Q So you have told us now that you found the card. Who asked you to look for the card, please?
A Mrs. Haensch arrived and asked whether Dr. Maennel would perhaps make out a certificate to the effect that Haensch in 1942 had been treated by Dr. Maennel, and I said, "He will do so if this card index card can be found." Thereupon I looked for the card.
Q When was that, please?
A I cannot give a date. That must have been beginning of January?
Q How long did it take you to find the card?
AAbout three-quarters of an hour. I am sure it took as long as that.
Q That did you do then when you had found the card?
A I put it into a folder and told Dr. Maennel that I put the card there, he could now make out the testimonial. found the card and you have put the card to Dr. Maennel?
Q I am sorry, would you re cat your answer. I did not follow. and nobody over got it except Dr. Maennel. the stand that all the entries which were made on this card were made by you and were made on the dates indicated on the card, is that correct? word "telephone" and then look please to the entry of 7 February 1942. Is it not apparent from the card that these two entries were made by a person different from the person who made the other entries? for me. It may be her entry.
Q Witness, please, you did not answer my question. I asked you whether it is not apparent that the third line, the address or the word which is written opposite the printed ward "telephone" and the entry of 7 February 1942 are written by a person different from those or those who have made other entries on the card?
Q And who made then the other entries?
AAll the entries are mine. I only said on the 26th November that is probably the handwriting of my sister who might have taken my place for once.
Q 26th November of what year? all entries were made by you is not correct? 26/11 -- November -- that probably was made by my sister.
Q Did you see the card when you made this affidavit? entries yourself if you knew that one of the entries at least was made by somebody else than by you?
A I did not see that. It did not strike me at all. Did you know when you made the affidavit for what purpose this affidavit was made? card, is that correct? line or opposite the printed word "telephone" and the entry of 7 February 1942?
Q Did you make these entries?
Q When did you make this entry?
A "Svenhedin Blatz". I wrote myself after Mrs. Haensch had come to see me and given me the new address, that was in January this year.
Q And did you write the entry of 7 February?
AAfter the patient had been there. When the patient was actually treated.
after the visit of Mrs. Haensch? wrote the word "SvenhedinBlatz" with the same ink and at the same time also made the entry which allegedly was made on the 7th of February 1942?
A No, after Mrs. Haensch came to see me I wrote "SvenhedinBlatz". in January 1948?
A I don't understand. January 1948?
MR. HOCHWALD: I have no further questions, your Honor.
THE PRESIDENT: May I see that card, please? BY THE PRESIDENT: word "telephone"?
A No. The address after the word "telephone" I wrote myself.
Q And when did you write that?
AAfter Mrs. Haensch had come.
Q Why did Mrs. Haensch tell you to add that -- what explanation did she give to you which caused you to write this in -- What did she say to you -- why was it necessary to add that address? Maennel was to be sent there by post and therefore she told us they were living somewhere else now, therefore, I put it in pencil on an envelope and when I found the card I added that.
Q Well, did Mrs. Haensch tell you to add this to the card?
Q Well, we still don't understand why it was necessary tto add that address to the card. to Mrs. Haensch. I had written the address on an envelope and generally one throws these envelopes away, and therefore I put it on the card.
Q Well, why didn't you give the card to her when she was there?
A I hand't found it then. It was only the next day that I went upstairs and looked for the card.
Q Well, then did you mail it to her?
A No. Mrs. came here to fetch the letter. she was going to call for it personally?
A I didn't know that she would come. She actually did come on the next but one day and the letter had not been made yet. were to mail the card to her?
A No, not the card, only the letter by Dr. Maennel -- the --the medical certificate which she had asked for, that is what she wanted.
Q The affidavit you mean?
A No, only the letter to the effect that Dr. Haensch had been treated in 1942. card which had nothing to do with the mailing of the certificate? the-way on this envelope, I also put it on this card. There is nothing unusual about it, I just put it there. manent record? address and they tell us about these addresses, we put them on the index card.
add this item of February 7?
Q Which entry was made by your sister?
THE PRESIDENT: Let her point it out and then show me. BY THE PRESIDENT:
Q How many other entries were made by anybody else?. thing also on the card was written by you?
Q Is that correct?
Q Now, you remembered Dr. Haensch coming there for treatment, do you? Do you remember that Walter Haensch came there for treatment in 1941, 1942, and 1943?
