I did not consider the principle of the "Master Race" to be good. Hitler, and youdid not coloaborate therewith? considered myself to be one to formulate the foreign policy. to two American officers?
M. HERZOG: This declaration is PS-3057. It was submitted as USA 223. BY M. HERZOG:
Q You said therein as follows:
"(1) I was a convinced National Socialist in about 1921 and adhered 100 per cent to the program of Adolf Hitler. I was actively working in that sense, and during the period from 1921 until the assumption of power in 1933 I made about 500 speeches, the sense and content of whichrepresented the National Socialist philosophy. It was forme a particular satisfaction to have elevated the Gau of Thuringia to a predominant position, and thereafter, especially as regards its National Socialist aspirations, there was no doubt in my mind, and I never questioned commands by Hitler. Until the crash came, I obeyed his orders blindly."
THE PRESIDENT: You are going a little bit too fast. Thias has been read, M. Herzog. I do not think you need read all of it. BY M. HERZOG: declarations which were made under oath and voluntarily and without any duress on the 4 September 1945 and which are in contradiction with these that you made yesterday and which you have just made to me.
A I confirm that my signature is appended to this document. I ask the High Tribunal's permission to tell how the signature came about.
This document was presented to me in its finished form. I asked that I might read and study this document in my cell and decide whether I could actually sign it. I was denied this privilege. During the conversation-and an officer was called in. This officer told me that he belonged to the Polish or Russian army, and he told me that if I hesitated too long in signing this document, I would be given to theRussian authorities.
Then this Polish or Russian officer entered and asked where Sauckel's family was. "His family will have to be taken into Russian territory as well." I am the father of ten children. I did not think about this matter, but, with consideration for my family, I signed this document. I wanted to talk with him alone on this matter, but this was not possible, for shortly thereafter I was brought to Numbers. that you "made the above declarations voluntarily and without any duress"?
THE PRESIDENT: Will you ask him whether he had read it now and whether it is true. BY M. HERZOG:
Q I asked you a few moments ago, and I ask you now: Are you ready to confirm whether your statements are correct? dividual points, and I asked that I might correct these various points, but I did not receive the time to do that. could discuss this matter in Nurnberg, and when I was interrogated here I told the American officer about that matter.
THE PRESIDENT: M. Herzog, was this document read over in the Tribunal during the prosecution?
M HERZOG: This document was submitted under USA 223.
DR. SERVATIUS (Counsel for the defendant Sauckel): Mr. President, as far as I recall, this document was not submitted. At that time I had a conversation with the American representative of the Prosecution and told him about these objections. He did not mention this at a later session, and the President himself, at the conclusion of this, asked whether this document would not be produced and the prosecutor said, "No, on the basis of a conference with the defense, we will dispense with this document."
THE PRESIDENT: Well, you tell us that it wasn't read over in court.
DR. SERVATIUS: No, it wasn't read in court. I would like to object to the admissibility of this document, for it was given under duress.
THE PRESIDENT: Under these circumstances, M. Herzog, you may cross examine in what way you like upon the document. The Tribunal was under the impression that it had already been read over That is why they stopped you reading it. BY M. HERZOG:
Q In paragraph 2 you declared:
"After the putting into effect of the Nurnberg Laws, I took necessary measures for carrying out those laws in the Gau of Thuringia.
Paragraph 4:
"As regards foreign policy, I felt that the German people had a right to Lebensraum in Europe and they should take a preeminent place in Europe on account of their racial superiority. I agreed with all the decisions taken by Hitler and the NSDAP concerning the means to be used and the measures to be taken to obtain these ends, and I collaborated actively in the execution of this plan."
Q I will read it once more:
"I agreed with all the decisions taken by Hitler and the NSDAP concerning the means to be used and the measures to be taken to obtain these ends, and I collaborated actively in the execution of this plan." way if I had had my own will and if I had been able to act freely.
THE PRESIDENT (Interposing); M. Herzog, the Tribunal thinks that the document is before the witness and he should be asked to point out in what way he considers the document wrong. BY M. HERZOG: You say that this document does not coincide with the truth. Will you kindly tell the Tribunal in what way it does not.
