Q Of the SA? defendant von Schirach had in Vienna, the Regierungspresident, the Deputy Gauleiter, and the mayor, were all SS Fuehrers?
Q How does that happen? Did the defendant von Schirach select these men himself, or how do you explain the fact that all of his three representatives were SS Fuehrers?
A The Deputy Gauleiter, Scharizer, was an honorary SS Fuehrer. As far as I recall, he was Oberbefehlsleiter of the party. When von Schirach came to Vienna, Scharizer had already been occupied several years as Deputy Gauleiter.
I do not know when the Regierungspresident, Dr. Dellbruegge, came to Vienna; but I assume either before or else at the same time as von Schirach. Moreover, the Regierungspresidents were appointed by the Ministry of the Interior; so von Schirach could hardly have had any influence to refuse or select a particular Regierungspresident.
As for the mayor, the situation was similar. He was SS Brigadefuehrer Blaschke; he was also appointed by the Ministry of the Interior.
Q By the Ministry of the Interior?
Q When was that? of the defendant von Schirach, was employed in Vienna as a state counsellor, and I believe also as vice-mayor?
A He was state counsellor before; and I believe he was vice mayor, but before I came to Vienna.
opposed the SS official being appointed mayor of Vienna? of a year, and I believe later he did not let the Ministry of the Interior issue a final confirmation as mayor. to the SS and to the SS officers? Was it especially friendly or cordial? What was it? as officially necessary and no more.
Q Was he friendly with SS men?
Q Did he not express to you his attitude toward the SS? under a certain supervision, and for that reason he was rather distrustful.
Q Distrustful? on foreign press reports? They were excerpts which the propaganda Ministry, in collaboration with the Reich Press Chief, Dr. Dietrich, issued. As far as I know, however, they were selected and screened.
Q Did you live for a long time with von Schirach in Vienna?
A From 1944 on I lived in Schirach's house.
Q You took your meals with him? foreign radio?
A No, I do not believe so. With me and a few other co-workers, after every meal he listened to the official German news services. Besides, if he had done so, according to my opinion, it would have become known very soon. He was of the opinion that he was being-
THE PRESIDENT: The witness can only tell us what he know. How could he know whether von Schirach ever listened to any foreign news?
If he does not know, why do you not take him on to something else?
DR. SAUTER: The witness said, Mr. President, that in the letter Vienna period, since the spring of 1944 I believe he said, he lived in the house of the defendant Schirach.
THE PRESIDENT: He said that, and he said that he did not think he heard foreign news. What more can he give? What more evidence can he give on that subject?
DR. SAUTER: I wanted to hear that, Mr. President.
THE PRESIDENT: But he said it already. I have taken it down. Why do you not go on to something else? BY DR. SAUTER: order came to Vienna from Berlin, according to which all defeatists, whether men or women, were to be hanged? What attitude did Schirach take on this order? purpose of speedily condemning people who objected to the management of the war or who showed themselves to be defeatists. This court martial was set up in Vienna or appointed, rather, but it did not meet once, and it did not pronounce any judgments. proceedings at all?
THE PRESIDENT: That fact, again, was given in evidence by von Schirach and was not cross examined to -- that that court martial did not meet. BY DR. SAUTER: weeks an order came for combat partisan formations in civilian clothes, and what was von Schirach's attitude to that?
that a "Freikorps Hitler" was to be set up. They were to be in civilian clothes. Schirach ordered that no people from the Reichsgau Vienna were to be assigned to this Freikorps.
Q Why not? Secondly, because he considered it contrary to international law.
Q My last question: You were with Schirach to the last, until he left Vienna? residential quarters, and so forth?
A No, I do not know of that. Orders to blow up bridges or for any defense measures were given only by the military authorities, as far as I knew.
Q But not by Schirach?
DR. SAUTER: Mr. President,I have no more questions to put to this witness.
THE PRESIDENT: Does any other Defendant's Counsel want to ask questions?
(no response)
THE PRESIDENT: The Prosecution? BY MR. DODD:
Q Mr. Witness, would you see all of the files of Von Schirach's office during the time that you were his adjutant? of the mail went through the Central Bureau. you if you can tell us whether or not you have seen this before. Have you ever seen that documentbefore?
dated 28 May 1942, at which time I was an officer in the Luftwaffe.
