had better say were you mostly resident in Berlin, or did your work as chief of the intelligence service make it necessary for you to leave Berlin often?
A I was absent from Berlin a great deal. I think I can say that half of the working time was spent away from Berlin. I was only in Berlin from the moment that the headquarters were transferred there. That was the months of February and March, 1945. I was away from the 28th of March until April 15, then from the 19th of April until the last day I was not in Berlin. During the years 1943 and 1944 I didn't reach Berlin until Lay 1943, because up to that time I had my own organization in Vienna which I reorganized so that it could be taken over by my Berlin department. I think only once during the first week in February 1943 did I stay in Berlin so as to pay visits, and from the middle of Feb1943 to February 1945 I was away for at least half the time. I have covered more than 400,000 kilometers by plane and car in my duties.
Q What were your activities when you were absent from Berlin?
Did you not have immediate and Direct contact with Mueller During that time?
A Certainly not with Mueller. During all those journeys of nine in the entire Reich, I never entered one single service Department of the State Police on any occasion. The exceptions are my visits to Linz where my family was living for a while and from which I used to send teleprints to my Department in Berlin but only for technical reasons. I have no other ways of using a teleprinter. by the prosecution. To say in a few words, these are the facts. During the suppression of the revolt in Warsaw in 1944, inhabitants of the town of Warsaw were taken to concentration camps. The prosecution put the figure at 50,000 or 60,000. Further deportations are supposed to have ceased due to an intervention of the defendant Frank with Himmler and he, that person, had interfered since defendant Frank and the Secretary of State Buckler had asked you -this should read that your person was included -- had asked you to get these people out of the concentration camps and return them to their homos. To begin with, I ask you, did such a conference on that subject take place in your office?
AA conference between Buckler and myself had taken place. The subject was quite different and I am asking you to let me stateit. The so-called uprising of Warsaw was defeated in a purely military action. I think that the battle took place under the command of the Chief of the Anti-bandit units, under von don Bach-Zelewski. That the units were that he was commanding, I do not know but I must assume that there were mixed troop units of the armed forces and the police. Any participation of my office in this purely military action is out of the question from the start. What Himmler and the troop units may have done with the prisoners, that was naturally not reported to me. The reason why Buckler came to see me was quite a different one. Frank, I think, for one or one and a half years had been trying to get Hitler to employ a different policy in the Government General.
Frank was in favor of increased autonomy for the Polish people.
In October 1944, I think, on the occasion of the National Polish Holiday, Frank had been planning to announce the extension of their autonomy. Hitler's refusal, in which he was encouraged by Himmler and various other factors, was in the way so he sent Buehler to me with the aim that I should make suggestions through the intelligence service, with the same aim, which is to say, participation of the poles in the administration and at the head of the government and I agreed to both and told Buehler so, and then he went on to say on this occasion that "Frank wants a generous amnesty to be pronounced in Poland and that includes the release of the prisinors from the Warsaw uprising, Can't you help us with that?" So I asked him, "Where are those prisoners; probably Himmler sent them to prisoner of war and concentration camps?" And the answer was, and could have been in that case, that "he must have used them in the armament industry and it would be hard for you to get then out;" and at any rate, I couldn't work in that connection for the amnesty. ence to bring out a release? during interrogations before the trial, I have received at least 1,000 individual applications for release and every single case was put before Himmler or sent to him -- put before him, into my report file, and mentioning them for verbal discussion when I reported to Himmler verbally. In two-thirds of all the cases I had same success in so far as he ordered their release but to such an extent as Frank was trying to get it through via Buehler, I neither had been able to get a decision or make a decision on my own; that was entire in Himmler's hands and it certainly meant diversion from the policy which he and Hitler agreed on regarding Poland. berg. On January 3rd, this witness stated before this Tribunal, that the evacuation of the concentration camp at Buchenwald had been ordered by Kaltenbrunner.
"Kaltenbrunner," he said "had said 'yes, this is correct; this evacuation is duo to a Fuehrer order which had been confirmed to him, Kaltenbrunner, by the Fuehrer'." Please give your explanation?