AAfter Frau Haensch had said whether Dr. Maennel would make out a medical certificate, I assumed that the patients had been there and therefore I looked for the card index card.
Q Well, then after you had spoken with Mrs. Haensch, did you recall Haensch having been there for treatment? activity "Dr. Walter Haensch" then with the address "is known to me"-why did you say that if he wasn't known to you? out the affidavit and therefore I knew, as I had written it myself, that Dr. Haensch had been treated, only from this card.
Q Did you remember his first name?
A No. The first name, if it was not contained on the index card, I did not know it.
Q Well, this affidavit says that Haensch was known to you. Do you mean that?
A I only know Dr. Haensch from the treatment he received.
Q Well, then you do know that Haensch came there for treatment? had been there.
Q Then you know that Haensch had come there for treatment? A Yes. three years, about 12 times, is that right? for one treatment?
Q Well, I said "the average", would you say that this was more than the average or less than the average, you were treating from 80 to 100 patients per day, weren't you? repeat? days until the treatment had been completed. times one patient would be treated before his treatment was complete?
A Roughly throe to four times. That depends on what is wrong. per day, do you realize how many visits there would be in a year's time? Say, on the average of 90 per day, let us say 300 days per year. Do you realize into what figure that goes?
A I. Yes.
Q And over a period of 3 years that would 81,000 visits wouldn't it?
A Well, now, of course, patients kept returning. They are not always now patients. one patient would have before his treatment would be completed and you told me on the average of 3 or 4 treatments. treated, then he has to return 4 to 5 times; if, of course, he has pain again after about 8 weeks -- well, of course, that is very difficult to say.
Q Very well, now you have a recollection of Haensch, haven't you, of Haensch coming there during 1941, 1942, and 1943 -- you remember his coming there, don't you?
A I don't remember it now, but he must have been there because I made the entries on the index card, other wise, the index card would not even exist.
11 Feb 1948_A_MSD_18_1_Arminger (Hildesheimer) as an ink entry -- as an individual -- do you remember hin as a person, Haensch, coming there for treatment?
A That is difficult to say. I could perhaps say that he was a tall man, but it is too long ago and I can't say for certain, The name, when Mrs. Haensch came for this, I did know that Haensch had come once for treatment. The name was known to me.
Q Then you do remember him? according to these figures, at least 20,000 people, you remember that Haensch is a tall man. Is that what you are telling us?
A I cannot say with certainty. I do not know. not recall Haensch as a man, not as an entry.
Q You don't have any mental image of him? him in the defendants' box. One often sees faces and one believes to have seen then before because very often I do recognize the patients in the office, and especially when I hear their names later on and. when I see the patients. I can remember when former patients of the year 1939 and 1940 returned again. In our business one does remember them.
Q Look at the defendants' box. Is it the first man in the first row? Is that Haensch over there, the rather handsome man, smiling?
A It is possible, but I do not know. I really do not know.
Q Is it the first man in the second row?
A No, that is quite impossible. It couldn't be he.
Q Is it the second man?
11 Feb 1948_A_MSD_18_2_Arminger (Hildesheimer)
Q Is it the thrid man?
A I really couldn't tell you. No, it is not Haensch. It isn't he either.
Q Well, is it the fourth man?
Q Look very closely in the defendants' box now and see if you can recognize him.
Q The third in the first row?
A No, against the wall. It is the second row, Your Honor.
Q The third from where?
Q There are two rows. The first or the second row? image of this person? when they return after years, hut I just saw him for the first time now without the glasses and I assume that is Dr. Haensch. you remember this man as being Haensch?
A I assume that it is he, but I couldn't say with certainty. man?
A No. not by any means. there, the man you have identified?
A No, that I couldn't do. person whom you are trying to recall?
11 Feb 1948_A_MSD_18_3_Arminger (Hildesheimer) am not sure.
Q Which one is that?
Q The fourth from the end?
Q Now, what makes you think that he is Haensch?
A I couldn't tell you. mind, because you couldn't make these comparisons unless you had a prototype to draw from. Now tell us from your memory just what Haensch looked like.
A From the treatment that I can't actually say today. I only said that it is possible to recognize a face.
Q All right, now, you have given us two possible people. Look a little bit further. See if there is anyone else there that looks like the image you have in mind. before.
Q Which one?
Q And how about the fourth?
A I seem to recognize that face too, but I couldn't say.
