A. I assume so, because otherwise we would have moved into that slaughterhouse.
Q. And there were butcher platoons of other units?
A. Yes.
Q. Did it come to your attention that at Zhitomir Jews were employed by the Baker Company?
A. No.
Q. Can you say with certainty that no Jews were employed there, or didn't you know it?
A. Of course, I can not say that for certain, because the Baker Unit was located in the same building, but they were located in a different wing of the building.
Q. Did you ever see any Einsatstruppen in operation, or did you hear anything about them?
A. No, I neither saw them nor did I hear anything about them.
Q. Not during entire campaign?
A. Later on during the Russian campaign they were talking about it.
Q. When did you hear about them for the first time?
A. I can not say with certainty any more, but I assume that it must have been in the year of 1941 and 1942.
Q. However, you are certain that during the first part of the campaign you did not hear anything about the Einsatsgruppen, and you did not see anything of them?
A. No, I did not hear anything about them, nor did I see them.
Q. Material in the form of testimony has been submitted here about the fact that relatively a short time after you passed through that area, Jews the execution Jews to a considerable extent were carried out. Do you know anything about that? Did you hear anything about it at the time?
A. No.
Q. Did you hear anything at all?
A. No.
Q. Did you gain any knowledge of the fact that before you reached that area, the reconnaissance troops had already carried out the executed of Jews?
A. I do not know anything about that either.
MR. STAKELBERG: Your Honor, I have no further questions.
THE PRESIDENT: Any other questions by defense counsel? The Prosecutor may cross examine.
CROSS EXAMINATION BY MR. ROBBINS:
Q. Witness, did I understand you to say that you heard of only two lectures that Tschentscher gave?
A. Yes.
Q. Is that all that he gave?
A. I can not recall any other additional one.
Q. You would have heard of additional one if he had given them, wouldn't you?
A. Yes.
Q. When were you in Zlotzow, witness?
A. I can not recall the exact date any more.
Q. Can you remember the year?
A. Well, it was when we marched into the area there in 1941.
Q. It was around the 1st or 2nd of July, wasn't it?
A. I can not say that any more, I don't know the date.
Q. You came in with the first troops, did you not?
A. Yes.
Q. Did you see a citadel in Zlotzow?
A. Yes.
Q. Did you see dead Jews lying around in the city?
A. The street which came from Lemberg, on that road there were many corpses and there was much material and army trucks and weapons, and things of that sort. In the city itself, I did not see any corpses.
Q. Did you go up to the citadel?
A. No, I did not go to the citadel.
Q. How close to the citadel were you?
A. We billeted ahead of the citadel, for one night, it was a distance between the citadel and us of between eight hundred to one thousand meters.
Q. How long were you there in Zlotzow?
A. It was only for one night.
Q. And you did not see any dead Jews lying around the street in Zlotzow, or anywhere in Zlotzow?
A. No, I did not see any in the streets.
Q. Did you think that you would have seen them if they had been there?
A. Yes.
Q. You say you heard of the Einsatzgruppen around the end of 1941?
A. Yes, I can not give you the year precisely any more, but I know I heard of them later on, but I don't even want to make an approximate guess at the time.
Q. Can you imagine any reason why you and several other smaller men of the SS should have heard about the Einsatzgruppen in Russia, and a man such as the defendant Fanslau not having heard about them?
A. I can not imagine that.
Q. Everybody knew about it, didn't they?
A. As I have said before, I can not say any more precisely when I heard about these things for the first time, it might been later on, I only know of one occasion I heard something, namely that some groups were using them in order to assemble Jews and in order to take them to the concentration camps.
Q. But you did not hear at any time in the East about any kind of mistreatment of the Jews.
A. No.
Q. And the Viking Division never used any Jews for labor purposes?
A. No, so far as I know they never used them.
Q. Did you see any Jews working any time while you were in the East?
A. No.
Q. Did you ever see a Jew while you were in the East?
A. Yes, we passed the cities where many Jews were residing. I can recall one place, I don't know the name any more, we passed through there, and there were a lot of Jews in that place.