A I should like to take this document point by point. I was 100 per cent for the social program, the program of Adolf Hitler for the German people's community. I agreed with that and I told attorney that.
THE PRESIDENT: Defendant, what the Tribunal wishes is that you should take the document and point out, sentence by sentence, what is wrong in it.
THE WITNESS: In paragraph 1, the year 1921 is incorrect I became a member, as my first membership card shows, in the year 1923 and 1925.
Before the year 1923, I had no connection with the Party. stand the "100 per cent" in this way, that the program was justified according to the constitution, according to humanity, and according to ethics and morality, as it appeared to me. say. My speeches and lectures, in the main, were based on my life and on my experiences. Those were the only things that I could talk about, and I wanted to bring about a coordination and a balance between the German professions.
THE PRESIDENT: Defendant, I have pointed out to you that what the Tribunal desires is for you to take the document and say what sentences in it are wrong, and not to make speeches.
THE WITNESS: In my eyes, all of the sentences are wrong. I would not have put them that way. All the sentences, as they stated are not correct, and they do not read the way they would have read if I had said them myself. The way they stand, I dispute each and every sentence, for I did not write them and I was not consulted. These sentences were shown to me as they are now.
DR. SERVATIUS: Mr. President, if I may be permitted to give an explanation of this matter, this statement is a resume of the entire number of interrogations in which the various points represent a confession in the sense of the Indictment. The defendant would not have to say a word in his own defense if this were correct. Since it is a resume, and since conclusions can be drawn from it, he will have to have the opportunity to refute the conclusions and that necessitates a speech. These are not certain facts which can be answered with yes or no.
THE PRESIDENT: The defendant has just said that the whole document is wrong, and he has also said that the document was obtained from him under duress.
DR. SERVATIUS: Yes.
THE PRESIDENT: And it is therefore not any use to go through it in detail. But the Tribunal would like to hear from the American Prosecution if they have anything to say about the matter.
MR. DODD: I do not have a copy of the document before me in English, but I -
THE PRESIDENT (Interposing): You see, Mr. Dodd, M. Herzog has said that it was offered in evidence under the exhibit number US 223.
MR. DODD: My recollection is -- I will check the record Mr. President -- that in the presentation of the case on slave labor, we included this in our document book but did not offer it in evidence. I think I said to the Tribunal at the time that we had decided not to offer it. It had been printed up and put in the document book. President, that the President of the Tribunal asked me if I did not intend to offer it, and I then stated that we had thought it over and decided not to use it.
THE PRESIDENT: I don't understand how it gets an exhibit number if it isn't offered in evidence.
MR. DODD: I don't either. I think it is an error.
THE PRESIDENT: I see. Mr. Dodd, do you know whether this is a resume or a summary of a number of interrogations which were taken?
MR. DODD: My understanding is to the contrary. I thin it was taken before the defendant Sauckel was in Nurnberg and before any interrogations were conducted on the part of the Interrogation Division of the American Prosecution.
THE PRESIDENT: Were you aware that Dr. Sevatius was objecting to the document on the ground that it was obtained under duress?
MR. DODD: My recollection is that at the time of the presentation of the Slave Labor case Dr. Servatius made some objection and I think that is what pointed the matter up at the time; and that is why we did not use it.
THE PRESIDENT: Very well. Then you had better pass from it. the 21st of March, 1942? Keitel?
A The decree, I believe, was countersigned three times. I believe that's right At this moment I cannot confirm it with surety, but believe so. Q Would you kindly explain to the Tribunal under what circumstances you were appointed to that office?
A I answered that question when it was put to me by my Counsel yesterday. It was a surprise to me. appointment?
A I cannot tell you that from my own knowledge. I believe it was a suggestion by Bormann, but I cannot tell you this from my own knowledge. interrogation in September, 1945? during which you appear to have state the following -- the Tribunal will find this on the first page in the extracts of the iterrogatory, which has been handed them.
"In March, 1942, I was summoned rather suddenly by Minister Speer who had been appointed a short while previously. Speer told me that it was urgent that I should assume" -
(A short interruption.)
(Resuming) "--Speer told me that it was urgent that I shoud assume new function concerning the matter of manpower. A few days later he asked me to go with him to the General Headquarters and I was introduced to the presence of the Fuehrer, who told me that I shoud at any price accept this appointment which was offered to me."
