The commando 11A was southwest of Simferopol in the Jaila Mountains, for some time in Bachtschissaraij and in Kokoai. I estimate the distance as far as I remember at more than 100 kilometers. The Commando 10A was in Taganrog, had some subcommandos in Mariupol and as I estimate it, about six to seven hundred kilometers. The Commando 12 was north of the Commando 10A, that is, in the area north of Malitopol-Mariupol. The distance was more than 700 kilometers from Simferopol.
BY DR. GAWLIK:
Q. Now, I have the following question. If the commando leader at Taganrok needed an immediate decision and he would have come to the group staff, how long would it have taken him?
A. With the best possible conditions, that is, with good driving weather, it would have taken him about two days, but on our trip we often needed more than one week in order to reach that place, for the roads which led there were usually field paths. Usually we got stuck one or two days.
Q. And to whom would the commando leader in Taganrok have turned if he needed an immediate decision?
A. If he could not make it himself, he could only turn to his army corps which was in his area, in his garrison. BY THE PRESIDENT:
Q. What were the communication facilities between that point and the staff headquarters?
A. Outside of the courier service there were radio communications.
Q. Well, it wouldn't take a radio communication two days to get to staff headquarters, would it?
A. No, No. It would not have taken that long.
Q. It wouldn't have taken practically any time, it would have been almost instantaneous, would it not?
A. Yes. BY DR. GAWLIK:
Q. And if such a radio message had come, the commando leader in Taganrok would have radioed you, "I need an immediate decision in such and such question", Ohlendorf was not te to reached, what would you have answered him then?
A. I could only have said to him, "You are the representative of Ohlendorf in this area, you must decide by yourself", Of course, I would have given him information if it were possible, and I would have given him good advice if that would have been necessary, but he only could make the decision.
Q. And if all four commando leaders had come together to the group staff and a decision would have had to be made and those four commando leaders could not have agreed, Ohlendorf was not to be reached, who would then have made the decision?
A. Only the senior commando leader could make such decision especially since it was known to air commando leaders that Office I had formally designated him as the deputy.
Q. Who was that?
A. That was Standartenfuehrer Seetzen, the commando leader of 10A. BY THE PRESIDENT:
Q. What is his name, I didn't catch it, please?
A. The name is Seetzen, S-E-E-T-Z-E-N. BY DR. GAWLIK:
Q. Please look at Document Book IIID, page 69 of the German, page 39 of the English text. This is Document Exhibit 116, Document NOKW 628, on page 71 of the German text under Number 1 it is listed that it is said that the Crimea has been freed of Jews.
This is the second page of the original, your Honor, page 48 of the English text. Did you give any orders to carry out this measure?
A. No. This could only have been done on the basis of the given Fuehrerorder.
Q. Did you participate in these measures in any way?
A. No.
Q. On the basis of which orders were these measures carried out?
A. On the basis of the order given in Pretsch to the Einsatzgruppen chiefs and to the commando leaders.
Q. Could you have prevented the execution of this order?
A. I had no possibility to do that. I did not have the authority to prevent the order of the chief of state in any form from being carried out. I did not have the necessary rank nor the position.
Q. Did you order the shootings of partisans and their accomplices and terror groups?
A. No. I did not. This was not possible because I heard of these facts, rather I was informed about them through the reports of the commandos, that is to say, I only heard about them after the events had happened; therefore, I cannot say who was the individual who carried out these executions.
Q. In this report, the shooting of the Red Army man, Tor, is mentioned and of other people. Have you ordered this shooting?
A. The same thing is true here, what I have said before. I heard of this fact afterwards through a report, and the orders for this can only be traced back to the orders of the 11th army which were posted everywhere.
Q. Furthermore, this report mentions the execution of the NKVD agent, Kotschkelli as well as the execution of other people mentioned on page 72.
Q. Did you order these executions?
A. For all these cases the same is true, as I have said before. I heard about them afterwards through the reports, and I did not give such orders.
Q. On page 73 of the German text the hanging of communists in mentioned especially. This was emphasized especially by the prosecution. What is your comment on this?
A. On page 5 of the original there is a mistake, which changes the sense.
DR. GAWLIK: This is page 42 of the English document book, your Honor.