Q. They were all quietly residing there. They had not been disturbed in any way?
A. No, since they were running around in their long dresses, pictures were taken of them.
Q. That was all that happened there?
A. Yes.
Q. Just a few pictures were taken?
A. Yes.
Q. When did you join the Allgemeine-SS?
A. In May 1933.
Q. When did you join the Nazi Party?
A. I can not tell you precisely any more. I believe in 1936 or 1937.
Q. Do you remember your Allgemeine SS number?
A. I can not recall that exactly any more. I believe it was somewhere around two-hundred thirty-one thousand.
Q. Do you remember you Waffen-SS number?
A. I did not have any number in the Waffen-SS.
Q. When did you join the Waffen-SS?
A. On 1 September 1939.
MR. ROBBINS: I have no further questions.
DR. STAKELBERG: Dr. Stakelberg for the defendant Fanslau.
BY DR. STAKELBERG:
Q. Witness, when did you say that you heard for the first time about Einsatsgruppen?
A. I have stated before, I can not recall the year precisely any more, only know I head something about it, it may have been as late as 1944.
Q. Do you know when the defendant Fanslau left the Division Viking?
A. No, I can not tell you that.
Q. It was at the end of August 1941. If was the end of September 1941, I believe. During that time did you hear anything about the Einsatzgruppen?
A. No, I did not hear anything of them during that time.
Q. Do you know when the defendant Tschentscher left the unit?
A. No.
Q. He left approximately on 21 November 1941. Did you hear anything about the Einsatzgruppen at that time?
A. No, it must have been much later.
DR. STAKELBERG: I have no further questions, Your Honor.
THE PRESIDENT: Mr. Robbins, will you furnish us with copies of Exhibit 637. I just have the one copy, which probably will should go with the original. It is a translation of the reading matter in the magazine, Document NO-1805.
MR. ROBBINS: Yes, Your Honor, Should I furnish the Tribunal also with a copy of letter from Berger to Himmler, concerning the distribution of it, or will the reading in to the transcript be sufficient.
THE PRESIDENT: That will be sufficient. Now, how do we stand for witnesses and testimony? Are there any more witnesses to be offered by the Prosecution?
MR. ROBBINS: Possibly one additional witness to the incident at Tarnopol and Zhitomir. We are trying to contact another person who was working in the slaughterhouse at that time.
THE PRESIDENT: Do you know where the witness is? He is immediately available?
MR. ROBBINS: Yes, if we have time at all, he will be here by Tuesday.
THE PRESIDENT: And that will conclude the Prosecution's proof, will it?
MR. ROBBINS: Yes, Your Honor.
THE PRESIDENT: Now the defense?
DR. STAKELBERG: Your Honor, I had offered a number of witnesses, and they have been approved. This was the Divisional Commander Steiner, has been located and he is expected to arrive here any day now. The same thing applies to the former deputy of the defendant Fanslau, Martin Meier, Standavtenfuehrer. We were expecting to locate the former adjutant of the defendant Fanslau Stollhor, and the former driver of the defendant Fanslau, Wohlert,but did not succeed. Egon Egler, and Dr. Pohl I have withdrawn; in the case of Dr. Pohl, because Otto has concerned, and Egon Egles, as his knowledge is not very important in this trial.
THE PRESIDENT: Well, then, you may have two more witnesses.
DR. VON STAKELBERG: I hope I can call two witnesses for certain, Your honor.
THE PRESIDENT: Dr. Pribilla?
DR. PRIBILLA: One.
THE PRESIDENT: One more witness. What about documents? How many hundred thousand documents will have to be offered yet?
MR. ROBBINS: For the Prosecution, Your Honor, I have six document books. I think, altogether, there are about 60 or 70 documents. There are six books, but all of them are quite small.
THE PRESIDENT: When will they be ready?
MR. ROBBINS: They will be ready Tuesday morning. I can start offering some now, as a matter of fact, if we have time.
THE PRESIDENT: All right, but let's take further inventory, however. Dr. Pribilla?
DR. PRIBILLA: I have heard that my document book has been translated now. It contains only 20 documents and will take only several minutes to take care of it. I request the Tribunal that, by virtue of this presentation of evidence, I may submit some more affidavits later on.