A The statement is quite definitely incorrect. It is incorrect because Hitler quite definitely never ordered an evacuation or even a non-evacuation of concentration camps. Such an order could only originate from Himmler.
THE PRESIDENT: Was there an affidavit or did he give the evidence, Schellenberg?
DR. KAUFFMAN: It was evidence given.
THE PRESIDENT: It was given in evidence, was it?
DR. KAUFFMANN: Yes, a statement here of the witness on January 3rd.
THE PRESIDENT: Yes.
DR. KAUFFMAN: But, then, who did actually give such an order?
A It could only have been an order from Himmler. The channel of command is quite clear, Himmler-Pohl-Gluecks, and the Camp Commandant. It isn't impossible that Himmler may have given the order direct to the commandant of the camps. That I don't know.
Q I want to interpose a question. Did you gain knowledge of the orders?
A No, I didn't hear of them nor would these orders in any way have had to be taken to no, since I had ordered exactly the contrary regarding Mauthausen, and this is why in the case of M authausen I gave an order for the first and only time and that was something which I propose to state later, in connection with the powers given to me in April 1945, Until then, I never had any possibility to give any such order on behalf of Himmler. by the witness Berger, given here on January 3rd. I am reading one or two sentences. The commandant of Dachau says that Berger became his deputy, or his deputy telephoned about twelve o'clock and stated to me that he had received this order, the order for the evacuation from Kaltenbrunner after the Gauleiter of Munich had been asked by the Reich Commissioner.
My question now. Do you know anything about the evacuation of Dachau?
A No. This statement of Berger must be doubted quite definitely because he was the man who had been given authority by Himmler, concerning Bavaria and all the military territory near the front, which was given to him the same day I had my authority or my powers regarding Austria given to me. under Berger in accordance with these new powers or did it possibly come into yours? under Berger.
Q Was Dachau evacuated at all?
A I don't know; I have never been to Bavaria after, I think, the 19th of April. says a little later. Where abouts were you at the time?
A On the 19th of April, three o'clock in the morning, I left Berlin and went via Prague, to Linz and then to Innsbruck; wanted to go to Innsbruck where I wanted to meet Burckhardt's representatives. From that moment onwards, I lost touch with Berlin and I did not set foot on Bavarian soil or give orders there. My territory was defined by the Austrian Border. take and if Berger were confronted with me here, I am convinced the whole thing can be cleared up.
Q Could there have been an evacuation order signed by Himmler? against peace. Will you tell the Tribunal whether and if so what you have done during your time of office with regard to trying to end the war?
A I commenced my position on February 1, 1943. The situation which I found in the Reich was such that with the effects of the fall of Stalingrad -to be more exact February 2, 1943 -- and in accordance with my convictions the war must have been regarded as lost for Germany. The conditions which I viewed from a completely different viewpoint coming from Austria just confirmed that opinion of mine completely. of State Luther in the Foreign Office and I was talking to him at half past eleven in the morning. We were talking about foreign political intelligence tasks which we would have to carry out together and it went on until two in the afternoon and at four o'clock in the afternoon the same Secretary of State Luther was arrested by the Gestapo. atmosphere in which I found myself transferred and how such events as this -
THE PRESIDENT: What is this in answer to? What is the question it is in answer to? BY DR.KAUFFMANN: what you did to bring the war to the quickest possible end? efforts were in the spring of 1943. But I think it was even in February 1943 when I favored a completealteration of the church politics and when I considered the Vatican as a preferred medium of achieving peace. That was my first effort in that direction.
Q I now wish to mention the name Dalles, a Mr. Dalles. Did you have direct contact or indirect contact with him and what was the purpose of your taking up those connections?
A Yes, I was in contact with him through Hoettl. Since May 1943 I, together with Hoettl and others, was leading the political opposition in Auztria over to our side step by step and I met there contacts from foreign countries in favor of peace.
Through these channels Roosevelt's representative was reported as being present in Switzerland.
