Q Did you have anything to do with the HJ before? Vienna, did you not?
Q In what capacity did you go to Vienna?
A I went there as von Schirach's adjutant.
Q And what were your duties mostly? ing to it that files were presented on time at conferences, preparations for journeys and carrying out journeys, and all that sort of thing. or for the Gauleiter, or did you act for him as Mayor? preters can catch up.
Q Did you also know or see the secret files? First of all, I am interested in this, Who was responsible for the sending of Jews out of Vienna? the RSHA. The representative in Vienna was a certain Dr. Brunner, an Obersturm fuehrer in the SS.
Q Did you have anything to di officially with this Dr. Brunner in the matter of the transport of Jews, and on what occasions? would make written applications to von Schirach to be left out of the transport In such cased Schirach, through the Chief of his Central Department, would have representations made to Dr. Brunner's office so as to fulfill the request of the applicant. I would say that generally this was done by the Chief of the Central Department. I remember two cases where I myself received instructions to visit Dr. Brunner -- not to write to him, not to telephone him, but to go and see his personally.
Q And what did SS Obersturmfuehrer Dr. Brunner tell you about the actu plans which had been made for the Jews when they were taken away from Vienna?
A Dr. Brunner only told me, on the occasion of one of these two interventions, that the action of resettling Jews would be a resettlement from the district of Vienna into the zone of the former Government General.
He also tol me in what way this was being carried out. For instance he said that for women and small children there were principally second-class carriages; that suffici rations for the journey and milk for small children would be provided. He also told me that these resettled persons upon arrival at their destination and pro vided that they could work, would immediately be put to work. He said that, first of all, they would be put into assembly camps, but that as soon as accommodations were available they would be given living accommodations of their own, and all such matters. He also told me that because of the numerous interventions caused by Schirach, his work had been made very difficult. way from acting on behalf of Jews, and did you discuss that order with von Schirach? the beginning of 1941, which we received in ritting. It stated that "because of reasons which exist, we once more point out", and so forth. That seemed to indicate that it was a repetition of an order which had already been given. The content of the order was that because of some episode or incident, Gauleiters were prohibited from acting on behalf of the Jews in the future.
Q Did you talk about that with Schirach?
A I did; I talked to him about it.
Q What did he say? it put into the files. He didn't actually say anything about it.
Q I have another question, witness. The defendant von Schirach once were to the concentration camp at Mauthousen. Can you tell us then that was?
A I cannot tell you exactly. All I can say on that subject is that when I came back from the front -- and this was either in the autumn of 1942 or in June of 1943-- the adjutant who was on duty at the time told me that he had accompained Herr von Schirach to a concentration camp, which was Mauthausen. Some time afterwards -- which means that it must have been when I came back from the front for the second time, at the end of 1943 -- Herr von Schirach told me that that he had been to Mauthausen.
I only recollect that he said that he had heart a symphony concert there.
Q Well, we are not interested in that, we have heard it. I am only interested in one thing: Did he later on, visit Mauthausen or another concentration camp again? Can you give us reliable information on that?
A. I can give you reliable information on that. That is quite out of the question because from November, '43, until the collapse I was continuously on duty and I knew, therefore, where von Schirach would be.
Q. Did he go to Mauthausen again in 1944?
A. No.
Q. Are you sure?
A. Out of the question.
Q. Witness, you remember that towards the end of the war there were orders coming from some source of other stating that enemy aviators who had been forced to land were no longer to be protected. Do you know of that?
A. Yes.
Q. Do you know that there were such orders?
A. Yes.
Q. What was the attitude of Defendant von Shirach regarding such orders and how do you know about it?
A. I have talked about those orders with Herr von Shirach. The idear contained therein were always turned down by con Shirach and he always said that such aviators, too, were to be treated as prisoners of war. Once he said: "If we don't do that, then there is the danger that our enemies too will treat their prisoners, that is Germans, in the same manner."
Q. Have you experienced cases yourself where Defendant von Shirach was actually taking care of enemy flyers in that way?
A. Yes.
Q. Will you please tell us about it?
A. During one of the last air attacks on Vienna, in March, 1945, an American aircraft was shot down and crashed near the headquarters of the Gauleiter's office. That Command Post was on a wooded hill in Vienna which was used by part of the population to go to during air attacks. Von Shirach was watching from some ireon structure which was 96 feet high, on which he would always stand during air attacks, and he observed that a member of the American crew got out of the aircraft. He immediately ordered the Commander in charge of this Command Post to go to the place of the crash by car so as to protect the American soldier against the crowd and bring him to safety.