THE PRESIDENT: Well, how much later on ?
DR. PRIBILLA: I already have the affidavits here by several members of the Companies. They have only to be translated yet, and I believe we shall be able to do that by the middle of next week.
THE PRESIDENT: We are very anxious to close the proof in this case this coming week, and before the end of the week, if possible.
You will bear that in mind.
DR. PRIBILLA: Your Honor, I shall submit these affidavits on Tuesday or Wednesday. I am afraid only that they can not be translated so quickly and assume that this might take eight or ten days until they are translated. I do not place any emphasis on reading them here orally.
I ask you to consider, on the other hand, that my presentation of evidence was concluded two months ago and that I have seen a new presentation of evidence here about the military activity of the defendant Tschentscher. In this connection, I want to introduce a few more affidavits.
THE PRESIDENT: As long as you do not wish to read them, Dr. Pribilla, the Tribunal can receive them at any time. Dr. von Stakelberg?
DR. VON STAKELBERG: Your Honor, I have just heard from Mr. Ponger that my colleague Bergold intends to call three additional witnesses from Wewelsburg. I don't know anything about it, but I want only to make this known here because my colleague Bergold is absent at the present time.
THE PRESIDENT: Well, Dr. Bergold asked for the approval of three witnesses, which he wasn't sure he would need. He said contingent or possible witnesses.
DR. VON STAKELBERG: Your Honor, with regard to the question of the documents, I would like to say that I have already submitted my document book, and I have only a very few additional single affidavits which I shall submit at the appropriate time.
I am certain that this can be done in the course of next week. It will take up only very little time.
THE PRESIDENT: All right. Dr. Haensel?
DR. HAENSEL: For quite some time I have submitted a document book, about two months ago perhaps, which must be translated, and I also turned in one affidavit which has not been translated yet. As soon as it has been completed, I will submit it here.
Then, in the document book which has not been submitted yet by the Prosecution but which has been announced -- I believe it is No. 25 -- there is an affidavit by Georg Loerner which was deposed, before Loerner came to Nurnberg. I believe he gave it at Oberursel. It must have been submitted a long time ago, but it is being introduced only now. The question now is whether this affidavit of Loerner's in his own case will still be accepted now; otherwise, I would like to ask some additional questions of him about it. If this affidavit is not introduced, this will not be necessary. If, however, it should be introduced, then I should have the opportunity because during the examination of Loerner in the witness stand, the Prosecution had this affidavit in their possession, but they did not introduce it.
MR. ROBBINS: With regard to that, the Georg Loerner affidavit, I should like to say the following: We did not have the affidavit in our possession at the time. We would have offered it then if we had. It was taken, as Dr. Haensel says, at Oberursel under an entirely different agency not connected with the Office of Chief of Counsel, and it just came into our possession recently.
THE PRESIDENT: Well, if there is anything in the affidavit which needs to be met or to be refuted, you will have a chance to do that, Dr. Haensel.
DR. HAENSEL: Then, with regard to the question of the probative value of the publication which has been submitted now, I would like to call an expert witness, and I suggest that Fritsche could be examined here for about half an hour. It would take only a very little time.
THE PRESIDENT: What do you propose to have him testify to?
DR. HAENSEL: He is to testify that the publication, "The Sub-Human Being", which has been introduced here was a work which was not distributed at all. The agency which issued it intended it to be used as propaganda literature, but it did not have any effect whatsoever.
THE PRESIDENT: You say it didn't have any effect. You mean it was not distributed?
DR. HAENSEL: The attempt was made to distribute it, but these things met such a general resistance that this was not possible.
THE PRESIDENT: Well, if we have time, Dr. Haensel, you may offer that proof.
DR. PRIBILLA: Your Honor, I have understood that the Prosecution intends to submit five or six document books during the coming week. I hope that no special surprises will be contained anymore in these document books, but I would suggest that the defense should also be given an opportunity to refute these affidavits briefly in some form or other.
THE PRESIDENT: Well, how do you know that you want to refute them? You don't know what they say?