Q Now, why can't you identify Haensch in that defendants' dock, when you saw his picture just a few days ago?
Q You looked at his picture before you came here to Nurnberg. Mrs Haensch showed it to you.
Q You haven't seen a picture of the man that you think is Haensch at all in your life?
11 Feb 1948_A_MSD_18_4_Arminger (Hildesheimer) saw over a period of three years, that you can recall one individual person? again after years; people who have been patients in 1939, if one sees the fact again, one can remember when one sees that face again, and, if the patients also say that they have been treated before, then one might be able to remember the face. to the name of Haensch wear glasses?
A I could not say that. That much I do not know. That, of course, one cannot remember.
Q Well, why didn't you remember the glasses. That's part of the picture of a person's face, if he wears glasses? him with or without glasses.
Q But you would remember whether he were glasses or not, wouldn't you, if you saw him twelve times?
A That I couldn't say.
Q (To the page) Please hand this to the witness. We had bettor use a pen. Please write on there the figures, "7, 2," and then the letters "p o l".
A (The witness did as requested.)
Q "P o l" Is that third letter an "1"?
Q Please write on here, the word, "Zehlendorf."
A (The witness did as requested.) I want to ask you to look once again in the defendants' box and tell me whether you are willing to state on your oath that there is anyone in that box that could be Haensch, the man who came to your boss's office for treatment, if there is anyone there, and can you state that on your oath?
11 Feb 1948_A_MSD_18_5_Arminger (Hildesheimer)
A No, under oath, I can't state that that is Dr. Haensch. totaling line on April 23 and then later wrote the figures "7, 2." Why does "7, 2" follow 23-4?
A. That was a treatment which was not charged for, and therefore it wasn't added in.
Q. Why wouldn't this item, "7,2" be above the totaling line, since it precedes it in date?
A. That is a treatment which is not charged for and therefore it is not entered.
Q. Why don't you charge for polishing?
A. That is part of the treatment and it isn't charged for as a rule.
Q. What kind of a treatment was given prior to polishing? Some fillings, a filling ?
A. Yes, yes, a filling was made.
Q. Yes, and after every filling, there is a polishing, isn't there?
A/ Yes, every patient is asked to come for a polishing,
Q. Now, please tell the Tribunal why there isn't a polishing entry after the fillings which were introduced on the last item of that card?
A. The patient probably did not appear again, otherwise it. would have been entered.
Q. And why didn't he appear?
A. That I. do not know.
Q. Well, he apprared for the first tine. Why didn't he appear the second time?
A. Every patient is asked after a filling has been made, to come again within the next eight days, to come again for polishing,
Q. You say, after eight days?
A. Yes.
Q. Is that right?
A. Well, that again depends -
Q. Tell me how many days intervened?
A. A few days. In any case the patient is asked to come back.
Q. Tell me how many days intervened between January 14 and February, Is that eight days?
A. No.
Q. It is three weeks, isn't it?
A. Yes.
Q. Now-
A. It doesn't really matter, the date when the patient returns. I said every patient is asked to come back, but when he does come back it does not matter to us.
Q. Is polishing part of the job, part of the repair work?
A. Yes, it is important.
Q. It is important?
A. Yes, it is of considerable importance.
Q. Now, no patient goes to a dental parlor just for fun, does he? No one goes for entertainment purposes.
A. No.
Q. On the contrary, it is proverbial that one tried to avoid going to a dentist until the situation is such that he just must go. That's understood, isn't it?
A. Yes.
Q. But when a patient is confronted with the necessity of having his teeth attended to, then he goes, doesn't he?
A. Yes.
Q. Now, this patient was so much concerned about his teeth in February 1942 that he came back for that polishing process, didn't he?
A. I don't know whether he worried, but in any case he was there.
Q. He came. The record shows he came.
A. He must have been there. Otherwise the entry would not have been made.
Q. Now, can you explain to us what process of reasoning caused this patient not to come for those other fillings in 1943?
A. I do not know.
Q. The same doctor, the same patient, the same clerk, the same kind of work. Yet he reacted differently, when it came to the two fillings which were introduced. You have no explanation for that?
