11 Feb 1948_A_MSD_18_3_Arminger (Hildesheimer) am not sure.
Q Which one is that?
Q The fourth from the end?
Q Now, what makes you think that he is Haensch?
A I couldn't tell you. mind, because you couldn't make these comparisons unless you had a prototype to draw from. Now tell us from your memory just what Haensch looked like.
A From the treatment that I can't actually say today. I only said that it is possible to recognize a face.
Q All right, now, you have given us two possible people. Look a little bit further. See if there is anyone else there that looks like the image you have in mind. before.
Q Which one?
Q And how about the fourth?
A I seem to recognize that face too, but I couldn't say.
Q Now, why can't you identify Haensch in that defendants' dock, when you saw his picture just a few days ago?
Q You looked at his picture before you came here to Nurnberg. Mrs Haensch showed it to you.
Q You haven't seen a picture of the man that you think is Haensch at all in your life?
11 Feb 1948_A_MSD_18_4_Arminger (Hildesheimer) saw over a period of three years, that you can recall one individual person? again after years; people who have been patients in 1939, if one sees the fact again, one can remember when one sees that face again, and, if the patients also say that they have been treated before, then one might be able to remember the face. to the name of Haensch wear glasses?
A I could not say that. That much I do not know. That, of course, one cannot remember.
Q Well, why didn't you remember the glasses. That's part of the picture of a person's face, if he wears glasses? him with or without glasses.
Q But you would remember whether he were glasses or not, wouldn't you, if you saw him twelve times?
A That I couldn't say.
Q (To the page) Please hand this to the witness. We had bettor use a pen. Please write on there the figures, "7, 2," and then the letters "p o l".
A (The witness did as requested.)
Q "P o l" Is that third letter an "1"?
Q Please write on here, the word, "Zehlendorf."
A (The witness did as requested.) I want to ask you to look once again in the defendants' box and tell me whether you are willing to state on your oath that there is anyone in that box that could be Haensch, the man who came to your boss's office for treatment, if there is anyone there, and can you state that on your oath?
11 Feb 1948_A_MSD_18_5_Arminger (Hildesheimer)
A No, under oath, I can't state that that is Dr. Haensch. totaling line on April 23 and then later wrote the figures "7, 2." Why does "7, 2" follow 23-4?
A. That was a treatment which was not charged for, and therefore it wasn't added in.
Q. Why wouldn't this item, "7,2" be above the totaling line, since it precedes it in date?
A. That is a treatment which is not charged for and therefore it is not entered.
Q. Why don't you charge for polishing?
A. That is part of the treatment and it isn't charged for as a rule.
Q. What kind of a treatment was given prior to polishing? Some fillings, a filling ?
A. Yes, yes, a filling was made.
Q. Yes, and after every filling, there is a polishing, isn't there?
A/ Yes, every patient is asked to come for a polishing,
Q. Now, please tell the Tribunal why there isn't a polishing entry after the fillings which were introduced on the last item of that card?
A. The patient probably did not appear again, otherwise it. would have been entered.
Q. And why didn't he appear?
A. That I. do not know.
Q. Well, he apprared for the first tine. Why didn't he appear the second time?
A. Every patient is asked after a filling has been made, to come again within the next eight days, to come again for polishing,
Q. You say, after eight days?
A. Yes.
Q. Is that right?
A. Well, that again depends -
Q. Tell me how many days intervened?
A. A few days. In any case the patient is asked to come back.
Q. Tell me how many days intervened between January 14 and February, Is that eight days?
A. No.
Q. It is three weeks, isn't it?
A. Yes.
Q. Now-
A. It doesn't really matter, the date when the patient returns. I said every patient is asked to come back, but when he does come back it does not matter to us.
Q. Is polishing part of the job, part of the repair work?
A. Yes, it is important.
Q. It is important?
A. Yes, it is of considerable importance.
Q. Now, no patient goes to a dental parlor just for fun, does he? No one goes for entertainment purposes.
A. No.
Q. On the contrary, it is proverbial that one tried to avoid going to a dentist until the situation is such that he just must go. That's understood, isn't it?