MR. ROBBINS: May it please the Tribunal, I think Dr. Pribilla probably does, because they were distributed yesterday morning.
THE PRESIDENT: Well, all right.
MR. ROBBINS: I don't think there are any surprises.
THE PRESIDENT: These two points I want to make: First, there must be no delay, no time lost when we have nothing to do. This program from now on must be continuous. Second, we are fixing a terminus for it, not to the exact minute, but we want all proof concluded, preferably by Thursday of next week, certainly not later than Friday, and if things begin to drag, be prepared to spend some evenings in the courthouse. The next week will be the last week of the evidence, be it night or day.
The next three minutes will be the last three minutes that we'll llse. We'll take the next three minutes, however, and adjourn until Tuesday morning at 9:30.
THE MARSHAL: The Tribunal will recess until 0930 hours, September 2.
(Whereupon, at 1630 hours, 29 August 1947, the Tribunal recessed until 0930 hours, 2 September 1947.)
Official Transcript of the American Military Tribunal II in the Matter of the United. States of America against Oswald Pohl, et al, defendants sitting at Nurnberg, Germany, on 2 September 1947, 0930-1630 hours, Justice Roms presiding.
THE MARSHAL: Persons in the courtroom will please find their seats.
The Honorable, the Judges of Military Tribunal II.
Military Tribunal II is now in session. God save the United States of America and this honorable Tribunal.
MR. ROBBINS: May it please the Tribunal, I should like to offer some rebuttal documents at this time, if it is convenient with the Tribunal and Defense Counsel.
Will the Secretary General give me the next exhibit number?
THE SECRETARY GENERAL: 640.
MR. ROBBINS: I should like to offer the documents in Book 27 at this time. It concerns the construction of the WVHA and contains a number of blueprints.
JUDGE PHILLIPS: That is the only one we have now, that you have given us?
MR. ROBBINS: That is correct, Your Honor, I am about to give you some more. These have already been distributed.
I believe that Document Book 26 has been distributed in German to the Defense Counsel, and it contains a number of exhibits which were marked for identification. At this time I should like to give Book 26 in English to the Tribunal. At this time I should like to offer in evidence the documents in Book 26, which contains exhibits 620 through 634.
I think that there was a question about the fourth document in the book, which was Himmler's address on the day of Metz. At the recess I will bring the original document here and show it to Defense Counsel. It is a book of Himmler's speeches and contains a good many of the notations and writings of Himmler in his own handwriting, which, I believe, will authenticate that document.
In Document Book 27, which concerns itself with construction matters and contains a number of blueprints, I should first like to offer the first document in that book, NO 4343 as Prosecution Exhibit 640. It is dated 1937, in October, and is signed by the defendant Pohl and is offered to show that Pohl's organization at that early date dealt with construction matters in the concentration camps. It deals with the construction of a tailor workshop at the concentration camp Buchenwald. He is arranging for the grafting of funds for building the workshop at Buchenwald.
DR. VON STEIN (Counsel for Defendant Eirenschmalz): Your Honor, I want to object to the admission of this document for the following reason: This document was described only as an unofficial copy. This is only a draft, and whether this draft was ever sent out cannot become evident from this document. I therefore do not consider this document to have any probitive value.
THE PRESIDENT: Which document are you talking about, Dr. Von Stein?
DR. VON STEIN: This is the first document in Document Book No. 27, Document 4343. I request, Your Honor, that the original copy of this document should be produced so that we can see that there is actually an original of this document in existence which was sent out. Above all, we want to know who dealt with this matter, with this draft.
THE PRESIDENT: Do you want to see the original?
DR. VON STEIN: Your Honor, it cannot be seen from this draft whether the letter itself developed from this particular draft. It is only signed here by Pohl, with his initials. There is another initial here, but it cannot be seen whose it is. In the form that this document is presented now, I do not consider it to have any probitive value, because it is just a draft.
THE PRESIDENT: Well, it is more than a draft because it contains an initial and a note in handwriting. The only question is whether it is Pohl's initial and his handwriting.
MR. ROBBINS: I think the important point here, if the Tribunal please, is not whether this draft was ever sent out, although it appears that it was approved by Pohl, but, rather, that the document shows that at that early date Pohl was concerned with construction matters in the concentration camps.
