His SD rank was merely Unterscharfuehrer. Now that is what I gather; I don't know whether the Tribunal got that.
BY THE PRESIDENT:
Q Well, witness, let's get it very specific. In the army you were an officer?
Q When you entered the SD you were a non-commissioned officer? of an officer, but I received the rank as NCO and not as had been promised me as an officer; but several promotions followed, only spaced a few months apart so that this rank should become the same as my position as referent and should be a similar one. to you than a career in the army? too I would work in an economic department because I had always been interested in economics. BY MR. WALTON: officer, is that correct? officer? the document are not quite right here--I was in my home regiment-that is in the infantry regiment No. 33 in Zerbst near Anhalt--and from this battalion I was recalled to Berlin by wire. officer or as a reserve officer in the Wehrmacht?
AAfter I had been recalled? broke out a telegram from Berlin came and recalled you to Berlin.
the SD.
Q Now the next question I ask you: did you, after you had been recalled from your regiment, ever at any time see active service from 1939 to 1945 as a Wehrmacht reserve officer? regular army man, was not called to service because your services were deemed more valuable in the SD, is that correct?
A This was not up to me, Mr. Prosecutor. If it had been up to me I would have remained with the troops right from the start.
Q Let me interrupt you for a minute. Is that your opinion why you did not serve with the Wehrmacht for which you had been trained because you were valuable to the SD?
A No, Mr. Prosecutor, this happened because the mobilization orders provided that in case of war I immediately be put at the disposal of the RSHA I already knew this before the war--and one received a notice about this which stated this suite explicitly. SD and go with your regiment? until I was prohibited from making any further applications. Heydrich already threatened me with punishment if I made any more such applications. BY THE PRESIDENT:
Q Well, that is after your service in Russia? You say, when you returned to Berlin?
Q Well, you say after you returned to Berlin. Please give us the date.
A From Russia?
Q No. We understood you to say that-
tried to join the Wehrmacht and were prohibited from doing so. I am only asking the date that took place. September 1939. BY DR. WALTON: joined the SD but that you did not join the SS, is that true? formation--the SD. which is Document 2858, Prosecution Exhibit 161, which is your own affidavit. Now in Paragraph 2, the second sentence thereof, it states, and I quote: "In the beginning of the year 1936 I joined the SS; my SS number is 272375."
Q Was this a voluntary act on your part?
A That was a voluntary act, yes; only in this formulation there is missing the expression: SD, and that is why it might be misleading; but it was a. voluntary action. September 1939? under orders from the RSHA, did you ever make any attempt to have those orders rescinded and to go on duty with your 33rd infantry regiment?
A Yes, Mr. Prosecutor.
Q How soon after you reached Berlin did you make this effort? commander. General Von Herr would have liked very much to take me along and I, myself, urgently desired to remain with him.
lieutenant, was it not? D two years later in 1941? army, is it not? higher rank and higher pay, did you not?
A Mr. Prosecutor, if I had not been at least a captain or a major in 1941--and if I had remained on active duty in the army, I would have dropped in grade but I left the active service and went into the administrative service and owing to that I could not he promoted any further. lieutenant, you still at some time was subject to redraft back in the army at your rank of lieutenant, were you not? continued to rise in rank, didn't you? a regular troop leader--but this major's rank can only he compared with an officer in the army administrative department. reserve, would it not?
A Salary? Pay? Of course. Einsatzgruppe D that you would serve with your old chief, General Ohlendorf?
you not?
A I beg your pardon, I didn't quite understand. I would not say "career," but apart from that I had no regrets, of course.
Q Now, who told you first about the Fuehrer Order?
DR. GAWLIK: I object to that question. The subject was discussed in detail yesterday. The witness replied to the question when he first heard about the Fuehrer decree, and I asked this question myself, and your Honor also addressed this question. I, therefore, consider this question irrelevant. The witness stated the localities where and under what circumstances this happened.
MR. WALTON: I did not ask him where, your Honor.
THE PRESIDENT: You do not need to argue this point. Dr. Gawlik, this is cross-examination. He can ask him every question you asked if he wants to. In cross-examination he can go over the same field. That is entirely proper. Answer the question.