Q I want to ask you a question in that connection. What would have happened if Hitler or Himmler had heard of that attitude of yours? interpret it strictly, high treason since the Fuehrer's views were known to me at the time and they were that there should be no contact regarding peace or any discussions about peace. That opinion was stated to me by Hitler in the presence of a certain Wolf and as late as the 15 of April 1944. described, did anyone make journeys to Switzerland so as to make contact with that man Dalles? Hoettl. There were several other persons. For instance, I can draw your attention to a discussion which I had with Count Pototsky, whom I also asked to get in touch with the same circles and impart the same information an to Anglo-American circles also in Switzerland.
Q In that case I think we can leave this subject. In my opinion you have related the essential parts. numerous others. Professor Burckhardt and I ask you, is it true that in 1943 you had a conference with Professor Burckhardt with the aim that camps, prisoner of war camps and concentration camps should be opened to the Red Cross so that medical supplies could be taken into these camps? helped by the fact that he himself wan trying to meet Himmler but Himmler did not get Hitler's permission for sum a meeting because he at that time was the commander on the northern front of the River Weitzel and a meeting with Burckhardt could only have taken place there at the front. I tried, therefore, to arrange a meeting between Burckhardt and a responsible personality in the Reich or to take it upon myself and after a lot of ado and in spite of all the difficulties I succeeded and a personal meeting with Burckhardt was held on March 12.
given and in what manner?
A Yes, considerable help came. An agreement was reached, according to which all foreign civilian detainees, with the help of the Red Cross, were to be taken from all camps in the Reich and released to their home countries. But in the first place by granting Burckhardt's request during these discussions I achieved the aim that the leading departments of the Reich would be prejudiced by me to such an extent that they could no longer detach themselves from this agreement and that I think was my greatest success with Burckhardt. detainees through the front line you got in touch with Kesselring at his headquarters? and British had to get prepared so the Germans too would permit this number of people to go through the lines.
THE PRESIDENT: Dr. Kauffmann, he said March 12 but he did not give the year.
DR. KAUFFMANN: I do not understand -- yes, March 12.
THE PRESIDENT: What year?
DR. KAUFFMANN: 1945. BY DR. KAUFFMANN: reached their homeland?
A You have got to refer to two different periods. The first period which is period before the personal meeting on the 12th of March and the period after that.
We are not really concerned with the period. Belgium and all the eastern European states including the Balkan states were included in these talks. At least fourteen thousand Jewish detainees were handed over to the Red Cross for their immediate care at Theresienstadt. This applies to the whole camp at Theresienstadt. or if not very briefly, whether it is due to your intervention at Lake Constance, there was a special liaison department with the Red Cross which was serving the purpose of helping the carrying out of this program. are supposed to have sent to Fegelein in which it says: "Please report to the Reichsfuehrer that all measures regarding Jews, political and concentration internees in the protectorate, have been carried out by me personally today."
Did you send, such a wireless?
THE PRESIDENT: What is the number?
DR. KAUFFMANN: Mr. President, I did not mention a number. It was not presented in Court but it is contained in the trial brief on page 14.
THE PRESIDENT: I think it is 2519-PS. It was presented to the Court.
A (continued) The wireless message was planned -- the text probably was written by the adjutant who was accompanying me. I did not write it personally and as I say it was not sent. the discusions with Burckhardt I would act independently (1) with reference to foreign civilian detainees and regarding the entering of all camps by the Red Cross. On that occasion I stated in Hitler's and Himmler's presence that my route would go through Prague to Linz and Innsbruck and that I would pass by Theresienstadt and I said that there were not only Jewish detainees there who were to be looked after by the Red Cross but also Czechs, political detainees.
I suggested that their release should also be carried out and that is the explanation for that wirelessmessage. But not until the 19th of April at six o'clock in the evening was I given these powers. so, that you night have had jurisdiction over concentration camp questions. Please answer that question with yes or no, the one I am going to put to you. April 19, 1945 were the first powers in that sphere altogether.. been necessary. he delivered to the higher SS Police Leaders you are called Heydrich's successor. The Prosecution consider that this is a confirmation of the entire executive power and the extra-ordinary powers and authority you had. nection do justice to the situation or not? interrogations. I deny that I was Heydrich's successor or that I had been called that. If in my absence Himmler referred to me as such or if earlier on such a notice was published in the press coming from him, then this was done without my knowledge, and without my wish and the first time in connection with that press notice there was a violent reaction on my part. The day which you mentioned here I was sick in Berlin with an inflamed artery and therefore did not join that discussion. with Heydrich and I want to say quite briefly now that to the very last day of my activity I was paid 1,820 marks, which is the salary of a general of the police and that Heydrich's income from him office was more than thirty thousand marks, not because he was paid for a higher rank but in recognition of the fact that he had a completely different position than I did and a comparison is completely out of the question.
