each in their own machinery further below down to the local labor offices which are under the local authorities, and other workers are assigned to the factories from here. That is the reservoir of foreigners. Then these are two more sources of labor, the reservoir of German workers, which is marked in blue to the left at the bottom, and the reservoir of prisoners of war. With these three agencies Sauckel had to deal. I will now ask, put the corresponding questions to the witness. This is only to refresh the memory and control the exposition. I will submit other charts later. It shows the positions of the individual in the agency and later a chart on the inspection and controls which were set up.
THE PRESIDENT: Dr. Servatius, you will no doubt be asking the witness whether he is familiar with the chart and whether it is correct. BY DR. SERVATIUS:
Q Witness, you have seen this chart. Is it correct? Do you acknowledge it? and I acknowledge it. General for Labor Commitment. Why were you chosen for this office? learned and I do not know it. On the basis of my engineering studies I concerned myself with problems of labor systems but I do not know whether that was the reason.
Q Was your appointment not made at Speer's suggestion. preamble.
Q I refer to Sauckel's document 7 in document book 1, page 5. prise to me, that I did not try to get it in any way, that I never to obtain any of my offices.
THE PRESIDENT: What number are you giving to this document?
DR. SERVATIUS: Document Number 7.
THE PRESIDENT: I mean the chart. What number are you giving to the chart?
DR. SERVATIUS: Document 1.
THE PRESIDENT: Number 7, page 5.
DR. SERVATIUS: Yes. This document is a preamble to the decree issued by the Reichsleiter Bormann -- added to the decree by Reichsleiter Bormann. It shows that it was Speer who suggested Sauckel for this position. BY DR. SERVATIUS:
Q Was this a completely new office which you took up?
A No. "Arbeitseinsatz" existed before my appointment -was directed by the Four-Year Plan. "Ministerialdirektor" Dr. Mansfeld was occupied with this office at that tine. Before me this office was characterized as that of Plenipotentiary General, but I learned that only here.
Q On taking up your office did you talk to Dr. Mansfeld, your predecessor?
A I did not see Dr. Mansfeld, and did not speak to him. I received no instructions from him. the previous Plenipotentiary General?
A My office was different to this extent: The departments in the Four-Year Plan were dissolved and were no longer used by me. I used departments of the Reich Labor Ministry because they had exports; used them more and more in this work.
Q What was the reason for this re-formation of the agency? til the third year of war had exerted their influence; political, state, internal administration offices, party agencies and economic agencies opposed the transfer of workers which had become urgent.
sentences. I believe the interpreters would be grateful to you. What task did you have, what field of work? German labor commitment. I was charged -- the workers who had to be freed from the economy because of drafting into the Wermacht, I was to replace them. Moreover, I also had to obtain new workers for new war industries which had been set up in the field as food industry as well as armament industry, of course, arms production.
Q Was your assignment definitely defined? fined. There were about 23 or 24 million workers present in the Reich which were not entirely in war industry. one?
A No. I could not consider this a permanent assignment.
Q Why not? office and the whole Labor Ministry.
Q What sources did you have to obtain these workers?
A First I had the workers in the Reich. The various occupations were not yet in war industry, not yet completely, in the way necessary for the commander. bution, thrifty management of German labor?
THE PRESIDENT: Defendant, I do not understand the German language but it appears to me that if you would not make pauses between each word and would make your sentences shorter and then pause at the end of the sentence, it would be much more convenient for the interpreter. I do not know whether I am right in that. That is what it looks like. You are pausing between each word and therefore it is difficult, I imagine, to get the sense of the sentence.
THE WITNESS: I beg your pardon, Your Lordship.
BY DR. SERVATIUS:
Q What did you do to fulfill your assingment?
A I will repeat. First, since I had no direct specific instructions I understood my assignment to mean that through economic management I should fill up the gaps and lacks.
Q How many people were you to obtain?
A This question is very difficult to answer. I received the demands only in the course of the war. Labor and economy are a fluid matter, difficult to grasp. I received the assignment in the course of the war in the German labor sector to supply replacements for the Wermacht, with soldiers for the peace potential.
Q You set up a program. What was provided for in the program?
A I set up two programs. At first, when I took up my office, I set up a program which dealt with a levee en masse, so called, of German women and German young people, and, as I already said, economic labor techniques and the full utilization of labor.