A Well, then, you didn't mean the Tribunal to understand that you were familiar with everything that was in von Schirach's files, because certainly this document was there during the years that you were his adjutant, but you never saw it. It is marked Central Bureau, and you had charge of these very files, yet you never saw this teletype to Bormann, so you certainly didn't knew everything that was in his files, did you? of course, since I was not in Vienna atthis timebut only went to Vienna in April, 1943, I did not look up all the documents and letters in the file of the Reich Governor. That would have taken years.
THE PRESIDENT: A translation just came through to me that you went to Vienna in April 1942. Is that right?
A THE INTERPRETER: April, 1943. BY MR. DODD?
Q Let me ask you something else. You were there in the last days, I assume, when the city was taken by the Allied Forces, were you?
Q What was done withSchirach's files when the end was very obviously coming? What did you do with all those files over which you had control?
A I was not in charge of any files. I was chief of the bureau. office where these files were kept. What did you do with the files?
Q Do you know what became of the files? fore the city was captured; don't you know that?
A No, I don't know that.
Q Were the files therethe last day that you were there?
Q I don't want a "probably". I want to know if you know and if you do, to tell us. Were they there or not the last day that you were in the office?
Q I didn't ask you if you gave orders. I asked you if you know what became of them and whether or not they were in the office the last day you were there?
A I do not know what happened to them. whether they were still there on the last day I cannot say.
Q Don't you know that they were all moved to a salt mine in Austria?
A No, I don't know that. office and were later found by the Allied Forces in a salt mine?
A No, I don't know that.
Q I don't mean that you heard they were found there, but you certainly knew that they were taken out of the office?
A No, I don't know, I gave no orders. give an explanation to the Tribunal. This document that I have just shown to you and these reports that you examined for Dr.Sauter were all found in Schirach's files in a salt mine. Would you have any explanation for that?
Q They were found together. Would that mean anything to you, or would you have any explanation for it? Reich Governor's office or one of his official who was in charge of these things gave the order to that effect, without my knowledge, without any order from me. Vienna or the last day that you were in this office.
Q When was the city taken?
It finally fell Into the hands of the Ailles on 16 April.
Q Did you as leave your office on the third or fourth of April? Did von Shirach leave as well, and did all the several force and so and on Schirach had previously act up his office at his home and was working there.
Q Had he taken any files there from his office to his home?
A Only what he needed immediately to carry on his business; that the matters which were being worked on at themoment. there, you and von Schirach on the third or fourth of April, and if you did, who was it that you left in charge?
A I did not leave any One in charge. The officials did that on their own accord. the Tribunal--whether or not you just walked out of the office and left everything there, or whether you and von Schirach left and left other people there, or Whether the place was in such a chaos that nobody remained. I haven't any accurate picture of it, and I think it is of some importance. You ought to be able to tell us. You left there with him. The city was practically ready to be taken in another ten days. It was under siege. what were you doing about your files and all of your other papers in your office when you walked out of there? You certainly just didn't walk out and not give some directions. The Central Bureau, of which I was in charge for the last few months, had no powers, no executive powers, but all of these things were done by the competent Reich Government officials.
Q I don't need any explanation of how your office was set up. I want to know if the papers where left there or not, or if anybody was l eft with them. officials were charged to take care of them. third or fourth of April, anything at all?
Q Did anybody order anything destroyed, whether you did or not?
MR. DODD: I have no further questions.
THE PRESIDENT: what is the document you put to him?
MR. DODD: No. USA 865. It is Document 3877-PS, a teletype to Bormann from von Schirach on the 28th day of May 1942.
THE PRESIDENT: US A what?
MR. DODD USA 865.
THE PRESIDENT: Do you want to reexamine the witness, Dr. Sauter? BY DR. SAUTER: (Counsel for the defendant von Schirach): you. The documents of the Reich Governor's office apparently are supposed to have been found in a salt mine. Were you in charge of the documents of the Reich Governor's office at all?
A No, I had no supervision over these documents. I just explained that. For that reason, I could not give any order to remove them. I know only that valuable pictures and so on were removed, but much earlier. Viennese? Did they stay in the office, or what do you know about that? behind. I shook hands and said goodbye to them, and then we weparated. I asked whether I could do anything for them, and then I left Vienna.
