were commanded to action about what time?
A When they started, Mr. Prosecutor? I beg your pardon.
Q I withdraw the question and ask you this question. After leaving Dueben and Pretsch do you remember the approximate date when you reached the Russian border or Russian territory? territory, and one of the staffs and the Kommando 12 namely, remained at Pjatraneamt for sometime. Before that, the Army had left there, rather had withdrawn two advanced kommandos, and had also assigned them before we ever arrived at Pjatraneamt, but I myself, I cannot say the exact time I remained in the Rumanian territory in Pjatraneamt. what month of 1941? D been committed against the enemies of the Reich? engaged in in July of 1941?
A Reports came to the Einsatzgruppe only very late. Of course, the actual connection, the direct connection, between these two kommandos existed with the divisions assigned to them.
Q All right. Again I ask you the question, about what time did you see the first activity and situation report from an Einsatz Kommando?
Q Did these reports show executions? executions by a Kommando of Einsatzgruppe D? was the first one to report about it. I don't remember that. executions by Kommandos? your pardon --may I say this -- which executions were concerned and who carried out such executions. exterminate Jews, Gypsies and Communists? necessary to execute these people in July, 1941?
A Mr. Prosecutor, very often we talked to UnterKommando leaders and to Ohlendorf about this and expressed our objection against this. I did not meet anyone among the leaders of the Einsatzgruppe who agreed to such an order.
THE PRESIDENT: Mr. Walton, would you mind deferring for fifteen minutes now? The Tribunal will be in recess for fifteen minutes.
(Recess was taken)
THE MARSHAL: The Tribunal is again in session.
DR. ERICH M. MAYER (Attorney for the Defendant Braune): morrow's session, in order that he may prepare his defense.
THE PRESIDENT: The Defendant Braune will be excused from attendance in court tomorrow so that he may prepare his defense.
DR. ERICH M. MAYER: Thank you very much.
THE PRESIDENT: Proceed, Mr. Walton.
Q. (By Mr. Walton): Colonel, just before the recess, I believe you stated on cross-examination that the Kommando Fuehrer Order, is that right?
A. Yes.
Q. Then you said that at some time later you had occasion to discuss this Order with General Ohlendorf. Did you also say that?
A. Yes.
Q. What was said at this discussion with General Ohlendorf?
A. During this conference the refusal, the revulsion, and the objection which everyone had about this order were discussed.
Q. Did you have anything to say at this discussion?
A. That was a conversation in which everyone had his say, yes.
Q. Did you express any regrets that this Order had to be carried out?
A. Yes, I regretted that such an Order, against which I objected, had been given.
Q. You told this to General Ohlendorf?
A. Yes
Q. Did you ask General Ohlendorf to relieve you and send you back to Berlin?
A. I did not do that because I saw no opportunity. As a soldier, it was completely clear to me that without any reason I could not simply be sent to Berlin, and therefore, I saw no possibility for Ohlendorf to do that. I had no personal connections with Streckenbach either. I hardly knew him.
Q. Could you have applied through regular channels for transfer, since you were considered too valuable to serve with the Wehrmacht? Couldn't you have applied through regular channels for transfer back to your job in Berlin?
A. In peacetime this was possible in Germany, but in time of war, I had to do my duty wherever I was ordered.
Q. You considered it your duty to carry out this Fuehrer Order, regardless of your own convictions?
A. I did not carry out this Fuehrer Order.
Q. You didn't know thaw though when you were in Duebin and Pretzsch whether you would have to carry it out or not?
A. No, of course not.
Q. That's where the discussion took place with General Ohlendorf, didn't it?
A. The reason was that in the meantime I had been informed of the Fuehrer Order and the kommando leaders and I discussed this matter with Ohlendorf.
Q. Let us pass on to another point. What was your principal duty when Einsatzgruppe D Headquarters moved into a town?
A. My mission was the same as If we were in a small locality. I immediately had to start making out reports about the attitude of the population and to make up reports about the fields which I have already mentioned.
