A. The responsibility that the facts in the commando reports were correct lay with the commando leader.
Q. Answer my question, Colonel. You accepted them as a truth and put them in a report?
A. Yes, of course.
Q. Thank you.
A. Because I had no possibility to investigate further, and it was not my job.
Q. Now, as a matter of policy, did you while General Ohlendorf was absent, during this period, authorize any rewards or grant any special privileges to those Crimeans who denounced Jews to the Einsatzkommandos?
A. No.
Q. Do you know whether any rewards were given to denunciators by the commando leaders?
A. This is completely new to me.
Q. You don't know then, in other words; is that your answer?
A. I cannot know this because the manner in which the commandos did its work in its execution missions was not known to me.
Q. Let's go on to the paragraph relating the facts about the burgomaster of Kutschka-Eli and a communist woman president of the town council; that is the last sentence on page 41, Your Honors. Now, your report follows: Five main communists who were rendered harmless. Does this mean that they were killed?
A. Pardon me, Mr. Prosecutor, are these the five communists headed by the name Ibraimow?
Q. Yes, together with the burgomaster, and the communist woman president of the town council. Were these people all rendered harmless and, if so, what does the term rendered harmless mean to you?
A. Pardon me; I don't find the place where the word harmless is mentioned.
Q. Towards the latter half, latter third of page 3 of the original; just before the names, the five names given.
A. Page 3 of the original is missing here. It says page 1, page 4, page 6, etc.
Q. All right. You see the name Ibraimow, do you not, for it says on page 6 -
A. Yes, on page 6.
Q. Well, what does the sentence just prior to that list of names read?
A. There it says of leading communists the following were rendered harmless.
Q. Yes, now I want to know what that term means to you.
A. In this case the matter is completely clear, because on the top of page 7 the sentence had been added and shows that these people were publicly hanged.
Q. Who ordered their deaths?
A. I do not know. As far as I know, through the reports, I cannot say, but if it is a matter of a public hanging, it could have never happened without the town commandant of the army for the town in which this happened having ordered the commando to do it.
Q. Is there any proof?
A. But I do not know.
Q. Was any proof offered to you that these five in fact did hold a position that you gave in your report?
A. No, in this form I merely incorporated the reports of this commando report in the report.
Q. Why was the execution of these five individuals so important that you felt you had to give their names and their position in your report?
A. It was not neither my job to investigate not could I see this.
Q. Did you usually give the names of all the executed persons in your reports?
A. No.
Q. All right, Colonel, let's go to page 6 of the original. This has to do with the punitive action against the village of Laki, which is on page 45 -- your Honors -just before the middle of the page. Have you found the place where on the 23rd of March, in collaboration with the Wehrmacht, the punitive action was carried out against the village of Laki; on page 6 of the original report.
A. Yes, I found the place.
Q. Who ordered this action?
A. There are two possibilities according to what I read, here, for I do not know any more than that. First of all it could have been ordered by the leader of the army unit there; secondly, it could have been ordered by the Kommando Leader 11-A, which was in Bachtschissaraij.
Q. Who reported this fact to you?
A. This report came from the Kommando 11-A.
Q. Now, your report states that fifteen persons were involved in the giving of aid to partisans and were shot; and the rest of the population evacuated and the village burned to the ground. Were other homes or places of shelter provided for these people whose homes were completely destroyed?
A. I do not know, and I cannot know, Mr. Prosecutor, because I wasn't in this place at all where this happened. I don't know the town Laik at all.
Q. Did the reports state any provision for the people who were evacuated from their homes before they were burned?
A. I cannot say; I do not know.
Q. Did the reports state how many people from the village of Laki were made homeless by this action?
A. I cannot assume it because otherwise it would say so.
Q. Did the fifteen persons executed have any kind of trial before a court prior to their execution?
A. Mr. Prosecutor, to all these questions I can only repeat one answer. I do not know these events from my own knowledge. I did not have the job to investigate them. Therefore, I cannot know whether a trial was given here by the Kommando leader.
