Q Now, my next question. Is it correct that Himmler was frightened of Heydrich and this because Heydrich had been given too much authority and that for that reason he thought that by calling on you he had found the very man who to him, Himmler, would be no longer in danger at all?
In this connection the Prosecution have drawn a parallel between you and Heydrich, and, as I just said, have described you as the second Heydrich.
characterized as follows: Heydrich was by far the more intelligent of the two. He was-
THE PRESIDENT: Dr. Kauffmann, we do not want to know anything about Heydrich's intelligence. The witness has said over and over again that he was not his successor. BY DR. KAUFFMANN: earlier, and which is the following: considered to be of no danger to him, Himmler? had in his hands; he never wanted to lose such powers ever again. The moment Heydrich was dead, Himmler took over the entire department and never gave the executive powers away after that. On one occasion he had the experience as to how dangerous the Chief of the Security Police can become in the person of Heydrich. He wasn't going to run that risk a second time. Heydrich died, Himmler retained the executive powers in his hands?
Q Now, another question. You had stated yesterday that the conception of the so-called "final solution" didn't reach you until afterwards. In effect, instructions from Himmler to Heydrich and to Eichmann are available as early as 1941 or 42. Is it true that you frequently met Himmler and you were a friend of Himmler's? Himmler and myself and call it friendship. Just like every other official, I found that his attitude and treatment toward me was cool. He wasn't a man who had any personal contact or relationship to anyone.
"final solution" if you met Himmler frequently and had direct contact with him.
I, therefore, ask you again, didn't Himmler at some time or other put to you clearly what this "final solution" was?
A No, he didn't. I said yesterday that, on the basis of summer of '44, including reports from any enemy broadcast, I action.
Beginning with that moment-
Q Yes, well, you said so yesterday. You needn't repeat it.
THE PRESIDENT: Dr. Kauffmann, you told us yesterday that you would finish in an hour; you have now been nearly an DR. KAUFFMANN: I have only two or three questions.BY DR. KAUFFMANN:of Schellenberg, and it runs as follows:
"What am I going to do with Kaltenbrunner? He would have had me under his thumb in that case."
is supposed to have been said by Himmler. Please, will you give consider such a statement possible or probable?
A I don't consider it probable. If he did say this, THE PRESIDENT:
The Tribunal does not think that is a DR. KAUFFMANN: In the trial brief a document of this
THE PRESIDENT: It seems to be merely a matter of argument,
BY DR. KAUFFMANN:
Q So, I now come to the last question. I ask you whether could have brought about a change?
If that possibility did achieved an alleviation and an improvement of conditions?
was: "Will the state of affairs be improved or altered or is change all these conditions?"
to remain?
couldn't in my conscience leave my position. I considered
DR. KAUFFMANN: Mr. President, I have no further question.
THE PRESIDENT: The Tribunal will adjourn.
(a recess was taken.)
THE PRESIDENT: Do any of the Defendant's Counsel wish to ask any questions of the Defendant? BY DR. DIX (Counsel for Defendant Schacht): custody by the Allied Powers, had been in a concentration camp?
Q How long have you known that? requested me to call--so that she might call and visit her husband.
Q And about when was that? suggestion Schacht was interned in a concentration camp? letter from Schacht's wife and sent it the same day to the office of the Adjutant to Hitler, or to Fegelein. I received word that Himmler was to be consulted in this matter. Some time later I learned that Schacht on Hitler's decree or order had been interned and for the reason that he was suspected of working together with G oerdeler or perhaps another collaborator, involved in high treason and assassination in July, 1944.
Q I have a letter I received a short time ago. It is written by a former concentration camp inmate, written by Obersturmbannfuehrer Stawitzky. Do you know him? burg. In this letter I am told that this Stawitzky told him he had been ordered to murder Schacht with the rest of the special internees. Do you know anything about such an order for murder, as far as Schacht is concerned? on such a step through his own authority?
instruction could come only from Hitler or Himmler, and if such an order went out-
A Yes, you may assume that. As far as Schacht together with the other special internees, like Canaris, etc., is concerned, Hitler himself would have been the only person who could have ordered anything like that.
DR. DIX: That is all. BY DR. MERKEL (Counsel for the Gestapo): in the years 1942 to 1945 had forty to fifty thousand members. What can you tell me about those figures?
Q What is your statement? approximate number, that is?
A That I can't tell you even approximately, but I believe I have heard a figure for the occupied region in France of perhaps 800 people countries were subordinate? Security Police. of the Sipo and SD in the occupied countries? Kripo officials, that is, officials of the Criminal Police, had tasks of a State Police nature? into the special action groups were excluded from the sphere of the State Police and were acting in a special sector or had a special task aside from the State Police functions? in that department, even though they were personally not responsible to it, but as far as orders were concerned, their orders came from a different source.
officials who had purely administrative functions?