DR. SAUTER: I have no more questions, Mr. President;
THE PRESIDENT: The witness can retire.
(A recess was taken.)
THE PRESIDENT: With reference to the application on behalf of the Defendant Bormann. the Tribunal allows witness number one, Miss Elsa Krueger.
The Tribunal allows witnesses numbers three and four, Dr. Klopper and Helmudt Friedrich. of number two--Christians, I think it was. cation is refused. However, the Tribunal will consider any application for documents which the defendants counsel, who may be appointed to argue the general questions ed law in behalf of all the defendants, may wish to have translated. under Roman numeral three in the application, and counsel for the defendant Bormann may also use the documents contained under heading "B". a matter which will be decided at the time the documents are presented. application of Dr. Servatius, on behalf of the Defendant Sauckel.
I am told that the witness Timm is in Nurnberg prison. The witness Biedemann is also in Nurnberg prison. The witness Hildebrandt will probably arrive Nurnberg today. His whereabouts had been lost and he has only just been rediscovered. The witness Jaeger is in the British zone, and the British Secretary is trying, through the military authorities, to obtain his attendance. The witness Stothfang has not been locate . There appears to be a mistake in the identity of the person who was reported to the General Secretary previously. The witness Mitschke has never been located, although every effort is now being made to locate him.
DR. SAUTER: I should, now like to call a further witness, Fritz Wieshofer.
Mr. President, I shall only have a very short examination to carry out with this witness, because most points have been clarified, by means of the other witnesses already.
FRITZ WIESHOFER, a witness, took the stand and testified as follows: BY THE PRESIDENT:
Q Will you state your full name?
Q Will you report this oath after me: and will witheld and add nothing.
(The witness repeated the oath.)
THE PRESIDENT: You may sis clam. BY DR. SAUTER:
Q Mr. Wieshofer, how old are you?
Q Married?
Q Children?
Q Were you a member of the Party?
Q Only an aspirant?
Q Were you a member of the SS or the ...?
Q You are Austrian, are you not?
A Will you please repeat that; I didn't understand you.
Q You were born in Austria, warn you not?
Q When did you join the Reich Youth Leader's Office?
Q And what did you de before that?
Q How long?
Q And before that?
A Before that I Was employed by the Gauleiter's Office in Caernten, Carinthia.
Q Did you have anything to do with the HJ before? Vienna, did you not?
Q In what capacity did you go to Vienna?
A I went there as von Schirach's adjutant.
Q And what were your duties mostly? ing to it that files were presented on time at conferences, preparations for journeys and carrying out journeys, and all that sort of thing. or for the Gauleiter, or did you act for him as Mayor? preters can catch up.
Q Did you also know or see the secret files? First of all, I am interested in this, Who was responsible for the sending of Jews out of Vienna? the RSHA. The representative in Vienna was a certain Dr. Brunner, an Obersturm fuehrer in the SS.
Q Did you have anything to di officially with this Dr. Brunner in the matter of the transport of Jews, and on what occasions? would make written applications to von Schirach to be left out of the transport In such cased Schirach, through the Chief of his Central Department, would have representations made to Dr. Brunner's office so as to fulfill the request of the applicant. I would say that generally this was done by the Chief of the Central Department. I remember two cases where I myself received instructions to visit Dr. Brunner -- not to write to him, not to telephone him, but to go and see his personally.
Q And what did SS Obersturmfuehrer Dr. Brunner tell you about the actu plans which had been made for the Jews when they were taken away from Vienna?
A Dr. Brunner only told me, on the occasion of one of these two interventions, that the action of resettling Jews would be a resettlement from the district of Vienna into the zone of the former Government General.
He also tol me in what way this was being carried out. For instance he said that for women and small children there were principally second-class carriages; that suffici rations for the journey and milk for small children would be provided. He also told me that these resettled persons upon arrival at their destination and pro vided that they could work, would immediately be put to work. He said that, first of all, they would be put into assembly camps, but that as soon as accommodations were available they would be given living accommodations of their own, and all such matters. He also told me that because of the numerous interventions caused by Schirach, his work had been made very difficult. way from acting on behalf of Jews, and did you discuss that order with von Schirach? the beginning of 1941, which we received in ritting. It stated that "because of reasons which exist, we once more point out", and so forth. That seemed to indicate that it was a repetition of an order which had already been given. The content of the order was that because of some episode or incident, Gauleiters were prohibited from acting on behalf of the Jews in the future.