THE WITNESS: May I repeat that on this page 5 of the original, this is on page 43 of the English, there is a mistake which distorts the sense completely. In the middle of the page behind the word "hanged" there is a colon, and the persons who are listed here as having been hanged are the persons who were listed afterwards. When comparing this with the photostat, that is, with the original, it can be determined that behind the word "hanged" there is no colon but a period, and that the following sentence is omitted. I quote, "Furthermore, the following were arrested:" end of quote. That is, the people who are listed here as having been hanged, In reality.........
PRESIDENT: We don't seem to locate that, Dr. Gawlik, we don't seem to locate that in our copy. Do you have it, Mr. Walton?
Court No. II, Case No. IX.
DR. WALTON; Well, I am having the same difficulty as the court. I can't locate it.
DR. GAWLIK: It is on page 42 of the English transcript in the center.
THE PRESIDENT: Well, then it is page 5 of the original, as you told us?
DR. GAWLIK: I beg your pardon, page 4 of the original, and I see that the English document book is correctly translated. In the German document book the words "further were apprehended" are missing.
THE PRESIDENT: Well, that has made it clear.
THE WITNESS: The hangings then refers to the chief of the NKVD, to the saboteur, and to two partisan leaders who are mentioned before this sentence, but even as far as these hangings are concerned, I had nothing to do as far as giving orders and the carrying out are concerned, but these were announced to me through these reports. BY DR. GAWLIK:
Q. On the basis of which orders were these measures carried out?
A. On the basis of orders given by the 11th army, or as far as was necessary on the basis of the Fuehrerorder.
Q. Who passed these orders on to the Einsatzkommandos?
A. The Fuehrerorder was known to the Einsatzkommandos and the orders of the 11th Army were posted everywhere, as I have said.
Q. On page 80 of the German text, this is page 8 of the original, the last page, mention is made of the planned further assignment of the subcommandos. This is on page 46 of the English. Did you order this assignment?
A. The order for the assignment of the commandos did not belong to my sphere. Here the commando 11A states that the main commando had been transferred from Bachtschissaraij to Kokosi, The message from this commando was received by me and incorporated into the report.
That is all that I had to do with the transfer of this commando.
Q. Now, I come to another point. Did you make any inspection trips within the area of Einsatzgruppe D?
A. Yes.
Q. What was your job and your mission in these inspection trips?
A. I had to deal with the SD reports, and I had the mission to speak to the Number 3 expert of the commando to give him directives, to make inspections with him, and visit his agencies in the army corps or divisions and, of course, I spoke to the commando leader, too.
Q. Did you make the inspection trips by yourself?
A. Most of the trips I made with the chief of the Einsatzgruppe, but some I made by myself.
Q. Was your job and your activity different in those trips in which you made alone from those activities during the inspection trips which you made with Ohlendorf?
A. No. There was no difference, During the trips with Ohlendorf I used the possibility his vehicle for these large distances and with the short amount of gasoline which we had, the scarce amount of gasoline which we had, this is why I used this possibility of getting transportation, but my mission had nothing to do with this.
Q. During your inspection trips did you ever attend any executions which were carried out on the basis of the Fuehrerorder?
A. No.
Q. From Document Book IIID, page 61 of the German, page 34 of the English, I submit to you Exhibit 158, Document 2859. This is your affidavit of the first of April 1947; under Number 3 in this affidavit, page 2 of the original, you have made statements about inspection trips, and your attendance during two executions.
What is your comment on this?
A. These are not executions of people on the basis of the Fuehrerorder but people who had committed violations against martial law, and they were executed for this reason. BY THE PRESIDENT:
Q. Did you know that before you went to the execution?
A. No, Your Honor, I did not knew that.
Q. When did you find out the purpose of the exeuction?
A. I learned it at the place by conversing with the commando leader and the Einsatzgruppe leader.
Q. Here you refer to, "I became a witness to these executions." How many exeuctions?
A. These two executions, Your Honor.
Q. Well, the reading of the affidavit is not very specific as to how many exeuctions, "I remember that on at least two of these trips executions took place; I became a witness to these executions". These were two trips, but it doesn't say "two executions", it could have been more executions?
