I believe that, also, at that time he took with him the impression that it was not I who wanted to make the difficulties. influence of Martin Bormann, who rejected absolutely any kind of agreement between Party officers and church of between the youth leadership and the church and tried to prevent them. youth organizations or the incorporation it came to animated discussions in public. I made statements about it. According to the current situation, they were more or less temperamental; but statements inimical to religion I have not made in connection with that complex of questions nor at any other time during my life. with the church to the extent that principally the Hitler Youth should not be on duty on Sundays, during the time of going to church, so that the children could go to church; and, furthermore, that on account of this agreement you had considerable difficulties?
Q Will you tell us briefly about that? if I remember correctly. It was on the basis of various letters which I received from clergymen that I a issued a decree which took into account the threats which were expressed in these letters to a very far extent. I issued that decree and I gather from many affidavits which have been sent by youth leaders to me recently that that decree was very carefully obeyed. Chancellory, Bormann, of course, was a vital enemy of such a principal concession to the church and Hitler, himself--and I couldn't say whether it was in connection with that decree, but, at any rate, in connection with the regulation of that dispute between youth leadership and the church-Hitler also corrected me once.
Q Witness, I have a small book here, entitled "A Good Year 1944", and the sub-title is "Christmas Gift of the War Welfare Service of Reich Leader Baldur von Schirach". I submit that book as document No.84 to the Tribunal for official notice. On page 55 is a picture of the Madonna. On page 54 is a Christian poem written by the defendant, with the title "Bavarian Cristmas Crib". On the lower half of that page 54 there is the famous ""essobrunner Prayer", the oldest poem in German language from the Eigth Century.
that book you had difficulties on the part of Reichsleiter Bormann, and what were they? soldiers at the front in 1944. I did not hear anything directly from Bormann; but he asked suddenly for ten copies of that book and I was informed from people who were nearer the Fuehrer in the Fuehrer's headquarters that he used that book in some way in order to influence Hitler against me.
I should like to add that at ail times during my life, as far as I've expressed myself in the same way as I have in this poem, also in the collection of poems. "The Flag of the Persecuted," which I have not here, unfortunately, but which was distributed among the youth in a very large edition. There my revolutionary poems can be found, there are poems of a Christian content which, however, were not reprinted by the party press in the newspapers and, therefore, did not become so well-known as my other Verses. But I should like to empress quite clear ly, I was an opponent of the confessional youth organizations and quite as early as that, I wish to emphasize that I was not an opponent of the Christian religion
Q Not an opponent?
Q Did you ever leave the church?
DR SAUTER: May I, Mr. President, ask the Tribunal to take official notice of the documents 85 to 93, inclusive, of the document book Schiracht. All of thes are documents from the period then he was Reich Youth Leader, which manifest his attitude toward the church.
THE WITNESS: May I add something to that? As far as my religious attitude is concerned, I always tried to apply the expressions which can be found in Wilhelm heister's "Nanderjahrs" about religion and the place of the Christian religion. I should like to say here that in my work as an educator I was, myself mistaken, in so far as I was of the opinion that there exists a positive Christianity outside of the church.
say here for the first time in public that in the closest circles of the Hitler Youth I have always expressed a very clear belief in Christ before educators of the Adolf Hitler School, a fact which the Party Chancellory was never to find out about. I have always spoken about Christ as the greatest leader of the world, and the commandment to "Love thy neighbor" as the universal idea of our culture. I believe that about that also there are several testimonies by youth leaders which you have.
Q Yes, I shall refer to that later. I should like to begin a new chapter now.
Witness, in 1940 you were dismissed as Reich Youth Leader ? cation through what office ?
Q And in addition to that, you received another title, I believe ? Hitler Youth.