Q. From what sources did you take samples of the morale of the population?
A. My sources were the reports of the kommandos.
Q. Did you ever negotiate yourself with the Jewish Council of Elders to find out what the morale of the population was?
A. I never negotiated with the Jewish Council of Elders.
A. Did you ever receive the registration lists of the Jewish Council of Elders?
A. No, I had nothing to do with that.
Q. Did you ever see any?
A. No, there was no such list in the staff.
Q. Were lists ever made up of gypsies, Soviet party members and commissars within an area?
A. I do not know. There were no such lists in the staff.
Q. You knew that these people were being given special treatment, because they were a threat to the security of the armed forces, did you not.
A. Yes, I knew that.
Q. As a matter of your own opinion, based on your experience as an army of officer and based on your service with Einsatzgruppe D, would not it have been an adequate security measure, both from a police and a military standpoint to have deprived all Jews and gypsies and Soviet party members who were not partisans of their liberty?
A. I cannot judge this, Mr. Prosecutor. I do not have the possibility of judging this.
Q. You had experience as an army officer, didn't you?
A. Yes, but not about such extensive questions which occur during wars between ideologies. My experience did not fit this situation.
Q. You read activity and situation reports of the kommandos, didn't you?
A. I have read many reports, yes.
Q. And it was then your job to determine what parts of those situation and activity reports should be extracted for transmission to Berlin, wasn't it?
A. The reports in which executions were listed......
Q. That's not what I asked you, Witness. I asked you if it was your job to extract from these reports.....
A. Yes.
Q. .......facts to be transmitted to Berlin. Now, these reports from the Einsatzkommando leaders gave you the situation and activities, didn't they?
A. They didn't describe it to me, but I got them, yes.
Q. Yes, and from your knowledge of the activities you were able to judge whether or not these people should be liquidated from a standpoint of security in your own mind, were you not?
A. N o, I could not judge that.
Q. Could not or would not?
A. I could not, because the facts at the particular place were never known to me.
Q. Did you ever personally conduct an investigation to determine what an individual Jew or gypsy had done in order to deserve to be executed?
A. I never did this during my entire stay in Russia.
Q. Did you ever see a report of investigation made by someone else that such people were guilty of some crime against the German forces?
A. No, I cannot recall........
Q. As a matter of fact, were ever such reports made in individual cases?
A. I cannot say, Mr. Prosecutor. I only saw the summarized reports which the kommandos sent on to the group. No documents were attached to this.
Q. You made inspections to the different kommando headquarters from time to time, did you not?
A. Yes.
Q. And you inspected the files in each kommando, didn't you?
A. No, I didn't inspect the files, but with my expert III I discussed matters in detail and I gave this man advice and guidance.
Q. When you made an inspection of a kommando alone and General Ohlendorf was not with you, would not your Inspection include all phases of the activity of a kommando?
A. No, they did not. I have already told.....
Q. How did you know then that the reports which they sent to you were true?
A. I could not know. I did not know. I did not know whether the reports were true.
Q. And you sent these reports on to Berlin as a true factual picture of the situation not knowing whether they were true or not?
A. I did not pass them on, but I drafted them and then submitted them to the Chief of the Einsatzgruppe for his signature.
Q. Yes, but you put in there facts which you had gotten from the reports of the kommando leaders?
A. I did not put them in there, but this was merely repeating whatever the kommando report said.
Q. That's right. Now, then, how did you know this to be the truth?
A. To determine that was not my job. In view of these reports, I neither had the right nor the mission to make any inquiries or to make any decisions or to make any inspections.
Q. All right. It was your responsibility to protect the Chief of Einsatzgruppe D in the matter of making report, was it not?
A. Yes.
Q. And to discharge this responsibility you had to put in these reports facts, did you not?
A. Yes, I had the responsibility.
Q. And in 12 months' time you never questioned a single fact which was submitted to you by a kommando leader?
A. My answer was not complete, Mr. Prosecutor. I had the responsibility that whatever was summarized in the report from the kommando or was added to another situation report that these two would agree. That was my responsibility, but it was never my mission to start investigations whether in this particular field this report was correct.
two reports were alike could have been the same for anyone who could use a typewriter, could it not? could use a typewriter could have performed that job, couldn't he? them to the General for his signature, couldn't he? sturmbannfuehrer while you were with the group part of the time. Do you mean to tell me that it was a responsibility and a job of a Lieutenant Colonel or an Obersturmbannfuehrer to make the reports that a Private could make?