A. These were two inspection trips, Your Honor.
Q. Yes, but it says that on at least two of these trips executions took place which leaves the possibility of interpretation that on each trip more than one execution took place.
A. When reading this text this possibility of interpretation exists but, Your Honor, may I say that during my interrogation I clearly testified that these were two executions. I did not formulate this.
Q. All right, now give us the places of these executions.
A. One execution took place during a trip to the Commando 10A, May I point it out on the map?
Q. Please.
A. It was east of Jampol, as far as I remember, it might be the village of Petschanka, but I may be wrong. And when visiting this commando chief of the Einsatzgruppe and I arrived near the headquarters. This was a house which was away from the village. An execution took place there of four or five persons. I witnessed this execution and through the conversation I learned why these people had been executed.
Q. Do you remember the date?
A. I do not know exactly, Your Honor, but as far as I remember it must have been in August--August 1941.
Q. And then where was the second execution which you witnessed?
A. The second execution took place in the area of the Commando 11A near a place east of Kitschinew. I don't know exactly but on either side of this border east of Kitschinew.
Q. And how many were executed this time?
A. As far as I remember, about six people.
Q. And what were they executed for?
A. As the commando leader told us, they were executed because they had looted.
Q. And what were the people at Petschada executed for?
A. I remember that the commando leader told us that these people had set fire to a barn and had hoarded supplies, and had destroyed some sort of agricultural machinery.
Q. You didn't know about either of these cases before you went to the executions?
A. No, Your Honor. This was not the purpose of the trip, it was not known beforehand. We visited these commandos without previous announcement.
Q. Did your official duties require that you attend these executions?
A. No.
Q. Why did you go?
A. I did not go there, Your Honor, I became a witness because this happened at the Commando 10A near the headquarters. I was in the vehicle and by coincidence I became a witness to it.
THE PRESIDENT: How far away from the headquarters did these executions take place?
A. About three to four-hundred meters from a lonely house there.
Q. Well, let's take them individually. Let's take the one at Petschada. How far away from the headquarters did that execution take place;
A. As I just said, several hunder meters, about three to fourhundred meters from this house.
Q. Yes, four-hundred meters, that is about a half of a kilometer, isn't it?
A. Yes.
Q. So you drove to the place of the execution from the headquarters in your vehicle?
A. Yes.
Q. So, therefore, you went entirely voluntarily to witness this execution?
A. I didn't know anything about the execution, Your Honor.
Q. Why did you go to this place four-hundred meters away if your duties only required you to be at the headquarters?
A. Your Honor, we came to this house on the way, and we passed this place on the road. That is before we had entered the headquarters, and during this time I became a witness to it.
Q. Your didn't go to the headquarters first?
A. When the commando-leader had spoken with the Einsatzgruppe chief, we went into the headquarters.
Q. I still don't understand how you got to this execution without it being the result of your will. Tell us just how it happened. You were in a vehicle, and you were proceeding to what point?
A. I was riding in a vehcile with the chief of the Einsatzgruppe. We reached the town where the Einsatzcommando 10-A was stationed, and on the road which lead to this house -
Q. Which house?
A. Where the headquarters of the Einsatzcommando was located. Befor we arrived there on the road, before the house, about three or four hundred meters before the house we passed the place, and s topped at that place because the Einsatzcommando leader was there, and the road had been blocked off there.
Q. Did this execution take place on the road?
A. No, this was not a main road. This road which we had to take was nearby.
Q. How far from the actual road did the shooting take place?
A. Maybe one-hundred meters.
Q. So you got out of the vehicle and walked one-hundred meters and there witnessed the shooting?
A. That is one-hundred meters, yes.
Q. But you could tell before you walked these one-hundred meters what was about to take place there?
A. Yes, I could. I noticed this by the blocking off and a guard told us.
Q. So of your own free will you went to actually witness this shooting
A. This road or this path was about one-hundred meters from the vehcile, and I walked to accompany the Einsatzgruppe Chief, yes.
Q. All right. Now tell us about the second place?
A. This was a place near Kitschinew.
Q. How far away was that scene of execution from the headquarters of Kommando XI-A?
A. This was not the commando itself, Your Honor, but a subkommando near Kitschinew.
Q. All right.
A. He had visited the commando in Kitschinew, and had spent the night there, and on the next morning we proceeded on the way back to our garrison, and we also visited a subkommando, and at the place where this subkommando was, this execution took place. The people of this subkommando were not in the headquarters. There was merely a non-commissioned officer, or a private, who gave the information that the men were carrying out this execution in a certain direction from here.