A. Yes.
Q. But when a patient is confronted with the necessity of having his teeth attended to, then he goes, doesn't he?
A. Yes.
Q. Now, this patient was so much concerned about his teeth in February 1942 that he came back for that polishing process, didn't he?
A. I don't know whether he worried, but in any case he was there.
Q. He came. The record shows he came.
A. He must have been there. Otherwise the entry would not have been made.
Q. Now, can you explain to us what process of reasoning caused this patient not to come for those other fillings in 1943?
A. I do not know.
Q. The same doctor, the same patient, the same clerk, the same kind of work. Yet he reacted differently, when it came to the two fillings which were introduced. You have no explanation for that?
A. We cannot go and fetch the patients by force, if they don't come back for polishing, It happens quite often.
Q. Did you send the police after him to come back on February
Q. Did you send the fire department for him to have his teeth polished on February 7?
A. No.
Q. No came voluntarily, didn't he?
A. Obviously.
Q. Do you know why he didn't cone voluntarily a few months later
A. No, that I do not know.
Q. Is ther any other item on here that doesn't call for payment?
A. Ho. I would have to look at the card again. I would have to see it again.
Q. All right. Please look at the card and tell me if there are any otheritems there which do not call for payment.
A. Yes, there is a trepanation, so-called, which I never charge for, in the first treatment, that is, there follows either an extraction of -
Q. Let us see the card.
A. Where there is an extraction.
Q. What did you call that treatment?
A. A drilling. It is a drilling of the teeth, an opening of the tooth.
Q. And you don't charge for that?
A. No, if the patient returns, it is charged only very rarely and that again depends, as I say, either the tooth can to treated again, or it is extracted.
Q. Now, witness, I would like you to have explain to us why it is that the address watch you wrote in January, 1938, was written with exactly the same ink that was used in the writing of the entry of 7th February. Now look at it very carefully and tell us why the same type of ink was used.
A. I cannot see that.
Q. Well, you see it is the same ink, Tell us why it happened to be the same ink.
A. I cannot see that.
Q. You say it isn't the same ink? Do you say it is not the same ink?
A. We had fountain pens, ink, and fountain pen ink.
Q. Well, please tell us Whether it is or is not the same ink.
A. I could not say that.
Q. You mean you can't tell us?
A. No.
Q. Or that it is not the same ink.
A. I could not tell you.
Q. You say you don't know whether it is the same ink or not?
A. I could not say whether that is the same ink.
Q. Well, then, it could be the sane ink?
A. Moll, that is impossible, becasue -
Q. witness, just a moment. Just a moment. I asked you first if you know whether it is the same ink or not. How answer that ques tion.
A. It cannot be the same ink, because I only wrote the address now, in January 1948.
Q. That is the only reason you give?
A. Yes.
Q. All right. Let's see that, please. Now, when you made these entries on the card, did you usually dip from the same ink well?
A. No, We had fountain pens and I had a pen and ink and very often we used different fountain pens.
Q. How many fountain pens did you have?
A. No, fountain pens and one ordinary pen and ink.
Q. So that you had three different types of pens?
A. Yes.
Q. All right, now, please tell us why from 16 November 1941 to the lit of January 1942 you used always the some pen and ink and then suddenly on February 7, decided to use another pen and other ink? Tell us why you made that change?
A. Often another pen was used. First there is a pencil mark. It has been written in pencil first, as a matter of fact, and then it has been added in ink. Dr. Maennel had another fountain pen, perhaps, that was just lying about. I couldn't say.
Q. You used the boss's fountain pen also?
A. Yes, also on occasion, when it was there, it was also used.
Q. Yes, and how many times did you use the boss's fountain pen?
A. I only say, when it was lying about, when he forget to put it in his pocket, of course, it was used.
Q. And was it with the boss's pen that you wrote this entry of February 7?
A. I made the entry.
Q. Was it with his pen?
A. That I couldn't say today, what land of fountain pen that was.
THE PRESIDENT: The witness will not be allowed to speak to anyone during the recess which will take place for fifteen minutes.
( A recess was taken.)
THE MARSHAL: The Tribunal is again in session.