Q Was the program accepted? Fuehrer, as was my duty, and to the agencies interested in the commitment of labor.
Q Why? production and economic situation to me. He said that he had nothing against my program, and that he had planned, in view of the situation, that he could not wait for the training of such German women. Ten million German women were employed who at that time had never done indistrial or mechanical work. Furthermore, he could not permit management, as I have said, a mixture of German and foreign workers.
Q One moment. The interpreters cannot translate your long sentences. You must make short sentences; otherwise, no one can understand you, and your defense suffers. for the management of labor.
Q And what did he suggest?
A I asked to be allowed to present this decision of the Fuehrer. He described the situation at that time after the end of the winter of 1941-42. Many hundreds of German locomotives, almost all the mechanical arms, tanks, planes, and mechanical weapons had become useless as a result of the catastrophes during an abnormally hard winter. Hundreds of thousands of German soldier had suffered greatly from the cold; many divisions had lost their arms and supplier was not won, the Soviets would be at the Channel during the next winter. He told me that, referring to my sense of duty and the employment of all my ability, he was giving me the assignment to obtain new workers for commitment in German war industry.
Q Did you have no scruples that this was against international law?
A In regard to this question, the Fuehrer spoke to me in great detail. He explained the necessity so much as a matter of course that after one suggestion which he made himself was rejected, I had no scruples as regards international law against this commitment of foreign workers.
Q You negotiated with other agencies? There were workers within the Reich already? What was told you there?
A No high agency, military or civilian, expressed any misgivings. I may mention some references which the Fuehrer gave me. On the whole, the Fuehrer was very friendly to me; on this question, he was very strict, and said that he had left half the French army free and at home, most of the Belgian army, and the whole Dutch Army had been released from captivity. reasons, in the interests of all of Europe and the Occident, as he expressed himself; only a uniform Europe devoted to work could resist Bolshevism.
Q Did you know the terms of the Hague Land Warfare regulations?
A During the first world war, I was a captured seaman. I knew the necessities for and the chances of, any sort of treatment and shelter for prisoners of war and other prisoners. what you planned with your Arbeitseinsatz was against the Hague Land Warfare regulations?
A No. In France, I discussed questions of the Arbeitseinsatz only with the French Government, through the military commander and through the German ambassador in Paris. As far as labor commitments in France were concerned, I intended to conclude agreements with an orderly French Government. I negotiated with the general secretary in Belgium. Eastern workers. What were you told about them? did not join the Geneva Convention, and so Germany for her part was not bound to it. And I was told further that Soviet Russia, in the Balkan countries and other areas, had planned taking workers from those populations, and that about 3,000,000 Chinese were working in Soviet Russia, Williams
Q And what about Poland? countries, that this was a case of total capitulation, and that Germany on the basis of this capitulation was justified in introducing German regulations. German point of view? which I represented in my field of work and I adhered to. I was a German. wanted to apply, and, as you say, which you carried out in your field? families through this commitment? voluntarily, a separation is something very difficult, that it is very difficult for relatives to be separated from family members. But I also thought of the German families, of the German Soldiers, and of the many, many hundreds of thousands of German workers who also had to go away from home.
occupied territories and that it would not have been necessary to remove the workers? Why was that not done?
A This is an interesting suggestion. If it had been possible, I would have carried cut the suggestion which was made by Funk and other authorities and later even by Speer. It would have made my work much easier. On the other hand, there were big departments in these institutions which had to administer branches of the German economy and fulfill assignments. As the G.B.A. (Plenipotentiary General for Labor Commitment), I could not have them transferred to foreign territories. The authorities demanded from me replacement of agricultural workers and industrial workers. Labor replacements in agriculture and industry were needed because the men had been called to the colors. commitment of workers could have been defended, What were the loading principles of your labor commitment in carrying it out? charged me with bringing foreign workers to Germany, I clearly recognized the difficulties of this task and I asked him to recognize the only way in which I could consider it possible. of these foreign workers?