Do you confirm that statement?
A It is correct. However, I cannot say whether that was before a decision whether my appointment came through the initiative of some other gentlemen; but except for that, the picture is correct. and Munitions, to the Fuehrer Headquarters on the occasion of your appointment. your services and showing how it was connected to the other organizations of the Reich. You have declared that this plan was correct. I would ask you to confirm by saying yes or no, if you think that this chart is correct.
Q Have you that chart in front of you?
A No, I don't have it. the different -
THE PRESIDENT: Which number chart is it?
M. HERZOG: It is chart No. 1, indicating how Sauckel's department dove-tailed with the other ministerial services. there is the name of the Defendant Funk? Have you found it? inspectors? Is that a correct description of the employment of armaments inspectors under the Defendant Funk?
A Under Funk? Which department do you mean, which division?
A No, that is not quite correct here. It should be moved up a little bit to the side. It is corrected with Speer later. Highway inspection and construction, matter like those do not belong under Funk. That is a mistake, putting them under Funk's direction. to the direction of the Autobahnen Services the General Commission for Studies and Labor?
. Should it be connected to the Reichsautobalnen?
Q Should it not be to the one above, Inspector of armaments?
A Yes; I cannot understand how this mistake could happen. I did not see this diagram before this. This is the first time I have seen it. I didn't know. that so? ted. Mr. President, yesterday when I presented it, this chart, I mentioned that there might be a few discrepancies. These discrepancies came in when it was being mimeographed. But I did not see the final -
(Dr. Servatius came to the lecturn and microphone.)
THE PRESIDENT: Dr. Servatius, these questions may give rise to further questions from you on re-examination, but there is no ground for objection to them; they are perfectly proper. Four Year Plan. or represented you at such conferences?
A That varied -- Dr. Timm, Dr. Hildebrandt, Dr. Stothfang, But it varied. conferences? Can you tell us?
A I recall with certainty only Mr. Speer, who participated in these conferences That is, of the Defendants who are here. Whether Mr.Funk actually participated to the best of my knowledge I cannot recall.
He may and he may not. I am sorry I can't say.
Q And the defendant Goering? Reichsmarshal but I do not know whether certain conferences which took place with him were carried on in line with this Central Planning Board. There were some conferences in which he participated. Some of these took place at Karinhall, when that was under the name and in the case of Central Planning. But I don't know; it wasn't always clear.
these meetings were they not represented, there? Minister Funk was represented I cannot tell you today from my exact memory. He might have been represented by Mr. Kerl or someone or other. There were many gentlemen but I did not know all of them personally.
Year Plan that the general decisions about the utilization of manpower were taken by the majority of people who Were present or represented?
A In the Central Planning Board no general decisions were made. The demands were Voiced there and since there was always a dispute the higher levels had to decide. That clearing had to be taken care of with the Fuehrer and that happened frequently. tion between itself and the people who were present or represented, is that not so? discussed before the formation of this board. The question had been discussed, the demands had been set up and had been discussed.
Q Will you please take document R-124. It has already been handed to the Tribunal under number U.S.A. 179. You will see therein a declaration which you made at the meeting of the 1st of March 1944.
(witness handed document)
I read:
"My duty towards the Fuehrer" -
A Will you please tell me the page from which you are reading?
Q Page 1780. The place is no doubt marked.
"My duty towards the Fuehrer, the Reichsmarshal and minister Speer I shall fulfill. A first step his been taken. Already 262,000 workers have arrive, and I hope and I am convinced that I shall obtain most of what has been asked. We will have to decide in which manner the work will have to be distributed according to the needs of the German industry and I shall always be disposed to remain in connection with you gentlemen to in the prosecution of manpower and to assist you. This collaboration will go w* Therefore, you do not contest the fact that the Central Office of the Pla* did establish the collaboration amongst the various ministries who produced ma* power because you asked for this collaboration.
A I did not dispute a collaboration. Collaboration is present in every regime and in every system and it is necessary. We were not concerned with foreign labor but chiefly with German labor at that period of time. I did not di pute the fact that work was being carried on but final decisions were not always made there.