This was the road, or the place where we had to pass, and we didn't spend any more time at this subkommando garrison, but we proceeded immediately, and thus I became a witness to an execution which I had mentioned.
Q. How far from the road did this execution take place?
A. It was in the woods. I can not give you an exact distance, but several hundred meters.
Q. So you got out of the vehicle and walked several hundred meters to witness this execution?
A. Yes, I walked that distance.
Q. Yes, now before you actually got to the scene of the execution, yo didn't know for what purposes the victims were to be shot?
A. I can not say that any more today.
Q. But did you or did you not know as you got out of the vehicle and walked to the scene of the execution, in both instances, what the victims were accused of having done, or why they were being shot, did you or did you not know?
A. Your Honor, I can not answer this yes or no, because I simply no longer know whether the non-commissioned officer at the headquarters of the sub-kommando told us what kind of people were to be executed there. I really don't know, or whether I heard it at the place from the officer there.
Q. Then you include the possibility that as you walked to the scene o the execution it was possible that these people were being shot merely because they were Jews?
A. It could have been, yes.
Q. It could have been that you were aware of the fact that they were being shot, or, at least that you were informed that they were being shot because they were Jews. You included that possibility?
A. Your Honor, I didn't know about this before, and I can no longer say today whether in this second case I was informed previously what these people had done.
Q. Let's take the first case, then. Did you know in the first case, as you got out of your vehicle and walked to the scene of the execution, did you know for what the men were being shot?
A. No.
Q. No. So, therefore, they could have been sentenced for racial reasons so far as you knew?
A. That was entirely possible, Your Honor.
Q. And was that also possible in the second case?
A. The possibility existed, yes.
Q. Yes, so it was only by sheer chance that although you witnessed only two executions insofar as this particular paragraph three is concerned, it was only by chance that although the victims could have been shot only for racial reasons, that it developed that they were not shot for this purpose but because they were sabotuers and looters?
A. Yes, I was informed of this, that these were looters and sabotuers.
Q. It was only by chance that these two executions which you -witness happened to be executions of sabotuers and looters?
A. Yes.
Q. Because you didn't know before you went for what they were being shot?
A. No, I didn't.
THE PRESIDENT: Proceed, Dr. Gawlik. BY DR. GAWLIK.:
Q. During these events were you alone?
A. No, I was in the escort of Einsatzgruppe Chief.
Q. During these trips were you, therefore, independent to make your own decision, or will you please describe the condition. Who gave the order for the trip?
A. Of course, the Chief. The Chief determined the direction of the trip, I travelled with him.
Q. And who gave the order when the car was to stop?
A. Of course, the Chief also.
Q. Who ordered when you were to get out of the vehicle?
A. The same thing, the Chief.
Q. And if the Chief got out, could you remain in the vehicle?
A. This was not customary. Then I would have to get out, too.
Q. Was this the reason why you got out?
A. Because I had to, you mean? Yes, this was the customary way in which I had to act.
THE PRESIDENT: Witness, I understood you to say in answer to one of my questions that you went of your own free will from the vehicle to the scenes of these executions. Do I now understand you to say that in effect Ohlendorf ordered you to accompany him is that right?
THE WITNESS: No, Ohlendorf didn't order me to.
Q. Therefore, you went in accordance with your will?
A. I got out of my own free will and accompanied Ohlendorf, but it would not have been customary that I should have remained in the vehicle by myself. BY DR. GAWLIK:
Q. Maybe you can explain to the Tribunal why Ohlendorf didn't give you the order to get out and come along?
THE PRESIDENT: I think we can assume Dr. Gawlik, that if he is travelling with his Chief, and the Chief gets out of the car, that he would naturally get out with him. I think that is a natural thing.
DR. GAWLIK: Well, I just thought in order to clarify this that I'd have to ask this question, whether he got out of this vehicle of his own free will, completely at his own free will.