Q Was that only a title, or was that an office ? with the youth work in the field of the Party. The Youth Leader of the German R Reich -- that was Axmann as my successor -- had also a field of activity in the state, and I became competent for that by my appointment as inspector. called to Vienna as Gauleiter ? What can you tell us about that ? man, I was in Lyons when as wireless message from the Fuehrer's Headquarters was received, and the chief of my company told me that I had to report to the Fuehrer's headquarters. I went there at once, and at the Fuehrer's headquarters, which was at that time in the Black Forest, I saw the Fuehrer standing in the open and speaking to Reich Foreign Minister von Ribbentrop. I waited a while, maybe twenty minutes, until the conversation had ended and reported then at once to Hitler, and he told me there outside, before the Casino building where we had our meals later all together, he told me in about ten minutes the following:
He intended to give me the mission to take over the Gau Wien, Vienna, and I suggested my assistant, Axmann. He was, perhaps not a man of physical training, but a man who was concerned with the social work among the youth, and that was most important to me.
THE PRESIDENT: Dr. Sauter, we need not go through Axmann's qualification need we ? Is it material to the Tribunal to know what his successor was like ?
DR. SAUTER: Axmann ? Axmann was successor as Reich Youth leader.
THE PRESIDENT: What I was asking you was whether it was material for the Tribunal to know the qualities of Axmann. We have nothing to do with that.
DR. SAUTER: No, I hardly believe so. BY DR. SAUTER:
Q Mr. von Schirach, you can be more brief abort that point, can you not Education and that I should assume at the sane time the office of the Inspector of Youth and that I should go to Vienna as a successor to Buerckel. and therefore Hitler told me that I should concentrate on the development of cultural places; that is, theatres, art galleries, libraries and so on, and I should be especially concerned about the workers of the city.
I raised the objection that I could carry out that cultural work only independently of Goebbels, and Hitler promised that this independence would be maintaeined, but he did not keepthat promise later. away from Vienna, that he had told Himmler or Heydrich - I don't remember whom he mentioned there -- or that he would tell them that Vienna had to become a German city, and in that connection even spoke of an evacuation of the Czech population.
That concluded that conversation. I received no other instruc for this office, and the usual dinner took place together. I took my leave then, and went to Berlin to talk to my assistants. formed, the most difficult Gau of the Reich; is that right ? which we had amongst the Gaus.
Q Why ?
A For the following reasons : I found out about the details only after I had received my mission from Hitler. After receiving my mission from Hitler, I found out from other people in Berlin. of enthusiasm over the Anschluss had subsided. Mr. Buerckel, my predecessor, had imported many officials from Germany to Vienna, and the German system of administration, which was not at all more practicable or efficient than the Austrian, was introduced there. There resulted a certain over-organization in the administrative field, and Buerckel had started on a church policy which was more than unsatisfactory. There had been demonstrations under his rule, and on one occasion the palace of the Archbishop was damaged. Theatres and other places of culture were not taken care of they should have been. Vienna had come to a feeling of great disappointment. Before I got there I was informed that if one spoke in the streetcars with a North German dialect, the Viennese took an unfriendly attitude against one.
Q Witness, what duties did you have in Vienna ? two administrations culminated, the municipal administration and the national administration. In addition, I was Reich Defense Commissar for Defense Area 17, but only until 1942. In 1942, the area was subdivided, and each Gauleiter in that area became his own Reich Defense Commissar.
Q And then you also were Gauleiter ?
A Yes, I was also Gauleiter. That was the highest official of the Party.
Q. In other word, in your person, you united what -- state, city and Party, in Vienna ?
A Yes. Now, in the administration, for the state administration, the national administration, the competent person was the Regierungspresident; for the municipal administration, there was another representative, the mayor; in the Party, the Deputy Gauleiter in Vienna had the title of Gauleiter. the Gau by explaining that. I intend to cover the Gauleiter, the Deputy Gauleiter, I had at that time. I just went to say that in order to clarify my position.
Q What really was your position as Reich Defense Commissar, Witness? Was that a military position or what was it?