Q. All right; let's pass on to page 8 of the original, the paragraph headed Roman II, which is on page 46 -- Your Honors. Now then, this paragraph is headed planned further assignments of kommando detachments. Way would this go into the reports unless you in the absence of General Ohlendorf had the right or the power to order the kommandos to carry out these assignments?
A. This was put in here because this decision was up to the army alone.
Q. Well, if the decision was up to the army alone, they knew what they were going to do with the kommandos. Why would it be necessary for you to cite in your report the future assignments of the five sub-units of Einsatzgruppe D?
A. Because the kommandos mentioned in their reports, for example, the Special Kommando 11-A had reported that it would now transfer its headquarters from Bachtschissaraij to to Kokosi, and this was mentioned in these reports.
Q. Did they have to receive approval from the headquarters of the Einsatzgruppe D before they could make this transfer?
A. As a rule it was done with the approval of the chief of the Einsatzgruppe.
Q. Yes, but during the period 16th of April, and for some time after that, General Ohlendorf was absent, either on leave or on business in Berlin when you wrote this report on the middle of April. Now, who had to make the approval?
A. His Kommando leaders were his representatives, there was no condition without any order; if the army had not been agreeable, then via the liaison officer it would have called up the Kommando 11-A and said that the Kommando was to stay at that one place.
it was well known to the army and well known to the Kommando leaders and the staff had nothing to do with it? Why was it necessary for you to put it in the report?
A That was customary; it was done this way at all times in all reports; it could have been omitted just as well.
Q So it served no purpose for you to put this in the report? Did it serve a purpose of any kind for you to put it in the report? Kommando was in case the army officer did not yet have this information. of them. We will leave that. The next thing I want you to do is to point out for the Tribunal in this report any statement made by you which concerned your field of domestic questions of economy, or of agriculture, or the morale of the population. Point out one statement in that report which was definitely in the field you have stated was yours.
A The spheres which you have just mentioned, Mr. Prosecutor, is my sphere as Chief III for the SD reports; as my second sphere, of all the summarizing of these reports; secondly, the partisan reconnaissance; and thirdly, the working on the military decorations.
THE PRESIDENT: You didn't answer Mr. Walton's question, or rather, you did not do what he asked you to do. economics or of the field which I mentioned as Chief III as far as I can see. BY MR. WALTON: Einsatzkommandos of Einsatzgruppe D, were you not?
of them, were you not? important or secret matters if the kommando leaders reported to the chief personally -- which happened very frequently.
Q You didn't know of important or secret matters; is that correct?
A I did not mean to say that. Of course I knew about secret matters, but I cannot say that I heard about all secret or top secret matters, for I have already mentioned that during conferences with the commanding general of the army, between him and Ohlendorf, I was never present during these conferences. the English, page 1 of the German, document Book III-D, Sir, I am sorry, Document Book III-D, page 1 of the English, page 1 of the German, which is Document No. NO-2856, Prosecution's Exhibit 148; specifically to paragraph 2, the sentence there which reads at the end of page 1 of the original. Seibert had full access to all secret files, including those which were designated as top secret. I am sorry, Colonel, I thought you had it in your hands.
Let me repeat: In paragraph 2, toward the end of page 1 of the original, the sentence reads, and I quote: "Seibert had full access to all secret files, including those which were designated as top secret." Now, does not this sentence mean that you knew, as well as General Ohlendorf, all matters which concerned Einsatzgruppe D, or, certainly all official matters which concerned Einsatzgruppe D? far as the matters are concerned which are designated as secret, that I had access to them, but outside of secret documents there are matters which have not been laid down in the reports or orders, or there can be such things, so thus this does not exclude that I did not hear about those.
