consultation? absolutely necessary to discuss questions with neighboring departments, and I was obliged to do so. which you were placed? the assignments, also with the Party Chancellery, with the office of Reich Minister Lammers, the Reich Chancellery, with the Reichsbahn, the Reich Railroad, with the Reich Food Ministry, and so forth.
Q Was that easy, or were there difficulties?
Q Did you have any dealings with Himmler?
A Only in so far as he gave instructions. He was responsible for security, as he said. regard to the treatment of the workers? assignment, I was called to see Heydrich. In a precise and strict way, Heydrich told me that my program, which had been approved by the Fuehrer, should be considered a kind of fantasy, that I should realize that it was fantasy not to have barbed wire and so forth around the labor camps, that this made his work very difficult; I was responsible for labor commitments he was responsible for security. That is what he told me.
Q Were you satisfied with that, that strict police measures existed? as they concerned the workers who my agency and my office put to work in Germany.
Q What was the content of your right to issue instructions? Could you issue orders or did you have to carry on negotiations, or how was this carried out in practice? the beginning because I was forbidden, because of the necessities of war, to establish any new office or organization of my own.
I could give instructions only after negotiation with the supreme Reich authorities and consultation. They were, of course, purely of a business nature. I could not intervene in the administration. authorities in the occupied territories?
A It was exactly the same, of a business nature. In practice, it was the chance to pass on the Fuehrer Orders which were carried out there in the machinery of the administration.
had to be followed, to the Economic Inspectorate East, for example? operational areas, only the military commanders were competent, and everything had to be regulated through those agencies. give orders directly there? the military commander the instructions which I myself had received. He then consulted with the German Embassy and prepared thorn for the French Government, so that in charge of the ambassador, and with the participation of the military commander, the discussion with the French Government took place.
Q And what about the Ministry for the Occupied Eastern Territories? situation was such that I had to turn over my assignment to the Reich Minister for the Occupied Eastern Territories and discuss it with him. We always succeeded in reaching an agreement with Reich Minister Rosenberg and in settling matters in a way that we considered right. But in the Ukraine particularly, the East, the Reich Commissar had very close relationships to headquarters, and it is generally known he acted very independently. took up your activities? taking up my work, because I brought new assignments, new necessities, into these territories, and it was not always easy to reconcile the various interests. of the district? but there were many selfish interests at work there.
Nov I should like to ask you: You had deputies for the labor commitment. When did you obtain them?
personal decree of the Fuehrer, as I recall, of the 30th of September 1942.
Q What was the occasion? difficulties and the disorganization in these areas, and to dispose of them.
DR. SERVATIUS: I refer in this connection to Document 12, the Fuehrer Decree. The execution of the decree on the Deputy General for Labor Comitments is Document 13. The decree on the appointment of deputies is on page 13 of the document book. Document 12 has already been submitted as 1903-PS, U.S. Exhibit 206. BY DR. SERVATIUS: deputies previously? who in allied or neutral countries were assigned to the German ambassador. The are to be distinguished from these deputies who were assigned to the chiefs of the German military or civilian administration in the occupied territories.
Q What position All the deputies hold in the occupied Territories?
A In the Occupied Territories, the deputies had a dual position. They were the leaders of the labor sections or in the local government there, which made my work more difficult and at the same time, there were deputies for me in order to carry out the principles of labor commitments if I had established then uniformly. organization of the district government?
A I did not have my organization of my own. The district governments were completely closed and administrations headed by the administration chief under whom the various departments took place.
Q How many such deputies were there in one district? each.
Q What was the task of the deputy? execution of German orders, to guarantee the legality and in their field of work as members of the local a administration, to deal with labor questions which came up there. of labor in local commitments and in the Reich? in the treatment, feeding, and so forth, of workers were observed.
Q Did you not have your own recruiting commission? in our own documents. It is a question of reinforcement by exports which were demanded by the district government in order to carry out the tasks in the countries in question.
Q What instructions did these recruiting commissions have? regulations and in my orders, which I therefore need not mention.
Q I refer here to document 15. It has already been submitted--3044-PS. US 206 and also as USSR 384. That is a decisive order No 4 of the 7th of May 1942. This settles in principle all important questions, also in regard to the deputies circulars and the recruitment directives given.