The American soldier was brought to the Command Post and after the air attack he was handed over to the Air Force Command.
Q. Then did you leave Vienna?
A. I left Vienna, together with von Shirach, on the 13th of April, 1945.
Q. And you were together with Defendant von Shirach?
A. Yes, together with Herr von Shirach.
Q. Now this is my last question I have to put to you. Have you ever heard from Shirach's lips anything which would indicate that Vienna would have to be held to the last man under any circumstances or that destruction should be carried out in the town of Vienna?
A. I have heard him say neither one nor the other at any time.
DR. SAUTER: Mr. President, I have no further questions to this witness.
DR. SERVATIUS: Counsel Servatius for Sauckel. BY DR. SERVATIUS:
Q. Witness, do you know the Prater in Vienna?
A. Yes, of course; I an Viennese.
Q. What sort of an institution is that?
A. The Prater is, or at least was, a place of pleasure.
Q. Was it closed during the war?
A. The Prater was not closed during the war.
Q. What sort of people used to go there?
A. During the war you mean?
Q. Yes.
A. Workers, employees, civil servants generally; all Viennese. All people who were in Vienna.
Q. Did you see foriegn workers there?
A. Yes.
Q. A great many or just a few?
A. The situation in Vienna was that one used to say that if you want to go to the Prater then you have to be able to speak French and Russian, because with Viennese alone you can't got along. The Prater was overcrowded with foreign civil workers.
Q. How were these foreigners dressed, badly or well?
A., There foreigners were well dressed, so that you couldn't distinguish them from the population. Only when they talked could you recognize that the were foreigners.
Q. How did they look generally? Were they well fed, did they look starved?
A. As far as I myself have observed, the workers looked perfectly well fed.
Q. Did they seem to have money?
A. They had lots of money. It was known that the black market in Vienna was almost entirely dominated by foreign workers.
Q. Was that only the case in the Prater or was it the same in the whole town, that you could see these foreigners like that?
A. It wasn't only the situation in the Prater. It was generally the case in the town. In cafes, of which there are many in Vienna, in hotels, restaurants.
DR.SERVATIUS: I have no further questions. BY MR. DODD:
Q. Who, besides the Defendant von Shirach, do you know of these defendants And by "know" I mean know person ally or have some acquaintanceship with the or had something to do with the?
A. Personally, I only know Herr Funk.
Q. Do you know Sauckel?
A. Yes.
Q. Well, who else?
A. I know Mr. Seyss-Inquart, but I didn't have any personal dealings with him. I was adjutant of von Shirach.
Q. How do you know Funk?
A. I was invited by Mr. Funk a few times. Officially, as adjutant of Herr von Shirach, I had some dealings with him and beyond that, he invite me a few times.
Q. Were you in the SS at that time, when you were invited by Funk?
A. During that time I was in the Waffen SS.
Q. By the way, when did you first join the SS?
A. I joined the Waffen SS on the 26th of June, 1940.
Q. Were you in any other branch of the SS besides the Waffen SS?
A. I was in the Allgemeine at the General SS
Q. When did you koin the Allegeine or General SS?
A. In June, 1939, June or July, 1939.
Q. So you were actually in the SS from as far back as 1939?
A. In the General SS, yes.
Q. How you also became an SS Obersturmfuehrer at one time, did you not?
A. I became Obersturmfuehrer about the 21st of June, 1944.
Q. When did you join the SA?
A. I joined the SA on the 9th of May, 1932.
Q. Did you know the Came Strasshoff, S-t-r-a-s-s-h-o-f-f-?
A. This is the first time I am hearing that name.
Q. Well, that may have been mispronounced. It was a camp located outside of Vienna.
A. I can't think what that camp might be. I understood Strasshoff?
Q. Yes, something like that. You never heard of that camp?
A. Never.
Q. And you were in Vienna from what? -- 19 -
A. I was born in Vienna.
Q. Well, I know you were, but I am talking about your service with the Defendant Shirach. You were there with him for how long?
A. From the beginning of October, 1940.
Q. And you never heard of Strasshoff?
A. No.
Q. Did you have much to do with the files of this Defendant, von Shira
A. Yes.
Q. What would you say you had to do with them? What was your responsi bility?
A. I merely had to see to it that files were prepared in good time when they were used during conferences and that after they had been used they were returned to the central department.
