A Yes; here we are concerned with the decree from the Fuehrer for German domestic life, especially in order to alleviate conditions applied to German peasant women. Four hundred to five hundred thousand female workers were to be brought into the Reich from the Eastern Region. I should like to mention, in referring to the minutes, that I did not set down these minutes, neither did my office, but most likely that these minutes were set down on the basis of notes which rather some gentleman took -- four hundred to five hundred thousand female workers to be used in the home ---I should like to remark that they were to be brought into the Reich only on a voluntary basis; in fact, only perhaps thirteen to fifteen thousand---I believe the figure was---came into the Reich. The concept to Germanize, this concept as used here, refers only to the volunteer desire on the part of these people to perhaps later on remain in Germany voluntarily. received? Some things have been mentioned here and it has been said that "if the worker can no longer work, he is no longer a concern of ours;" that that supposedly is the basic principle of yours; that it is further stated that "work, food, and pay has to be determined if the worker can he longer work---then he is just something that we no longer are concerned with." What can you say in regard to these accusations? and where this is.
Q This is laid down in the record; that is, the minutes of the session; I have the page, the German, 2789. It says there "If the worker can no longer work, he is no longer any concern of ours." Did you represent this principle?
A On the contrary; there are hundreds of precise and clear decrees given out by me. These decrees are written down in the Reichsgesetzblatt. They are also present in special issues sent to the employment agencies and all of my statements are set down exact ly, that the foreign workers were brought into the Reich---as far as their treatment is concerned, when they were sick, this treatment was accorded them in line with German laws and of course there was insurance as well.
THE PRESIDENT: Dr. Servatius, were you putting to the defendant a document where it was alleged he had said that after they were unfit to work, that it is no more his concern? Was it the document you were putting to him?
DR. SERVATIUS: This document was submitted regarding the female workers about whom he is alleged to have said that they were to be Germanized. I have loft that document, your Honor, and now I have turned to the question of medical attention.
THE PRESIDENT: You mean that was in 025-PS, US 698.
DR. SERVATIUS: This document 025 refers to female workers only but we have left that question. We have disposed of that. I turned to another question, that of medical welfare but I am no longer dealing with the question of female workers. BY DR. SERVATIUS: as far as the state of health was concerned, that there was not enough medical care for the foreign workers?
A No. Not only German physicians became or got to be company physicians in those industries, and they had to deal with the hygienic conditions of health for the workers there, but also from the home countries of the foreign workers numerous positions and medical auziliary personnel was hired and put to use in these camps. and what other agencies of control operated?
DR. SERVATIUS: Just a moment. I should like to refer to document No. 2. In this document, I have put down these control agencies and agencies of inspections. They are put down in a comprehensive picture, diagrams. It is document No. 2. I should like to explain this diagram briefly. In the center, you have the Reich plan or ministry under Seldte. Underneath that, the surveillance during peace and the industry and construction police.
That is the only agency Which had police powers of compulsion; that is, against the resistance, which could do away with a business and beyond that, there were other places which had to deal with the difficult problem of the care of these workers. First of all, if you turn to the Reich, the German Labor Front is shown. That is a comprehensive agency of the interests of the workers and of thepeople giving work and in one way, it represents those functions which in the past were carried out by the unions. From there on, the care turned to the industrial involved. There was a special inspection office of the Reich, inspection office of the German Labor Front, and this is a place where the foreign workers had their own liaison men in order to take complaints. In the enterprises themselves, foreign workers were found who could report on condition there. Then, turning further to the right, is the Reich Food Ministry which as well, through the state office, concerned itself with food and billets, and the report which went to the Reich Foreign Minister in a diplomatic channel, and then with Sauckel in the last instance; and then for the Eastern workers, there is a special agency under the Ministry Rosenberg and that is the Central Board for the peoples from the East. And this last document, which we saw, apparently came from one of the gentlemen of this office; this Central Board for the people from theEast had their agents in the industries and received their reports. All these reports then turned to Sauckel.