A No. I do not mean to say this. Furthermore, I was not a Lieutenant Colonel during the whole time, was drafted as a major and later after five or six months was promoted. But in the spheres in which I made out the reports, namely my SD reports, I, of course, had to worry about these matters, and I did so. 1941, weren't you?
Q And you didn't leave Einsatzgruppe D until June of 1942? Einsatzgruppe D you were a lieutenant colonel, were you not?
A Yes. I merely said, "not during the entire time".
preparing reports during this time?
A No, it wasn't that simple. I had to do the work which an information man would have to perform. assignments of the Einsatzgruppe come through you? The daily orders or any orders were sent to the commandos from the army by the liaison officer who was with Army for that purpose. officer of Einsatzgruppe D with the army?
A No. This was another major. The difference is the following: With the staff of the 11th Army for the entire period of the assignment there was an SS liaison officer who lived with the staff and who worked with the staff every day mostly in the office of the G-2. In the staff of Einsatzgruppe D it was my job first to make out the reports for the Army, to maintain contact with the agencies who got the reports, to carry on conferences with these agencies, to report results of partisan reconnaissance, and to work on all military decorations for members of the Einsatzgruppe D. discharge of your task? between the chief of staff and the agencies under his command so that it might happen that for example I would frequently visit the G-4 officer more frequently than I would visit any other officer.
Q What was the task of the G-4 in the army?
chief quarter master, and as such he was ordered to concern himself with our reports because the economic commandos were under his command and the agricultural matters were also under his jurisdiction. gasoline equipment had to be given to the group by him? gruppe D, were you not -- it was part of your task to draw supplies through this officer?
A No. This job of supply was the mission of the administrative officer in Einsatzgruppe D who was in charge of the actual administration.
Q Who was this officer? almost daily contacts with the army you know pretty well what was going on so far as it concerned Einsatzgruppe D in Army Headquarters, did you not?
Q Didn't you know generally what was contemplated in the way of assignments for Einsatzgruppe D through these daily contacts? for the liquidation of hostages through these contacts? hostages?
Q No, an order. Your chief has testified that the order for the execution of hostages came from the 11th Army.
Did you know that they were issuing orders for the execution of hostages? whether it was in July or August 1941, I had dinner in the club of the staff and at this occasion I sat together with other officers and the then chief of the army, General von Schobert came to our table in order to discuss matters with the officer sitting at the table or to ask them something. On this occasion I was introduced to him. He asked me immediately, "Are you from Ohlendorf"; I said, "Yes , I belong to the Einsatzgruppe." Then Schobert told me very agitatedly that he had just again received reports according to which German troops during their advance had been shot at from hedgerows and from houses and he had ordered that this was to be retaliated immediately, he would now have those hostages arrested and if something happened, he would have them shot, "please tell this to Mr. Ohlendorf."
Q Did you carry this message back to General Ohlendorf? of the army to the Einsatzgruppe, didn't you?
A No. This was not an order for the Einsatzgruppe, I merely told him that the general was dissatisfied with the situation in this area, and that he had ordered or he was going to order that he would have hostages arrested, and if something happened that he would have them shot. assignments of Einsatzgruppe D come into Einsatzgruppe D headquarters ?
did these orders and requests come? Officer. Army for the chief of Einsatzgruppe D, which was an assignment or a commitment for the commandos of that group and General Ohlendorf was absent from his headquarters, who opened this communication and read it?
Q. Who had the responsibility of transmitting this to the Einsatzkommando leaders concerned if General Ohlendorf was still gone?
A. Ohlendorf was absent, and it was an order by the army, then I would have passed on the order for the information of the commando concerned as an order of the army.
Q. Did you issue any separate orders for the commando leaders based upon this original order.....
A. No..
Q. .....if General Ohlendorf was not there?
A. No, I could not.
Q. You passed the order on in the oritinal form?
A. I may say that I do not remember such a case, for I was almost always with Ohlendorf when he was away, but of course I would have passed it on to the commandos for their information.