Q Now, my next question. Is it correct that Himmler was frightened of Heydrich and this because Heydrich had been given too much authority and that for that reason he thought that by calling on you he had found the very man who to him, Himmler, would be no longer in danger at all?
In this connection the Prosecution have drawn a parallel between you and Heydrich, and, as I just said, have described you as the second Heydrich.
characterized as follows: Heydrich was by far the more intelligent of the two. He was-
THE PRESIDENT: Dr. Kauffmann, we do not want to know anything about Heydrich's intelligence. The witness has said over and over again that he was not his successor. BY DR. KAUFFMANN: earlier, and which is the following: considered to be of no danger to him, Himmler? had in his hands; he never wanted to lose such powers ever again. The moment Heydrich was dead, Himmler took over the entire department and never gave the executive powers away after that. On one occasion he had the experience as to how dangerous the Chief of the Security Police can become in the person of Heydrich. He wasn't going to run that risk a second time. Heydrich died, Himmler retained the executive powers in his hands?
Q Now, another question. You had stated yesterday that the conception of the so-called "final solution" didn't reach you until afterwards. In effect, instructions from Himmler to Heydrich and to Eichmann are available as early as 1941 or 42. Is it true that you frequently met Himmler and you were a friend of Himmler's? Himmler and myself and call it friendship. Just like every other official, I found that his attitude and treatment toward me was cool. He wasn't a man who had any personal contact or relationship to anyone.
"final solution" if you met Himmler frequently and had direct contact with him.
I, therefore, ask you again, didn't Himmler at some time or other put to you clearly what this "final solution" was?
A No, he didn't. I said yesterday that, on the basis of summer of '44, including reports from any enemy broadcast, I action.
Beginning with that moment-
Q Yes, well, you said so yesterday. You needn't repeat it.
THE PRESIDENT: Dr. Kauffmann, you told us yesterday that you would finish in an hour; you have now been nearly an DR. KAUFFMANN: I have only two or three questions.BY DR. KAUFFMANN:of Schellenberg, and it runs as follows:
"What am I going to do with Kaltenbrunner? He would have had me under his thumb in that case."
is supposed to have been said by Himmler. Please, will you give consider such a statement possible or probable?
A I don't consider it probable. If he did say this, THE PRESIDENT:
The Tribunal does not think that is a DR. KAUFFMANN: In the trial brief a document of this
THE PRESIDENT: It seems to be merely a matter of argument,
BY DR. KAUFFMANN:
Q So, I now come to the last question. I ask you whether could have brought about a change?
If that possibility did achieved an alleviation and an improvement of conditions?
was: "Will the state of affairs be improved or altered or is change all these conditions?"
to remain?
couldn't in my conscience leave my position. I considered
DR. KAUFFMANN: Mr. President, I have no further question.
THE PRESIDENT: The Tribunal will adjourn.
(a recess was taken.)
THE PRESIDENT: Do any of the Defendant's Counsel wish to ask any questions of the Defendant? BY DR. DIX (Counsel for Defendant Schacht): custody by the Allied Powers, had been in a concentration camp?
Q How long have you known that? requested me to call--so that she might call and visit her husband.
Q And about when was that? suggestion Schacht was interned in a concentration camp? letter from Schacht's wife and sent it the same day to the office of the Adjutant to Hitler, or to Fegelein. I received word that Himmler was to be consulted in this matter. Some time later I learned that Schacht on Hitler's decree or order had been interned and for the reason that he was suspected of working together with G oerdeler or perhaps another collaborator, involved in high treason and assassination in July, 1944.