THE PRESIDENT: The only point that it seems the Tribunal wanted to clear up was the fact he was not directly ordered to nor on the other hand was he denied the possibility of remaining in the vehicle, if he chose to do so.
DR. GAWLIK: May I ask another question about this?
THE PRESIDENT: Certainly.
BY DR. GAWLIK:
Q. Could you have remained in the vehicle?
A. It would not have occurred to me to remain in it.
THE PRESIDENT: It certainly would not be customary for you to remain in the vehicle when your Chief got out of the car. Let me put this question to you. If for any reasons of your own you didn't want to witness an execution, you could have said to your Chief, "I would prefer to remain in the vehicle." That you could have done, could you not?
THE WITNESS: Yes, Your Honor. BY DR. GAWLIK:
Q. Was the participation in these executions the purpose of these trips?
A. Usually the trips took place without preparation, that is, without previous announcements to the commando. Especially in the case when the Chief was present himself, never the purpose of these trips.
Q. Was it part of your mission and your activity to attend these executions?
A. No.
Q. Did you have any function or activity that you exercised during the executions?
A. No, I didn't.
Q. Would you have had the possibility to prevent these executions?
A. I didn't see this possibility. Certainly it would have been made clear to me that this is none of my business.
Q. Now, I come to another point. Did you give any orders for the isolation of Communists in the Russian Prisoner of War Camps?
A. No, I gave no such orders.
Q. Who gave such orders, or on the basis of what orders did those measures rest?
A. These measures were based on an agreement between the Chief of the Security Police and the Supreme Command of the Army, and were made known to the Einsatzgruppen and the Einsatzkommandos, and also were known to the Army Units.
Q. Did you ever pass on such orders?
A. No, I didn't pass on such orders.
Q. Do you know whether such orders were carried out in the area of Einsatzgruppe-D?
A. In the area of Einsatzgruppe-D I know of no such case. I said the in the affidavit when Mr. Wartenberg questioned me.
Q. Please look at this affidavit of 1 April 1947, this is in Document Book III-D, page 36, in the English text, and, page 63, in the German text, which is Exhibit No. 158, Document NO-2859. It is on the bottom of page 3 and on page 4 may I direct your attention to No. 5 of this affidavit. What did you mean to say by this statement under No. 5?
A. I meant to express, and I think I did express that I didn't have the order to seggregate, or to make any seggregation in the prisoner of war camps, and the fact that anything like that happened was only generally known to me.
Q. I now come to another point, on page 239 of the German Record, the Prosecution has stated that your cooperation with Ohlendorf was close and complete in every detail. Please comment on this?
A. The cooperation with the Chief of the Einsatzgruppe Ohlendorf was not any closer and more distant than it was between a military superior and a subordinate in the operational area.
A. Furthermore, the Prosecution has stated that you knew of the most secret details with which the Einsatzgruppe had dealings. This is on page 239 of the German transcript. Are these statements correct?
A. I do not know what is meant by the "Most secret details." I was not present at all conferences, for example, I was never present when the Chief of the Einsatzgruppen spoke to the commander of the 11th Army, or in many cases even with other officers; in many cases with kommando-leaders. Therefore, I do not know that there were conferences, and about the special situations where discussions took place, or which didn't come to my knowledge. I personally didn't handle any secret matters or documents; but all documents and files and orders, that is, the secret orders and secret reports were all in the Orderly Room, and were deposited there.
I personally didn't handle any of them.
Q. On the basis of the knowledge which you obtained through the reports, could you have prevented any measures which Einsatzgruppe-D had carried out?
A. I saw no possibility to do this. For apart from the fact that I heard through reports later on about these events, the Chief of the Einsatzgruppe could not do so himself and I even less so.
Q. Did you give any order for the killing or the mistreatment of Russian citizens?
A. No, I didn't.
Q. Did you pass on any such orders?
A. No.
Q. From Document Book III-D, page 50 of the English text, page 84 of the German, I submit to you Exhibit No. 162, Document NO-2969, which is the recommendation for you promotion. There it says that from the 15 May 1941 to the 15 August you had been transferred to Einsatzgruppe-D, is that correct? That is page 52 of the English.