A Labor commitment has nothing to do with exploitation. Labor commitment is an economic process and is the obtaining of workers. that the best possible economic utilization of these workers was important and speak of a machine which must be treated properly? Did you want to express thereby the thought of economic utilization? in the production of goods only if it commits labor economically -- not too many and not too few. I consider that economical. and other government reports say that one of the aims was the biological destruction of other countries. What do you have to say about that?
mentioned to me. I was happy when I had workers. I felt that the war would last longer than was expected, and the demands upon my agency were so urgent and so big that I was happy when people were alive. workers before you took over? What did you find when you took office?
A There was a controversy when I took office. About two million foreign workers were to be brought from neutral and allied states and occupied territories of the East and the West. They had been brought to the Reich in a disorderly manner. Many concerns avoided using the labor authorities or found them bureaucratic. The conflict of interests, as I said before, was very great. The police point of view was predominant at that time. example ?
A The propaganda was adapted to the war in the East. I may point cut -- you interrupted me before when I was speaking of my assignment by the Fuehrer -- the Fuehrer demanded that workers working in Germany should not be treated as enemies. I demanded this from the Fuehrer and tried to influence the propaganda to that effect. you? gram. This program is here as a document. I must and will bear responsibility for t his program.
DR. SERVATIUS: It has already been submitted. It is a document 16-Sauckel. It is a law for labor commitment of 20 April 1942, US Exhibit 168.
THE PRESIDENT: Where shall we find it. BY DR. SERVATIS:
Q This program contains basicstatements. I will hand it to you. Please comment on the general questions only, not on the individual points.
Q On the last part, there is a section added, "Prisoners of War and Foreign Workers." Have you found the paragraph? "Prisoners of War and Foreign Workers." In the third paragraph will you please look and see what you wanted to explain. ently and worked on it independently. In 1942, after this hard assignment which I was given by the Fuehrer, it was absolutely clear to me under what conditions foreign workers could be employed in Germany. I wrote down these sentences at that time. This program went to all German agencies which dealt with this matter:
"All of these people must be so fed, housed, and treated that with the most trifling commitments imagineable" -- I mean here the economic commitments -- "They can do the greatest possible amount of work. It is a matter of course to all Germans that toward the conquered enemy, even if he was our most bitter enemy, we must avoid all atrocities and all pettiness. We must treat him correctly and humanely even when we expect useful work from him." The word "even" should be "if".
What powers did you have to carry out your assignment? Plan, to issue instructions. I had at my disposal -- not under me, but at my disposal -- Sections 3 and 5 of the Reich Labor Ministry.
Q What department was that?
Q Could you issue directives and orders? agencies. countries? the Foreign Office or after approval of the corresponding ambassador or minister.
consultation? absolutely necessary to discuss questions with neighboring departments, and I was obliged to do so. which you were placed? the assignments, also with the Party Chancellery, with the office of Reich Minister Lammers, the Reich Chancellery, with the Reichsbahn, the Reich Railroad, with the Reich Food Ministry, and so forth.
Q Was that easy, or were there difficulties?
Q Did you have any dealings with Himmler?
A Only in so far as he gave instructions. He was responsible for security, as he said. regard to the treatment of the workers? assignment, I was called to see Heydrich. In a precise and strict way, Heydrich told me that my program, which had been approved by the Fuehrer, should be considered a kind of fantasy, that I should realize that it was fantasy not to have barbed wire and so forth around the labor camps, that this made his work very difficult; I was responsible for labor commitments he was responsible for security. That is what he told me.
Q Were you satisfied with that, that strict police measures existed? as they concerned the workers who my agency and my office put to work in Germany.
Q What was the content of your right to issue instructions? Could you issue orders or did you have to carry on negotiations, or how was this carried out in practice? the beginning because I was forbidden, because of the necessities of war, to establish any new office or organization of my own.
I could give instructions only after negotiation with the supreme Reich authorities and consultation. They were, of course, purely of a business nature. I could not intervene in the administration. authorities in the occupied territories?
A It was exactly the same, of a business nature. In practice, it was the chance to pass on the Fuehrer Orders which were carried out there in the machinery of the administration.
had to be followed, to the Economic Inspectorate East, for example? operational areas, only the military commanders were competent, and everything had to be regulated through those agencies. give orders directly there? the military commander the instructions which I myself had received. He then consulted with the German Embassy and prepared thorn for the French Government, so that in charge of the ambassador, and with the participation of the military commander, the discussion with the French Government took place.