German industry? I had liaison emn or the administrative agencies had them with me also. Minister for Armaments and Munitions? dealt with the current questions of demand and Mr. Berk was his name. He discus sed these questions with the Minister.
Q And with the Reich Labor Ministry, did you have a lia ison agent?
A The Reich Labor Ministry, no I had no liaison men there. There were two branches in the Reich Labor Ministry which concerned themselves with these problems in an administrative capacity.
as follows:
M. HERZOG: The Tribunal will find it on pages 6 and 7 of the interrogation that I havd handed to you.
(witness handed document) BY M. HERZOG:
Q "I had moreover two liaison agents with Minister Speer and the armaments industry.
"Question: Did this liaison agent establish a connection between your ministry and Minister Speer and of the Labor Ministry?
"Answer: Between my ministry and the Labor Ministry".
A Will you please tell me the page?
Q Pages 4 and 5. Have you found it?
Q "Between my ministry and Minister Speer and the Labor Ministry."
THE PRESIDENT: That is page 6, is it not? You said pages 4 and 5. It is page 6, is it not?
M. HERZOG: Of the German extract, my Lord.
THE PRESIDENT: Very well. BY M. HERZOG:
Q "Between myself and Minister Speer and the Labor Ministry there were two counselors. They were exports of national economy. Dr. Stothfang was particularly charged with the liaison with the Labor Ministry." agent with the Minister for Labor? in the Labor Ministry and that Dr. Stothfang, this Ministerial Director, was in the beginning, the personal expert to State Secretary Syrup and in very few isolated cases he had conferences. He carried on these conferences at my request but these were insignificant. In general, through these departments, there was some connection with the Ministry.
Q You confirm then, that you had a liaison agent at the Labor Ministry and another one in Minister Speer's office.
gentlemen were in these departments and they were with me as my personal experts. They were not in the other ministry, in the Labor Ministry and I cannot say either whether in this case the translation is exact. I do not remember exactly but in principle and in general it is correct. rather than the Labor Ministry.
Q And will you please tell the Tribunal what was the "Stabsbesprechung"?
A "Stabsbesprechung" was a conference of experts on special matters in which the various ministries who demanded workers participated and at this conference these questions which had to be considered were discussed. It was a staff conference. I could not act independently, of course, as you know.
"Stabsbesprechung", staff conference? Who took the initiative in instituting it? clarification of these problems could be brought about because nothing can ever be brought about in a vacuum. In no regime or government in the world can that be done. common responsibility as to decisions taken by each one of you in the matter of manpower? for I could not do anything with the workers. I had to give them to other people and I had to discuss this problem but in the sense of a conspiracy or of a criminal act these conferences did not take place. These were conferences as had taken place under parliamentary systems and under a parliamentary system we had these same conferences.
Q That is not what I was asking you. I was asking you whether you had confirmed that the existence of these liaison agents to Minister Speer and the Labor Minister on the one hand and the existence of this new organism that you created on the other hand, whether these circumstances implied a common responsibility in the decisions as regards manpower to be taken by Minister Speer, Minister for Labor and by yourself? put to me and as a German official I had to comply and in order to comply with them I had to hold confe rences. It was not possible for me otherwise for I personally did not demand these workers but the German economy demanded these workers and this matter had to be settled regardless of whether German or other workers were concerned and the same situation applied in normal times. authorized to get your representatives into the military and civil departments in the military occupied areas by special appointees?
at the behest of the Fuehrer appointees were appointed by me for the occupied countries and I mentioned this yesterday to my counsel.
Q You said on the 30th of October. I believe it is the ordinance of the 30th of September to which you refer.
directly subordinate to you? to me along those lines. civilian and military authorities of occupied terrotiries? but it is not true generally.
Q Who was your delegate with occupation authorities in France? of all, President Ritter; he was murdered in Paris. And after him, President Glatzel.
Q Did you have a nominee in Belgium?
A In Belgium I had a nominee by the name of Schulze; he was with the military authorities there.
Q And in Holland?
A In Holland there were various mon; first of all, Mr. Scmidt, and there was another man. I believe his name was Ritterbusch or something like that; but I don't recall the exact name. was that approved of by Defendant Speer? agreed. I believe he did, also, suggest it as far as I know. by the Fuehrer concerning this matter?