Q (By Mr. Walton) I will repeat the question, Colonel. Who was the first men who told you about the Fuehrer Order? the Kommando Chief Zapp. Einsatzgruppen headquarters in Pretsch, after he had attended this meeting of group leaders and commando leaders at which this order was given by Streckenbach and Mueller? when this discussion took place in Pretsch, and I already said that I remained in Berlin and every day as required I traveled to Dueben. as well as a very large order? chief topic of conversation, and this order would be in the front of everyone's mind who was a member of the Einsatzgruppe, wouldn't it?
A Mr. Prosecutor, it was like this: A very strong prohibition had been issued not to discuss any matter which concerned somebody else at that moment. In all offices this had been posted in writing.
There was no general discussion about it. Einsatzgruppe, certainly affected you, did it not? nothing to do with my job as Chief 3. to Pretsch or Dueben? for a number of years before the service with the Einsatzgruppe? associate of many years, and deputy for the group commander, certainly for economic questions, and more than likely a personal friend of General Ohlendorf, had to learn of the Fuehrer Order only from the gossip of commando leaders?
A No. Of course, I used the next opportunity to discuss this with Ohlendorf in the garrison in detail, but he did not inform me about this before that, and I am convinced that during these years many things occurred of which Ohlendorf knew and of which I did not know. Fuehrer Order your reaction was that this order was, and I quote the word that you used, "incorrect". Does this mean that you considered this order illegal?
A No, Mr. Prosecutor.
Q Does it mean that you considered this order inhumane? considered it wrong.
Q Did you consider this order, from your inner attitude, inhumane?
A I don't know how one can express such feelings. I mean my feelings revolted against this.
order, did you not?
A I could not look into this, Mr. Prosecutor. I had no opportunity.
Q We were not speaking of your opportunity to overlook it. We are sneaking of the way you felt when you first learned of the Fuehrer Order. Did you consider this order, even though you knew you had to carry it out, to be unjustifiable? for the officer's examination, in your career in the Army and the SD, did you ever learn of the recognized rules and customs of war? Hague Conventions? these Conventions?
Q Also, wasn't it known to you from your studies that the killing of civilians in occupied areas without trial is considered by international law and the laws of recognized warfare to be murder?
A I cannot reply to that, Mr. Prosecutor, because I simply don't know where murder starts and murder ends. It was no war of man against man. There were only exceptions. Tens of thousands of defenseless people were killed in all countries, and by all means. I, therefore, cannot say whether this is murder or whether this is not murder.
Q All right, you read these reports. You saw where reports of Einsatzgruppe D rounded up people, took them out and shot them without trial, did you not?
A I beg your pardon. I did not quite understand that. Einsatzgruppe D collected or rounded up people, and without trial sentenced then and shot them to death, did you not?
Q Did you consider this to be murder? by the commander in chief, the group commando, and by the commander of the Army. to be unjustifiable, namely because it was followed, you had no feeling that it vas murder? but I said that owing to my inner attitude I considered it wrong and improper.
Q All right. Who first accuainted you with your tasks in Einsatzgruppe D? activity in Office 3. I knew about my position very well, that on the first day of marching in I could start reporting. what specific duties you would have in addition to your SD duties in the group headquarters? task of working together with the Army. commando leaders begin to reach your desk?
A You mean to say how long it took, Mr. Prosecutor?
Q No. The march toward Russia started around the 22nd day of June, 1941, did it not?
A Yes, as far as I remember. we left a little later, but about that time, yes. was it not?
A End of June?
were commanded to action about what time?
A When they started, Mr. Prosecutor? I beg your pardon.
Q I withdraw the question and ask you this question. After leaving Dueben and Pretsch do you remember the approximate date when you reached the Russian border or Russian territory? territory, and one of the staffs and the Kommando 12 namely, remained at Pjatraneamt for sometime. Before that, the Army had left there, rather had withdrawn two advanced kommandos, and had also assigned them before we ever arrived at Pjatraneamt, but I myself, I cannot say the exact time I remained in the Rumanian territory in Pjatraneamt. what month of 1941? D been committed against the enemies of the Reich? engaged in in July of 1941?
A Reports came to the Einsatzgruppe only very late. Of course, the actual connection, the direct connection, between these two kommandos existed with the divisions assigned to them.
Q All right. Again I ask you the question, about what time did you see the first activity and situation report from an Einsatz Kommando?
Q Did these reports show executions? executions by a Kommando of Einsatzgruppe D? was the first one to report about it. I don't remember that. executions by Kommandos? your pardon --may I say this -- which executions were concerned and who carried out such executions. exterminate Jews, Gypsies and Communists? necessary to execute these people in July, 1941?
A Mr. Prosecutor, very often we talked to UnterKommando leaders and to Ohlendorf about this and expressed our objection against this. I did not meet anyone among the leaders of the Einsatzgruppe who agreed to such an order.
THE PRESIDENT: Mr. Walton, would you mind deferring for fifteen minutes now? The Tribunal will be in recess for fifteen minutes.
(Recess was taken)
THE MARSHAL: The Tribunal is again in session.
DR. ERICH M. MAYER (Attorney for the Defendant Braune): morrow's session, in order that he may prepare his defense.
THE PRESIDENT: The Defendant Braune will be excused from attendance in court tomorrow so that he may prepare his defense.
DR. ERICH M. MAYER: Thank you very much.
THE PRESIDENT: Proceed, Mr. Walton.
Q. (By Mr. Walton): Colonel, just before the recess, I believe you stated on cross-examination that the Kommando Fuehrer Order, is that right?
A. Yes.
Q. Then you said that at some time later you had occasion to discuss this Order with General Ohlendorf. Did you also say that?
A. Yes.
Q. What was said at this discussion with General Ohlendorf?
A. During this conference the refusal, the revulsion, and the objection which everyone had about this order were discussed.
Q. Did you have anything to say at this discussion?
A. That was a conversation in which everyone had his say, yes.
Q. Did you express any regrets that this Order had to be carried out?
A. Yes, I regretted that such an Order, against which I objected, had been given.
Q. You told this to General Ohlendorf?
A. Yes
Q. Did you ask General Ohlendorf to relieve you and send you back to Berlin?
A. I did not do that because I saw no opportunity. As a soldier, it was completely clear to me that without any reason I could not simply be sent to Berlin, and therefore, I saw no possibility for Ohlendorf to do that. I had no personal connections with Streckenbach either. I hardly knew him.
Q. Could you have applied through regular channels for transfer, since you were considered too valuable to serve with the Wehrmacht? Couldn't you have applied through regular channels for transfer back to your job in Berlin?
A. In peacetime this was possible in Germany, but in time of war, I had to do my duty wherever I was ordered.
Q. You considered it your duty to carry out this Fuehrer Order, regardless of your own convictions?
A. I did not carry out this Fuehrer Order.
Q. You didn't know thaw though when you were in Duebin and Pretzsch whether you would have to carry it out or not?
A. No, of course not.
Q. That's where the discussion took place with General Ohlendorf, didn't it?
A. The reason was that in the meantime I had been informed of the Fuehrer Order and the kommando leaders and I discussed this matter with Ohlendorf.
Q. Let us pass on to another point. What was your principal duty when Einsatzgruppe D Headquarters moved into a town?
A. My mission was the same as If we were in a small locality. I immediately had to start making out reports about the attitude of the population and to make up reports about the fields which I have already mentioned.
Q. From what sources did you take samples of the morale of the population?
A. My sources were the reports of the kommandos.
Q. Did you ever negotiate yourself with the Jewish Council of Elders to find out what the morale of the population was?
A. I never negotiated with the Jewish Council of Elders.
A. Did you ever receive the registration lists of the Jewish Council of Elders?
A. No, I had nothing to do with that.
Q. Did you ever see any?
A. No, there was no such list in the staff.
Q. Were lists ever made up of gypsies, Soviet party members and commissars within an area?
A. I do not know. There were no such lists in the staff.
Q. You knew that these people were being given special treatment, because they were a threat to the security of the armed forces, did you not.
A. Yes, I knew that.
Q. As a matter of your own opinion, based on your experience as an army of officer and based on your service with Einsatzgruppe D, would not it have been an adequate security measure, both from a police and a military standpoint to have deprived all Jews and gypsies and Soviet party members who were not partisans of their liberty?
A. I cannot judge this, Mr. Prosecutor. I do not have the possibility of judging this.
Q. You had experience as an army officer, didn't you?
A. Yes, but not about such extensive questions which occur during wars between ideologies. My experience did not fit this situation.
Q. You read activity and situation reports of the kommandos, didn't you?
A. I have read many reports, yes.
Q. And it was then your job to determine what parts of those situation and activity reports should be extracted for transmission to Berlin, wasn't it?
A. The reports in which executions were listed......
Q. That's not what I asked you, Witness. I asked you if it was your job to extract from these reports.....
A. Yes.
Q. .......facts to be transmitted to Berlin. Now, these reports from the Einsatzkommando leaders gave you the situation and activities, didn't they?
A. They didn't describe it to me, but I got them, yes.
Q. Yes, and from your knowledge of the activities you were able to judge whether or not these people should be liquidated from a standpoint of security in your own mind, were you not?
A. N o, I could not judge that.
Q. Could not or would not?
A. I could not, because the facts at the particular place were never known to me.
Q. Did you ever personally conduct an investigation to determine what an individual Jew or gypsy had done in order to deserve to be executed?
A. I never did this during my entire stay in Russia.
Q. Did you ever see a report of investigation made by someone else that such people were guilty of some crime against the German forces?
A. No, I cannot recall........
Q. As a matter of fact, were ever such reports made in individual cases?
A. I cannot say, Mr. Prosecutor. I only saw the summarized reports which the kommandos sent on to the group. No documents were attached to this.
Q. You made inspections to the different kommando headquarters from time to time, did you not?
A. Yes.
Q. And you inspected the files in each kommando, didn't you?
A. No, I didn't inspect the files, but with my expert III I discussed matters in detail and I gave this man advice and guidance.
Q. When you made an inspection of a kommando alone and General Ohlendorf was not with you, would not your Inspection include all phases of the activity of a kommando?
A. No, they did not. I have already told.....
Q. How did you know then that the reports which they sent to you were true?
A. I could not know. I did not know. I did not know whether the reports were true.
Q. And you sent these reports on to Berlin as a true factual picture of the situation not knowing whether they were true or not?
A. I did not pass them on, but I drafted them and then submitted them to the Chief of the Einsatzgruppe for his signature.
Q. Yes, but you put in there facts which you had gotten from the reports of the kommando leaders?
A. I did not put them in there, but this was merely repeating whatever the kommando report said.
Q. That's right. Now, then, how did you know this to be the truth?
A. To determine that was not my job. In view of these reports, I neither had the right nor the mission to make any inquiries or to make any decisions or to make any inspections.
Q. All right. It was your responsibility to protect the Chief of Einsatzgruppe D in the matter of making report, was it not?
A. Yes.
Q. And to discharge this responsibility you had to put in these reports facts, did you not?
A. Yes, I had the responsibility.
Q. And in 12 months' time you never questioned a single fact which was submitted to you by a kommando leader?
A. My answer was not complete, Mr. Prosecutor. I had the responsibility that whatever was summarized in the report from the kommando or was added to another situation report that these two would agree. That was my responsibility, but it was never my mission to start investigations whether in this particular field this report was correct.
two reports were alike could have been the same for anyone who could use a typewriter, could it not? could use a typewriter could have performed that job, couldn't he? them to the General for his signature, couldn't he? sturmbannfuehrer while you were with the group part of the time. Do you mean to tell me that it was a responsibility and a job of a Lieutenant Colonel or an Obersturmbannfuehrer to make the reports that a Private could make?
A No. I do not mean to say this. Furthermore, I was not a Lieutenant Colonel during the whole time, was drafted as a major and later after five or six months was promoted. But in the spheres in which I made out the reports, namely my SD reports, I, of course, had to worry about these matters, and I did so. 1941, weren't you?
Q And you didn't leave Einsatzgruppe D until June of 1942? Einsatzgruppe D you were a lieutenant colonel, were you not?
A Yes. I merely said, "not during the entire time".
preparing reports during this time?
A No, it wasn't that simple. I had to do the work which an information man would have to perform. assignments of the Einsatzgruppe come through you? The daily orders or any orders were sent to the commandos from the army by the liaison officer who was with Army for that purpose. officer of Einsatzgruppe D with the army?
A No. This was another major. The difference is the following: With the staff of the 11th Army for the entire period of the assignment there was an SS liaison officer who lived with the staff and who worked with the staff every day mostly in the office of the G-2. In the staff of Einsatzgruppe D it was my job first to make out the reports for the Army, to maintain contact with the agencies who got the reports, to carry on conferences with these agencies, to report results of partisan reconnaissance, and to work on all military decorations for members of the Einsatzgruppe D. discharge of your task? between the chief of staff and the agencies under his command so that it might happen that for example I would frequently visit the G-4 officer more frequently than I would visit any other officer.
Q What was the task of the G-4 in the army?