Now, I shall turn to theleft part of my picture. Sauckel himself instituted for inspectional purposes, first of all, a labor staff which was sent about to visit enterprises and we have heard through several witnesses that these inspectors appeared and saw that everything was in order. Then he had a special office, the Reich Inspectorate. Complaints were sent to this inspectorate, complaints which came from the German Labor Front, and Sauckel says that he immediately transmitted these complaints to the proper agencies -- they were sent to the Reich Inspectorate which in turn advised the necessary offices and in the final analysis, for the carrying had to use the compulsory measures as applied by the Reich Labor Ministry. Then, also, the Gauleiters were put to use to serve for the surveillance and for the witnesses which had appeared here, witnesses who had been Gauleiters, had confirmed that, as they were charged with these problems and that they acted in accordance.
To the left, we deal with care, through the Reich Ministry for Public Enlightenment and Propaganda which carried out a surveillance of the camps and of the workers. Then, in conclusion, the very last point; the Wehrmacht had its own surveillance machinery through their inspectors which took care of the prisoners of war and which saw to it that the Geneva Convention was adhered. All of this was marshaled in the person of Sauckel and he has just told us that no catastrophic abuses were reported to him and that he used decrees and gave hisdirections and directives that way.
THE PRESIDENT: Dr. Servatius, will you ask the defendant whether that was a correct statement on the meaning of the chart? BY DR. SERVATIUS: submitted to you, is that correct? they were authorized and did you supervise the Gauleiters? discipline was concerned, they were not subordinate to me but through my labor staff, through the members of the staff at intervals of about three months, I had these Gaus visited and on the occasion of these visits, the complaints of the Gauleiters were listened to and enterprises and camps were inspected and it was checked to see how far my directives were carried out or not; and I should like to remark that this control or this check did not visit concentration camps, for that was an entirely different pattern which was subordinate to Pohl and I had no right to interfere there
THE PRESIDENT: We will adjourn now.
(A recess was taken until 1400 hours) (The hearing reconvened at 1400 hours, 29 May 1946)
DR. KUBUSCHOK (Counsel for defendant von Papen): I ask permission for the defendant von Papen to be absent from the court sessions tomorrow morning and afternoon, as I need a longer conversation with him for the preparation of his defense, which I would otherwise not be able to bring about. Dr. Flexner will be present during the session.
THE PRESIDENT: Yes.
THE MARSHAL: If it please the Tribunal, a report is made that the defendant Goering is absent.
THE PRESIDENT: As I said this morning, the Tribunal will rise at 4 this afternoon. BY DR. SERVATIUS: to one question. workers. Did that also apply to the prisoners of war and inmates of concentration camps?
A No. As far as the prisoner of war camps were concerned, the authority these prisoners of war were kept. even if they worked, only the Concentration camps themselves were responsible for them; that is, the administration. Reich Ministry of Labor. What were the tasks of that inspection department? before, in the Ministry of Labor because I wanted to see, in the entire area of the Reich and in the occupied territories where German enterprise and German labor contracts were valid, that the unity of these contracts and their execution should be examined, that unified administrative regulations should be examined and brought about, and also to see whether my decrees were carried out concerning food and lodging, and to what extent it was necessary to change them.
That also came out and was put down in a decree which I made concerning that inspection deparment. with regard to the German labor Front? That was the central inspection office for the care of foreign workers. camps in Germany, to care for the foreign workers, or rather, to inspect and examine the care that was taken of foreign workers, and to see whether that was done as it should be. ion department report that to you, or who received the report? Front, Dr. Ley, and myself, which was also added as an annex to the decree about the institution of a central inspection department. It stated that in every case where conditions in camps were in question or referred to, the central inspection department had to go directly to the Reich offices, that is, the inspection office in the Reich labor Ministry. However, shortcomings in the use of labor or of manpower itself-- for instance, whether too much or too little manpower was available--were to be reported to me.
Q By this agreement, therefore, your rights were limited?
DR. SERVATIUS: That is document 1913-PS, which has been submitted. It is an agreement between Sauckel and Dr. Ley of the 20th of September, 1943; it is USA 227.
It is document number 41 in the English document book. I shall only refer to it, without quoting from it.