A. May I have the German page, please?
Q. Page 84. From 15 May 1941 to 15 August, 1942, SS-Sturmbannfuehre Seibert had been transferred to Einsatzgruppe-D.
A. The dates are not correct. I can merely explain this by saying that on 15 May 1941 is the date on which the Einsatzgruppen were generally activated. I personally was called to this staff of Einsatzgruppe the middle of June. The date, 15 august 1942, is also incorrect. During that time I was already in Berlin for six weeks. It may be that through the furlough afterwards, and when I later reported to the RSHA, such date came up. I don't know. It is the same document in which the typographical error can be shown which can be gathered from the comparison of the various pages
Q. Several lines farther down it reads: "That you were especially meritorious in your assignments." Will you please comment on this?
A. I can not judge this very well myself.
Q. This is the fourth sentence after the one which I have just mentioned: "He was very meritorious in his assignments," on page 2 of the original. Will you please comment on this?
A. I have already said that I can not judge this very well, but I might say that it was not the job alone of the Einsatzgruppen or the Einsatzkommandos to execute the Fuehrer Order, for even if there had been no Fuehrer Order, there certainly would have been Einsatz-agencies, as in every occupied area which was occupied by the German Army. The commissions of the Einsatzgruppen outside of executing this Fuehrer Order was quite unambiguous, the ones which exist in every occupied area namely, first of all, the Securit Commission for order, as was quite common in occupied areas, and, secondly, the SD Commission, namely, the report about the morale and the situation in the fields in which I have mentioned, and, thirdly, orders which resulted from the liaison with the Army, and which came from the Army. That is, from the harvest down to the front assignments; so that there were possibilities gain some merit in other fields. Especially, if the fact applied that the individual concerned had distinguished himself in combat, this was always important for such recommendations.
THE PRESIDENT: Shall we take our recess now, Dr. Gawlik. The Tribunal will be in recess until 1:45 P.M.
THE MARSHAL: The Tribunal will recess until 1345 hours.
(The Tribunal recessed until 1345 house, 18 November 1945) (The Tribunal reconvened at 1345 hours)
THE MARSHAL: The Tribunal is again in session. BY DR. GAWLIK:
Q Before the recess we discussed Document No. 2969 in Document Book III-D, page 50 of the English, page 84 of the German, Exhibit 162 - the recommendation for promotion - and you made a statement about the promotion. Please tell the Tribunal why this recommendation for promotion was made during the war, and on what it was based. always depended on whether the person concerned had proved himself well in the assignment at the front.
Q Did this apply to you as well?
A Yes, this applied to me. Repeatedly I had opportunity - ment at the front?
A If I may give an example concerning this: By orders of the Eleventh Army, Major Stephanus -- he was a general staff officer -I took part in the recapture of the locality of Feodosia. It is on the southern coast of the Crimea. The Russian troops had landed there, had recaptured the city, and had advanced towards the road to Simferopol. I was engaged in combat during the recapturing of the city, upon the order of this Major, and also owing to other assignments against partisans, and against troops who had landed - troops constantly landed throughout the entire coast of the Crimea.... owing to all these assignments, but in particular the assignment near Feodosia, the Commander in Chief of the Eleventh Army, General Field Marshal von Mannstein gave me the Iron Cross as a distinction for special merit. For that reason it can be explained that another recommendation for promotion which is also contained in this document may have had a quite different basis
Q I beg your pardon, witness, which document are you referring to?
DR. GAWLIK: It is in Document Book III-D, Your Honor; Exhibit 162, No. 2969, page 50 of the English text. 1941. At that time, after I had already been in Russia for five months it was stated as follows as the foundation for the promotion: "Seibert is permanent deputy of Gruppenleiter III-D, Economics Department in the RSHA, and has proved himsefl worthy in every respect." It is mentioned at the end that I was informed in writing. I also explained it by the fact that all my assignments at the front took plane between January 1942 until about May 1942. special merits are mentioned - were you promoted after that?
A No, I was not promoted. The qualification apparently was not sufficient. I was promoted a year later.
Q I now come to another point. When did you return from Russia? of June 1942.
A Where were you active after that? in the Economics Group. after you returned from Russian until the end of the war? year of the wax, 1944, I became Gruppenleiter Economics myself.
Q Were you deputy of the Office Chief of Office III?
Q Who was the deputy of Office Chief III?