Q All right: let's go a little further down on page 2 of the original where General Ohlendorf says that Seibert was acquainted with all the duties and problems within the framework of Einsatzgruppe D. Only two people -- I am still reading from the affidavit -- could have complete knowledge of the number of executions which took place; namely, Seibert and myself.
Well, Colonel, was not the number of executions the most carefully guarded top secret of the affairs of the Einsatzgruppe D? I know.
Q All right; let's inquire into some of the reports from Berlin. Document Book II-D, please; II-D, page 8 of the German. Colonel, let me call your attention to Document Book II-D, page 8 of the German, page 9 of the English, which is Document No. NO-3159, and Prosecution's Exhibit 85. Now, this is a rather lengthy document, and on page 18 of the English copy -- I don't know exactly what page in the German, but it is on page 13 of the original, where the section of this RSHA report is devoted to the activities of Einsatzgruppe D. Will you kindly indicate when you have found this section of that document?
A Einsatzgruppe D begins on page 14 of the original; is that right in the German text? description. Right under the paragraph marked Einsatzgruppe D, it gives a location as being in Nikolajew. executions of 31,767. Did you report this figure to Berlin? were sent to Berlin. The situation and activity reports which were sent to Berlin contained at the end always the same sentence; during the time of the report so and so many people were executed. The number had been omitted in the report, and in this report which the signal man Fritsch made out, of course as a result of a dictation by me, or, by Ohlendorf, in this report he went into the signal room and from the reports of the Einsatzkommandos during the period that the report was covering, he took out the numbers and he added them for this period of the report, and this figure then was coded by him personally in the signal room, and did not appear in the written reports for reasons of secrecy; this had been ordered by Ohlendorf.
total number of executions that he was to send to Berlin?
room and were at the disposal there every day for his work. everything in the report, except the total number of executions? matter to get the total number and figure them up from the reports of the 5 kommandos and it was his sole responsibility to determine what these totals were and his sole responsibility to transmit this information to B erlin? signal man, Fritsch, just as any signal man who gets such a report for transmission. executions during your whole service with Einsatzgruppe D? have been done by Fritsch.
THE PRESIDENT: That wasn't the question which was put to you. Tour answer was an argument and not a response. Mr. Walton asked you if throughout your entire service you ever gave Fritsch the number of the executions.
THE WITNESS: No, he did not get a total figure from me.
THE PRESIDENT: At no time?
THE WITNESS: At no time, Your Honor.
THE PRESIDENT: Did you yourself know what number he then transmitted?
THE WITNESS: I knew the figure in the reports, Your Honor. Q (By Mr. Walton): Then I ask you a question on Document 3159, which is now before you.
Is that total of 31,767 the correct total for the date of the report? compiled in Berlin and many mistakes could have happened. You said that you knew the total figures in the report. All right, we'll see if we can refresh your memory further. Will you turn in the same Document Book II-D to page 25 of the German, page 20 of the English, to Document NO-2825, to a report from Einsatzgruppe D, as published by the RSHA in Berlin, which shows that by the 12th of December, 1941, the total executions performed by Einsatzgruppe D, are 54,696 persons. Is this a reasonably correct figure for that time?
A I cannot say, Mr. Prosecutor. Berlin figured that out.
Q All right. The first five documents in this document book -
THE PRESIDENT: Mr. Walton, I would like to know whether he is familiar with the sentence which preceded the sum total of executions.
MR. WALTON: Very good, Sir, I will inquire into that. Q (By Mr. Walton): Under the paragraph marked "Shootings" it says that 2,910 Jews, plus 19 Communist officials were shot. Where did Berlin get this fact? These figures could have been sent on to Berlin by the Einsatzgruppe, but whether these are the figures I cannot say. I mean to say by this that here mistakes might have cropped up, but these figures were sent by the Einsatzgruppe to Berlin. I merely cannot say whether these are the very figures.
also sent to Berlin?
Q How do you know it was not?