Q Were these directives, issued by you, always adhered to? that I demanded. I made ever effort through constant instructions and threat of punishments which I, however, could not impose.
Q Were these orders so seriously meant? The French prosecution has submited a government report, one of your speeches which you had made at the time in Posen. It was a speech of apology. I ask you, were these principles meant seriously or only for appear once; and you. yourself. believed that it was impossible? diffcult conditions and those instructions express my full conviction on the necessity of these instructions.
Q Was there opposition to your principles? German security by many authorities, Aside from a number of instructions to German Gauleiters, I issued a manifesto to all German government agencies in question.
Dr. SERVATIUS: May I remark that is document S-84, in document book 3, page 15, I will submit the document once more in German, in which form it was printed. It is in an urgent warning form and was sent to all agencies.
THE PRESIDENT: Is it document No. 84?
DR. SERVATIUS: Yes.
THE WITNESS: On the question of the Central Planning Board, I should like to be allowed to say a word in regard to this manifesto. When I issued this manifesto, I encountered primarily from Dr. Goebbels the objection that a manifesto could really be issued only by the Fuehrer and not by a subordinate agency such as mine. Then I observed that there were difficulties in having the manifesto printed; after I had one hundred fifty thousand for all German economic agencies, for all war leaders, for all interested agencies printed, I again in this clear form had it printed with a corresponding accompanying letter and sent it once more to all these agencies. In this manifesto, in spite of the difficulties which I encountered, I especially advocated that in the Occupied Territories themselves, the workers should be treated according to my principles and according to my directives and orders. I ask permission of the Court to be allowed to read a few sentences from it.
"I therefore order that for all occupied territories for the treatment, feeding, billeting and paying of foreign workers, appropriate regulations and directives be issued similar to those valid for foreigners in the Reich. They are to be adjusted to the respective local conditions and applied according to their meaning. In a number of the Eastern Territories, native civilian men and women workers working for German war industry or parts of the German Wehrmacht, are undernourished. It is in the urgent interest of German war industry in this territory to remove this condition which interfere with reduction and is dangerous. An endeavor must therefore be made with all means available that additional food for these workers and their families is provided. Only through the good care and treatment of the whole available European labor capacity and through organizing it and through their strict organization, leadership and direction, a fluctuation of the labor powers in the Reich and in the Occupied Territories can be limited to a minimum and only then can a stable and reliable output be achieved."
May I read one more sentence: "The foreign workers in the Reich and the population in the Occupied Territories who are being used for the German war effort must be given the feeling that it is in their own interest to work loyally for Germany and that they find their only life insurance therein."
THE PRESIDENT: I think we better not go further in this document. Can you indicate to us at all how long you are likely to be with this defendant?
DR. SERVATIUS: Tomorrow, I will probably need the whole day. 23-1 Daniels
THE PRESIDENT: Mr. Dodd, would it be convenient for you some time to deal with the documents of the remaining defendants?
Mr. DODD: Yes, Mr. President, any time that you might set aside.
THE PRESIDENT: Well, you know how far the negotiations and agreements have gone with reference to documents.
MR. DODD: I do as to some, but not all. I can ascertain the facts tonight, or before the morning session, and advise you at that time.
THE PRESIDENT: Yes, and you will let us know tomorrow what time will be convenient?
MR. DODD: Yes, sir.
THE PRESIDENT: The Tribunal will adjourn.
(The Tribunal adjourned until 29 May 1946, at 1000 hours.)
on 29 May 1946, 1000-1700. Lord Justice
THE PRESIDENT: The Tribunal will adjourn this afternoon at 4 o'clock' in order to sit in closed session.
MR. DODD: (of the American Prosecution): Mr. President, the day before yesterday the Tribunal asked if we would ascertain whether or not Document D-830 had been offered in evidence. It consisted of extracts from the testimony of Admiral Raeder and we have ascertained that it was offered, and it is GB-463, It was put to a witness by Mr. Elwyn Jones in the course of cros examination, and it has been offered in evidence.
THE PRESIDENT: Thank you.
MR. DODD: Also, with respect to the Court's inquiry concerning the status of other Defendants and their documents, we are able to say this morn ing that with respect to the Defendant Jodl, the documents are now being translated and mimeographed and there is no need for any hearing before the Tribunal. and mimeographed.