Q Did you talk about that with Schirach?
A I did; I talked to him about it.
Q What did he say? it put into the files. He didn't actually say anything about it.
Q I have another question, witness. The defendant von Schirach once were to the concentration camp at Mauthousen. Can you tell us then that was?
A I cannot tell you exactly. All I can say on that subject is that when I came back from the front -- and this was either in the autumn of 1942 or in June of 1943-- the adjutant who was on duty at the time told me that he had accompained Herr von Schirach to a concentration camp, which was Mauthausen. Some time afterwards -- which means that it must have been when I came back from the front for the second time, at the end of 1943 -- Herr von Schirach told me that that he had been to Mauthausen.
I only recollect that he said that he had heart a symphony concert there.
Q Well, we are not interested in that, we have heard it. I am only interested in one thing: Did he later on, visit Mauthausen or another concentration camp again? Can you give us reliable information on that?
A. I can give you reliable information on that. That is quite out of the question because from November, '43, until the collapse I was continuously on duty and I knew, therefore, where von Schirach would be.
Q. Did he go to Mauthausen again in 1944?
A. No.
Q. Are you sure?
A. Out of the question.
Q. Witness, you remember that towards the end of the war there were orders coming from some source of other stating that enemy aviators who had been forced to land were no longer to be protected. Do you know of that?
A. Yes.
Q. Do you know that there were such orders?
A. Yes.
Q. What was the attitude of Defendant von Shirach regarding such orders and how do you know about it?
A. I have talked about those orders with Herr von Shirach. The idear contained therein were always turned down by con Shirach and he always said that such aviators, too, were to be treated as prisoners of war. Once he said: "If we don't do that, then there is the danger that our enemies too will treat their prisoners, that is Germans, in the same manner."
Q. Have you experienced cases yourself where Defendant von Shirach was actually taking care of enemy flyers in that way?
A. Yes.
Q. Will you please tell us about it?
A. During one of the last air attacks on Vienna, in March, 1945, an American aircraft was shot down and crashed near the headquarters of the Gauleiter's office. That Command Post was on a wooded hill in Vienna which was used by part of the population to go to during air attacks. Von Shirach was watching from some ireon structure which was 96 feet high, on which he would always stand during air attacks, and he observed that a member of the American crew got out of the aircraft. He immediately ordered the Commander in charge of this Command Post to go to the place of the crash by car so as to protect the American soldier against the crowd and bring him to safety.
The American soldier was brought to the Command Post and after the air attack he was handed over to the Air Force Command.
Q. Then did you leave Vienna?
A. I left Vienna, together with von Shirach, on the 13th of April, 1945.
Q. And you were together with Defendant von Shirach?
A. Yes, together with Herr von Shirach.
Q. Now this is my last question I have to put to you. Have you ever heard from Shirach's lips anything which would indicate that Vienna would have to be held to the last man under any circumstances or that destruction should be carried out in the town of Vienna?
A. I have heard him say neither one nor the other at any time.
DR. SAUTER: Mr. President, I have no further questions to this witness.
DR. SERVATIUS: Counsel Servatius for Sauckel. BY DR. SERVATIUS:
Q. Witness, do you know the Prater in Vienna?
A. Yes, of course; I an Viennese.
Q. What sort of an institution is that?
A. The Prater is, or at least was, a place of pleasure.
Q. Was it closed during the war?
A. The Prater was not closed during the war.
Q. What sort of people used to go there?
A. During the war you mean?
Q. Yes.
A. Workers, employees, civil servants generally; all Viennese. All people who were in Vienna.
Q. Did you see foriegn workers there?
A. Yes.
Q. A great many or just a few?
A. The situation in Vienna was that one used to say that if you want to go to the Prater then you have to be able to speak French and Russian, because with Viennese alone you can't got along. The Prater was overcrowded with foreign civil workers.
Q. How were these foreigners dressed, badly or well?
A., There foreigners were well dressed, so that you couldn't distinguish them from the population. Only when they talked could you recognize that the were foreigners.