A That was no military position at all. The Reich Defense Commissar was simply the head of the civil administration, and in contrast to the measures taken during the First World War, where the head of the civil administration was an assistant subordinated to the commanding general, in this war the Reich Defense Commissar was coordinated to him, not subordinate. my tasks - - were that at certain periods of time the most important questions of food economy, transportation - - that is, local and distant transportation coal, supplies, price administration for the Gaus Vienna, Upper Danube and Low Danube, all of which belonged to Defense Area 17, had to be taken care of. kind. In the year 1942, the reorganization which I previously mentioned took place. Bormann succeeded against the Reichsmarshal. The Reichsmarshal was of the opinion that the Reich Defense Commissar had to be defense commissar for the entire defense area, but Bormann wanted each Gauleiter to be defense commi and so the separation took place. From 1942 on, I was only Reich Commissar for Vienna. and will you please tell me when you found out about it. That is, a decree was issued by Reichsleiter Bormann that no more than two Gauleiters could meet.
A That is not a decree from Bormann; that was an order by Hitler.
Q What was the text of that?
A I can explain that briefly. Because of the fact that the Reich Commiss riat was subdivided, I had to meet from time to time with the Reich governors of other provinces in order to discuss the most important questions, especially concerning our food economy. However, I believe in 1943 Dr. Ley came to me in Vienna and brought me an official order from the Fuehrer, according: to which i was considered illegal - - that was the way it was expressed there - - if more than two Gauleiters met for a conference.
At that time I looked at Dr. Ley speechlessly, and he said, "Well, that doesn't really concern you. There is still another Gauleiter who has called a conference of several of them, and that fact alone is already considered as mutiny or conspiracy."
up much of your time? Please tell us briefly about that. to come to the Reichschancellory. evacuation of the entire German youth from areas endangered by aerial attack, and at the same time to carry out the evacuation of the mothers and infants, and he said that that should begin in Berlin and then take place all throughout the Reich. He said that education was of no importance now; the main thing was to maintain the nerve strength of the youth and the life. However, I asked at once that I be given the possibility of establishing an educational organization, and I also did that. important in connection with the prosecution, which I stated at once, was that there should be no difficulty regarding the youngsters' participation in church services. That was promised to me, and in my first directives for the children's evacuation to the country it was expressed very clearly, and the youth leaders in the field of my organization will confirm it.
Q This evacuation of children to the country was a very extensive task, wasn't it? point of view which I have ever carried out. I transferred millions of people; I supplied them with food, with education, with medical all, and so on. Of course that work took up my time fully only during the first years, and then I trained my assistants also for that kind of work. to Hitler about your successors and your doubts. How often during the entire year of the war were you admitted in order to discuss that important field of work w Hitler?
A Counsel, I am afraid I have to correct you. I never tried to report to Hit about my successors, but only about my worries.
to him twice, that first time in 1940, after I had started the whole thing, and the second time in 1941, when the evacuation had reached very large proportions. the possibility of reporting discontinued altogether with the breach of relations which I will describe later. burg Librarian Society.
DR. SAUTER: No. 1 of Document Book Schirach has reference to that matter, and I submit it for judicial notice. It is an affidavit by an old anti-Fascist, Karl Klingsport, an honorary member of the society, who rives valuable information about the character of the defendant von Schirach.
BY DR. SAUTER: Southeast Europe Society, is that correct?
Q In brief, what was the mission of that society? economic relations of the Southeast. Its functions were essentially in the field of research and representation.
Q Witness, what was the center of gravity of your Viennese activities? work, as I have already explained before. Social work and cultural work were the two spheres which dominated my entire political life.
the Prosecution concerning that period in Vienna. Among other things you have been accused of participating in the so-called slave labor program, and I ask you to state your position concerning that, and to explain also Directive No. 1 about the Plenipotentiary for Manpower of the 6th of April 1942, which was presented, I believe, as Document 3352-PS. Maybe I should start with that decree by which Gauleiters were appointed plenipotentiaries for manpower under the general plenipotentiary.
that the Gauleiter could make suggestions and present requests to the Manpower Administration, but they were held responsible - - I don't know whether that was by this decree or another one - - for the supervision of the food supply and the quartering of foreign workers. This feeding and quartering of foreign workers was, in my Gau and I believe also in all other Gaus of the Reich, in the hands of the German Labor Front especially.