Q. (By the President) Witness, the month of April follows the month of February, doesn't it?
A. I beg your pardon?
Q. The month of April is later in the year than February -February, March, April?
A. Yes.
Q. So that if you would make an entry in February anywhere on a sheet of paper, an entry made two months later would be lower down on the sheet ordinarily, wouldn't it? That's right, isn't it, ordinarily speaking?
A. Yes, yes.
Q. All right. Now you recall on this card that you sent out the bill on April 23, but yet the item of Feb, 7 does not appear before April 23. That is correct, isn't it?
A. I would have to look at it first.
Q. Look at it. The item of February 7, does not precede the item of April 23 in point of deapth on the sheet.
A. Well, it is on the same line.
Q. On the same line? Very well. Let me have that. You didn't give that an item a line by itself, did you, a line by itself?
A. No, this is a treatment which is not charged for.
Q. And therefore you did not give it a full line?
A. No.
Q. That is the reason you did not give it a full line, because you didn't charge for it?
A. Yes.
Q. Now, please, explain to us why you gave a full line to the first item for which you didn't charge anything either? You have a full line there, haven't you, for that first item?
A. Yes, this was done in October, 1942 already.
Q. But you gave it a full line?
A. Well, another treatment was necessary for that tooth.
Q. But you gave it a full line and placed a diagonal in the space which you usually reserved for the price, correct?
A. I don't quite understand what you mean here.
Q. I will call your attention to the first item for which you say there was no charge. Although there is no charge you did make a mark. You placed a symbol of some land within the column intended ordinarily for the price, is that correct?
A. Yes, for this treatment in October, the extraction was char. for.
Q. Well, you do not charge for the first item, do you? You told us that before recess.
A. Yes.
Q. All right, but at the end of the line you placed a mark. like that, a diagonal, which indicates no price, is that correct? Please look at that first line, the first item. Do you see that?
A. Are you talking about the treatment in October?
Q. The first item.
A. During the first treatment, yes, I see it now.
Q. All right. In the column which ordinarily carries the cost of the treatment, you only have a diagonal, like this?
A. Yes.
Q. That means there is no charge, for that, is that right?
A. Yes.
Q. Now, please tell us why you didn't make the same kind of a symbol on February 7, for another item which did not call for payment?
A. Well, in the case of the first drilling, the first treatmen, the treatment was continued, the tooth was treated after that.
Q. But when you administered the polishing treatment of Febuary 7, you have not yet decided to charge the man, because the bill didn't go out until April 23, so why didn't you carry the item across the shoot and make the same kind of a mark, as you did above?
A. Well, the treatment had been concluded then. I did not have to do that. Here in this case, the treatment had been concluded and therefore I made the account for the treatment and this entry of the 7th of February then came on the sane line at the totaling.
Q. But the totaling did not come, the totaling did not come immediately. It was two months later, two and a half months later.
A. Yes.
Q. So, therefore, you had plenty of space to put this same kind of a mark, didn't you?
A. Yes.
Q. You didn't know that the patient night not return again in February or March or the first part of April. You had no way of knowing whether he would come back or not?
A. Yes.
Q. So that you wouldn't total the figures until you were ready to send out the bill, would you?
A. No.
Q. Then it is incomprehensible to me why you would have this totaling line which refers to April 23 above the item of February 7.
A. Well, I just said, because it was not charged for, I did not include it.
Q. Very well. Now, you treated from 80 to 100 -- Well, first let me ask you about this last treatment again. Please look at that.
A. What is that' last treatment?
Q. The last one on the card.
A. Those are fillings, two fillings.
Q. Two fillings?
A. Yes.
Q. Now, how much time would the dentist spend with a patient to take care of two fillings?
A. That all depends.
Q. Well, generally.
A. It depends on what kind of a tooth it is, what is the matter with it, how bad it is.
Q. What would be the minimum of time to do one filling?
A. Well, one cannot really say. It depends entirely on the tooth. This was a treatment of the root. There are teeth which take months to treat.
Q. Well, I am only speaking of one visit. Would it last about a half an hour?
A. Well that depends on how long the patient has to wait. We work according to a time schedule, but one can't always keep to that.