Q. Where would you go to get a file for von Shirach that had to do with the Reich's Defense Commission for that district or that defense district? Where would you go to got a file that had to do with matters concerning the Reich's Defense Commission? Let me make it clear to you. Say that von Shirach tell you he wants a file about a certain matter that has to do with the Reich Defense Commission, that you would have to have it on his desk by a certain hour and see that it was ther, as you say. Tell the Tribunal just what you would do, where you would go, who you would talk to, and how you would get that for him?
A. That would be simple for me. I would address the Chief of the Central Department and I should know that he would probably have to go to the Govern ment President to obtain that file. That is what I assume. I myself would have gone as far as the Central Department.
Q. You had a central filing place, didn't you, for all of your files, whether they were under the Reich's Defense Commission or the Gauleiter or the civil government of Vienna, isn't that so? They were all kept in one place?
A. They were not all together in one place; only some files were in the Central Department. I can't tell you which part because I have never had anything to do with that.
Q. You left Vienna on the 13th of April, you say, with von Shirach?
A. Yes.
Q. I suppose, as his adjutant, for some days previously there was considerable preparation for leaving, was there?
A. Yes.
Q. What did you pack up; what did yo take with you?
A. We didn't take anything with us from Vienna. Von Shirach was going car and there were two or three other cars used by the gentlemen of his entourage. Nothing else was taken along from Vienna.
Q. Well, what did you do in the office; how did you leave that?
A. I think it was since the spring or the early summer of '44 that we were no longer in that office because the building of the town governor had had a direct hit and von Shirach could no longer work there. He was working in his flat.
Q In his what?
Q In his apartment. And id he have all of his files in his apartment or somewhere near at hand?
A He had no files whatever in his apartment. They remained in the office, in that part of the Reichstag government building which was still being used and in which one could still work. government when you left Vienna, or before you left Vienna?
A I do not know that. I know that an order existed both for the state administration as well as the party that files be destroyed when the enemy approached. Whether that was actually done or what in fact would happen with the files I don't knew
Q Who got that order?
A Please, would you be good enough to repeat your question? order to destroy the files. the deputy gauleiter and as far as the state administration is concerned to the government president. of security some time in the spring or late winter of 1945? salt mine ourside of Vienna? Do you know anything about that?
A No. I hear that for the first time. quite a whole, I gather.
A No. It isn't -- if I may be permitted to put this matter tight, it is near Salzburg, and we were never living there. I know that this mine exists.
Q How far is it from Vienna?
Q You don't know anything about any files being taken there. You are sure about that, are you?
A I am absolutely certain that I don't know anything of that.
Q I have just one other question to ask. I suppose you knew the defendant pretty well. He is a littler older than you but you had worked for him for some time. Isn't that so?
Q Why didn't you join the Army instead of the SS when you wanted to do something for your country? elite unit and I would rather serve in such an elite unit than the general armed forces.
Q Was it the fact that you had been in the general SS since 1939?
A No. That had nothing to do with it. Numerous members of the general SS went to the Army. before you joined the army in 1939 and the Waffen SS later on?
A No. And perhaps I may remind you that I did not join von Schirach until October '40, whereas, I joined the Waffen SS on the 26th of June, 1940. the youth organization when you joined the SS. Isn't that a fact? Weren't you a part of the youth organization in '39?
A No. I was not taken over by the youth leaders offices until April 1944 when I became "bannfuehrer". Before that I had no contact.
Q Well, I don't think you understand me. It isn't too important, but how old were you in 1939? You were 24, approximately, weren't you?
Q And weren't you then in some way affiliated with the Hitler Youth or the youth organization in Germany, either as a member or having something to do with it?
A No. Neither as a member nor in any other way. Of course I knew youth leaders, yes.
Q You were quite a speech-maker for the Party, weren't you, during your lifetime?
A In Corinthia, during the years of April '38 until May 1940, I spoke before several meetings.
two years?
Q And an average of about what, 2,000 or 3,000 persons per meeting?
A I also spoke in very small villages. I would say that the average figure would be about 200.
MR. DODD: That is all I have.
THE PRESIDENT: Do you want to re-examine?
DR. THOMA: Counsel for Rosenberg. BY DR. THOMA:
Q What were the subjects you talked about in these meetings? They were always such that every speaker would have the possibility to speak about general matters. For instance, the subject might have been "With the Fuehrer to Final Victory" or "Why Welfare for the Nation" or "Why Winter Work."
Such subjects were the ones we got.
Q Did you spread Rosenberg's Mythology of the 20th Century?
