreign workers, that is true, had to be included in my program. in your program, 16 April 1942; you admitted this yesterday, and I ask you to confirm it.
A Yes, it is true. I only emphasize that I did it by the strictest orders from the Fuehrer.
Q Is it exact that this program of 16 April 1942; that is to say, three weeks after your nomination, you also included already the principle of forced recruiting?
recruitment didn't suffice. I said that yesterday.
Q Yes, you confirmed it. Do you remember the announcement that you made on the 29th of August 1942 -- this decree fixed by priority the utilization of labor in occupied territories; decree No.6 of the 22nd of August of the General Plenipotentiary for the utilization of labor. It was handed to the Tribunal as RS-17(?). Do you remember it? underneath the German administration?
AAs far as I can remember -- and I can't at the moment remember the exact wording of every paragraph of that decree -- there was an arrangement for the regulation of working conditions regarding those people who were taken in by German firms. The purpose was to prevent a muddle.
Q Is it exact that you went on a mission to Paris in August 1942? dates.
Q Is it exact that you went on a mission to Paris in January 1943?
Q Is it exact that you went on a mission to Paris in January 1944?
AAlso probable, yes, but I don't know the individual dates. the French de facto authorities, had published the legislative decrees of September 4, 1942, of 16 February 1943, and of 1 February 1944; isn't that true?
A I didn't understand your question exactly. authorities published the three big laws on forced labor of September 4, 1942, 16 February 1943, and February 1, 1944, that you went on missions to Paris in France?
with the French government, and I want to say to that, that for me and in accordance -
Q No, you will explain later. Do you recognize that in the course of these missions, you imposed on the French authorities the laws on forced labor?
A That isn't correct in that way. drafted under pressure from you?
A I deny that the word "pressure" is applicable. I negotiated properly with the French before such decrees and laws were published and I resent the word "pressure"; and there were witnesses during these negotiations. Speer had with you from the Fuehrer's headquarters on January 4 1943?
A Well, very probably. I have had several discussions with Speer and I don't know which particular one you are referring to. of this telephone conversation of January 4, 1943?
A Quite probably. I had several notes put to my files which might have dealt with these telephone conversations I had. to the Tribunal under the No. USA 194 and RS-62. I read that document or at least its first paragraph: "January 4, 1943. At eight o'clock in the evening, Minister Speer telephoned from the headquarters of the Fuehrer in order to inform that according to a decision of the Fuehrer, it is not necessary in the future, when specialists are employed for auxiliaries in France, to have any special respect for the French. One can also in that country use pressure or employ more severe measures in order to procure labor." I ask you, defendant, what you mean when you say that it is not necessary to have any special respect for the French?
A This note or rather this decision wasn't arrived at by me. This was information which came from the Fuehrer's headquarters, based on a decision made by the Fuehrer. In spite of that -- and I want to emphasize that particularly -- my attitude towards the French government did not change and it doesn't say so in this document either; just as before, I adhered to the same polite principle with which I used for these negotiations and I beg the Tribunal to ascertain, by means of a short statement, how these negotiations for the French government were conducted.
Q You will give it later in your interrogation. Do you remember the discussion that you had on the 12th of January 1943, at the German Embassy in Paris,with the French authorities? German Embassy in Paris.
Q That is exactly what I am asking you. Do you remember this conversation that you had with the French authorities on the 12th of January 1943?
Q Do you remember the persons who took part in this conversation?
A Yes; usually the French Prime Minister, Minister Bichelenne used to participate in such negotiations and on the German side, the Ambassador and on behalf of the military commander, Dr. Fischer, and Dr.Hildebrandt coming from me or some such official.
Q. And you do not remember what Laval said to you at this meeting of the 12th January?
A. Very many matters were discussed in great detail during such conferences, and I don't know what you mean. Q. Well, I will submit to you the minutes of this meeting. It is Document 809, which I submit to the Tribunal under the number RF-1509. more exactly, several declarations. THE PRESIDENT: Where shall we find them? M. HERZOG: It is in my document book, Mr. President. THE PRESIDENT: Oh yes, I have got it. M. HERZOG: It must be marked with a slip 809. BY M. HERZOG: Q. First, I read page 7 of the French text and of the German text:
"Gauleiter Saukel demands again 250,000 new workers. Gaulieter Saukel knows very well, and his offices have certainly informed him on this fact, the difficulties which the French Government faces and has assured in order to achieve the program. The Gaulieter must realize that as a result of the number of prisoners and workers who are already employed by Germany, the sending of another 250,000 workers will increase even further the difficulties of the French Government. I cannot conceal these difficulties from the Gaulieter because they are evident, and the Germans who are in Paris know these difficulties.
"The Gaulieter answers to me that they have had to overcome the same difficulties in Germany, and French industry must face them too now. It seems to me that I can remind him that Germany not only demands workers of France, but also is beginning to take away the machines from factories in order to transport them to Germany. France has nothing left. She still had, until now, the means of production. If these, too, are taken from her, France loses even the possibility of working.
"I do everything in order to facilitate the German victory, and you see that Laval could not be suspect to you, but I must also admit that German policy imposes upon me nearly every day heavier exactions, without these being able to be included within definite policy.
"Gaulieter Saukel can tell the German workers that they must work for Germany.
I cannot say that Frenchman are working for France. I see that in many fields the French Government cannot act.
One would almost believe that on the German side they attach no value to the good will of Frenchman, and that they are incluned to Institute in all of France a German administration. Mu task is being made more difficult every day. It is true that I do not allow myself to be discouraged, but I esteem, however, that it is my duty to remind the Gaulieter of the gravity of France-German relations, and of the impossibility of continuing along this path. It is no longer a matter of a policy of collaboration, but, on the French side, a policy of sacrifice, and on the German side, a policy of constraint."
I pass to the next, page, page 11:
"The present state of mind in France, the uncertainty concerning the means which the French Government possesses, the half-freedom in which it finds itself, all these do not give me the necessary authority to supply to Gaulieter Saukel an immediate reply. We can do nothing. We are not free to change salaries; we are not free to combat the black market; we can take no political measures without everywhere coming up against a German authority which has substituted itself for ourselves.
"I cannot guarantee measures which I have not taken. I am persuaded that the Fuehrer does not know that the French Government cannot act. There cannot be, in one country, two governments on questions which do not concern directly the security of the occupation forces".
I skip two more pages, to page 18, and I read only this sentence:
"It is not possible for me to have only power of attorney for the German measures of constraint". you two questions concerning it.
The first question is: What did you answer to the President Laval when he made this declaration to you?
The second one is: Do you not think that there is there the proof of the pressure which you contest?
A. First of all, if the Tribunal would permit it, I should have to read my reply to President Laval. But then, it has been proved, and this has been confirmed to me by President Laval, that I did not negotiate directly with him always, and in spite of the fact that I had orders not to conduct political conversations, but only to deal with my actual task, I did always report to the Fuehrer about these matters.