Q What other kinds of inspection offices existed then? And I am thinking about the Frenchman. whose members in connection with the German labor front, had the right to visit camps, to listen to the workers individually, and to accept complaints from them. A special agreement had been reached with the French Govenment, in collaboration with the Reich foreign Ministry.
DR. SERVATIUS: That is document Sauckel No. 31. It is at page 79 of the English text in document book No.1. "French Agency for the care of the French workers utilized in the Reich." That is a circular from the General Plenipotentiary for Labor Commitment dated 30 April 1942. I submit herewith the document itself, which is in this collection. I quote:
"Herewith I publish the following communication of the Foreign Ministry of 10 April 1942.
"The Government of the Reich has notified the French Government that it agrees to the following regulations regarding the care of the French voluntary workers in Germany:
"Besides the already existing office for prisoners of war, an agency for the French civilian workers will be established under the direction of Ambassador Scapini in Berlin. The Reich Government is making a building to house this agency. The office may establish branches in four other German cities.
"The agency is charged with the care of the French workers in Germany. It supervises the observation of the contracts concluded by the engaged workers. It may accept propositions from the workers and transmit them to competent offices, and may see to the removal of unwholesome conditions. It is entitled to issue certificates and documents for the use of the workers before the French authorities."
"Moreover, the Chief of the entire French representation is granted the diplomatic privileges of personal immunity in execution of their tasks, as well as exemption from German juridiction and from the compulsory power of the police." BY DR. SERVATIUS:
Q Practically, how did that office work with you?
and with me, the representative of that office, took part in the negotiations in France with the French government. The office changed, insofar as the care of the civilian workers was later taken over by MR. Bruenedon in the place of Mr. Scapini.
Q Only a change of personnel?
A Yes, only a change of personnel. I have frequently talked with these gentlemen and acted according to their demands. East? office of the Reich Commissar for the Eastern territories.
Q How did that office work? only that it was a German organization but it had the confidence of the eastern workers which worked with us as liaison men.
Q Didn't you receive any complaints from that side? and which were reported to me through him, none. discipline, What regulations existed there in order to maintain labor discipline, punctuality, correctness of work? What kind of regulations existed? were a matter of the individual industries. Each industry, each unit, had regulations which, in agreement between management and the workers' council, had been established in normal times. This council had the authority to establish fines in the form of payments. During the war the question of labor discipline had become more central because it was not possible, on the basis of scarcity of workers, to make use of the right of dismissal because the German worker and German labor were under emergency decrees, war time emergency decrees and laws. In order to maintain it, though, later, upon suggestion by the Ministerial Council, I issued a decree No. 13.
That decree is available, and provides, first, a graduated punishment within the industries against perpetration against work discipline; that is lack of punctuality.
DR. SERVATIUS: That is Document No. 23, Document Book Sauckel; in the English book, No. I, Page 62. The witness has mentioned the contents. I only refer to it now.
THE WITNESS: These measures within the industries for the maintenance of work discipline were graduated from a reproach for laxity up to fines, military fines as high as a day's wages. BY DR. SERVATIUS:
Q What was done in case of tenacious perpetrations? taken care of by the Honor Courts of the Labor Front, it had to be reported to the police. that decree? Germans.
Q And what in case of criminal offenses?
A They also had to be reported to the police. The labor authorities had no competence in criminal and similar cases. were not applied correctly? That is if instead of fines corporal punishment would have been used?
A These complaints came to the Labor Front; that is to say, to the Liaison member of the Labor Front.
Q Have any such cases been reported to you? within our competence.
Q What were the labor training camps, educational camps?
Q Who came into such camps? cers as punishment for perpetrations against labor regulations.
Q Was that the same as concentration camps?
A No, in my opinion not. Also, the labor training camps, correction camps, were neither under the care of the Reich Labor Ministry nor under nine. That was a police institution. a number of workers, in fact, came into concentration camps. How can you explain that?