A Yes. I was present and I recommended it. for manpower in 1941 or 19-12. What do you think of that phrase? "Question: Was the mission entrusted with your representatives in the Labor Offices of the Military Governor, the Civil Governor, or were they simply councillors whose counsel could be rejected by the Commanders or did they have authority to give directives to the military authorities on those questions?"
M. HERZOG: Page 9, Mr. President. BY M. HERZOG:
Q "Answer: In 1941 or '42 Speer instituted representatives for manpower." I would ask you what you think is the meaning of that phrase when you said that in 1941 or 1942 Speer instituted representatives for manpower? minutes after I had been interrogated. I cannot confirm this as to 1941-42 and I cannot imagine that I expressed myself that way during the interrogation.
Q The Tribunal will weigh your answer. Is it correct that besides the delegates that represented you in the various ministries you had installed administrative offices for manpower in the occupied territories?
A That is not correct. They had already been there. you there were recruiting agencies for manpower in the occupied territories?
A Yes. In the occupied territories, with all regional authorities, either civilian or military, there were departments dealing with manpower which were a part of the administrative setup, and they were subordinate to the administration authorities. various branches and services in the occupied areas?
A Do you mean the entire figure? As far as individual and detailed figures are concerned in administration, that I cannot tell you from my recollection and I never even did know those figures exactly. of July, 1944, in the presence of the labor organizations in the various European territories, on the 13th of July, 1944, in the afternoon, State Counsellor Boerger gave an account of the personnel employed.
M. HERZOG: I will hand that to the Tribunal under the number of 1507. BY MR. HERZOG:
Q I will read on Page 20. "Counsellor of State Boerger. Outside of the frontiers of the Reich in the administration of manpower there are 4,000 people; eastern area, 1300; France, 1016; Belgium and Northern France, 429; Netherlands, 194." Do you confirm this confirmation of Counsellor of State Boerger? were talking of, did you not create, in France, commissions composed of specialists who were entrusted with the organization of the employment of manpower on a German pattern? ----- Would you please answer?
A I didn't quite understand the question. Please repeat it.
Q I shall repeat it. Outside of your representatives, apart from the services that we have been talking of, did you not create, in France particularly, commissions composed of specialists who were entrusted with organizing the recruiting and the employment of manpower following the German pattern? with French units for recruiting manpower.
Q That is now it. I am talking to youof commissions for the purpose of combing the manpower supply. Do you not remember, in order to insure the recruiting of manpower in France, that you thought of the system of attaching two French departments to a German Gau?
That was in agreement with the French government and these groups were instituted between one German Gau and one French department. They had the task, as far as the workers who were to come to Germany, of telling them about conditions in Germany and were to have conversations with the departments in France about possibilities and to put down statistics.
M. HERZOG: I hand to the Tribunal 1293 PS, which becomse French document RF-1508. BY M. HERZOG:
Q. It is a letter bearing your signature, dated Berlin, 13 August, 1943, of which I shall read extracts.
M. HERZOG: The Tribunal will find it in the document book which I handed to them at the beginning of this session. BY M. HERZOG:
Q. To begin, I read the last paragraph on Page 1.
THE PRESIDENT: I am afraid I haven't got it.
M. HERZOG: Mr. President, the documents with figures in my document book were handed to the Tribunal this morning -- unless I am making a mistake, for which I apologize in advance -- in the order in which I intend to use them. I did that in the event of my using them several times, so that the Tribunal could find them more easily. May I now begin to read?
THE PRESIDENT: I am sorry but the documents hadn't been handed up to me, that is all. None of them had been handed up. BY M. HERZOG:
Q. am reading at the bottom of Page 1: "The application of the two points of the manpower system demand a stronger and a better organization of German manpower and especially as regards the procurement of the necessary personnel. This will be done by a system of adoption by German provinces. France has got about 80 departments. Greater Germany is divided into Gaus and for the procurement of manpower it is divided into 42 districts. Each district will take over and adopt about two French departments. Each German district will furnish for these departments a commission of specialists, of the ablest experts. These commissions will organize the levy of manpower in these departments according to the German practice."