Q Did you speak about such subjects?
A No. Because of my education I wouldn't be in position to do so.
Q Have you ever read this Mythology?
A I haven't read it.
Q Did you speak before youngsters during these meetings; did you speak before youngsters?
A Before youth in particular, no, I didn't speak.
DR. THOMA: Thank you.
DR. SAUTER: Mr. President, I do not wish to put any more questions to the witness. BY MR. BIDDLE: Jews being deported from Vienna?
Q How many times did he intervene? Schirach did not intervene. inaccurate. It is very difficult.
Q Did he intervene many times, or few?
A No. Often.
Q Did you see the order to the police not to protect aviators? You said it was in writing, didn't you?
Q Who signed it?
Q And was it distributed to the police in Vienna? gauleiters might not act on behalf of Jews.
crashed. You said you saw that order, didn't you?
A I did see the order, yes. I do not remember however, who it came from and to whom it was addressed. As far as our office was concerned it was merely sent to us for our information. As far as we were concerned we hadn't any steps we should have to take.
Q Don't you know whether or not the police had a copy of it.
A Please, will you be good enough to repeat the question? the order?
A That I don't know.
Q Did you ever know Himmler?
Q Did he give you any instructions?
Q Did you get any instructions from the SS?
A In which way do you mean? ach's office?
Q Not at all?
A None at all. I cannot recollect any. aviators from the crowd, did you not? Don't you understand?
A Yes, yes, I understand and I did say that, that's right. from the crowd? Did he make any other efforts? police?
Q I didn't ask you the opinion. Did he issue any orders to the police or talk to the police?
Q Well, you would know if he had, would you not? it, but it is quite possible that he talked when I wasn't there.
Q Did you say you had access to the secret files?
Q What was kept in the secret files?
A I didn't understand that question, I am afraid.
Q I asked you what was put in the secret files, what sort of papers? quarters, secret files which came from the Minister of the Interior; in other words, things were in them which made one wonder why they were called secret. But as far as details of these files are concerned, I cannot, of course, today remember them. be put in those secret files, would they not? the top down to us? department. not?
A SS secret reports didn't come to us, because we weren't a service department of the SS.
(There were no further questions from Mr. Biddle).
THE PRESIDENT: If you have no questions yourself, Dr. Sauter, then witness may retire.
DR. SAUTER: Very well.
(The witness, Fritz Wieshofer, left the witness-stand).
Now, Mr. President, in Schirach's document book there are a few documents, which up to now have not expressly been presented, but I believe that this isn't necessary, that I should read these documents to you; and with reference to the question of saving time, if I may, I should like to refer to the documents and ask you to take judicial notice of them.
So, for instance, the affidavit of Mrs. Hoepken which has No. 3 in the document book, and which has already been read somewhere else.
There is only one document, Mr. President, as to which I want to give one very brief explanation. In the document book, under No. 118A, there is Colin Ross's farewell letter. It is 118A in Schirach's document book. With reference to this Dr. Colin Ross, when the documents were printed the Prosecutor has said that the body of Dr. Ross had not been discovered. At the first moment that surprised me somwehat and I made inquiries as to what actually had been done with these bodies -- that of Dr. Ross and his wife; and I discovered that in fact on the 30th of April, 1945, the day before the arrival of American troops, Dr. Colin Ross's body and that of his wife were found in the house of Defendant von Schirach, at Urfeld, on Lake Walchen. They had both first of all taken poison and then, to be quite sure, Dr. Ross shot his wife and then himself. German soldiers who were at Urfeld on Lake Walchen at the time then buried the bodies immediately next to the house of the Defendant von Schirach. be transferred to the cemetery, but eventually he rescinded that order and permitted the bodies to remain where they had originally been buried.
THE PRESIDENT: Dr. Sauter, can you indicate in what way you will submit this document has any relevance at all? We have read the document. It doesn't appear to have any striking relevance.
DR. SAUTER: Mr. President, we have presented that document because it is to prove or at least speak for it, that the Defendant von Schirach together with this Dr. Colin Ross did continuously work to maintain peace and later on to limit the war. Therefore, it is presented only because of the peace efforts of von Schirach.
THE PRESIDENT: The document doesn't mention von Schirach or in any way indicate that he had worked for peace, so far as I can see.
DR. SAUTER: But it says in the document, "We have done everything in our power to prevent this war and to terminate it."