AAt least twenty percent had purely security police functions; the same number for the largest volume were the technical personel and other subordinate personel. clerks and so forth, about how many? then twenty percent for executive personnel; then the rest, 60 per cent, that remained, fall into two large groups of 30 per cent each. Technical, auxiliary forces and the other group, office forces -
A I believe they have been explained and mentioned repeatedly. The State Police had for its main function as in every other country, the protection of the State from any attack coming from within. the State Police, was voluntarily recruited. What can you say to that? I would like to say that those officials were in existence in 1943, and consisted of, officials who had been police officials at that already, in 1943.
Q And how, in what way, did they come to the State Police?
A Yes, they were transferred. Of course, there was a State police in existence prior to that time; it was not called the State Police -- I believe it was called the political police at that time. other State office ? (concerned, the Fuehrer decreed that No. 1 -- as far as keeping secrecy was concerned -- no one was to know more about a thing or matter than he had to know. Did that apply in the office of the RSHA? internal executive power for all administrative offices and I believe this was announced and publicized in every office of the Reich. Of coursem we were especially keen on observing this order in the police sector.
Q Do you know anything about the 1 - 10 - 1944 decree? The entire border custom protection which had been under the Reich Finance Office up until that time was transferred to the Ant IV of the RSHA. Did that transfer take place? believe September 1944. It was transferred to Himmler and it was taken out of the sphere of the Reich Finance Ministry.
Q Do you know how many members were concerned in that, how many people? but at this time I think there were about 10,000 people less, because recruiting had taken place and these 10,000 had been lost to the Wehrmacht; some of the younger men were in the fighting forces. the Customs and Border protection? be protected through the border police. to the Gestapo voluntarily? police. Do you know that it was in 1945 -
A Yes, It was; Mueller was General Border Inspector of the Reich. police.
checked passports and was active in those spheres.
Q Was this task different than before 1943?
Q Did it vary from the customs police in other countries?
Q What was the relationship of the State Police to the SS? Did they enter the SS voluntarily, or was it on the basis of an order?
A Voluntary enlistments were relatively few. I know that later Himmler, as far as promotions were concerned, was a little more restrictive and reserved if the official did not belong to the SS, so that in that way enlistments occurred, perhaps not from inner convictions but from a desire to be promoted.
Q The larger part then came in? Himmler. opportunity to leave their offices? required to serve on the "Notdienst." Can you explain that?
A That is not true of that part who had. As far as the other personnel were concerned, there were more who were liable for this service, especially after the war had taken place. The personnel toward the end was recruited from the members of the "Notdienst", and the personnel could be kept up. That is especially true of the technical and office personnel.
Q Did these members enter voluntarily?
A They had no choice. In connection with the labor offices, they were put into the "Notdienst" as the place where the Reich needed them. infringements or committed excesses or other misdemeanors?
A The same applied to them as to everyone else. All organizations who were subordinate to Himmler.
There was a special police court for them. In one sentence I can characterize this system by saying that on the whole the sentences were more severe and passed more often than in a regular civil court. some matters from sone one, that he had to serve in the penitentiary. Was that true?
Q Do you know was came to the concentration camp Danzig-Matzgau? than a concentration camp, every one who was taken there was sentenced by SS or police courts. tration camp? which were under your jurisdiction?
Q Do you know the so-called "severe measures of interrogation", and can you find those in other states? and I had the opportunity in the fall of 1943 at a session to speak about this topic, and from my reading in the foreign press. I gathered that each police system of each state has such measures.
THE PRESIDENT: What happened at some international police commission
DR. MERKEL: I only wanted to question the defendant on whether these
THE PRESIDENT: We are not concerned with that.
DR. MERKEL: The more severe measures of interrogation are used as an order which was limited in time think of corporal punishment or death at the commitment of the internee?
Q Was there a so-called Haftpruefungsverfahrung, an investigation? Did that apply to the inmates of the concentration camps?
A Yes, in peace and in war. Three times in peace and twice in time of war, and that was applied to every protective custody internee. This investigation was not just a matter of the State Police. This result had to be received from the camp commandant, and these reports had to be given to the Inspector of the Concentration Camps. He, in turn, had to deal with the State Police about this matter and about this internee. western countries, France, Holland, Belgium, Norway, and has brought evidence to that effect. Were there any instructions from the RSHA as far as torturing was concerned?
Q How do you explain the fact of this mistreatment? have never heard of that. In my opinion, the excesses of individuals might be involved, but a decree to that order certainly was never issued. resistance party and criminal elements masqueraded as members of the German State Police in order to facilitate their tasks? such thing or having seen anything like that.
DR. MERKEL: I have no further questions. BY DR. HAENSEL (Counsel for the SS): according to the testimony. SS, or was it a unified group? place after the Anschluss. Up until the time of the Anschluss, the SS in Austria can not be differentiated from the SA or from the Party.