THE PRESIDENT: It isn't valuable as a communication to somebody else, but merely as a statement by the defendant Pohl himself as to the scope of his authority?
MR. ROBBINS: Yes, Your Honor.
THE PRESIDENT: Do you dispute the initial, Dr. von Stein the letter "P" at the bottom of the letter?
DR. VON STEIN: Your Honor, after all, I have only one interest in this document. I want to see whether my client, Eirenschmalz, has anything to do with it, and I assume from this draft that the other file note apparently stands for an "S" and not for my client. I am not interested in any other way in the presentation of this document.
THE PRESIDENT: Well, you don't claim that this is binding on Eirenschmalz, Mr. Robbins, do you?
MR. ROBBINS: I don't claim that the initial is that of Eirenschmalz A subsequent document in this book states, over Pohl's signature, that Eirenschmalz was in charge of construction at this time. However, I do not claim that he ever saw this particular document.
THE PRESIDENT: Well, with that statement the document will he admitted.
DR. VON STEIN: Very well, Your Honor.
MR. ROBBINS: I next offer the second document in the book, No. 4444 which according to the legend on the document, is a building plan for the concentration camp Buchenwald. The writing down at the lower right hand corner reads, "Regarding KL Buchenwald", and below that, "double crematoria oven." The diagram in the upper left hand corner is a cross section, and in the second of the diagrams is a longitudinal section, and in the upper right hand corner a diagram of a coal burner.
The diagram in the lower left hand corner is the view of the crematoria from above-from below.
THE PRESIDENT: From above, it is the view from above--a bird's eye view, not a worm's eve view.
MR. ROBBINS: This will be Prosecution Exhibit 641.
The next document, 4445, I offer as Prosecution Exhibit 642. This is a blueprint of the crematorium at concentration camp Buchenwald and it is Buchenwald, Sachsenhausen, and is drawn up by the VerwaltungsamtSS. We have not been able to make out the signature. It is an SS Sturmfuehrer. It is under the legend, "Verwaltungsamt-SS, Construction Office."
THE PRESIDENT: This is before the WVHA, of course?
MR. ROBBINS: That is correct, Your Honor. The defendant Pohl was the Chief of the Verwaltungsamt-SS at this time, and, as a later document will show, the defendant Eirenschmalz was in charge of V-5, the Construction Office, at this time.
I, next offer No. 4446 as Prosecution Exhibit 643. This is also a plan of the crematoria at the concentration camp Buchenwald.
THE PRESIDENT: Is there anything to indicate where this plan was drawn up or found, to connect it with the SS Building Office?
MR. ROBBIN'S: The subsequent documents letters, I believe do that, Your Honor.
I next offer the letter which is No 4353 as Prosecution Exhibit 644. This is a letter from Riedel of the Verwaltungsamt-SS, Construction Office, addressed to Eicke, at that time Inspectorate. The subject is approval for material to build the crematorium for Buchenwald concentration camp, and he is requesting approval for construction funds. He states that plans and estimates are included in the letter.
Still a part of that document is a letter from Eicke to the Chief of the Verwaltungsamt-SS, who is Pohl, dated 21 June 1938, and Eicke says, "I request approval for construction of a crematorium for the Buchenwald concentration camp.
With the increased strength, there are death cases almost daily, which must he taken care of by the city crematorium in Weimar at state expense. In order to save the Reich money and also for political reasons, I request you to approve this requisition."
THE PRESIDENT: What are you reading from? I don't follow you.
MR. ROBBINS: That is at the bottom of the Document 4353, letter from Eicke to Pohl.
I next offer 4364 as Prosecution Exhibit 645. This is still dealing with construction matters at Buchenwald, and Riedel writes to the Chief of the Verwaltungsamt-SS, who is Pohl, requesting authorization for building material for the erection of five temporary prisoner barracks at Buchenwald concentration camp. He says that; "Four thousand prisoners will arrive within the next few days."
THE PRESIDENT: Tell me again who Riedel was.