A. We cannot go and fetch the patients by force, if they don't come back for polishing, It happens quite often.
Q. Did you send the police after him to come back on February
Q. Did you send the fire department for him to have his teeth polished on February 7?
A. No.
Q. No came voluntarily, didn't he?
A. Obviously.
Q. Do you know why he didn't cone voluntarily a few months later
A. No, that I do not know.
Q. Is ther any other item on here that doesn't call for payment?
A. Ho. I would have to look at the card again. I would have to see it again.
Q. All right. Please look at the card and tell me if there are any otheritems there which do not call for payment.
A. Yes, there is a trepanation, so-called, which I never charge for, in the first treatment, that is, there follows either an extraction of -
Q. Let us see the card.
A. Where there is an extraction.
Q. What did you call that treatment?
A. A drilling. It is a drilling of the teeth, an opening of the tooth.
Q. And you don't charge for that?
A. No, if the patient returns, it is charged only very rarely and that again depends, as I say, either the tooth can to treated again, or it is extracted.
Q. Now, witness, I would like you to have explain to us why it is that the address watch you wrote in January, 1938, was written with exactly the same ink that was used in the writing of the entry of 7th February. Now look at it very carefully and tell us why the same type of ink was used.
A. I cannot see that.
Q. Well, you see it is the same ink, Tell us why it happened to be the same ink.
A. I cannot see that.
Q. You say it isn't the same ink? Do you say it is not the same ink?
A. We had fountain pens, ink, and fountain pen ink.
Q. Well, please tell us Whether it is or is not the same ink.
A. I could not say that.
Q. You mean you can't tell us?
A. No.
Q. Or that it is not the same ink.
A. I could not tell you.
Q. You say you don't know whether it is the same ink or not?
A. I could not say whether that is the same ink.
Q. Well, then, it could be the sane ink?
A. Moll, that is impossible, becasue -
Q. witness, just a moment. Just a moment. I asked you first if you know whether it is the same ink or not. How answer that ques tion.
A. It cannot be the same ink, because I only wrote the address now, in January 1948.
Q. That is the only reason you give?
A. Yes.
Q. All right. Let's see that, please. Now, when you made these entries on the card, did you usually dip from the same ink well?
A. No, We had fountain pens and I had a pen and ink and very often we used different fountain pens.
Q. How many fountain pens did you have?
A. No, fountain pens and one ordinary pen and ink.
Q. So that you had three different types of pens?
A. Yes.
Q. All right, now, please tell us why from 16 November 1941 to the lit of January 1942 you used always the some pen and ink and then suddenly on February 7, decided to use another pen and other ink? Tell us why you made that change?
A. Often another pen was used. First there is a pencil mark. It has been written in pencil first, as a matter of fact, and then it has been added in ink. Dr. Maennel had another fountain pen, perhaps, that was just lying about. I couldn't say.
Q. You used the boss's fountain pen also?
A. Yes, also on occasion, when it was there, it was also used.
Q. Yes, and how many times did you use the boss's fountain pen?
A. I only say, when it was lying about, when he forget to put it in his pocket, of course, it was used.
Q. And was it with the boss's pen that you wrote this entry of February 7?
A. I made the entry.
Q. Was it with his pen?
A. That I couldn't say today, what land of fountain pen that was.
THE PRESIDENT: The witness will not be allowed to speak to anyone during the recess which will take place for fifteen minutes.
( A recess was taken.)
THE MARSHAL: The Tribunal is again in session.
Q. (By the President) Witness, the month of April follows the month of February, doesn't it?
A. I beg your pardon?
Q. The month of April is later in the year than February -February, March, April?
A. Yes.
Q. So that if you would make an entry in February anywhere on a sheet of paper, an entry made two months later would be lower down on the sheet ordinarily, wouldn't it? That's right, isn't it, ordinarily speaking?
A. Yes, yes.
Q. All right. Now you recall on this card that you sent out the bill on April 23, but yet the item of Feb, 7 does not appear before April 23. That is correct, isn't it?
A. I would have to look at it first.
Q. Look at it. The item of February 7, does not precede the item of April 23 in point of deapth on the sheet.
A. Well, it is on the same line.
Q. On the same line? Very well. Let me have that. You didn't give that an item a line by itself, did you, a line by itself?
A. No, this is a treatment which is not charged for.
Q. And therefore you did not give it a full line?
A. No.
Q. That is the reason you did not give it a full line, because you didn't charge for it?
A. Yes.
Q. Now, please, explain to us why you gave a full line to the first item for which you didn't charge anything either? You have a full line there, haven't you, for that first item?