Q. How did they look generally? Were they well fed, did they look starved?
A. As far as I myself have observed, the workers looked perfectly well fed.
Q. Did they seem to have money?
A. They had lots of money. It was known that the black market in Vienna was almost entirely dominated by foreign workers.
Q. Was that only the case in the Prater or was it the same in the whole town, that you could see these foreigners like that?
A. It wasn't only the situation in the Prater. It was generally the case in the town. In cafes, of which there are many in Vienna, in hotels, restaurants.
DR.SERVATIUS: I have no further questions. BY MR. DODD:
Q. Who, besides the Defendant von Shirach, do you know of these defendants And by "know" I mean know person ally or have some acquaintanceship with the or had something to do with the?
A. Personally, I only know Herr Funk.
Q. Do you know Sauckel?
A. Yes.
Q. Well, who else?
A. I know Mr. Seyss-Inquart, but I didn't have any personal dealings with him. I was adjutant of von Shirach.
Q. How do you know Funk?
A. I was invited by Mr. Funk a few times. Officially, as adjutant of Herr von Shirach, I had some dealings with him and beyond that, he invite me a few times.
Q. Were you in the SS at that time, when you were invited by Funk?
A. During that time I was in the Waffen SS.
Q. By the way, when did you first join the SS?
A. I joined the Waffen SS on the 26th of June, 1940.
Q. Were you in any other branch of the SS besides the Waffen SS?
A. I was in the Allgemeine at the General SS
Q. When did you koin the Allegeine or General SS?
A. In June, 1939, June or July, 1939.
Q. So you were actually in the SS from as far back as 1939?
A. In the General SS, yes.
Q. How you also became an SS Obersturmfuehrer at one time, did you not?
A. I became Obersturmfuehrer about the 21st of June, 1944.
Q. When did you join the SA?
A. I joined the SA on the 9th of May, 1932.
Q. Did you know the Came Strasshoff, S-t-r-a-s-s-h-o-f-f-?
A. This is the first time I am hearing that name.
Q. Well, that may have been mispronounced. It was a camp located outside of Vienna.
A. I can't think what that camp might be. I understood Strasshoff?
Q. Yes, something like that. You never heard of that camp?
A. Never.
Q. And you were in Vienna from what? -- 19 -
A. I was born in Vienna.
Q. Well, I know you were, but I am talking about your service with the Defendant Shirach. You were there with him for how long?
A. From the beginning of October, 1940.
Q. And you never heard of Strasshoff?
A. No.
Q. Did you have much to do with the files of this Defendant, von Shira
A. Yes.
Q. What would you say you had to do with them? What was your responsi bility?
A. I merely had to see to it that files were prepared in good time when they were used during conferences and that after they had been used they were returned to the central department.
Q. Where would you go to get a file for von Shirach that had to do with the Reich's Defense Commission for that district or that defense district? Where would you go to got a file that had to do with matters concerning the Reich's Defense Commission? Let me make it clear to you. Say that von Shirach tell you he wants a file about a certain matter that has to do with the Reich Defense Commission, that you would have to have it on his desk by a certain hour and see that it was ther, as you say. Tell the Tribunal just what you would do, where you would go, who you would talk to, and how you would get that for him?
A. That would be simple for me. I would address the Chief of the Central Department and I should know that he would probably have to go to the Govern ment President to obtain that file. That is what I assume. I myself would have gone as far as the Central Department.
Q. You had a central filing place, didn't you, for all of your files, whether they were under the Reich's Defense Commission or the Gauleiter or the civil government of Vienna, isn't that so? They were all kept in one place?
A. They were not all together in one place; only some files were in the Central Department. I can't tell you which part because I have never had anything to do with that.
Q. You left Vienna on the 13th of April, you say, with von Shirach?
A. Yes.
Q. I suppose, as his adjutant, for some days previously there was considerable preparation for leaving, was there?
A. Yes.
Q. What did you pack up; what did yo take with you?
A. We didn't take anything with us from Vienna. Von Shirach was going car and there were two or three other cars used by the gentlemen of his entourage. Nothing else was taken along from Vienna.
Q. Well, what did you do in the office; how did you leave that?
A. I think it was since the spring or the early summer of '44 that we were no longer in that office because the building of the town governor had had a direct hit and von Shirach could no longer work there. He was working in his flat.