frequently about the conditions among German workers and foreign workers in the Gau. He frequently accompanied me on inspections of industries, and from my own observations I can describe my impressions here of the life of foreign workers in Vienna such as I could see it. factory where I saw barracks in which Russian and French women were living. They had better quarters there than many Viennese families which lived with six or eight people in a two-room apartment. It was clean and neat, and among the Russian women who were there I noticed that they were gay, well nourished, and apparently satisfied. of many of my assistants, I know about the treatment of Russian domestic workers, and here, also, I have heard, and in part observedmyself, that they were very well treated. foreign workers. For centuries foreign workers have worked in Vienna. To bring foreign workers from the southeast of Vienna is not a problem at all. One likes to go to Vienna just asone likes to go to Paris. I have seen many Frenchmen and French women who worked in Vienna, and at times I spoke to them.
I talked to French formen in factories. They lived as tenants somewhere in the city, just like anybody else.
In the streets of Vienna one saw the foreign workers taking walks. One saw them in the Prater. They spent their time off just asour own native workers. there are in any ether Gau in Germany. Of course in these kitchens the foreign workers benefited just asmuch asthe native workers. in a city which has had the custom for centuries to work together with foreign elements, that population on its own will treat any worker well who comes from abroad.
Bad conditions were not reported to me. From time to time, here and there, it was reported that something wasnot going well. It was the duty of the Gau leader of the labor front to report that to me. Then immediately from my desk by telephone I issued a directive to the food office or the quota office for the supply of kitchens or heating installations, or something like that. At any rate, I tried within 24 or 48 hours to take care of allrequests that came to me. manpower in general. I am not responsible for the importation of labor. I can only say that which I saw in the way of directives and orders from the general Plenipotentiary Sauckel. That always went in a direction of a humane, decent, just and clean treatment of the workers which we had on our hands. Sauckel flooded his offices with such directives. don't consider yourself responsible, were they employed in the armament industry or elsewhere?
Whether there were some in the armament industry I could not say. The armament industry in all its parts, even in my functions as Gauleiter, was not accessible to me, because there were parts of war production which were kept secret even to the Reich Governor.
Q Witness, in connection with the chapter, "Jewish Forced Labor", a letter was read, Document 3803-PS. That is, I believe, a handwritten letter from the defendant Kaltenbrunner to Blaschke. Blaschke, I believe, was the second mayor of Vienna.
Q This is a letter of the 30th of June 1944. In that letter Kaltenbrunner informs Blaschke that Kaltenbrunner had directed that several evacuation transports should be sent to Vienna, Strasshof.
"There are four transports", it says in the letter, "with about 12,000 Jews, which will arive in a few days."
So much about the letter. The further content is only of importance because it says in the end -- and I quote:
"Further details you will arrange with the Staatspolizeistelle, State Police Office, Vienna, SS Sturmbannfuehrer Hebner, and SS Sturmbannfuehrer Kumei, of the Special Command, Hungary, who is at present in Vienne." End of quotation.
Did you have anything to do with that matter, and, if so, what? Kaltenbrunner and the mayor of Vienna. To my knowledge that Camp Strasshof is not within the Gau Vienna. It is in a different Gau. The designation "Vienna, Strasshof", is, therefore, a mistake. There is a borderline between. here, by the document in the court room? that in connection with the establishment of the Southeast wall, mention wasmade about the use of Jewish workers. The southeast wall, however, was not in the area of the Reich Gau Vienna. It was an establishment which was erected in the area of the Gau Nieder Donav, Lower Danube, or Styria. I had nothing to do with the construction of that defense installation, but that was in the handsof Dr. Jurl or the O.T. That is the Organization Todt. And on the other part beyond the border it was in the handsof Dr. Ueberreiter, the Gauleiter of Styria, and his technical assistant. with these things because they were matters which had nothing to do with the area of your Gau.
A Yes. I cannot understand what connection should arise for the Gau Vienna. Whether the mayor intended to keep some of those workers for special tasks in Vienna is not known to me. I do not know about that matter.