Q. Would you address any communication to accompany that letter; for instance, a cover-letter which right say in effect these words: "For your information and compliance" and signed either representing General Ohlendorf or with your own signature?
A. No, I could have only written, if I would have made a cover letter "for your information."
Q. Did any requests or orders for the execution of the insane come through you as liaison officer?
A. No, I did not hear about them, and I got no such orders.
Q. So far as you know, Einsatzgruppe D never received an order to execute an insane person?
A. I recall that it was attempted by some unit of the army to approach the commando concerned in order to evacuate an insane asylum. I remember exactly that this was refused and was not carried out for the army.
Q. Were copies of all orders to the commandos by the 11th Army sent to your headquarters?
A. No, this was not always the case.
Q. How did you obtain knowledge of usch orders or requests?
A. Either through the commando or through the fact that the liaison officer called us up and told us that the Commando 11-A had just received this or that order.
Q. Then would a copy of the order which had been sent to Commando 11-A come to your office?
A. Yes, certainly.
Q. Your headquarters received orders both from General von Schobert and General von Manstein later and at the same they received orders from the RSHA in Berlin, did they not?
A. Yes.
Q. Suppose General Ohlendorf was again absent and there was a definite conflict in the orders of Heydrich in Berlin and General von Schobert's orders which you had right there on your desk, whose responsibility was it to call on General von Schobert and explain to him the conflict between the two sets of orders which were in the headquarters of the Einsatzgruppe D?
A. First of all there were no such conflicts, but even if there had been one, I am of the opinion that an army order in an operational area would have precedence in every case, for the army, that is the commanding general, had the responsibility for the entire security in the area and could give such orders that at any time would be given precedence.
Q. Now, Colonel, it has been repeatedly testified from this stand that orders regarding the tactical situation were army orders and they, of course, were given precedence, but that all other orders involving security measures came from Berlin and they, since they were a police function entirely were given preference over the army orders.
A. I didn't quite get this, pardon me; now I understand. Now, they were not given preference, but the army would have had the possibility at any time to give precedence to its orders, for it was responsible for the area.
Q. Then you could use as an excuse for not carrying out an order from Berlin -- superior orders from the army is that right?
A. If this order had existed, yes, of course.
Q. Did the army ever order you not to execute any one?
A. No, never.
Q. Colonel, did the Einsatzgruppen or its commandos over sentence any one to death for the crime of looting?
A. The staff of the Einsatzgruppen did not, but the commandos Certainly.
Q. Were each one of these looters given a trial by courtsmartial?
A. I don't know. I was not present at such proceedings, but I merely knew in general that for the area Barbarossa, which is Russia, by a decree of the supreme command of the armed forces the jurisdiction was excluded, but how this was carried out, I don't know.
Q. Do you know of your own knowledge whether any executions were performed without any sentence whatsoever?
A. No, I could not say.
Q. Well, in an interrogation which you had here you stated that Jews, communists, people of that nature, who were captured in groups were shot without sentence. Do you wish to take that statement back now?
A. I don't know what the testimony reads like, but I know, of course, that Jews and communist functionaries were shot without investigations taking place, yes.
Q. So you know that of your own knowledge that people were sentenced to be shot without any investigation or trial.
A. Yes, I had to assume that from the Fuehrer Order.
Q. Yes, now coming back to your sources of information for your Reports. These reports gave from time to time totals of executions performed by the commandos, did they not?
A. These reports did not contain any total figures which came from the commandos, but those statements applied to the period of time concerned for which the report was valid.
Q. Well, in the Prosecution documents here, Einsatzgruppe D is credited with a steadily increasing total of executions. Did you send in those totals of executions to Berlin?
A. No, I did not report them to Berlin.
Q. How did they get in those reports which Berlin issued?
A. I can only imagine that the figures were compiled in Berlin.
Q. You are familiar with the activity and situation reports issued by the RSHA in Berlin, which is a part of the Prosecution's case, are you not?