THE PRESIDENT: Dr. Sauter, the word "we" must mean the people who "leave the world by our own will," namely, Dr. Ross and his wife. It doesn't refer to von Schirach.
DR. SAUTER: We don't know that. Why shouldn't it refer to von Schirach?
THE PRESIDENT: Because there is such a thing as grammar. The documents beggin "We leave this world by our own will,"
DR. SAUTER: As to that, Mr. President, may I remind you that htis name, Dr. Colin Ross, has been mentioned very often during this trial in connection with the peace efforts of the Defendant von Schirach and that Dr. Colin Ross, together with his wife, was living in Schirach's apartment when they committed suicide.
THE PRESIDENT: Well, very well, Dr. Sauter, if you wish to draw our attention to it, you may do so.
DR. SAUTER: Yes, certainly, sir.
Mr. President, this letter as such wasn't meant for the public; the latter in its original form was left behind by Dr. Ross, whilst a number of copies want to personal friends, and in that way we actually found this Dr. Colin Ross later. I don't think there is anything else I have to say on it.
THE PRESIDENT: I haven't said anything critical about the letter. If you wish to read some sentences, you may read them; if you don't, we will take judicial notice of it. As I told you, we have already read the letter.
DR. SAUTER.: Yes.
THE PRESIDENT: I am not stopping your reading a sentence of it, if you want to.
DR. SAUTER: I don't suppose that is necessary, Mr. President, if you have taken cognizance of it, and in that case I have nothing else to say, and I can end my case for the Defendant von Schirach.
THE PRESIDENT: Dr. Sauter, have you offered in evidence all the documents which are in these books?
DR. SAUTER: Yes.
THE PRESIDENT: Then they will be numbered with the numbers which are in the books.
DR. SAUTER: Yes.
THE PRESIDENT: very well, then we will take judicial notice of them all -
DR. DODD: There is one letter, however, that the Tribunal expressly ruled on the affidavit of Ueberrither. Defendant von Schirach was told he would have to present Ueberreither if he Were to use this affidavit. He hasn't presented him, and the affidavit is being offered. He expressly asked that he be called here if this affidavit is being submitted.
DR. SAUTER: I am not making any references to Ueberreither's affidavit, and as far as the witness Ueberreither is concerned, I do not wish to call him.
THE PRESIDENT: Very well, Dr. Sauter.
MR. DODD: Then the affidavit is not offered.
THE PRESIDENT: No, it is not.
MR. DODD: That is page 135. Very well, then it will not be admitted.
THE PRESIDENT: And we will adjourn now.
(A recess was taken until 1400. hours.)
(The hearing reconvened at 1400 hours, 28 May 1945)
MR DODD: Dr. President, during the Presentation of the case involving the defendant Funk, there was a number of documents that we did not submit in evidence at the time; and I asked the Tribunal's consent to do so at a later time. I am prepared to do so now if the Tribunal would care to have me.
THE PRESIDENT: Yes, I think it would be quite convenient now.
MR. DODD: Very well, sir.
The first one is a matter of clarifying the record with respect to it. It is Document 2823-PS. It has already been offered in evidence as USA exhibit 654. But the excerpt, or the extract, which was read will be found on Page 105 of the docment. We cited another page which was in error. Reference to this document, USA. Exhibit 654, will be found on Page 9071 of the record.
We also offered our document E.C.440, which consisted of a statement made by the defendant Funk, and we quoted a sentence from Page 4 of that document. I wish to offer that as USA Exhibit 874. 19, 1945. We wish to offer that as USA, Exhibit 875. had to do with the statement made by Funk that the defendant Hess had notified him of the impending attack on the Soviet Union. That excerpt has been translated int the four languages, and therefore will be reality available to the Tribunal.
Then there is also another interrogation dated the 22nd of October, 1945. We read from Pages 15 and 16 of that interrogation, an it appears in the record on Page 9169 for May 7th, The document is No. 3953-PS; we offer it as USA Exhibit 87 We next referred to Document No. 3894-PS , the interrogation of one Hans Poss We offered it as USA Exhibit No 843 at the time, as appears on Page 9093 of the record for May 6th.
At that time, I stated to the Tribunal that we would submit the whole interrogation in the French, Russian, German, and English. We are now prepared to do that, and do so.
Then we have document 3954-PS. This is an affidavit by one Franz B.Wolf, one of the editors of the Frankfurter Zeitung. Reference to it will be found at Page 9082 of the transcript, where we stated that we would have no more to say about the reason for the retention of the editorial staff of the Frankfurter Zeitung.