Austrian SS, to which you belonged; first of all, before the Anschluss in 1938 and at the time at which you entered. What was the difference in numbers, and how did the development take place?
THE PRESIDENT: Too fast. the SS, to which you belonged, take place? maximum membership was perhaps 7,500.
Q Did that group in Austria play the role of a fifth column? Is "fifth column" a concept as far as you are concerned?
A Yes, "Fifth column" became a concept to me through the statements of the enemy, but to term the Austrian SS a fifth column is entirely wrong. The Austrian SS never had the task of being an intelligence unit or a sabotage unit. It never had any task like that. through force to bring about the annexation of Austria to Germany to be seen, or should this be brought about through plebiscites, through legal measures?
A There was not a plan of annexation by force. There was never any necessity for any such step, for the Anschluss movement was very strong in itself.
Q Do you mean the standarte which appeared at the Dolfuss Putsch? Can you tell me something about that? Did the work of this standarte have any connection with the assassination of the Austrian Chancellor?
A I consider that incorrect. I must say that this standarte did not have the number 86, but 89. 1935 was not a group of the SS, but a group of former members of the Austrian Army who, because of National Socialist activity, had been discharged from the Army. highest Austrian Police Leader, Dr. Skubl, should be able to give you information about that. I believe he has been asked for as a witness in another case, and I ask that you question him about this matter. can you remember that date? Which troops, according to your recollection, did march in? Here they SS units, or were they other units? Were they regular Army units, or were any SS units at all connected with that? What is your recollection? and there was one regiment of the Waffen SS, I can't recall which one, perhaps the Standarte Deutschland. tween the Wehrmacht and the Standarte Deutschland? That is, approximately.
A The Standarte Deutschland at that time, perhaps, had 2800 men. So far as the Wehrmacht is concerned, I don't know how many units there were. the entire figure of SS men? I would like to make it a little easier for you..I have seen a letter in which it is stated that in all a membership of three quarters of a million to one million men existed. Is such a figure correct?
A One million is much too high. With all parts of the SS together, including the Allgemeine SS, the General SS and the Waffen SS, including the SSmembers in police activity, I believe the figure is 720,000 to 750,000 men. Out of that number, at least 320,000 to 350,000 men died in action.
I believe the exact figure might be found, out from one of the defendants of the Wehrmacht. so far as you are able to determine, were connected with concentration camps; that is, with the supervision, administration, and so forth? Can you give me any figure as to just how many were so connected? not answer it immediately. In order to make calculations, I would have to have pencil and paper. in these duties. not connected with the administration of concentration camps have any idea of administrative conditions or of things that took place?
Q How can you tell me that with such certainty? Himmler or through his organization, no information could got out. officials recruited from the SS?
A No, not at all. So far as confidential men and collaborators of the Security Police in Germany itself were concerned, the ratio of members-
through the SS?
known?
A Yes, from each of the police offices. They were printed instructions, and every SS man knew of these regulations;they were laws.
They were punished heavily if anything like that
DR. HAENSEL: I have finished, Your Honor.
THE. PRESIDENT: Does the prosecution wish to cross-examine?
BY COLONEL AMEN:
January 1943 up to and including the end of the war. Is that correct?
A Yes; it applies with those limitations which I enumerated referring to this supposed understanding with Himmler?
Is that correct?
A It wasn't a supposed understanding with Himmler, it was something which existed.
It was a fact which existed from the title, but you deny that you exercised some of the powers?
Correct?
June, 1942? Is that correct?
Q There was no change in title?
personally. That is correct, is it not?
A Yes. I would like to add that my title received an licized.
I might refer to England, where the Chief of the to answering my question "yes" or "no" whenever possible, and other things in due time.
Will you try to do that?
camps during the war?
Tribunal for any such atrocities? Is that correct?
witnessed executions at Mauthausen, you deny? Is that correct?
of Hoellriegel. I declared his testimony wrong, or false, that Q Very good.
You had no personal knowledge of and did nothing personal about the program for the extermination of the Jews, is that correct, except to oppose them?
A No. I was against this program, of course; but from the moment when I knew of this as facts I objected with Hitler and Himmler, and the result was that they were stopped. connection with the program for the extermination of the Jews, right?
Q And does the same thing apply to the program for forced labor? Warsaw ghetto? connection with Stalag Luft 3? the killing of enemy fliers, correct? the course of your interrogations before this trial, correct?
Q And you still make them today?
A Yes. But as far as the preliminary interrogations are concerned, I would like to make a statement to that in cross examination. reports on concentration camps which were submitted to you for signature and then passed on to Himmler?
A No. I do not recall any such reports. The normal channel was that Mueller reported to Himmler direct.