A Because this was never done. Fritsch had the job to add up the figures for all the kommandos for the period covered by the report, and a place would be left open for this figure on the report, but otherwise no figure was provided for. sent to Berlin, is that what you say? or a month period was sent to Berlin, were they not? 1941 to June 1942, how many people were executed by Einsatzgruppe D? reported figures correspond with those which were actually executed.
Q Forget the reports. From your general knowledge, you know that some people were executed by Einsatzgruppe D, do you not? an approximate figure from you as to how many people in your best estimate Einsatzgruppe D executed?
AAny figure I would mention would be incorrect. I didn't see all reports for I had a chief who worked himself and who often made out reports himself.
Therefore this would give a completely wrong picture, since I did not know any list where the figures were compiled. says in his same affidavit, which I have already called to your attention in Document Book III-D, page 1 of the German, page 1 of the English Document NO-2856, and Prosecution Exhibit 148. Let's go back to paragraph 2. "In rare cases only," says General Ohlendorf, "if very important reports had to be written, I dictated them myself and later informed Seibert of the contents as a routine matter." Is this statement true?
DR. GAWLIK (Attorney for the Defendant Seibert) Your Honor I would like to point out a translation mistake. In the German document it says "customarily". "I later informed Seibert customarily of the contents," and, as far as I have just heard, the word, "customarily" which is very important and gives the sentence an entirely different sense was not contained in the English.
MR. HORLICK HOCHWALD: If your Honor please, "as a routine matter" covers the word "ueblicherweise". I do think it is there in the translation.
THE PRESIDENT: Well, whatever was said, the affidavit which we have before us reads "and later informed Seibert of the contents as a routine matter." Now, "as a routine matter" is different from "customarily".
DR. GAWLICK: Yes.
THE PRESIDENT: "Customarily" would mean "generally". "As a routine matter" -- it would mean"without exception".
DR. GAWLICK: Yes.
THE PRESIDENT: Very well.
DR. GAWLICK: I ask then that this be corrected, Your Honor.
THE PRESIDENT: Well, I think that the discussion, as it has now taken place, up to this moment, will all appear in the transcript and therefore it will be clear just what was meant.
Q (By Mr. Walton): I ask you, Colonel, if this statement is correct that General Ohlendorf made?
A The statement is correct, Mr. Prosecutor, for you must know that many reports were made out daily, that is to say, within a period of two or four weeks, a great number of reports were made out and these rare cases where actually secret matters were reported they concerned those reports which happened once or twice a month and it wasn't that I merely passed on these two reports to the Army which have been submitted here. There was a very large number of reports which I made out, almost all of which concerned themselves with my work as Chief III, but they do not appear here.
Q All right. We will return to my other question. From the information which you gained and which you were able to gather while you served with Einsatzgruppe D, according to your best recollection and belief, how many people were executed by Einsatzgruppe D from June 1941 to June 1942? or belief, because my figure could be incorrect. by Einsatzgruppe D? what I should say. Of course, I know that executions took place and I saw the figures in the various reports, but to give you a total figure, I cannot do it.
Q All right, I'll ask you this: Do not the total number of executions present a fairly accurate picture of the number performed by Einsatzgruppe D during the time that you were with the unit? kommando.
Q You mean that you won't say.
A No, Mr. Prosecutor, I am aware of the fact that my figure could be wrong and therefore I cannot mention any and I did not perform any service with a kommando and therefore I have no way of knowing the answer to the questions which you put to me.
an inspection trip? before this Tribunal make the statement that you had the authority to stop bad conditions of an execution? That's found on the transcript of the record, English text, page 730. You still insist that you did not have this authority to stop improper or bad conditions of an execution?
A I know of no such authority, Mr. Prosecutor.
Q All right, Let's go on to another subject. Is it true that the deeper into Russian territory that EinsatzGroup D proceeded the more difficult became the communications with Berlin? territory the difficulties of communications between the Kommandos increased did it not?