The von Papen documents are settled; there is no disagreement between the Prosecution and the Defendant von Papen. And they are in the process of being mimeographed and translated. any hearing, and I expect that by the end of today they will be sent to the translating and mimeographing department. by the Defendant to the Prosecution.
Kerrl speaks and says:
"During that entire period, you have brought a large number of Frenchmen to the Reich by voluntary recruitment."
There is an interruption by Sauckel:
"Also by forced recruitment."
The speaker continues:
"Forces recruitment started when voluntary recruitment did not bring sufficient numbers.
Now comes the remark to which I want you to speak. You answered:
"Of the five millions of foreign workers who came to Germany, less than 200,000 came voluntarily."
Would you care to explain that contradiction? regarding the opinion of Mr. Kerrl, that all workers had come voluntarily, that that was not correct. That proportion of figures which is marked down here by the stenographer or the man in charge of the records is quite impossible. How that error occurred, I do not know. I have never seen the minutes. Concerning that also, the witness Timm and others can make statements.
DR. SERVATIUS: I am referring here to Document S-15, that is, Directive No.4 which has been quoted already, which deals with the recruitment measures in detail and various regulations. It has already been submitted as 3044-PS. BY DR. SERVATIUS: voluntary recruitment? very considerable actions. The need for manpower in Germany, on the other hand, had become tremendous. During that period, on the part of the French, the Belgians and the Dutch, the demand was put to me, in order to bring about a better balance of economy in these territories, that we should proceed to a labor draft so that the pressure from the opponents would be alleviated and the Dutch and Belgians and French themselves should have the possibility of stating that they did not go to Germany voluntarily, but on account of the labor draft and on account of the law.
that the people did not want to come voluntarily any more? of the victor or of the one to be defeated would cause great excitement among the workers, and it certainly played a great part in it.
THE TRIBUNAL (Mr. Biddle) (Interposing): Dr. Servatius, will you ask the witness what he means by a labor draft law. Does he mean a law of Germany or a law of the occupied countries? BY DR. SERVATIUS: or a law of the occupied countries.
A That varied. The Reich Government, in some of the territories, introduced laws according to the laws that were valid for the German people at the same time. But these laws could not be issued by me.
They were issued by the chiefs of the regional governments or regional administrations. consent of Marshal Petain; in Belgium, after a vote had been taken by the general secretaries or general directors of the ministries then still existing.
THE PRESIDENT: Do you mean in the other countries by the German Government or the German Government's representatives? You have only spoken of -
THE WITNESS: (Interposing); The directive to introduce German labor laws in the occupied territories was givenly the Fuehrer. They were proclaimed and introduced by those chiefs who had been appointed by the Fuehrer for these territories, because I myself was not in a position to issue any directive laws or regulations there.
THE PRESIDENT: Go on. BY DR. SERVATIUS:
Q How were these laws carried out? legal publications, then in the press and by posters in those territories. How were the people brought t o Germany? labor office, which was mostly administered by native authorities, and in individual cases, according to my directives which have been submitted here, hardship cases had to be taken into consideration. Then, in the normal manner, as it was also done in Germany, the individual workers or draftees were brought to Germany. and towns in Russia, in France, and in Belgium, and I saw that they were carried out in good order.
Q If compulsion was necessary, what measures were taken? justified in every administrative civil procedure.
Q And if that was not sufficient?
Q So these were legal measures? here that a certain pressure should be used. What did you mean by that? an obligation.
Q Weren't measures used which brought some sort of collective pressure? refusal of collective pressure can seen in decrees which have been issued by other officials in the German Reich.
Q Wasn't it true that in the East the villages, individual villages, were called upon to deliver a certain number of people?
A. Of course, in the East the administrative procedure, on the basis of great distances, was quite difficult. In the lower echelons, to my knowledge, only the mayors who were in office, the native mayors, were carrying it out. It is possible that a mayor had been presented with a quota indicating that from his village or town he had to select and present several workers for the work in Germany.
Q. Is that the same thing as collective pressure, that if nobody came the entire village had to be punished?
A. Measures of that kind were always refused by me in my field, always rejected, because I could not and did not want to introduce into German economy any workers who had been brought to Germany in any way, means or manner, which from the very outset would make them hate the stay and the work in Germany.