Q. Now, please look at that card and indicate generally, since I preseme you are failiar with the various treatments, how much time the patient was in the chair each time he came there.
A. Two fillings?
Q. Two fillings, how long for two fillings?
A. Twenty minutes. Well, that depends again on how much has to be drilled.
Q. All right, and how long for a polishing process?
A. That is very quick, the polishing doesn't take long at all.
Q. Fifteen minutes?
A. No.
Q. Ten minutes?
A. No.
Q. What hind of polishing did you give?
A. Ton minutes or eight minutes, not longer than that.
Q. All right. How much time for the trapaning process which you mentioned, that first item?
A. A trepanation, yes.
Q. A trepanation, yes.
A. That all depends how bad the pain is, what kind of pain the patient has.
Q. You have to drill through a crown, don't you?
A. Yes, the filling has to be taken out first or the crown has to be drilled open, and then it depends.
Q. That would take about a half hour, wouldn't it, for a process of that kind?
A. Well, it is hard to say. Sometimes it is very quick. If the channel is quite free and one can got at the root very easily then it is very quick, but sometimes it takes at least half an hour. quarter of an hour or twenty minutes.
Q. All right, let's say twenty minutes on the average, although that sounds pretty rapid. Take the next item on that card, what is it?
A. That is a temporary filling.
Q. How long would that take, about fifteen or twenty minutes ?
A. Well, for the first temporary filling it takes about ten minutes, but then the channel has to be cleaned up again.
Q. Well, you would say that on the average at least fifteen minutes was given to a visit, wouldn't you? You have one a half hour, another twenty minutes, another ten minutes. A pretty fair agerage would be -
A. No, it is not always like that. Yes, but there are eases when it only takes two minutes or where the temporary filling can be changed very quickly.
Q. It takes two minutes?
A. Every treatment varies.
Q. It takes two minutes just to get in and out of the chair. Tell me what treatment you can dispose of in -
A. Well, I am only talking about the temporary fillings as such done by the doctor.
Q. You tell me what treatment it is that can be done in two minutes. I would, like to know who this dentist is because that is pretty rapid treatment. Tell me what treatment you can do in two minutes?
A. Well, it is very quick. For example, when one changes a temporary filling that is very quick.
Q. You can do that in two minutes?
A. Two to three minutes.
Q. You can do that in three -
A. From the time when the doctor starts.
Q. Hell, altogether from the time that the patient arrives in the office and leaves the office, how much time would expire on the average?
A. Ten minutes.
Q. Ten minutes?
A. Well, from the moment - when the patient sits down in the chair until the moment when he leaves the chair.
Q. That is ten minutes?
A. Ten minutes, on the average.
Q. That is on the average, yes. How many hours a day did you work; how many hours a day did you have your office open?
A. We worked all day. We hardly had. any break for lunch,
Q. Well, all right, how many hours would that be?
A. We started about a quarter to nine and mostly worked through the lunch hour until eight, eight-thirty every evening, every day.
Q. You didn't stop for lunch?
A. We just ate very quickly but then the patients already arrived again.
Q. And the dentist did not stop for lunch?
A. No, I just said hardly. There-were days when we were at rest for an hour but on the whole it was constant.
Q. Well, he would stop for lunch, wouldn't he?
A. Yes, we would eat, of course,
Q. And on the average how much time did you have for lunch perday?
A. Well, sometimes we didn't even have time to sit down because the bell was ringing again, There was nobody else there.
Q. Now, witness, you know that it is absolutely impossible to treat one hundred patients perday every day, day in and day out, allowing for only ten minutes, which is a very small average per patient.
You Know that is impossible, don't you?
A. Well, but there were so many patients.
Q. You treated eighty to one hundred patients every day?
A. Yes.
Q. Do you realize that on the basis of only ten minutes per patient you would have to work sixteen hours continuously per day?
A. Well, I said sometimes it is very quick with some patients. It doesn't even take ten minutes. It is hard to see that, but there were so many Patients.
Q. Well, there were some that would take a half hour?
A. Yes, because of extractions or injections and people who had to wait.
Q. Well, that would lengthen the average, wouldn't it?
A. No, it is vary quick, because the patients which get out again, they just get the injection and in the meantime we can go on treating someone else.