Q In the same connection, "witness, another document hasbeen submitted, 1948-PS. There is a file note of 7 November 1940. That was a date at which you had been Gauleiter in Vienna for several months, and it also concern forced labor of the Jews who were capable for work.
That letter or file note was written on the stationery with the heading of the Reich Governor of Vienna, and apparently the note in question was written by a Dr. Fischer. Who is that Dr. Fischer? What did you, asReich Governor, have to do with that matter? What do you know about it?
A First, Dr. Fischer is not known to me personally. I do not want to dispute the possibility that he may have been introduced to me and that I don't remember him; but I don't know why Dr. Fischer is. At any rate, he was not an expert working in my central office. I assume that he may have been an official, because his name appears also in connection with another document. He was possibly the personal official of the Regierungspresident. The note shows that this official used my stationery, and he was entitled to do that. I believe several thousand people in Vienna were entitled to do that, to use that stationery. can be seen that the Reich Security Main office -- that is, Heydrich, RSHA -was the office which decided about the use of Jewish manpower by internal directivesof the Gestapo. that I wasinformed about cruelties by the Gestapo such asthe Prosecution has concluded. It is doubtful whether at that I was at all in Vienna. I want to remind you of my other tasks, which I have described before. the cleaning of the streets. I should like to say principally that the variety of my tasks brought it about that I had to establish a construction of an organizational nature which did not exist in ether Gaus, that is, the Central Office of the Reich Leader. officials you had, howmany employees you had in Vienna under you.
DR. SAUTER: Shall I continue, Mr. President? It is 5:00 o'clock.
THE PRESIDENT: We will adjourn.
(The Tribunal adjourned at 1700 hours to reconvene 24 May 1946, 1000 hours.)
(The hearing reconvened at 1400 hours, 24 May 1946.) BY DR. SERVATIUS (Counsel for the defendant Sauckel): the directives given by Sauckel. Regarding manpower, you have already stated that you were flooded with such directives. Were these directives also carried out?
AAs far as I was informed about it, I can confirm that. I had the impression that the functionaries of the Manpower Administration said that they had to keep strictly to the directives of Sauckel, and that that which wasdemanded in these directives was actually carried out. out?
A Yes. I remember that Sauckel once came to Vienna, I believe in 1943 or 1944 -- 1943, I rather believe -- and that he spoke on that occasion to all his functionaries concerned with manpower and repeated orally everything which he had expressed in his directives. In particular, he expressed himself concerning the foreign workers, demanded just treatment, and I remember that on that occasion he even spoke of equality with domestic workers.
Q I have a few more questions about the political leaders. How were political leaders on the level of the Gau informed? Were there conferences for the Gauleiters with the Fuehrer, especially in connection with the Gau rallies?
A No. At the Gauleiter meetings, the Fuehrer in conversations before larger circles always expressed himself just as he did in his speeches. Real conversations did not exist. He always made speeches. Dates on which Gauleiters could be heard by Hitler did not occur any more after the war started.
Q Couldn't a Gauleiter appraoch Hitler personally and ask for an interview?
A He could ask for an interview, but he didn't receive it; his request wasn't granted. He received an answer from Bormann, usually by telegram. I have seen that myself very frequently, because I made such requests and it was ordered that one should submit in writing the points about which one wanted to speak, and then one received either an answer or no answer. by Gauleiter Sprenger. You were here when it was submitted and you know the document. I have two questions about it. containing the names of those afflicted with heart and lung disease who should be removed from the population?
Q On that, were you supposed to make suggestions to the Fuehrer?
A. No. has been mentioned here That is, it says there "Herren Ortsgruppenleiter," and repeated mention is made of the Herren Kreisleiters and Ortsgruppenleiters in the text. I ask you now if that was common usage in the language of the Party? exception of that one which I consider a fraud -- where the term "Herr" was used. that the document is false?
DR. SERVATIUS: I have no further questions. BY DR. STEINBAUER (Counsel for the defendant Seyss-Inquart):
Buerckel. What was the relationship between Buerckel and Seyss-Inquart? Party about that relationship. It was extremely bad, and all of us had the impression that Buerckel, from the very beginning, intended to push Seyss-Inquart out.