A Here I must make a difference. We were in radio communication with the Kommandos and we had radio communications with Berlin. These communications did exist but otherwise it was very difficult. For example, the Crimea in the first months of 1942 was always cut off and the Army had ordered that only ammunition could be brought to the Crimea. Otherwise no traffic took place. virtually a free hand in carrying out their missions in the area assigned to them?
A Mr. Prosecutor, this is a matter of interpretation. The Kommando leader was able to get in touch with Ohlendorf, by radio any day.
variance with the statement you made on 11 March this year. In that interrogation you stated they had virtually a free hand in the areas assigned to them. Now which one do you stand on, the one in the interrogation or the one you just made?
A I see no difference in that, Mr. Prosecutor. Of course, the Kommando leaders, after they had received an order, had the possibility to carry out an order the way it was appropriate in their area and as it was suitable to their division, etc. But, this does not exclude that in questions which the Kommando leader thought he could not decide himself he could apply to the chief by radio. I see no contradiction in this. the Kommando leader acted on his own initiative, did he not? gas van? parked in the courtyard at the headquarters in Simferopol?
A There was a gas van there. I saw a gas van but it was not there all the time. I do not know this exactly and by inquiring from the driver I found out it was the so-called gas van. van when they needed it?
that they might have turned to the chief. I do not know.
Q Did you ever dispatch the gas van to a Kommando?
A No. I never did that. was not there of dispatching this gas van? April. That's when I was on the staff by myself. Simferopol?
A I cannot give you the date. I could even be wrong in giving the month. leave the courtyard at Simferopol and then it would come back later? does not exclude that the gas van had been requisitioned and brought to the Kommando but in no case was it a continuous traffic during the periods which I was present. van in the courtyard at Simferopol, haven't you? later, was it not? in Simferopol?
Q It could have been there, you just don't remember?
A I do not know. I saw it one single time. It could have been there. There was a very large garage in the courtyard where all vehicles were kept.
that they had used the gas van?
A No, I did not see such a report. It never mentioned that - whether they were executed by the gas van or whether they were shot. The expression shot was used but I do not know that the gas van was mentioned.
Q Well, are you familiar with Himmler's order that women and children should be executed by gas rather than shooting which was published to your group in the early spring of 1942?
A I do not remember such an order as Himmler's order in this form.
Q Whose order was it? have described. the first place? but I did not see any express Himmler order to this effect.
Q Did you ever see anybody's order to that effect?
A Saw the order? Pardon me, I don't understand the question. women and children by the use of gas vans?
Q Well, didn't it excite your curiosity as to why the gas van should be there and didn't you seek to find out the reason for its presence in the courtyard in Einsatzgruppe D?
A I didn't bother about these things, Mr. Prosecutor. I know, of course, that people were to be executed by gas vans or I could unfortunately imagine it but I did not investigate the matter because it was none of my business.
saw situations which needed improvement didn't you offer suggestions for dealing with these situations to the Kommando leader?
A Prdon me, what conditions do you mean, Mr. Prosecutor?
Q All right. Suppose that the Kommando leader when you arrived at his headquarters said, "Colonel Seibert, I have a problem here which concerns the morale of my men. I should like your advice and counsel on it." Would you discuss such a matter with a Kommando leader? comradely fashion and would have given him personal advice but if I visited a Kommando leader it wasn't that he said, "Colonel, may I ask you this?" but the relationship was much more friendly, so that one was able to discuss it. getting worried about the fact that his execution squads seemed to enjoy their duties as an execution squad and asked for your advice about replacements, what advice would you give him?
A I didn't get the question. The Kommando was to enjoy the execution you mean? That is completely impossible. so many executions until it was the impression of the Kommando leader that these men enjoyed their duties. Now General Ohlendorf has testified here that he always saw that men who reached this frame of mind were shipped out of the group. Suppose this Kommando leader told you that this situation existed in his Kommando and asked your advice about getting replacements for these men. What advice would you give him?