Q And what about the Ministry for the Occupied Eastern Territories? situation was such that I had to turn over my assignment to the Reich Minister for the Occupied Eastern Territories and discuss it with him. We always succeeded in reaching an agreement with Reich Minister Rosenberg and in settling matters in a way that we considered right. But in the Ukraine particularly, the East, the Reich Commissar had very close relationships to headquarters, and it is generally known he acted very independently. took up your activities? taking up my work, because I brought new assignments, new necessities, into these territories, and it was not always easy to reconcile the various interests. of the district? but there were many selfish interests at work there.
Nov I should like to ask you: You had deputies for the labor commitment. When did you obtain them?
personal decree of the Fuehrer, as I recall, of the 30th of September 1942.
Q What was the occasion? difficulties and the disorganization in these areas, and to dispose of them.
DR. SERVATIUS: I refer in this connection to Document 12, the Fuehrer Decree. The execution of the decree on the Deputy General for Labor Comitments is Document 13. The decree on the appointment of deputies is on page 13 of the document book. Document 12 has already been submitted as 1903-PS, U.S. Exhibit 206. BY DR. SERVATIUS: deputies previously? who in allied or neutral countries were assigned to the German ambassador. The are to be distinguished from these deputies who were assigned to the chiefs of the German military or civilian administration in the occupied territories.
Q What position All the deputies hold in the occupied Territories?
A In the Occupied Territories, the deputies had a dual position. They were the leaders of the labor sections or in the local government there, which made my work more difficult and at the same time, there were deputies for me in order to carry out the principles of labor commitments if I had established then uniformly. organization of the district government?
A I did not have my organization of my own. The district governments were completely closed and administrations headed by the administration chief under whom the various departments took place.
Q How many such deputies were there in one district? each.
Q What was the task of the deputy? execution of German orders, to guarantee the legality and in their field of work as members of the local a administration, to deal with labor questions which came up there. of labor in local commitments and in the Reich? in the treatment, feeding, and so forth, of workers were observed.
Q Did you not have your own recruiting commission? in our own documents. It is a question of reinforcement by exports which were demanded by the district government in order to carry out the tasks in the countries in question.
Q What instructions did these recruiting commissions have? regulations and in my orders, which I therefore need not mention.
Q I refer here to document 15. It has already been submitted--3044-PS. US 206 and also as USSR 384. That is a decisive order No 4 of the 7th of May 1942. This settles in principle all important questions, also in regard to the deputies circulars and the recruitment directives given.
Q Were these directives, issued by you, always adhered to? that I demanded. I made ever effort through constant instructions and threat of punishments which I, however, could not impose.
Q Were these orders so seriously meant? The French prosecution has submited a government report, one of your speeches which you had made at the time in Posen. It was a speech of apology. I ask you, were these principles meant seriously or only for appear once; and you. yourself. believed that it was impossible? diffcult conditions and those instructions express my full conviction on the necessity of these instructions.
Q Was there opposition to your principles? German security by many authorities, Aside from a number of instructions to German Gauleiters, I issued a manifesto to all German government agencies in question.
Dr. SERVATIUS: May I remark that is document S-84, in document book 3, page 15, I will submit the document once more in German, in which form it was printed. It is in an urgent warning form and was sent to all agencies.
THE PRESIDENT: Is it document No. 84?
DR. SERVATIUS: Yes.
THE WITNESS: On the question of the Central Planning Board, I should like to be allowed to say a word in regard to this manifesto. When I issued this manifesto, I encountered primarily from Dr. Goebbels the objection that a manifesto could really be issued only by the Fuehrer and not by a subordinate agency such as mine. Then I observed that there were difficulties in having the manifesto printed; after I had one hundred fifty thousand for all German economic agencies, for all war leaders, for all interested agencies printed, I again in this clear form had it printed with a corresponding accompanying letter and sent it once more to all these agencies. In this manifesto, in spite of the difficulties which I encountered, I especially advocated that in the Occupied Territories themselves, the workers should be treated according to my principles and according to my directives and orders. I ask permission of the Court to be allowed to read a few sentences from it.