Q Which one of the two really had the power in his hands? which can be seen from the files, who is responsible for the persecution of Jews in Vienna?
Q All right, you say Hitler, but Hitler was not in Vienna. Who carried out these orders in Vienna? the period of Buerckel and Seyss-Inquart -- by the same man who has been mentioned here once before, and who in the meantime has been condemned to death in Vienna, Dr. Brunner. Buerckel against the severe measures and had difficulties with Buerckel on account of that?
AAbout that I can't say anything because I don't know it. tapestry and Gobelins from the former imperial property to Hitler. Do you know anything about that?
A I know the following: In the large collection of Gobelin in Vienna, there were two series of the battle of Alexander. One series of inferior quality was sent by the Reich Governor Seyss-Inquart to the Reich Chancellory as a loan, and it could be seen there. meant a loss?
A., In the catalogue of the collection, that series was marked as a loan.
Q. Is it known to you that other Gobelins were put at the disposal of the Reich; that is to say, Adolf Hitler, by Seyss-Inquart?
A. No, I know nothing of that.
Q. But maybe you know that somebody else may have taken such Gobelins and tapestries with him?
A. I assume that you are hinting at Buerckel.
Q. Yes.
A. Whether Buerckel took Gobelins with him, I do not know for sure. When I took over my office in Vienna, I found out that Buerckel had taken from the Imperial Depot a number of pieces of furniture, and I believe also some carpets, not for his personal use but for his so-called Vienna House, which he intended to establish in the Gau Sahrpfalz as a sort of club, and that he had taken these things along. whether it was the Reich Finance Ministry or the Reich Ministry of Culture-and when I was not successful there, I approached Hitler himself. And finally I succeeded in having Buerckel ordered to return these objects to Vienna at once. turned. I know that he was charged to do so, and I assume that these objects then later were, in fact, returned.
Q. All right. You know from segments which I have read to you as defense counsel that we always hated Goebbels for very serious reasons, and that to be loyal and decent one has to admit that many things became much better, in general, under your office. Therefore, it seems all the more important to me that the most serious charge against you should be clarified. You have been charged with the responsibility as Reich Commissar that it was your fault, or through your guilt, that the most valuable monument of Vienna had been destroyed your National Socialist mayor, Ingeneur Blaschke, were in favor of declaring Vienna an open city when the Red army approached, you were against it and issued the order that Vienna had to be defended to the last.
Or who did give that order?
A. Neither Blaschke nor Schlaritzer demanded of me that Vienna should be declared an open city.
THE PRESIDENT: Dr. Steinbauer, did I understand that you are appearing for the defendant Seyss-Inquart?
DR. STEINBAUER: Yes, because this is a crime, and according to the theory of conspiracy, that is also pertinent. The charge made against von Schirach concerns these destructions, and it has been clarified who, in fact, gave that order which caused so much damage.
THE PRESIDENT: But you just said that you were not asking the questions in the defense of Seyss-Inquart, but in the defense of von Schirach. I do not think that we really ought to have the defense of von Schirach prolonged by questions by other counsel. We have already had his defense for a considerable time presented by Dr. Sauter.
DR. STEINBAUER: Then I shall not put this question. BY DR. STEINBAUER:
Q. Is it also know to you, or do you remember, what the attitude of SeyssInquart was in clerical questions, or questions of the church, as compared to Buerckel's?
A. It is only known to me that Dr. Seyss-Inquart, generally speaking, was considered a man with ties with the church. That conflicts arose with Buerckel out of that fact is quite clear to me. I cannot speak about details.
THE PRESIDENT: Does the prosecution wish to cross examine? BY MR. DODD:
Q. Mr witness, we understood you this morning to make a statement in the nature of a confession with respect to, at least, the persecution of the Jews; and while that part of this that you gave was perhaps bravely enough said, I think there is much of it that you neglected to say, perhaps through oversight.