MR. ROBBINS: As it shows above his signature, he was an officer in the Verwaltungsamt-SS, in the Construction Office.
THE PRESIDENT: Well, he was attached to Buchenwald, wasn't he? He wasn't in the Main Office?
MR. ROBBINS: The witness Karl testified that he was in charge of the construction at Buchenwald, and he was attached or subordinated to the Main Office.
THE PRESIDENT: Well, he was one of the construction men that were assigned to the various camps, as shown by a document?
MR. ROBBINS: That is correct.
THE PRESIDENT: But he was still an officer of the Central Building Office?
MR. ROBBINS: That is correct, as his signature shows.
It is interesting--although this is no evidence--that the only large scale program that occurred between the date of this letter and some subsequent time was the Jewish pogrom on 11 November 1938, and again this is no evidence, but Mr. Ponger, who was then an inmate at Buchenwald at this time, says that these buildings, barracks, were used for the inmates, Jews, who were herded into the concentration camp in the Jewish pogrom of November 1938.
DR. SEIDL: (Counsel for Defendant Pohl): Your Honor, if the Prosecution intends to prove anything about this, they through Panzer should call Panzer into the witness stand. I object, however, to the document being used in the way it has been so far by the Prosecution--to the way they try to make use of them.
MR. ROBBINS: The purpose for which it was used, I think, has no bearing, and I will withdraw the remark.
The next document shows that it was to be used as an inmate barrack in Buchenwald.
The subsequent document, 4365, I shall offer as Prosecution Exhibit 646. It is signed by Riedel and contains an estimate for the erection of the five inmate barracks at Buchenwald.
THE PRESIDENT: Document 4366--is that the one you are talking about?
MR. ROBBINS: 4365, Your Honor, Prosecution Exhibit 46.
THE PRESIDENT: Well, you didn't comment on 4366, the teletype letter.
MR. ROBBINS: I haven't come to that, Your Honor.
THE PRESIDENT: Oh, very well.
MR. ROBBINS: The next document, 4366, deals with the same matter. I offer as Prosecution Exhibit 647. This is a teletype from the defendant Frank to the Construction Division of Buchenwald, and he says that the amount of RM 12,000 for the erection of emergency barracks has been authorized. Also a part of that document is -- I believe that the last part of this document is just a repetition of the first part.
The next document is also signed by the defendant Frank and deals with the same subject matter. That is NO 4780, which I offer as Prosecution Exhibit 648. It is file memorandum, stating that Buchenwald will receive an additional number of about 6,000 prisoners and that the sum of RM 12,000 has been made available.
The next document --
DR. FRITSCH-(For defendant Baier): Your Honor, in the document which has just been read, the name of Baier is mentioned. May I ask Mr. Robbins whether he identifies the defendant Baier with this?
MR. ROBBINS: I am sure this is not the defendant Baier. Where is that name? There was a Baier at Buchenwald. Baier also signed this document. It does not appear on the English copy. Only Frank's signature appears on the English copy, but it is not the defendant Baier.
The next document, NO 4400 I offer as Prosecution Exhibit 649. This also deals with Buchenwald concentration camp and is from Grimm, who was in the Construction Management Office at Buchenwald under the Main Office, Budget and Building. This deals with the immediate precursor of the WVHA. The preceding documents have dealt with the Verwaltungsamt-SS, and this document deals with the Main Office, Budget and Building, which immediately preceded the WVHA.
JUDGE PHILLIPS: That was '40 and '41, was it not?
MR. ROBBINS: Yes, your honor, until some time in 1939, until the WVHA was established in 1942. This letter deals with an emergency crematorium and is addressed to the Main Office, Budget and Building, attention of SS-Haupsturmfuehrer Riedel.
The next document, 4401, I offer as Prosecution Exhibit 650. This is also signed by Grimm and is a building description of the crematorium at Buchenwald, referred to in the previous document. He states that "As a result of the high mortality rate in Buchenwald, it has become necessary to erect emergency crematorium." The last sentence in the document reads, "The construction is in response to the order of the Chief of the Main Office, Budget and Building, of 9 and 11 December, 1939." The Chief of that office is, of course, the defendant Pohl.