Q I have a letter I received a short time ago. It is written by a former concentration camp inmate, written by Obersturmbannfuehrer Stawitzky. Do you know him? burg. In this letter I am told that this Stawitzky told him he had been ordered to murder Schacht with the rest of the special internees. Do you know anything about such an order for murder, as far as Schacht is concerned? on such a step through his own authority?
instruction could come only from Hitler or Himmler, and if such an order went out-
A Yes, you may assume that. As far as Schacht together with the other special internees, like Canaris, etc., is concerned, Hitler himself would have been the only person who could have ordered anything like that.
DR. DIX: That is all. BY DR. MERKEL (Counsel for the Gestapo): in the years 1942 to 1945 had forty to fifty thousand members. What can you tell me about those figures?
Q What is your statement? approximate number, that is?
A That I can't tell you even approximately, but I believe I have heard a figure for the occupied region in France of perhaps 800 people countries were subordinate? Security Police. of the Sipo and SD in the occupied countries? Kripo officials, that is, officials of the Criminal Police, had tasks of a State Police nature? into the special action groups were excluded from the sphere of the State Police and were acting in a special sector or had a special task aside from the State Police functions? in that department, even though they were personally not responsible to it, but as far as orders were concerned, their orders came from a different source.
officials who had purely administrative functions?
AAt least twenty percent had purely security police functions; the same number for the largest volume were the technical personel and other subordinate personel. clerks and so forth, about how many? then twenty percent for executive personnel; then the rest, 60 per cent, that remained, fall into two large groups of 30 per cent each. Technical, auxiliary forces and the other group, office forces -
A I believe they have been explained and mentioned repeatedly. The State Police had for its main function as in every other country, the protection of the State from any attack coming from within. the State Police, was voluntarily recruited. What can you say to that? I would like to say that those officials were in existence in 1943, and consisted of, officials who had been police officials at that already, in 1943.
Q And how, in what way, did they come to the State Police?
A Yes, they were transferred. Of course, there was a State police in existence prior to that time; it was not called the State Police -- I believe it was called the political police at that time. other State office ? (concerned, the Fuehrer decreed that No. 1 -- as far as keeping secrecy was concerned -- no one was to know more about a thing or matter than he had to know. Did that apply in the office of the RSHA? internal executive power for all administrative offices and I believe this was announced and publicized in every office of the Reich. Of coursem we were especially keen on observing this order in the police sector.
Q Do you know anything about the 1 - 10 - 1944 decree? The entire border custom protection which had been under the Reich Finance Office up until that time was transferred to the Ant IV of the RSHA. Did that transfer take place? believe September 1944. It was transferred to Himmler and it was taken out of the sphere of the Reich Finance Ministry.
Q Do you know how many members were concerned in that, how many people? but at this time I think there were about 10,000 people less, because recruiting had taken place and these 10,000 had been lost to the Wehrmacht; some of the younger men were in the fighting forces. the Customs and Border protection? be protected through the border police. to the Gestapo voluntarily? police. Do you know that it was in 1945 -
A Yes, It was; Mueller was General Border Inspector of the Reich. police.
checked passports and was active in those spheres.
Q Was this task different than before 1943?
Q Did it vary from the customs police in other countries?
Q What was the relationship of the State Police to the SS? Did they enter the SS voluntarily, or was it on the basis of an order?
A Voluntary enlistments were relatively few. I know that later Himmler, as far as promotions were concerned, was a little more restrictive and reserved if the official did not belong to the SS, so that in that way enlistments occurred, perhaps not from inner convictions but from a desire to be promoted.
Q The larger part then came in? Himmler. opportunity to leave their offices? required to serve on the "Notdienst." Can you explain that?
A That is not true of that part who had. As far as the other personnel were concerned, there were more who were liable for this service, especially after the war had taken place. The personnel toward the end was recruited from the members of the "Notdienst", and the personnel could be kept up. That is especially true of the technical and office personnel.
Q Did these members enter voluntarily?
A They had no choice. In connection with the labor offices, they were put into the "Notdienst" as the place where the Reich needed them. infringements or committed excesses or other misdemeanors?
A The same applied to them as to everyone else. All organizations who were subordinate to Himmler.