A DR. SERVATIUS: That is Document 1063, USA Exhibit No. 219, a letter of 17 December, '42; in the English Document Book No. 28, in the Slave Labor book. BY DR. SERVATIUS: and the Security Service, SD, secret to all SS officers; at any rate, not to you. I quote: "For reasons of war necessity not to be discussed further here, the Reichfuehrer SS and Chief of the German Police, on 14 December, 1942, has ordered that until the end of January, 1943, at least 35,000 prisoners qualified for work are to be sent to the concentration camps. In order to reach this number, the following measures are required: 1. As of now, so far, until 1 February 1943, all eastern workers, or such foreign workers who have been fugitives or have broken contracts, are to be brought by the quickest means to the nearest concentration camps --"
THE PRESIDENT: Presumably, the witness knows the document.
DR. SERVATIUS: Yes. I only want to inform him briefly. BY DR. SERVATIUS:
Q Do you know that document?
Q You didn't look through it yet? sive part. Will you please read at the bottom of the first page. It says the following: "To Other Officers: Every one of these measures has to be described as absolutely necessary measures of security with causes given and taken from the individual case so that complaints can be prevented and complaints avoided."
What did you know about that decree? I see many things explained by it about which we could not find any answers. That seems to be a letter by Gruppenfuehrer Mueller, and to my surprise, it states quite clearly that other authorities -- and they can only refer to my offices of Speer's, that these measures should be described as security measures. That was a fraud against us.
THE PRESIDENT: Before you pass from this document, I understood the Defendant to say that workers were sent to labor camps for infraction of labor rules. That was what you said, wasn't it?
THE WITNESS: If workers, in spite of repeated warnings and fines within the industries, did not show improvement or the perpetrations continued, these workers were sent by the industries, not by me -- were reported by the industries, not by me, to the police officers; and these police officers, to my knowledge, had an agreement with the Reich Minister of Justice according to which police courts -
THE PRESIDENT: I asked you where they were sent, when you said that they were sent to labor camps for infraction of labor rules and for no other reason. Did you say that?
THE WITNESS: For no other reason; for perpetrations or for criminal offenses.
THE PRESIDENT: Then how do you explain the first words of Paragraph 1 of this document: "As of now, all eastern workers must be sent to the nearest concentration camps"?
THE WITNESS: It says here, in the German text, Your Lordship: "As of now, so far, until 1 February, '43, all eastern workers, or such foreign workers who have been fugitives or who have broken contracts, who do not belong to Allied friendly or neutral states, are to be brought by the quickest means, and under consideration of the necessary formalities as listed under No. 3, to the nearest concentration camps."
That is the directive of that office which I did not know.
BY DR. SERVATIUS:
Q What do you understand by "extermination by labor"?
A I have heard that expression, "extermination by labor" for the first time here in the court room. Such a point of view happened to be absolutely contrary to my interests with which was charged inmy office. and I also directed my assistant that we would have nothing to do with that use of manpower. I had nothing to do with punitive measures of any kind. industries program? had nothing to do with it, and I never participated in conferences about that Order in order to get workers to Germany.
A I personally never know the Nacht and Nebel Order. I only found about this here. It had nothing to do with my task of manpower mobilization.
Q What about the commitment of Jewish labor? What did your office have to do with it?
A I had nothing to do with the commitment of Jews. That was the job of the Reichsfuehrer SS entirely.
Q I submit the document R 91. That is U.S.A. Exhibit 241, and RF 347. It is not included in the document books. That is a letter from the Chief of Security Police and Sd Mueller to the field command post of the Reichsfuehrer SS of the 16th of December, 1942. It says there:
"Because of the increase of the recruitment of manpower which has been ordered, and their transfer to the KL" -- which should be "KZ"; that is, concentration camps -- "in the use of Jewish manpower, we include the following: Total number. 45 Jews".
Then there is a detailed specification. And among other things, it says at the and, "3,000 Jews from the occupied territories of the Netherlands", and further, "The number of 45,000 does not include the number of these incapable of working."
What is your connection with that letter?
A I just noticed that letter for the first time. I have not known it before; and I can only emphasize that these transports and these happenings were not at all identical with my task, or my mission, and that at no time had I anything to do with them.