Q. Hay I have the card back? (The exhibit was handed back to the President.) How long did you speak with Mrs. Haensch before you came dorm here to testify?
A. How long?
Q. Yes.
A. Well, it was very quick. She just asked me whether the doctor could write out the certificate.
Q. Everything is done very quickly in your office, conversations, extractions, trepanations, polishings?
A. Certainly.
Q. Yes, and this addition was made very quickly too, wasn't it? this February 7th?
A. No, the additions are made in the evenings and sometimes I even made them on Sundays, I made the bills.
Q. This entry of February 7th was made when?
A. That was made when the patient was there 7 February.
Q. Did you always make the entry the same day that the treatment occurred?
A. Yes.
Q. Without fail?
A. Yes.
Q. Would you please indicate to me what you mean by this angular line which precedes every item? (Indicating)
A. Well, that is the statement concerning the tooth, whether it is on the right or the left or the upper of the lower, and the figure is contained in it.
Q. Well, what does that mean when it is like this (indicting)?
A. That is the left top.
Q. That means the left top. All right.
A. Yes, the left top.
Q. Yes. Now, please tell us which tooth it was which was polished?
A. Well, it was that tooth that had been filled.
Q. Well, left or right, left top, right top?
A. The one that had been treated before.
Q. well, how do you know that?
A. Well, if the tooth is to be polished then only that one is polished which Dr. Maennel has filled.
Q. Do you use this with each item (indicting)?
A. No.
Q. When did you use it and when did you omit it?
A. When that tooth is treated.
Q. When do you use it and when do you omit it? How do you decide when to use this angle and when not to use it?
A. When a tooth is treated the angle is entered and then when it is polished it is not necessary to do so because we know which tooth is to be polished, which one we have filled.
Q. Suppose that you do a trepanation job and then the patient comes back for treatment of that same tooth, do you use the angle?
A. For a trepanation, yes.
Q. When he comes back a second time, do you use that angle?
A. Yes.
Q. Well, you know it is the same tooth, why must you use the mark?
A. Well, for temporary fillings, etc., it is necessary. One just does it.
Q. Well, you use this mark in order to identify a tooth, don't you?
A. Yes.
Q. And you would use that each time the patient arrived, wouldn't you?
A. Yes.
Q. To identify the tooth?
A. Yes.
Q. Well, please tell me why you don't have it as against the February 7th item?
A. Well, this is a polishing operation and we know that Dr. Maennel had treated that tooth.
Q. Well, you knew what he had done in those other instances. It was always the same tooth. Why did you need to identify it each time when it was always the same tooth but yet omit it on the February 7th item?
A. Well, it was never entered for polishing the tooth; the tooth is never marked.
Q. Well, you are merely saying that doesn't explain it. A person comes in end he must have, let us say, the upper seventh -- just to give some number. He gets & treatment, then he comes back again. It is still the upper seventh and you use that line in every instance, don't you?
A. Yes.
Q. How would you compare it against the February 7th item?
A. Well, when it is polished it is not a marked specifically.
Q. He still has to know which tooth to polish, doesn't he?
A. Well, we know. It is written above that.
Q. Well, in those other instances, it is Written above else. Let's have the card. Now take this item of 1 November 1941. Then it is followed by the item of 13th of November. Tell me whether it is the same tooth. Does the second item refer to the same tooth as the first item?
A. Yes.
Q. Why do you use the angle then? You know it is the same tooth.
A. Well, these matters -- those are temporary fillings, etc. and that is usual. That is what one does for fillings and temporary fillings. It is usual that the tooth is marked.
Q. Well when a patient comes in to have a cert in tooth polished because some work had been done to that tooth, the dentist has to know which tooth, doesn't he? He just doesn't polish any tooth at random.
A. No. When a patient comes and asks us that this tooth is to be polished because it is sharp, then the doctor does it but after a continuous treatment, it is not necessary because it is not charged for and it is not usual that the tooth is marked. One simply writes "polishing".
Q. Then your explanation is, the reason you do not use this angle mark is because there Was no charge for it, is that right?