Q. What police measures were at your disposal then?
A. I had no police measures at my disposal.
Q. Who carried out measures of police pressure?
A. Police pressure in the occupied territories could be exerted by directive or by demand of the chief of the territory, or the Higher SS and Police Leader, depending on the authority he had.
Q. So you were not responsible for direct pressure?
A. No.
Q. Did you exert indirect pressure by your directives, by measures concerning food and similar measures?
A. After the fall of Stalingrad, Reichsminister Dr. Goebbels in Berlin, at the occasion of proclaiming a state of total war, intervened in all of thes questions. Upon his intervention, in cases of consistent refused to work or continuous resistance and actions of resistance, compulsion was to be used by refusal of additional food rations, and it was to go so far as the taking away of food rations altogether. was well known to me that in the western territories the so-called food ration did not play an important role, and the resistance movement and its members wa such a large organization that this would have been quite ineffective. Theref such measures cannot be traced to my initiative, but possible to my defrees.
stated that if the directive of the Frenchmen does not work, then one would have to put a prefect against the wall. Did you consider this a legally justifiable pressure? resulted in an official influence on my part. That was simply so. that I had been informed that in France in several departments, the prefets or chiefs who were responsible, favored the resistance movement exceedingly; railroad tracks had been blown up, bridges had been blown up, and that was a conversational reaction on my part. I believe, however, that also on that occasion, I was only thinking sabotage was to be punished by death.
THE PRESIDENT: Is it in R-124?
DR. SERVATIUS: Yes.
THE PRESIDENT: Which page?
DR. SERVATIUS: It is on page 1776, where it says that on the basis of the BY DR. SERVATIUS: French authorities cooperate or whether there were such laws? received, which mentioned perpetrations and impossible conditions which had alle gedly been caused by recruitment measures. That can you state about that, generally things have been mentioned such as you have heard it here, which measures everybody has to reject. You heard of the burning of villages and the shooting of individuals. What is your position as to that? structions that I have issued and which are still available from that period and to which I have to refer. We are confronted here with methods, such, that if I would have heard of any hints of them I would have fought them.
Q Well, who has the imediate responsibility for such incidents?
be in a position to advise us more exactly in the course of the day. I expect that I shall be able to advise the Tribunal as to the Defendant Fritzsche before the session ends today.
THE PRESIDENT: Does that conclude all questions of witnesses?
MR. DODD: Yes, I believe -- at lease, we have no objection to any of the witnesses.
THE PRESIDENT: Very well, then; there need not be any further hearing in open court on the cases of the Defendants Jodl, Seyss-Inquart, von Papen and Speer until their actual cases are presented.
MR. DODD: Yes, sir.
THE PRESIDENT: Thank you.
DR. SERVATIUS (Counsel for the Defendant Sauckel): Mr. President, I have a technical question to put. Yesterday the witness Hildebrandt arrived, but it was the wrong Hildebrandt again. That is the third witness which appears here in this comedy of errors; it was the wrong one with two others. But the man knows where the right ones are. here and then they came to Berlin to a collecting centre, Lichterfelde. Maybe it is possible to get these two witnesses here from there, especially the witness Hildebrandt, who could speak about the French matters.
He would be o* importance, if I could still have him as a witness.
THE PRESIDENT: Was the name given accurately to the General Secretary?
DR. SERVATIUS: The name was right, was accurate, The other name was al Hildebrandt, but not Hubert, but Heinrich. He was also a Ministerialdirektor
THE PRESIDENT: I don't mean only the surname but all his Christion na*
DR. SERVATIUS: Yes, one name was Heinrich and the other Hubert, and a abbreviated it was "H" for both, "Dr. H. Hildebrandt", and that is how it happened.
THE PRESIDENT: Well, ifn future the names of all witnesses had better given in full, not merely with initials.
DR. SERVATIUS: I had given the name in full, also the physician, Dr. J I received his private address this morning. He has not been arrested. He was at first a witness for the Prosecution. He is in Essen, on the Viehhof Plats He is there now.
THE PRESIDENT: I think you had had better take up all these details w* the General Secretary and he will give you every assistance.