Q Then we have here L 61, which has been submitted. That is U.S.A. Exhibit 177, in the English Document Book, "Slave Labor", Document No. 6. This document was in the first list of documents which was made available to the defense, and it was listed as an original letter by Sauckel which admitted the dwportation of Jews. particularly as to how far you had anything to do there with deportation of Jews?
I shall briefly explain the contents. It says there in that letter of the 26th of November, 1942:
"By agreement with the Chief of the Security Police and the SD, Jews who are still in employment now are from now on to be evacuated from the territory of the Reich and are to be replaced by Poles who are being deported by the German government."
It is a letter which ends, "I transmit the foregeing copy for your information. Insofar as the removal of Jews concerns your area, I request that you take the necessary measures in cooperation with the competent officers of the Security Police and the SD".
Then it says, "Signed, Fritz Sauckel".
Will you state your position with respect to that letter, please? already in preliminary interrogations.
When it was presented to me again in the course of the proceedings, I found out that it was not an original document which I signe. It bears my name typewritten. supposed to have signed, was not detelined by my office. My office, as can be seen frommany documents, was in Berlin, in the Mohrland Strasse. This letter came from the Saarland Strasse. did I have an arrangement with the SD and Security Police in the sense of that letter. I could not remember the letter in any way, and I cannot remember it new, either. The only correct thing stated in that letter is that I was obliged to make up the loss of manpower in German industry, whether they were Jews, soldiers, or other losses of manpower, within two weeks. It is possible that that letter came from the Saarland Strasse, from a subordinate office. I cannot say anything else about it.
Q How is it, then, that the last phrase "Signed, Fritz Sauckel", comes under the letter? That I cannot understand.
THE PRESIDENT (interposing): Have you got the original there?
DR. SERVATIUS: No, I do not have the original. It has been submitted by the prosecution, and therefore is in the files of the Tribunal.
THE WITNESS: The happenings were happenings which occurred before I came into the office; that is, at the time I came into the office, they had already taken place. BY DR. SERVATIUS:
Q Did you have any knowledge as to what would happen to the Jews?
A Do you mean - ?
Q (Interposing) The'final solution?
A No, I have no knowledge of that. It would have alleviated my task, and I would have had much less difficulty, if all these people, as far as they could have worked, would have been made available for the manpower mobilization. That final solution was quite unknown to me, and was quite contrary to my interests.
wages?
Q What kind of wages was paid? Will you first read these out? which had been agreed upon by contract with the various offices in the government, and that was the wage according to legal wages in certain regions in Germany.
Q What about the so-called Eastern workers? I took office which put heavy taxation on their wages in favor of the Reich. This was on the basis of a decree of the Ministerial Council for National Defense. conditions? which I issued during my term of office -- that this settlement, which I considered intolerable, was improved gradually stop by stop, as far as it was possible for meto overcome the resistance against it, so that in 1944 the Eastern worker was on the same level as the German worker.
The first improvement was reached already in June, 1942, by 100%, the second in 1943, and the last in March, 1944, by Decree 11.
DR. SERVATIUS: I am referring here to the following documents which I shall not read:
Document S-50, in Book 2, page 134; Document S-17, in Book 2, page 137; Document S-52, Book 2, page 143; a further document, S-58, Book 2, page 156; and finally, Document S-58 A, Book 2, page161. I submit the original in a collection "Working Conditions of the Eastern Workers."
THE PRESIDENT: Dr. Servatius, I understood the defendant to say just new that that document L-61 was drawn up before he took charge of the labor commitment.
DR. SERVATIUS: No, he said that the contents referred to happenings which occurred before his term, of office and were almost completed at the time when that letter was drafted ; that the condition had already existed.
THE PRESIDENT: There is nothing in the document to show that, is there?
DR. SERVATIUS: It can be seen from the date.
THEPRESIDENT: The date is the 26th of November, 1942.
DR. SERVATIUS: The appendix refers to a decree of the 27th of March, 1942, the second appendix, and then if we go back further, there is an appendix of the 21st of January, 1942, and both of them deal with that question. That which we have quoted here was only the last letter, the final letter.
THE PRESIDENT: I see, We haven't got the full document before us then.