A. Yes, I know them.
Q. Yes, and they are divided into sections corresponding to the Einsatzgruppen are they not?
A. Yes.
Q. And that section devoted to Einsatzgruppe D contains the fact that people were executed, does it not?
A. Yes.
Q. Then occasionally it gives a total of the number of people executed within a given time, don't they?
A. Yes. That can be seen from the documents.
Q. Now, where did the RSHA in Berlin get the information for these figures?
A. Certainly from the Einsatzgruppen.
Q. And since you had the responsibility of making these reports to Berlin, these figures came from you, didn't they?
A. A part of these figures were passed on with these reports by me.
Q. And whore did you get the figures to send on to Berlin?
A. From the reports of the Einsatzkommado leaders.
Q. Yes, that is right; and then the answer to my question that the Einsatzkommando leaders reported their total executions to you from time to time is correct, is it not?
A. That the commandos reported totals?
Q. The total numbers of executions for a period of time to you.
A. That could have happened; I cannot remember any individual case.
Q. I don't want to dwell on this point too long. We are in agreement that the RSHA got the figures of the number of people executed by Einsatzgruppe D from your reports. We agree on that, do we not?
A. The reports which I made out were submitted and were passed on; that is right.
Q. And you also said that your information for making these reports came from the commando leaders or the commandos themselves, did you not?
A. Yes.
Q. So then you would compile the total number of executions for the commandos of Einsatzgruppe D and put it into your regular report to Berlin, would you not?
A. I did not compile them, Mr. Prosecutor. They could only have been compiled in Berlin.
Q. The total number of executions performed by the kommandos of Einsatzgruppe D - who compiled it?
A. There was a man in the orderly room by the name of Fritsch as a signal man and he maintained contact between the orderly room and the signal tower, for these reports were generally sent by radio to Berlin,and this signal man in the orderly room who took care of all the paper work there handed these figures to the signal installations, and they did not appear in the reports.
Q. where did... Was this man Fritsch an officer?
A. No, he was a sergeant. He belonged to the staff as a signal and an orderly.
Q. And as a senior officer in that staff, certainly when the general was away from his headquarters he was under your supervision, was he not?
A. He wasn't subordinated to me in his daily work, but there was an adjutant who was in charge of the orderly room; but, of course, as the highest ranking officer, when Ohlendorf was away, I was in charge of the whole staff.
Q. Did you supply Fritsch with his copy when he sent radio messages to Berlin?
A. Fritsch wrote out those reports.
Q. I thought you said you wrote out the reports that went to Berlin, and now you say an enlisted man wrote them out.
A. No, this is a mistake -- pardon me. He wrote it on the typewriter. Of course, he did not make them out.
Q. Did he submit this copy to you, or to anyone in the Einsatzgruppe staff headquarters, before he transmitted it to Berlin?
A. I do not know how I am to understand this question. Of course, the individual figures were known to me.
Q. And you approved his messages before he sent them on?
A. I had nothing to approve there. It was merely repeating the reports.
Q. How do you know that the kommando leaders did not add their figures, or increase their figures, that you saw from their reports?
A. Mr. Prosecutor, it might have occurred of course that the kommando leaders exaggerated figures. I could not have seen this.
Q. You knew of (General Ohlendorf's orders to his kommando leaders not to increase these figures but to make an actual count, did you not?
A. Yes, I knew.
Q. And it was your responsibility to write reports some time for General Ohlendorf's signature, wasn't it?
A. Yes.
Q. And it was also your responsibility to see that all facts, including totals of executions, were as correct as you could make them, wasn't it?
A. If Ohlendorf gave this order to the kommando leaders, then the kommando leader had the responsibility to see that he would not violate this order.
Q. Now, what steps did you take to see that there was a minimum of this double counting of executed persons?
A. I had no documentary evidence that this happened. and I could not have taken any steps against it.
Q. You could have inspected the files of these kommando leaders when you went out there, couldn't you... didn't you have enough rank and enough authority to do that?
A. No, I did not have the authority. I had the authority for my sphere of work, but not to examine these COURT II CASE IX files or to investigate them.