"I therefore order that for all occupied territories for the treatment, feeding, billeting and paying of foreign workers, appropriate regulations and directives be issued similar to those valid for foreigners in the Reich. They are to be adjusted to the respective local conditions and applied according to their meaning. In a number of the Eastern Territories, native civilian men and women workers working for German war industry or parts of the German Wehrmacht, are undernourished. It is in the urgent interest of German war industry in this territory to remove this condition which interfere with reduction and is dangerous. An endeavor must therefore be made with all means available that additional food for these workers and their families is provided. Only through the good care and treatment of the whole available European labor capacity and through organizing it and through their strict organization, leadership and direction, a fluctuation of the labor powers in the Reich and in the Occupied Territories can be limited to a minimum and only then can a stable and reliable output be achieved."
May I read one more sentence: "The foreign workers in the Reich and the population in the Occupied Territories who are being used for the German war effort must be given the feeling that it is in their own interest to work loyally for Germany and that they find their only life insurance therein."
THE PRESIDENT: I think we better not go further in this document. Can you indicate to us at all how long you are likely to be with this defendant?
DR. SERVATIUS: Tomorrow, I will probably need the whole day. 23-1 Daniels
THE PRESIDENT: Mr. Dodd, would it be convenient for you some time to deal with the documents of the remaining defendants?
Mr. DODD: Yes, Mr. President, any time that you might set aside.
THE PRESIDENT: Well, you know how far the negotiations and agreements have gone with reference to documents.
MR. DODD: I do as to some, but not all. I can ascertain the facts tonight, or before the morning session, and advise you at that time.
THE PRESIDENT: Yes, and you will let us know tomorrow what time will be convenient?
MR. DODD: Yes, sir.
THE PRESIDENT: The Tribunal will adjourn.
(The Tribunal adjourned until 29 May 1946, at 1000 hours.)
on 29 May 1946, 1000-1700. Lord Justice
THE PRESIDENT: The Tribunal will adjourn this afternoon at 4 o'clock' in order to sit in closed session.
MR. DODD: (of the American Prosecution): Mr. President, the day before yesterday the Tribunal asked if we would ascertain whether or not Document D-830 had been offered in evidence. It consisted of extracts from the testimony of Admiral Raeder and we have ascertained that it was offered, and it is GB-463, It was put to a witness by Mr. Elwyn Jones in the course of cros examination, and it has been offered in evidence.
THE PRESIDENT: Thank you.
MR. DODD: Also, with respect to the Court's inquiry concerning the status of other Defendants and their documents, we are able to say this morn ing that with respect to the Defendant Jodl, the documents are now being translated and mimeographed and there is no need for any hearing before the Tribunal. and mimeographed.
The von Papen documents are settled; there is no disagreement between the Prosecution and the Defendant von Papen. And they are in the process of being mimeographed and translated. any hearing, and I expect that by the end of today they will be sent to the translating and mimeographing department. by the Defendant to the Prosecution.
Kerrl speaks and says:
"During that entire period, you have brought a large number of Frenchmen to the Reich by voluntary recruitment."
There is an interruption by Sauckel:
"Also by forced recruitment."
The speaker continues:
"Forces recruitment started when voluntary recruitment did not bring sufficient numbers.
Now comes the remark to which I want you to speak. You answered:
"Of the five millions of foreign workers who came to Germany, less than 200,000 came voluntarily."
Would you care to explain that contradiction? regarding the opinion of Mr. Kerrl, that all workers had come voluntarily, that that was not correct. That proportion of figures which is marked down here by the stenographer or the man in charge of the records is quite impossible. How that error occurred, I do not know. I have never seen the minutes. Concerning that also, the witness Timm and others can make statements.
DR. SERVATIUS: I am referring here to Document S-15, that is, Directive No.4 which has been quoted already, which deals with the recruitment measures in detail and various regulations. It has already been submitted as 3044-PS. BY DR. SERVATIUS: voluntary recruitment? very considerable actions. The need for manpower in Germany, on the other hand, had become tremendous. During that period, on the part of the French, the Belgians and the Dutch, the demand was put to me, in order to bring about a better balance of economy in these territories, that we should proceed to a labor draft so that the pressure from the opponents would be alleviated and the Dutch and Belgians and French themselves should have the possibility of stating that they did not go to Germany voluntarily, but on account of the labor draft and on account of the law.