I would not have been in a position to do so.
Q. You were with the commanding officer of the Gruppe on a great many of these inspection tours, were you not?
A. Yes.
Q. And if General Ohlendorf had wanted those files inspected, but he didn't want to take time to Inspect them himself, who would have inspected the files?
A. Even if he would have done this -- I don't remember it at the moment -- he could make spot checks, but it never happened that he said, "Look at these documents or investigate them". It was always that I had to use the time in order to discuss matters with my three experts and discuss all that had occurred.
Q. If he had ordered you to inspect those files you could have, though, couldn't you?
A. Yes, of course.
Q. Now, from your familiarity with the reports in Einsatzgruppe D, this meant that you had to have excess to the secret files of Einsatzgruppe D, didn't it?
A. Yes.
Q. You could go even to the top secret files of Einsatzgruppe D, and examine them, couldn't you?
A. Yes, Of course.
Q. So that was available to you in those secret files, or top secret files -- the total number of people executed by Einsatzgruppe D, wasn't it?
A. I didn't see any list of total figures.
Q. Was that information contained in those files?
A. I do not know.
Q. I want to submit to you Document Book II-D.
MR, WALTON: May it please the Tribunal, I don't want to COURT II CASE IX waste the time of the Court, but I now wish to question him on a phase concerning five documents, and in my opinion it is a good place to stop.
THE PRESIDENT: Yes, I would think so, especially if you are going to take up a series of documents.
MR. WALTON: Yes, they are all connected and inter-related.
THE PRESIDENT: The Tribunal will be in recess until tomorrow morning at nine-thirty.
(The Tribunal recessed until 0930, 19 November 1947) A. Musmanno,presiding.
THE MARSHAL: The Honorable, the Judges of Military Tribunal II.
Military Tribunal II is now in session. God save the United States of America and this Honorable Tribunal.
THE PRESIDENT: You may proceed, Mr. Walton.
CROSS EXAMINATION (Continued) BY MR. WALTON: record of your testimony for the last day and a half and briefly stated it appears to be the following: That you were deputy to General Ohlendorf for economic questions in the staff of Einsatzgruppe D; that you were liaison officer to the 11th Army in your same sphere of economic questions, and that your chief function outside of your sphere of economic matters was the compilation of activity and situation reports gathered from the Kommandos of Einsatzgruppe D for transmission to the RSHA in Berlin. In detail, your sphere dealt with such questions as economics, agriculture, morale of the population in that area of the occupied territory assigned to Einsatzgruppe D. Is this summary a broad outline of your activities in Einsatzgruppe D?
A It is not quite correctly summarized. May I briefly repeat? I was not the economic expert with General Ohlendorf, but I was Chief III and thus the only information officer for the SD work in the area of Einsatzgruppe D. That does not only comprise economics but also the morale of the population for all fields of domestic life. liaison officer was with the Army who was permanently stationed there and who had his office there. In the staff of Einsatzgruppe D I had the job of collaborating with the Army, that is, all the reports which I have already mentioned for the agencies of the Army end the constant contact with these Army agencies.
Mr. Prosecutor, the third thing you mentioned, the activity reports, this was a part of the SD work, 90% of it. It was that part of the work where reports did not have to be copied, but real problems had to be dealt with. Questions arose as, for example, the food situation in a city where I became active as an advisor for the Army agencies, but this is only one small example, and furthermore, I received reports from the Kommandos which were concerned with executions and I incorporated them into summarized situation reports which were then submitted to the chief and which were passed on. sphere of tasks?
A I cannot say exactly, Mr. Prosecutor, for any servicesin the war area brings up daily questions and daily problems so that it might very well happen that the chief gives me some order to do something quickly.
Q I will inquire further. Did you ever make any agreements with the Army involving the future activities of the Kommandos of Einsatzgruppe D?
AAgreements would not be the right expression. At best I could receive directives and orders from the Army for my information. time Einsatzgruppe D would perform, through its Kommandos, certain specific tasks in certain specific localities?
Q Let's take a specific example. I now direct your attention to Document Book III-D, page 39 of the English, page 69 of the German, which is Document NOKW-628 -
THE PRESIDENT: 3, what, Mr. Walton?
MR. WALTON: 3-D, sir.
BY MR. WALTON, continued:
Q -- Prosecution's Exhibit 160. I hand you herewith, Colonel, a photostatic copy of the original document. This is a report of the activity of Einsatzgruppe D from 1 February 1942 to 16 April 1942 and if you will look at the last page you will see that it is signed by you for the Army High Command of the 11th Army. Did you prepare this report?
Q Now, again this report is signed after the abbreviation "IV" which means "In Vertretung", does it not?
Q And "In Vertretung" means the representative or acting for General Ohlendorf at the time you signed this report, does it not? with in the staff I was the constant deputy of the chief and I signed these papers as such.
Q All right. Now, let's see if all these spheres you dealt with are contained in this report. Now, you have testified that a man named Zietzen was appointed the deputy to Ohlendorf, have you not?
Q What other task did Zietzen have?
Q Now, isn't it true that the headquarters of Einsatzgruppe D was usually in the same locality as 11th Army headquarters?
Q Isn't it further true that Zietzen was usually in the field with his Kommando 10-A often many kilometers distant from the group headquarters?
A Yes, that's correct. was a great distance away from headquarters, could he? which I have pointed out, which is seven hundred kilometers away from Simferopol up to Taganrog.
Q All right. Let's consider this document. In the first paragraph of this report when you speak of the operation detachment 12, you speak of the extended activities of this Kommando and you say that they were carried, out in spite of the handicap of weather, What specific activities did you mean?
A Excuse me, Mr. Prosecutor, is this page 1 or nay I ask where this is?
Q Do you see Roman I paragraph which is headed "Activities since February 1942" on the first page? in effect, that Einsatz Kommando 12 had its headquarters in Fedorowka?
Q All right. And it continued to be handicapped by the severe cold of winter?
Q Now, in the third sentence it says that "The sphere of activities could nevertheless" -- which means in spite of the cold weather - "be extended by transferring Teil Kommandos to certain named places" Now my question was what were these extended activities which you mention were performed by Einsatz Kommando 12? to what the Kommando 12 has reported. I did not have any knowledge of my own about this.
I understand extensive to mean that the Kommando was again in a position to send out sub-kommandos from their garrisons.
Q For what purpose, Colonel? leaders. als, did it not?
Q You have answered my question. Now, continuing on toward the bottom of page 1 of the original, it is shown there that in agreement with the intelligence officer of the staff of the 11th Army, part of Sonderkommando 10-B, was employed for the protection of the railway area. Who made this agreement? the liaison officer. I do not know.
Q By the Kommando, do you mean General Ohlendorf? D? read here myself and what the Kommando had reported. I had no approval to give on this. This is a summarization of the report of the Kommando just as I mentioned under 12, so that I cannot say whether, on the basis of this transfer of the sub-kommandos any execution took place.
Q I didn't ask you whether an execution took plane. I was asking you about an agreement. Now, since General Ohlendorf was the group commander would it not be possible for the Army High Command of the 11th Army to agree with him that a Teilkommando of 10-B would be used for a time to guard a certain railway area which would be of benefit both to the 11th Army and to the Einsatzgroup? Could not General Ohlendorf have made the agreement with the Army?
or the first of April he was absent from the group? as the senior officer present in that staff before they took the matter up with the commanding officer of Kommando 10-B? they could only make an agreement with that Kommando leader who in this case represented Ohlendorf in his area. Suppose that you informed the Army High Command that it was not feasible or practical to use this portion of Sonderkommando 10-B. Could you have objected to their use of the Kommando for these duties? and could have given this information, so that during the negotiations with the Kommando Leader this was known. that you had discussed the employment of his forces to guard a railway area and advised him to grant the Army's request? Kommando was active, with what missions, that is, whether it was in combat or what the situation was. Only the Kommando leader himself could take this, because only he could say, "I have this mission to perform at the moment and the Army must take this job away from me if it wants to assign the other mission."
Q All right. Let's continue on down to two-third of the way down page 2 of the original which, Your Honors, is the last paragraph on page 40, and you use a term there, "The Crimea is freed of Jews", which is a quotation. What did you mean by that sentence when you wrote it?
THE PRESIDENT: Mr.Walton, you say "which is a quotation." It doesn't appear as a quotation in our book. It is a statement by him.
MR. WALTON: It is a statement by him which I meant to say I quoted from the document to him to call his attention to those words.
THE PRESIDENT: Oh yes, very well.
Court No. II, Case No. IX.
Q. Colonel, what did you mean by the words the Crimea is freed of Jews?
A. With this I repeated what the commando had reported, and I can only understand by this that no Jews were left on the Crimea.
Q. Is that the conclusion which you, yourself, reached when you had carefully analyzed the reports of the commandos; or, did each commando report definitely and specifically that his area was completely free of Jews?
A. The commando reported that the commando area is free of Jews, and I did not make any analysis or I did not make any countings, or did not draw any of my own conclusions, because they could have been completely wrong.
Q. Didn't you make any check to see that this statement was, could be true before you put it in your report?
A. That was not my task; I did not make any spotchecks, but may I say one thing: If the chief had ordered me to make spot-checks, that is to look through the files of the commando, then I would not nave found any more than the copy of the report which the commando actually sent to the staff of the Einsatzgruppe. It would have been completely impossible to investigate any further, so that the chief had to depend that his commando leaders would carry out orders which they received.
Q. It seems to me that this whole report, after reading it carefully, makes the group show up in a very favorable light. Now, it follows that your reports generally showed the group favorably. Would you pad it with facts which you did not know to be true or false?
A. I could not have put in any facts which I did not see in the reports, or which I did not take from the reports.
Q. But you accepted them as a complete truth, and put them in the report.
A. The responsibility that the facts in the commando reports were correct lay with the commando leader.
Q. Answer my question, Colonel. You accepted them as a truth and put them in a report?
A. Yes, of course.
Q. Thank you.
A. Because I had no possibility to investigate further, and it was not my job.
Q. Now, as a matter of policy, did you while General Ohlendorf was absent, during this period, authorize any rewards or grant any special privileges to those Crimeans who denounced Jews to the Einsatzkommandos?
A. No.
Q. Do you know whether any rewards were given to denunciators by the commando leaders?
A. This is completely new to me.
Q. You don't know then, in other words; is that your answer?
A. I cannot know this because the manner in which the commandos did its work in its execution missions was not known to me.
Q. Let's go on to the paragraph relating the facts about the burgomaster of Kutschka-Eli and a communist woman president of the town council; that is the last sentence on page 41, Your Honors. Now, your report follows: Five main communists who were rendered harmless. Does this mean that they were killed?
A. Pardon me, Mr. Prosecutor, are these the five communists headed by the name Ibraimow?
Q. Yes, together with the burgomaster, and the communist woman president of the town council. Were these people all rendered harmless and, if so, what does the term rendered harmless mean to you?
A. Pardon me; I don't find the place where the word harmless is mentioned.
Q. Towards the latter half, latter third of page 3 of the original; just before the names, the five names given.
A. Page 3 of the original is missing here. It says page 1, page 4, page 6, etc.
Q. All right. You see the name Ibraimow, do you not, for it says on page 6 -
A. Yes, on page 6.
Q. Well, what does the sentence just prior to that list of names read?
A. There it says of leading communists the following were rendered harmless.
Q. Yes, now I want to know what that term means to you.
A. In this case the matter is completely clear, because on the top of page 7 the sentence had been added and shows that these people were publicly hanged.
Q. Who ordered their deaths?
A. I do not know. As far as I know, through the reports, I cannot say, but if it is a matter of a public hanging, it could have never happened without the town commandant of the army for the town in which this happened having ordered the commando to do it.
Q. Is there any proof?
A. But I do not know.
Q. Was any proof offered to you that these five in fact did hold a position that you gave in your report?
A. No, in this form I merely incorporated the reports of this commando report in the report.
Q. Why was the execution of these five individuals so important that you felt you had to give their names and their position in your report?
A. It was not neither my job to investigate not could I see this.
Q. Did you usually give the names of all the executed persons in your reports?
A. No.
Q. All right, Colonel, let's go to page 6 of the original. This has to do with the punitive action against the village of Laki, which is on page 45 -- your Honors -just before the middle of the page. Have you found the place where on the 23rd of March, in collaboration with the Wehrmacht, the punitive action was carried out against the village of Laki; on page 6 of the original report.
A. Yes, I found the place.
Q. Who ordered this action?
A. There are two possibilities according to what I read, here, for I do not know any more than that. First of all it could have been ordered by the leader of the army unit there; secondly, it could have been ordered by the Kommando Leader 11-A, which was in Bachtschissaraij.
Q. Who reported this fact to you?
A. This report came from the Kommando 11-A.
Q. Now, your report states that fifteen persons were involved in the giving of aid to partisans and were shot; and the rest of the population evacuated and the village burned to the ground. Were other homes or places of shelter provided for these people whose homes were completely destroyed?
A. I do not know, and I cannot know, Mr. Prosecutor, because I wasn't in this place at all where this happened. I don't know the town Laik at all.
Q. Did the reports state any provision for the people who were evacuated from their homes before they were burned?
A. I cannot say; I do not know.
Q. Did the reports state how many people from the village of Laki were made homeless by this action?
A. I cannot assume it because otherwise it would say so.
Q. Did the fifteen persons executed have any kind of trial before a court prior to their execution?
A. Mr. Prosecutor, to all these questions I can only repeat one answer. I do not know these events from my own knowledge. I did not have the job to investigate them. Therefore, I cannot know whether a trial was given here by the Kommando leader.
Q. All right; let's pass on to page 8 of the original, the paragraph headed Roman II, which is on page 46 -- Your Honors. Now then, this paragraph is headed planned further assignments of kommando detachments. Way would this go into the reports unless you in the absence of General Ohlendorf had the right or the power to order the kommandos to carry out these assignments?
A. This was put in here because this decision was up to the army alone.
Q. Well, if the decision was up to the army alone, they knew what they were going to do with the kommandos. Why would it be necessary for you to cite in your report the future assignments of the five sub-units of Einsatzgruppe D?
A. Because the kommandos mentioned in their reports, for example, the Special Kommando 11-A had reported that it would now transfer its headquarters from Bachtschissaraij to to Kokosi, and this was mentioned in these reports.
Q. Did they have to receive approval from the headquarters of the Einsatzgruppe D before they could make this transfer?
A. As a rule it was done with the approval of the chief of the Einsatzgruppe.
Q. Yes, but during the period 16th of April, and for some time after that, General Ohlendorf was absent, either on leave or on business in Berlin when you wrote this report on the middle of April. Now, who had to make the approval?
A. His Kommando leaders were his representatives, there was no condition without any order; if the army had not been agreeable, then via the liaison officer it would have called up the Kommando 11-A and said that the Kommando was to stay at that one place.
it was well known to the army and well known to the Kommando leaders and the staff had nothing to do with it? Why was it necessary for you to put it in the report?
A That was customary; it was done this way at all times in all reports; it could have been omitted just as well.
Q So it served no purpose for you to put this in the report? Did it serve a purpose of any kind for you to put it in the report? Kommando was in case the army officer did not yet have this information. of them. We will leave that. The next thing I want you to do is to point out for the Tribunal in this report any statement made by you which concerned your field of domestic questions of economy, or of agriculture, or the morale of the population. Point out one statement in that report which was definitely in the field you have stated was yours.
A The spheres which you have just mentioned, Mr. Prosecutor, is my sphere as Chief III for the SD reports; as my second sphere, of all the summarizing of these reports; secondly, the partisan reconnaissance; and thirdly, the working on the military decorations.
THE PRESIDENT: You didn't answer Mr. Walton's question, or rather, you did not do what he asked you to do. economics or of the field which I mentioned as Chief III as far as I can see. BY MR. WALTON: Einsatzkommandos of Einsatzgruppe D, were you not?
of them, were you not? important or secret matters if the kommando leaders reported to the chief personally -- which happened very frequently.
Q You didn't know of important or secret matters; is that correct?
A I did not mean to say that. Of course I knew about secret matters, but I cannot say that I heard about all secret or top secret matters, for I have already mentioned that during conferences with the commanding general of the army, between him and Ohlendorf, I was never present during these conferences. the English, page 1 of the German, document Book III-D, Sir, I am sorry, Document Book III-D, page 1 of the English, page 1 of the German, which is Document No. NO-2856, Prosecution's Exhibit 148; specifically to paragraph 2, the sentence there which reads at the end of page 1 of the original. Seibert had full access to all secret files, including those which were designated as top secret. I am sorry, Colonel, I thought you had it in your hands.
Let me repeat: In paragraph 2, toward the end of page 1 of the original, the sentence reads, and I quote: "Seibert had full access to all secret files, including those which were designated as top secret." Now, does not this sentence mean that you knew, as well as General Ohlendorf, all matters which concerned Einsatzgruppe D, or, certainly all official matters which concerned Einsatzgruppe D? far as the matters are concerned which are designated as secret, that I had access to them, but outside of secret documents there are matters which have not been laid down in the reports or orders, or there can be such things, so thus this does not exclude that I did not hear about those.
Q All right: let's go a little further down on page 2 of the original where General Ohlendorf says that Seibert was acquainted with all the duties and problems within the framework of Einsatzgruppe D. Only two people -- I am still reading from the affidavit -- could have complete knowledge of the number of executions which took place; namely, Seibert and myself.
Well, Colonel, was not the number of executions the most carefully guarded top secret of the affairs of the Einsatzgruppe D? I know.
Q All right; let's inquire into some of the reports from Berlin. Document Book II-D, please; II-D, page 8 of the German. Colonel, let me call your attention to Document Book II-D, page 8 of the German, page 9 of the English, which is Document No. NO-3159, and Prosecution's Exhibit 85. Now, this is a rather lengthy document, and on page 18 of the English copy -- I don't know exactly what page in the German, but it is on page 13 of the original, where the section of this RSHA report is devoted to the activities of Einsatzgruppe D. Will you kindly indicate when you have found this section of that document?
A Einsatzgruppe D begins on page 14 of the original; is that right in the German text? description. Right under the paragraph marked Einsatzgruppe D, it gives a location as being in Nikolajew. executions of 31,767. Did you report this figure to Berlin? were sent to Berlin. The situation and activity reports which were sent to Berlin contained at the end always the same sentence; during the time of the report so and so many people were executed. The number had been omitted in the report, and in this report which the signal man Fritsch made out, of course as a result of a dictation by me, or, by Ohlendorf, in this report he went into the signal room and from the reports of the Einsatzkommandos during the period that the report was covering, he took out the numbers and he added them for this period of the report, and this figure then was coded by him personally in the signal room, and did not appear in the written reports for reasons of secrecy; this had been ordered by Ohlendorf.
total number of executions that he was to send to Berlin?
room and were at the disposal there every day for his work. everything in the report, except the total number of executions? matter to get the total number and figure them up from the reports of the 5 kommandos and it was his sole responsibility to determine what these totals were and his sole responsibility to transmit this information to B erlin? signal man, Fritsch, just as any signal man who gets such a report for transmission. executions during your whole service with Einsatzgruppe D? have been done by Fritsch.
THE PRESIDENT: That wasn't the question which was put to you. Tour answer was an argument and not a response. Mr. Walton asked you if throughout your entire service you ever gave Fritsch the number of the executions.
THE WITNESS: No, he did not get a total figure from me.
THE PRESIDENT: At no time?
THE WITNESS: At no time, Your Honor.
THE PRESIDENT: Did you yourself know what number he then transmitted?
THE WITNESS: I knew the figure in the reports, Your Honor. Q (By Mr. Walton): Then I ask you a question on Document 3159, which is now before you.