DR. SERVATIUS: Concerning the case of Sauckel, I should like to make remark. Prosecution and which have a remote connection to Sauckel's case. It was not case that the trial brief was presented against Sauckel or a special indivi indictment against him, so that in detail I cannot see how far Sauckel is he responsible. The case has been presented under the heading of "Slave Labor", that the ground for the Defense is a bit insecure. should like to reserve the right to refer to some of these documents in cas* that should appear necessary later on. I should like to mention only the mo important ones and then in the course of the proceedings to refer to them. any rate, I would not like to make it appear as if there was an admission i* objections are made by me now against any one of these documents.
THE PRESIDENT: No admission will be inferred from that. Dr. Servatius have before me here a document presented by the French Prosecution against Defendant Sauckel.
I suppose what you mean is that that document, that trial brief, entitled "Responsibility Individuelle", doesn't refer to each of these 150 documents.
DR. SERVATIUS: First of all, there was a document book "Slave Labor" had been submitted by the American Prosecution and that is not headed "Sauckel but "Slave Labor" . So that I could not say which parts concerned Sauckel particular.
THE PRESIDENT: Well, it does say, "And the special responsibility of Defendant Sauckel and Speer threrfor." That is the American Document Book. does name Sauckel
DR. SERVATIUS: Yes.
THE PRESIDENT: And there is this other trial brief presented by MR. Mo* on behalf of the French Delegation, which is definitely against Sauckel, but there is no doubt that doesn't specify all these 150 documents that you are fering to.
DR. SERVATIUS: Yes.
BY DR. SERVATIUS: about a manifest, that writing which was intended to point out to the various offices their duties to carry out your directives and to remove the resistance that existed there. Now, you yourself have made statements which are not quite compatible with your directives, it seems. I submit to you Document R-124. That is about a meeting of the Central Planning of 1 March 1944. There, in regard to recruitment, you said that it would be "necessary to shanghai, as one had done before, in order to got the workers." You said, "I have even resorted to the method of getting myself a staff of Frenchmen and training them to capture human beings in order to got them to Germany."Have you found that?
THE PRESIDENT: Whereabouts in 124 is it?
DR. SERVATIUS: That is R-124.
THE PRESIDENT: Yes, but it is a very long document.
DR. SERVATIUS: It is in the document itself, page 1770.
THE PRESIDENT: Yes, I have got it.
A (Continuing) That is, as I can see, the report or minutes of a meeting of Central planning of the Spring of 1944. During that year it had become extremely difficult for me to meet the demands of the various groups which were represented in Central Planning. At no time have I issued directives or recommendations for the shanghai-ing of people. Merely in a reminiscent mood, thinking back to my career as a seaman, I wanted to make a rather strong statement, and therefore I used that word in order to make clear to the gentlemen how difficult it was and had become particularly in the year 1944.
In fact, a very simple situation is behind that. According to German labor laws and according to my own convictions, the old word "Arbeitsvermittlung" for the use of manpower was a privilege of the autonomous state and we, and I myself, had always been against private means of recruitment.
In 1944 Minister President Laval, Chief of the French Government, had stated to me that he had the greatest difficulties to see to it that the labor laws were carried out by his own employees. Ditier, there were conferences in the German Embassy. The witness Hildebrandt, I believe, can give us more information about that. These conferences were with the chiefs of collaborationist organizations; that is to say, organizations within the French population which were standing on the basis of collaboration with Germany. These organizations, in the course of these conferences at the Germ Embassy, stated that in their opinion the official recruitment in France had become very difficult and they would like to take care of that and that they would like to make agents for recruitment of their members, and they also wanted to recruit people out of their membership who would like to go voluntarily to Germany, so that recruitment should not be taking place by official agancies but in coffee houses. expenses, and these expenses had to be compensated for, so the age for recruitment should receive a premium and eventually a glass of wine or some liquors. was in such difficulties in the face of the demands put to me that I agreed, without intending, of course, that at any time the concept of shanghai-ing, with its reminiscences of overseas, and so forth, would be taken into consideration. your suggestion? loaders of these French organizations. mention is made of a special executive which you wanted to create for the mobilization of manpower, and it says there, if you wish to read it: