Q. Did this execution take place on the road?
A. No, this was not a main road. This road which we had to take was nearby.
Q. How far from the actual road did the shooting take place?
A. Maybe one-hundred meters.
Q. So you got out of the vehicle and walked one-hundred meters and there witnessed the shooting?
A. That is one-hundred meters, yes.
Q. But you could tell before you walked these one-hundred meters what was about to take place there?
A. Yes, I could. I noticed this by the blocking off and a guard told us.
Q. So of your own free will you went to actually witness this shooting
A. This road or this path was about one-hundred meters from the vehcile, and I walked to accompany the Einsatzgruppe Chief, yes.
Q. All right. Now tell us about the second place?
A. This was a place near Kitschinew.
Q. How far away was that scene of execution from the headquarters of Kommando XI-A?
A. This was not the commando itself, Your Honor, but a subkommando near Kitschinew.
Q. All right.
A. He had visited the commando in Kitschinew, and had spent the night there, and on the next morning we proceeded on the way back to our garrison, and we also visited a subkommando, and at the place where this subkommando was, this execution took place. The people of this subkommando were not in the headquarters. There was merely a non-commissioned officer, or a private, who gave the information that the men were carrying out this execution in a certain direction from here.
This was the road, or the place where we had to pass, and we didn't spend any more time at this subkommando garrison, but we proceeded immediately, and thus I became a witness to an execution which I had mentioned.
Q. How far from the road did this execution take place?
A. It was in the woods. I can not give you an exact distance, but several hundred meters.
Q. So you got out of the vehicle and walked several hundred meters to witness this execution?
A. Yes, I walked that distance.
Q. Yes, now before you actually got to the scene of the execution, yo didn't know for what purposes the victims were to be shot?
A. I can not say that any more today.
Q. But did you or did you not know as you got out of the vehicle and walked to the scene of the execution, in both instances, what the victims were accused of having done, or why they were being shot, did you or did you not know?
A. Your Honor, I can not answer this yes or no, because I simply no longer know whether the non-commissioned officer at the headquarters of the sub-kommando told us what kind of people were to be executed there. I really don't know, or whether I heard it at the place from the officer there.
Q. Then you include the possibility that as you walked to the scene o the execution it was possible that these people were being shot merely because they were Jews?
A. It could have been, yes.
Q. It could have been that you were aware of the fact that they were being shot, or, at least that you were informed that they were being shot because they were Jews. You included that possibility?
A. Your Honor, I didn't know about this before, and I can no longer say today whether in this second case I was informed previously what these people had done.
Q. Let's take the first case, then. Did you know in the first case, as you got out of your vehicle and walked to the scene of the execution, did you know for what the men were being shot?
A. No.
Q. No. So, therefore, they could have been sentenced for racial reasons so far as you knew?
A. That was entirely possible, Your Honor.
Q. And was that also possible in the second case?
A. The possibility existed, yes.
Q. Yes, so it was only by sheer chance that although you witnessed only two executions insofar as this particular paragraph three is concerned, it was only by chance that although the victims could have been shot only for racial reasons, that it developed that they were not shot for this purpose but because they were sabotuers and looters?
A. Yes, I was informed of this, that these were looters and sabotuers.
Q. It was only by chance that these two executions which you -witness happened to be executions of sabotuers and looters?
A. Yes.
Q. Because you didn't know before you went for what they were being shot?
A. No, I didn't.
THE PRESIDENT: Proceed, Dr. Gawlik. BY DR. GAWLIK.:
Q. During these events were you alone?
A. No, I was in the escort of Einsatzgruppe Chief.
Q. During these trips were you, therefore, independent to make your own decision, or will you please describe the condition. Who gave the order for the trip?
A. Of course, the Chief. The Chief determined the direction of the trip, I travelled with him.
Q. And who gave the order when the car was to stop?
A. Of course, the Chief also.
Q. Who ordered when you were to get out of the vehicle?
A. The same thing, the Chief.
Q. And if the Chief got out, could you remain in the vehicle?
A. This was not customary. Then I would have to get out, too.
Q. Was this the reason why you got out?
A. Because I had to, you mean? Yes, this was the customary way in which I had to act.
THE PRESIDENT: Witness, I understood you to say in answer to one of my questions that you went of your own free will from the vehicle to the scenes of these executions. Do I now understand you to say that in effect Ohlendorf ordered you to accompany him is that right?
THE WITNESS: No, Ohlendorf didn't order me to.
Q. Therefore, you went in accordance with your will?
A. I got out of my own free will and accompanied Ohlendorf, but it would not have been customary that I should have remained in the vehicle by myself. BY DR. GAWLIK:
Q. Maybe you can explain to the Tribunal why Ohlendorf didn't give you the order to get out and come along?
THE PRESIDENT: I think we can assume Dr. Gawlik, that if he is travelling with his Chief, and the Chief gets out of the car, that he would naturally get out with him. I think that is a natural thing.
DR. GAWLIK: Well, I just thought in order to clarify this that I'd have to ask this question, whether he got out of this vehicle of his own free will, completely at his own free will.
THE PRESIDENT: The only point that it seems the Tribunal wanted to clear up was the fact he was not directly ordered to nor on the other hand was he denied the possibility of remaining in the vehicle, if he chose to do so.
DR. GAWLIK: May I ask another question about this?
THE PRESIDENT: Certainly.
BY DR. GAWLIK:
Q. Could you have remained in the vehicle?
A. It would not have occurred to me to remain in it.
THE PRESIDENT: It certainly would not be customary for you to remain in the vehicle when your Chief got out of the car. Let me put this question to you. If for any reasons of your own you didn't want to witness an execution, you could have said to your Chief, "I would prefer to remain in the vehicle." That you could have done, could you not?
THE WITNESS: Yes, Your Honor. BY DR. GAWLIK:
Q. Was the participation in these executions the purpose of these trips?
A. Usually the trips took place without preparation, that is, without previous announcements to the commando. Especially in the case when the Chief was present himself, never the purpose of these trips.
Q. Was it part of your mission and your activity to attend these executions?
A. No.
Q. Did you have any function or activity that you exercised during the executions?
A. No, I didn't.
Q. Would you have had the possibility to prevent these executions?
A. I didn't see this possibility. Certainly it would have been made clear to me that this is none of my business.
Q. Now, I come to another point. Did you give any orders for the isolation of Communists in the Russian Prisoner of War Camps?
A. No, I gave no such orders.
Q. Who gave such orders, or on the basis of what orders did those measures rest?
A. These measures were based on an agreement between the Chief of the Security Police and the Supreme Command of the Army, and were made known to the Einsatzgruppen and the Einsatzkommandos, and also were known to the Army Units.
Q. Did you ever pass on such orders?
A. No, I didn't pass on such orders.
Q. Do you know whether such orders were carried out in the area of Einsatzgruppe-D?
A. In the area of Einsatzgruppe-D I know of no such case. I said the in the affidavit when Mr. Wartenberg questioned me.
Q. Please look at this affidavit of 1 April 1947, this is in Document Book III-D, page 36, in the English text, and, page 63, in the German text, which is Exhibit No. 158, Document NO-2859. It is on the bottom of page 3 and on page 4 may I direct your attention to No. 5 of this affidavit. What did you mean to say by this statement under No. 5?
A. I meant to express, and I think I did express that I didn't have the order to seggregate, or to make any seggregation in the prisoner of war camps, and the fact that anything like that happened was only generally known to me.
Q. I now come to another point, on page 239 of the German Record, the Prosecution has stated that your cooperation with Ohlendorf was close and complete in every detail. Please comment on this?
A. The cooperation with the Chief of the Einsatzgruppe Ohlendorf was not any closer and more distant than it was between a military superior and a subordinate in the operational area.
A. Furthermore, the Prosecution has stated that you knew of the most secret details with which the Einsatzgruppe had dealings. This is on page 239 of the German transcript. Are these statements correct?
A. I do not know what is meant by the "Most secret details." I was not present at all conferences, for example, I was never present when the Chief of the Einsatzgruppen spoke to the commander of the 11th Army, or in many cases even with other officers; in many cases with kommando-leaders. Therefore, I do not know that there were conferences, and about the special situations where discussions took place, or which didn't come to my knowledge. I personally didn't handle any secret matters or documents; but all documents and files and orders, that is, the secret orders and secret reports were all in the Orderly Room, and were deposited there.
I personally didn't handle any of them.
Q. On the basis of the knowledge which you obtained through the reports, could you have prevented any measures which Einsatzgruppe-D had carried out?
A. I saw no possibility to do this. For apart from the fact that I heard through reports later on about these events, the Chief of the Einsatzgruppe could not do so himself and I even less so.
Q. Did you give any order for the killing or the mistreatment of Russian citizens?
A. No, I didn't.
Q. Did you pass on any such orders?
A. No.
Q. From Document Book III-D, page 50 of the English text, page 84 of the German, I submit to you Exhibit No. 162, Document NO-2969, which is the recommendation for you promotion. There it says that from the 15 May 1941 to the 15 August you had been transferred to Einsatzgruppe-D, is that correct? That is page 52 of the English.
A. May I have the German page, please?
Q. Page 84. From 15 May 1941 to 15 August, 1942, SS-Sturmbannfuehre Seibert had been transferred to Einsatzgruppe-D.
A. The dates are not correct. I can merely explain this by saying that on 15 May 1941 is the date on which the Einsatzgruppen were generally activated. I personally was called to this staff of Einsatzgruppe the middle of June. The date, 15 august 1942, is also incorrect. During that time I was already in Berlin for six weeks. It may be that through the furlough afterwards, and when I later reported to the RSHA, such date came up. I don't know. It is the same document in which the typographical error can be shown which can be gathered from the comparison of the various pages
Q. Several lines farther down it reads: "That you were especially meritorious in your assignments." Will you please comment on this?
A. I can not judge this very well myself.
Q. This is the fourth sentence after the one which I have just mentioned: "He was very meritorious in his assignments," on page 2 of the original. Will you please comment on this?
A. I have already said that I can not judge this very well, but I might say that it was not the job alone of the Einsatzgruppen or the Einsatzkommandos to execute the Fuehrer Order, for even if there had been no Fuehrer Order, there certainly would have been Einsatz-agencies, as in every occupied area which was occupied by the German Army. The commissions of the Einsatzgruppen outside of executing this Fuehrer Order was quite unambiguous, the ones which exist in every occupied area namely, first of all, the Securit Commission for order, as was quite common in occupied areas, and, secondly, the SD Commission, namely, the report about the morale and the situation in the fields in which I have mentioned, and, thirdly, orders which resulted from the liaison with the Army, and which came from the Army. That is, from the harvest down to the front assignments; so that there were possibilities gain some merit in other fields. Especially, if the fact applied that the individual concerned had distinguished himself in combat, this was always important for such recommendations.
THE PRESIDENT: Shall we take our recess now, Dr. Gawlik. The Tribunal will be in recess until 1:45 P.M.
THE MARSHAL: The Tribunal will recess until 1345 hours.
(The Tribunal recessed until 1345 house, 18 November 1945) (The Tribunal reconvened at 1345 hours)
THE MARSHAL: The Tribunal is again in session. BY DR. GAWLIK:
Q Before the recess we discussed Document No. 2969 in Document Book III-D, page 50 of the English, page 84 of the German, Exhibit 162 - the recommendation for promotion - and you made a statement about the promotion. Please tell the Tribunal why this recommendation for promotion was made during the war, and on what it was based. always depended on whether the person concerned had proved himself well in the assignment at the front.
Q Did this apply to you as well?
A Yes, this applied to me. Repeatedly I had opportunity - ment at the front?
A If I may give an example concerning this: By orders of the Eleventh Army, Major Stephanus -- he was a general staff officer -I took part in the recapture of the locality of Feodosia. It is on the southern coast of the Crimea. The Russian troops had landed there, had recaptured the city, and had advanced towards the road to Simferopol. I was engaged in combat during the recapturing of the city, upon the order of this Major, and also owing to other assignments against partisans, and against troops who had landed - troops constantly landed throughout the entire coast of the Crimea.... owing to all these assignments, but in particular the assignment near Feodosia, the Commander in Chief of the Eleventh Army, General Field Marshal von Mannstein gave me the Iron Cross as a distinction for special merit. For that reason it can be explained that another recommendation for promotion which is also contained in this document may have had a quite different basis
Q I beg your pardon, witness, which document are you referring to?
DR. GAWLIK: It is in Document Book III-D, Your Honor; Exhibit 162, No. 2969, page 50 of the English text. 1941. At that time, after I had already been in Russia for five months it was stated as follows as the foundation for the promotion: "Seibert is permanent deputy of Gruppenleiter III-D, Economics Department in the RSHA, and has proved himsefl worthy in every respect." It is mentioned at the end that I was informed in writing. I also explained it by the fact that all my assignments at the front took plane between January 1942 until about May 1942. special merits are mentioned - were you promoted after that?
A No, I was not promoted. The qualification apparently was not sufficient. I was promoted a year later.
Q I now come to another point. When did you return from Russia? of June 1942.
A Where were you active after that? in the Economics Group. after you returned from Russian until the end of the war? year of the wax, 1944, I became Gruppenleiter Economics myself.
Q Were you deputy of the Office Chief of Office III?
Q Who was the deputy of Office Chief III?
any of the four chiefs deputized for the Chief during his absence. Everyone in his sphere, in his group. reached, who made the decision as deputy to the Office Chief? sphere this question fell.
Q How did you sign your reports?
A Reports which I signed myself, I signed: "Acting For", because in this sphere of the Group Economics I was the deputy to the Office Chief. This did not only apply to me, but it was the same with any other Group leader.
Q This signature, "Acting For" - does it not prove that you were the deputy of the Office Chief? and if the Group Chief signed "Acting For" for his branch, for law and administration, then he was deputy for the Office Chief of his branch, Law and Administration. other group or in any office of the RSHA?
A No. I was never ordered to go there to receive information, not even when I started my work, but I resumed my activity immediately in the Department Economics at the time. return from Russia?
A The work was exactly the same. I had the same position as I had before my assignment in Russia. Now, as ever, I had to observe, and to report, the effects of the decrees and measures by the Ministries of Economics and other agencies on the population and in the economic sphere. It was always the some task.
Q Did you ever deal with any executive measures at all?
81 of the German, Exhibit 161, Document No. 2858. This is your affidavit. Under paragraph 2 you state that in the fall of 1933 you joined the NSDAP. Do you want to add anything to this statement? local group of the Party in Hannover, my old home town, and in April 1933 I was accepted in the Party. In the actual active life of the Party I was never able to take part. I never got to know the local group.
Q Where were you in May 1945? received an order to go to Northern Germany.
Q Were you taken prisoner there? members of the last Doenitz government - I officially reported to the English military authorities. The English liaison officer with the Doenitz government asked me after the capitulation to secure officers, both members of this last government. I was in Hamburg repeatedly... In Luebeck, and Kiel, and other cities - with the approval of the English authorities, with papers which have been transferred to Nuernberg here among my personal files. On 23 May 1945 I was arrested, together with the members of this last government, and came to a prisoner-of-war camp, and I have been in prison ever since.
DR. GAWLIK: Your Honor, thank you. I have no further questions.
THE PRESIDENT: Do any of defense counsel wish to cross examine? BY DR. KOESSL (for Defendant Schubert): authority?
A Schubert could not make reports on his own authority. Naturally he did make some reports, as the occasion arose, about personnel, and the personnel situation, and these reports were utilized in the entire reporting service.
in reporting? tive situations, and from time to time he utilized this in a report.
Q Were there independent reports about the personnel situation?
A These items were added to a report, and I made the report. Then Schubert gave me the documents for this, which have been accepted.
Q Do I understand you correctly.... these were contributions to that part of reports which were called, the so-called "Local Reports"? situation?
A Yes. While being questioned by Mr. Wartenberg I explained this to him unambiguously, and Mr. Wartenberg told me that this could be shown from my affidavit, where it says, "from time to time or as the occasion arose" and that was all that concerned Schubert. you described the reports, and as they were not submitted as documents. given to relatives of people who had taken part in the war was part of your task. Can you tell us why Schubert received the Iron Cross, Second Class? who had been wounded, in which I also took part. That was in March and April 1942. Apart from that he had also taken part in anti-partisan fighting; and that was the basis which led to a recommendation for a distinction of merit. This recommendation, of course, did not originate from me. The officer of the Army who was concerned, who was in charge during this combat action, that is, the Battalion Commander of the German Battalion, or in one case it was the Battalion Commander of a Rumanian Battalion.
.. they made the recommendations, and these recommendations were submitted to the Eleventh Army, to the G-1 officer there. BY THE PRESIDENT:
Q Was the Iron Cross purely a combat decoration?
Q It was never awarded for administrative achievements? If I may add, at the beginning of the war, and during the first World War, the Iron Cross was awarded - first as a distinction for bravery, and secondly to higher troop officers in the staffs, but only from the staff of an army upwards. The operation officer of that army received it without having taken part in the fighting. The second way was prohibited, as far as I remember, in 1941 or 1942, and from that time onwards the Iron Cross was only given for actual bravery in combat. you the Iron Cross? charge of Kommando 10, or rather, I was to look for it.
Q Why were you to look for it? in Feodosia, and that the city had been captured by the Russians, the city where the Kommando had been. And I looked for the Kommando in order to find out whether they got away at all. I found this Kommando in a locality called the Stari Krim, that is on the road from Simferopol and Feodosia, about 20 kilometers to the west of Feodosia. The Russians had already advanced very close to this locality. There I found the Kommando leader and the major in the general staff, Stephanus, of the Eleventh Army, and this major was in charge of the entire Kommando 10-B, and had already joined them under the leadership of his kommando leader.
As soon as I arrived he gave me the order to set up an armed reconnaissance troop, and to see to it that the troops who were withdrawing to the left and the right of the street would be put into a position again, and I arranged that.
Q And for that you got the Iron Cross?
A No, Your Honor, I carried out this task. I brought back reconnaissance reports - how far the Russians had advanced. Secondly, when I had put the German and Rumanian soldiers back into a position, in these positions, I fought with the unit myself, and advanced with this very unit until we recaptured the city of Feodosia.
Q What weapon did you use at the front?
AApart from the infantry arms, there was only anti-aircraft. No other big guns existed. The Russians had already captured them because they were at the coast for advance purposes. The situation was so grave that the commander in chief of the army at that time himself considered the Crimea lost because apart from technical companies, no large units existed any more.
Q Well, then, you had command of a detachment actually in combat?
Q How many men did you have under you?
Q Were they riflemen?
Q. Well now, while you were in charge of this detachment, were you still part of the Einsatzgruppen?
A. Yes, owing to the agreement between the Chief of the Security Police and the Commander-in-Chief of the Army, we always had the right to assign units of the Einsatgruppen and also to give orders to individuals if the military situation required it.
Q. So that while you were with the Einsatzgruppen you did more than merely make up reports?
A. Yes, I did more than just write reports, Your Honor.
Q. I noticed in the personnel record that you received the Sword of Honor. What was the exploit which brought about this decoration?
A. I received the Sword of Honor of the SS already before the war, as far as I remember. It was awarded after a certain period of time of membership with this formation-a measure merely based on time without having to show any special merits.
Q. Was this given to all those who had achieved a certain seniority in SS ranks?
A. Yes, Your Honor, all leaders.
Q. How many years were required to earn the Sword of Honor?
A. I may be mistaken but I estimate two or three years membership in the SS, Your Honor, as leader.
Q. Did you actually get a sword?
A. A sword?
Q. Well, the personnel record calls the decoration a "Sword of Honor." Did they actually give you a sword?
A. As a weapon I received a real officer's sword.
Q. How long was this sword?
A. The sword was rather uncomfortable, Your Honor. I preferred to wear my officer's sword because it was much COURT II CASE IX shorter and it was much easier to carry.
Q. Well, they had to give out a lot of swords then, didn't they?
A. Yes. I, myself, had four swords at home: 2 from the Army, one long sword, and a short one--a dagger--the officer's dagger. I had the same again for the SS: the long sword, and an SS leader's dagger.
Q. Did you ever use these swords to attack anybody?
A. No, never, Your Honor.
Q. Well, I see you also received the Yule Candlesticks. Now what did you do to get the Yule Candlesticks?
A. Your Honor, these Yule Candlesticks were the same gift by the SS for every SS leader at yuletide. If one had become an SS leader, according to his files, he automatically had these candlesticks sent to him, and he received a new candle every year for each candlestick. This all happened according to the files.
Q. Well, between all your swords and all your candles you must have had quite a collection?
A. I only had one candlestick.
Q. All right, you may proceed, please. BY DR. KOESSL:
Q. Witness, Schubert received the Iron Cross for bravery in combat against the armed enemy?
A. Yes.
Q. Who awarded Schubert the Iron Cross?
A. The commander-in-chief of the 11th army personally issued the award and signed it for this distinction for Schubert.
Q. With the permission of the Tribunal, I would like to address a few more questions as deputy for Dr. Hoffmann for the defendant Nosske.
THE PRESIDENT: You may. BY DR. KOESSL:
Q. Witness, under whom was the area of Transnistria? Under whose sovereignty?
A. The territory of Transnistria was to the northwest of Nikolaev and was under the sovereignty, after August of 1941 approximately, of the Rumanians. It was Rumanian sovereign territory.
Q. Which offices of the ethnic German settlement offices were located in Transnistria?
A. At first Commando 12 had to deal with these ethnic German settlements; later on this commando was relieved by a commando of the ethnic German office.
Q. Who made agreements with the Rumanians which were regulated by the conditions of the ethnic German office?
A. The final arrangments were made by the chief Hoffmeier--Oberfuehrer Hoffmeier--for ethnic German office with the Rumanian General.
Q. Did the German army command also take part in these agreements?
A. The Army command also had to take part, yes.
Q. Between the Rumanian and the German army staff, did they make any agreements after the territory of Transnistria had already been declared Rumanian sovereign territory?
A. I don't know that; I cannot give any details about that.
Q. Thank you. I have no further questions.
THE PRESIDENT: Any other defense counsel desire to cross examine? You may proceed, Mr. Walton. BY MR. WALTON:
Q. Did you testify on direct examination that you had gone to the officers' training school and had successfully passed your officer's examination?
A. Yes.
Q. This was in the year 1935, was it not?
A. Yes.
Q. When you left the army for work in the SD, did you not state on direct examination that you were put on a reserve officer's status?
A. The status of a reserve officer, yes.
Q. Now from the facts which you related yesterday, service in the SD was a voluntary act on your part, was it not?
A. At the time, if I may say that, I had received instructions by the District III--or rather it had been intended that I, as a Lieutenant, was to go to the infantry regiment 46 in Spandau. The Military Command III assigned me to the infantry regiment 46 in Spandau. The Military Command III assigned me to Spandau near Berlin. I did not want to remain this type of officer, but because I could not realize my aims to go into the economic department of the army, I therefore agreed that the SD main office should release me from the Military Command III--and they approved this, yes.
Q. You applied for relief from active duty in Military Command III in order to go into the SD, is that not true?
A. I went voluntarily; whether I personally made an application, I don't remember now.
Q. Then you entered the SD service voluntarily, you say?
A. Yes.
Q. Now, I believe you testified further yesterday that when you first came to service in the SD your rating compared COURT II CASE IX with a private first-class, or you were given the rating of Unterscharfuehrer in the SD when you reported?
A. My first rank in the SD was Unterscharfuehrer, yes.
Q. And also you spoke yesterday that you were promised a commensurate rating with the rank that you held in the army if you would come into the SD for service?
A. Yes.
Q. Well, didn't you feel when you left the army as a lieutenant and was given only a low ranking non-commissioned officer's rating in the SS that you were unfairly treated?
A. Yes, I not only believed this but I also expressed this continuously.
Q. Then why did you stay in the SS?
A. Mr. Prosecutor, I did not join the SS but I went into the economic department of the SD as referent for a certain task, and this was the profession which I had chosen.
Q. In other words, you were willing to undertake any task since you had determined to make your career with the SS and the SD, were you not?
A. No, that is quite wrong, Mr. Prosecutor, for I agreed to it for that reason of transfer because here the economic department was being set up, and national economic experts, lawyers, technicians, and so forth, were required. I would never have acepted any other position.
Q. Did you continue your military training as a reserve officer after you went on an inactive status?
A. Yes.
THE PRESIDENT: Mr. Walton, I don't know that an answer has been forthcoming to your question about a willingness to take a non-commissioned officer's status in the SD an against a commissioned officer's status in the Wehrmacht.
MR. WALTON: Sir, I understood the witness to say that COURT II CASE IX this department was being set up; that in effect he wanted to get in the department as it started; and therefore he went in while he acted as a referent or SD referent.