DR. SERVATIUS: Yes, I shall submit it. BY DR. SERVATIUS: workers receive any compensation besides these wages? in the form of premiums for better work, Christmas bonuses such as the German workers received, and then there was an agreement with the Eastern ministry to the effect that the families of eastern workers should receive the amount of 131 rubles per month upon request.
DR. SERVATIUS: I refer here to several documents, that is, Document 22 in the English book Volume 1, page 59, and then a decree, Document 54, concerning premiums, which is in Volume 2, page 151; then to Document 57 concerning Christmas bonuses, Volume 2, page 155.
BY DR. SERVATIUS:
Q What remained for the eastern workers as cash? before the regulations I had brought about. After his expenses had been deducted for lodging and food, there remained about 4 marks 60 pfennigs per week. One might consider the average wage for an average worker in German industry of 60 pfennigs in order to give an example. for the same type of worker in June 1942, after I had an opportunity to examine these conditions, by about 100 per cent, to 9 marks 10. sidering his taxes and expenses for rent and heat, under no circumstances could save any more or have any more savings left over. That principle was made a general rule by the Ministerial Council for Reich Defense. That was not set up by me, but in March or April 1943, the Russian worker also on the basis of my intervention, found an improvement up to about 12 marks, and in the spring it was improved to about 18 marks.
THE PRESIDENT: I don't think we need to have all this in detail. There is no particular charge against the defendant that he didn't pay any of the workers, is there? I mean, he says he paid them and we don't want the details of thenumber of marks.
DR. SERVATIUS: Mr. President, an accusation has been made as to slave labor, which as a rule is unpaid labor, and the French Report RF-22 has figured a damage of 77 billions which was brought about to France by the use of her workers. In that connection, it is interesting to hear this at least briefly.
THE PRESIDENT: You don't want exact details of it, do you? BY DR. SERVATIUS:
Q What about the possibility of transferring these wages? because the only sensible reason for a foreign worker to work in Germany was so that he could support his family back home by sending part of his earnings back to his native country. That was done on the basis of agreement reached with the President of the German Reichsbank. He himself has testified to that.
DR. SERVATIUS: Concerning the question of wages, I refer to Document 021-PS, which has been submitted as F-44. It is not in either one of the document books.
It is dated the 2nd of April 1943. It is a draft with the calculation of wages, dealing with the improvement of wages of eastern workers. I do not want to quote it, but a study will reveal that serious attempts were made here to bring about an improvement and a balance of conditions. BY DR. SERVATIUS:
Q What was the duration of labor contracts? in each particular case, been made with the governments in question. As far as the western and southern countries were concerned, the duration of the contract for one-half year or three-quarters year or one year was foreseen. As far as the countries in the east were concerned, or the Soviet workers, I found, when I came into office, I was confronted with a regulation which foresaw an indefinite period, and since I considered the regulation necessary here in spite of the great distances, I finally saw to it that here also a limitation of two years was made. after the war, that these foreign workers should remain in Germany? I ask that question because the French Prosecution, from the book "Europe Works in Germany", RF-5, on page 23, has quoted a passage which expresses the following:
"A large percentage of foreign workers, after victory, will remain in cur Gaus in order to be retrained for recovery work, and to continue what the outbreak of war made impossible, and what, on the basis of plans, is waiting for realization." exist even after the war. I believe that it can also be found there that the workers would return home and there put to us in the interests of their own homeland, part of their new experiences and their new knowledge which they had gained in Germany.
I do so -- to keep foreign workers in Germany after the war. On the contrary, I even directed that a very carefully set up card file of foreign workers should be kept, on the basis of which, in case of a favorable end of the war, it would be possible for me to return these workers conscientiously to their native countries and to keep a record of it.
Q If I understood you correctly? we are not confronted with forcible retention of the workers, but keeping them here at their wish. workers wanted to stay in Germany.
Q What about the forced obligation, the labor draft? How were contracts made there? difference made between the pay of what we called Dienstverpflichtungen, labor dra ft, and voluntary workers. They had the right, regardless of how they were recruited, to return after three quarters of a year. There existed the possibility of extension.